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#13723 - 11/01/08 01:32 PM Self Ownership.
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I own my body. The ego that is my self, that strange effect of consciousness that is resultant itself from the physical body, owns the physical body.
Seems a strange concept, but it is very important. This is something that should be observed by anyone that values their own freedom.

Economist Hans-Hermann Hoppe argues that self-ownership is axiomatic. His reasoning being that any argument against self-ownership is self-contradictory. Making this argument is making a "performative contradiction" because, in choosing to use persuasion instead of force to have others agree that they are not sovereign over themselves, that person is implicitly granting those who he is trying to persuade the right to disagree. If they have the right to disagree, then they have legitimate authority over themselves.

If you own yourself, you own your labour. If you own your labour, you own the fruits thereof. Any claim on any of these things is a defacto claim of ownership upon your person.

I think self-ownership is the cornerstone of meritocracy, the very mechanism through which one is granted the right to flourish or whither. If you own your actions, you by proxy also own the consequences and responsibility for said actions.

More to come!
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#13726 - 11/01/08 01:49 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Posts: 1724
Loc: New York
You know, I've been trying to convince the IRS of this for years. They just don't get it. ;\)

On a serious note, how would you explain this to someone who is physically enslaved?


Edited by Asmedious (11/01/08 01:50 PM)
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#13728 - 11/01/08 02:07 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I suppose I could answer that by saying I do not recognize things like the IRS or slavery as legitimate. I see them as things to stand as adversary to, and that is really the heart of the matter.
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#13753 - 11/01/08 09:14 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Ones, if I may, who are physically enslaved are first mentally enslaved. I cannot recall the term for the condition right now, but it is similar to battle fatigue.

Take for example, the school that was held hostage in Russia. These hundreds of people were held hostage for days by nothing more than a handful of people. They were so dicouraged by the sudden circumstances that they lost the will to fight. This crowd could have easily overcome the hostage takers yet remained in their control until law enