Page 1 of 4 1234>
Topic Options
#13563 - 10/28/08 08:48 AM Universality principle/Why government sucks.
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Previously I described the universality principle, which basically states 'If it isn't ok for me, it isn't ok for you'. This is not an absolute rule, but rather a set of constants consistent with human empathy and behavior ethics.

Most would agree they would not like to see a murder, robbery, or rape take place in their neighborhood. Such an event strikes directly at our sense of security and safety, which if Maslow is to be believed is right below breathing and eating on the scale of human needs.

Along these lines, it would also be wrong to kidnap someone. Nobody wants their freedom taken from them, not I, not you, not anyone. (this of course excludes the 'willing captive', but since it is willing captivity it isn't really captivity!)
If it is wrong for someone to kidnap me, the same thing that makes it 'wrong' in my mind makes it wrong for me to turn around and abduct another against their will. This is common ground not only for the human animal, but pretty much all animals. Try to corner a raccoon and see what happens!

This has been the state of human society for a very long time. Even christianity absorbed this principle to convert into their 'golden rule' (which even the good old Doktor advocated to the point of being 'crossed'), but like most christian ideas they kept the bare bones and left out the meat, the rational, behind it.

So assuming you are buying any of this, lets move on to my main point. If it is wrong for me to go to your house and take you at gun point, why is it ok for a small group of elitists to do it? If it is wrong for me to shoot and kill those that speak or act against my interests, why is it ok for a select few? I guess what I'm asking is, why do we take a seemingly universal principle of ethics and pretty much throw it out with regards to only one small group of people? How did this exception obtain the air of legitimacy?

I, as you have undoubtedly have figured out by now, am talking about agents of 'government'; ie that small group of people that claims dominion over you, me, and all the land we inhabit.

With this said, and for the reasons stated, I feel that no government can be legitimate, ethical, or moral unless it does not operate by coercion. This unfortunately excludes every last one of them and is one of the more prominent reasons I am an Agorist/Anarchist.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#13862 - 11/04/08 04:26 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dan_Dread]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Let me ask you this: if there is no "small group of elitists", then who's job is it to collect the people who go against what it seems you agree to be cardinal rules of human society?

I will agree that the government has gotten way too busy-body, but I find it ridiculous to say that we have no need of a modicum of policing. We're not talking about sparse populations of family groups foraging for food, here. We're talking about a nation of millions of people living one atop another, and while I do consider myself to have bigger balls than a lot of men I know, I really don't want to spend my days defending my home and family from the criminal element, some of which is held in check only by the understanding that there are clear cut punishments for things they may want to do.

Not to mention the fact that if you were to commit a crime against my family and your anarchist utopia were reality, I can assure you that you would still be dragged from your home by gunpoint.

I would like to have a better car. If I find a single person with no family and I kill them and take their car, who punishes me for that? Do I get away with it if no one cares enough about that person to take up for them, or if they are afraid of me? Seriously, what in the hell are you saying here?

And trying to compare humans to animals is ridiculous as well. Yes, a cornered animal will attack, but I have yet to meet an animal that is going to murder another animals Grandma, dissect her into 84 pieces, and piss in her eye sockets before snatching her pension check and setting her house on fire.


Edited by ceruleansteel (11/04/08 04:28 PM)
Edit Reason: animal comparison

Top
#13941 - 11/05/08 08:12 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Let me ask you this: if there is no "small group of elitists", then who's job is it to collect the people who go against what it seems you agree to be cardinal rules of human society?

Collect the people? I've read this three times and I can't make heads or tails of this question. I will say though I have no problem with elitists. I DO have a problem with ANYONE, be they elitists or not, being able to, under the guise of legitimacy, violate my basic rights to life and property. It isn't that I think my 'rights' are immutable, I just think that were I to strike back against these violators in kind I would be equally legitimate in doing so.
 Quote:

I find it ridiculous to say that we have no need of a modicum of policing.

Do you think a monopoly of force is the only workable way of distributing 'protection'? (what you really mean by policing)
Things as a rule generally work better in a market situation.
People are always going to desire safety, and so long as that desire exists so too will the market provide.
 Quote:

I would like to have a better car. If I find a single person with no family and I kill them and take their car, who punishes me for that? Do I get away with it if no one cares enough about that person to take up for them, or if they are afraid of me? Seriously, what in the hell are you saying here?

I would imagine some sort of contract driven dispute resolution organizations would arise to fill that niche. There have been elaborate theories created on the subject of stateless justice.
Read here for a short primer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_resolution_organization

 Quote:

And trying to compare humans to animals is ridiculous as well.

Humans are quite obviously animals. We are certainly not vegetables or minerals. My comparison was quite valid because the example I used (the desire for freedom) is a universal among almost all mammals. Your statement about humans being percievedly more vicious at times is really not related to my point in any way. Even if it was, when is the last time you saw a man eat his baby alive shortly after it is born? I would say this is equally 'brutal' as your given scenario and is commonplace within the animal kingdom.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#13976 - 11/06/08 12:32 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Let me ask you this: if there is no "small group of elitists", then who's job is it to collect the people who go against what it seems you agree to be cardinal rules of human society?

Hmm, if you are expecting a simple answer I'm afraid I can't give you one. First of all there is no such thing as an "elite" person/group. It is some way you perceive things. Go to an elite group or an elitist, he will have the same opinions hobby's and toughts as any other person. The only thing that differs is the fact he is more "skilled" in a certain field in comparisation with other people. The person or group itself may lable himself as "normal" while others call him "la creme de la creme".



 Quote:
And trying to compare humans to animals is ridiculous as well. Yes, a cornered animal will attack, but I have yet to meet an animal that is going to murder another animals Grandma, dissect her into 84 pieces, and piss in her eye sockets before snatching her pension check and setting her house on fire.

Give me an example where we humans differ from animals. As far as I am concerned humans and animals are all the same. The only thing is that we have more intelligence to use against each other. But then again, we all are fueled by prime instincts.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#13977 - 11/06/08 12:33 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dan_Dread]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Touche, Dan. I enjoyed the ass whipping you just gave me.

By "collect", I meant physically rounding up the "bad guys".

I apologize for not being clearer on my human-animal thing. When I said it, I was thinking about a human's ability to consciously commit crimes. If an animal eats it's young, there is a reason behind it whether it be overcrowding, the baby is not viable, or whatever. I know that humans are animals. I admit, I fucked that one up a bit...

I'm going to check out your link, because I'm clueless as to how a "contract driven dispute resolution organization" would handle the Grandma scenario.

Top
#13978 - 11/06/08 12:39 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dimitri]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Hmm, if you are expecting a simple answer I'm afraid I can't give you one. First of all there is no such thing as an "elite" person/group. It is some way you perceive things. Go to an elite group or an elitist, he will have the same opinions hobby's and toughts as any other person. The only thing that differs is the fact he is more "skilled" in a certain field in comparisation with other people. The person or group itself may lable himself as "normal" while others call him "la creme de la creme".


The wording that I chose was used solely to relate my comment back to the original poster in his own words. I do not personally consider police and such to be elite.

Top
#14456 - 11/15/08 10:37 AM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: ceruleansteel]
Venux Offline
Banned-Troll/Idiot
stranger


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 11
Rule is suck!!
Who need the rule!!
Break the rule. Find your freedom. Live your life!!
Just break to free!!
You're liying if you don't hate the rule.
Life comes with
no guarantees, no time outs, no second chances.You can
never get back.
This is your own life. Life is yours. don't let anybody disturb your way!!
so, just do what you want, do as you will.


Edited by Venux (11/15/08 10:41 AM)

Top
#14459 - 11/15/08 11:01 AM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Venux]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
Hmmm, interesting thing you happen to write down here.
So you are claiming we don't need rules and that every rule "sucks"?
Let me put it this way; if there were no rules you'd probably hadn't a good life right now.
You see, freedom is something nice to dream about and to say when you are in a war. Nothing is nicer to say you are fighting for freedom. Only problem is, what is freedom? Haven't you already achieved it in your own mind? For thus far the philosophical approach.

 Quote:
You're liying if you don't hate the rule.

Lying about what? "The rule" is quite vague. It can mean anything, you should be more detailed about that part. I can make up I must hate the rule that says to me I have the right to work and study. I don't hate it, I love that rule, it makes me able to earn some money, get smarter let humanity evolve, etc. Pretty good in my opinion..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#14464 - 11/15/08 12:08 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dimitri]
Venux Offline
Banned-Troll/Idiot
stranger


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 11
First I want to say hi 'cause we meet and meet again in two topics
________________________________________________________________
Posted by: Dimitri
I can make up I must hate the rule that says to me I have the right to work and study. I don't hate it, I love that rule
________________________________________________________________

So, if I give you a rule that you must study twenty hour per day with the reason to make you the genius person, do you love my rule?
C'mon you hate it right?
This rule will make you boring and do insane thing like I told you before.
Do you know why? 'cause the reality humand don't want to be ruled, human just want to break free, and cannot change this natural appetite.


Edited by Venux (11/15/08 12:11 PM)

Top
#14467 - 11/15/08 12:49 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Venux]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
So, if I give you a rule that you must study twenty hour per day with the reason to make you the genius person, do you love my rule?
C'mon you hate it right?

Really, studying something doesn't maky my mind change it to hate. And if it makes me a genius I'd happily agree with it and study it maybe even longer then 20hours a day. This to be sure I get the full perspective of it.

Rules are everywhere you know, you can't break free from all rules. If you think you have it is just a mere illusion. If you take a point of total perspective; you'll notice you will need rules to keep yourself in order. Just like the law of nature: "eat or be eaten". It is something you just have to obey and can't break out of it.
I'm not saying all rules are positive, to be honest; there are some who bore the crap out of me, but without them we wouldn't have established our society nowadays. Altough I'm not very keen on today's politics. To much gibbering and brainless toughts and too less straight-forward action.

Maybe a slight hint, spellchecker could be usefull. It is "humans" or "human" not "humand". Slight chance you have another language then English?
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#14473 - 11/15/08 01:30 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Rules come even when you least expect them. To Venux's mind, a rule is a terrible thing... so he makes a rule that if there is a rule it must be disobeyed or hated.

Rules are sometimes naturally occuring features of existence, as Dimitri points out. EAT OR BE EATEN is a rule that if ignored, leads to starvation at best and being the victim of predation at worst. You can't avoid it.

It's also a "rule" that people must either learn or they don't thrive. They may LIVE, and they may FUNCTION, but they don't do very well amongst a world of creatures who learn and adapt and use their knowledge to their benefit. True, ignorant people can make a living in the world, and we need ignorant people as grease for the gears of economy and servitude, but they stratify themselves in maintaining their ignorance, wondering why others and not themselves "make the rules."

There are some people who are happy to live the life of ignorant bliss, and that's fine. No one should drag someone up to be better than they wish to be. But the majority of thinking individuals always look for that "better something" that they must strive to reach. And they recognize and honor the rules that can get them there, even though they might not always agree with them.

Rules are what you make of them.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#14474 - 11/15/08 01:38 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dimitri]
Venux Offline
Banned-Troll/Idiot
stranger


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 11
________________________________________________________________
Quote:
It is "humans" or "human" not "humand
________________________________________________________________
I guess human is right, isn't it?
________________________________________________________________
Quote:
Slight chance you have another language then English?
________________________________________________________________
Honestly you're right, I have another language

One think that you should know, I have the same opinion with you, "If i ever meet god, he will disappear in a puf of logic"

Top
#14475 - 11/15/08 01:50 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Venux]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Venux
________________________________________________________________
Quote:
It is "humans" or "human" not "humand
________________________________________________________________
I guess human is right, isn't it?
________________________________________________________________
Quote:
Slight chance you have another language then English?
________________________________________________________________
Honestly you're right, I have another language

One think that you should know, I have the same opinion with you, "If i ever meet god, he will disappear in a puf of logic"

Would you kindly quit shitting all over my thread with your pigeon English streams of consciousness?

If you have something to contribute, cool. Do you even understand what the topic is about?

It doesn't seem like it.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#14476 - 11/15/08 02:12 PM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Venux Offline
Banned-Troll/Idiot
stranger


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 11
________________________________________________________________
Quote:
Would you kindly quit shitting all over my thread with your pigeon English streams of consciousness?

If you have something to contribute, cool. Do you even understand what the topic is about?

It doesn't seem like it.
________________________________________________________________

Fine, and thankyou for your kind word

Top
#14572 - 11/17/08 04:16 AM Re: Universality principle/Why government sucks. [Re: Venux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I think I agree with what you are saying Dan. What gives the government the right to have secret squirrels out there 'taking out' people they have decided are a threat to 'society' (although more likely they are a threat to 'government' first if not foremost.

I don't think that many people here would think they do have that right. I would think that there are many on this forum that don't agree with secret agendas or agencies.

Secrets lead to corruption. How do you think your perfect society (not having a go, just using it as a term of reference) would deal with corruption? Would it be ok, because those that can afford to buy their way will? Because it would be inevitable that it would happen? Wouldn't it? And who would be there to make sure that it didn't happen. There will always be those that crave power and will do anything to get it. They will therefore be very susceptible to corruption.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
Page 1 of 4 1234>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.028 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.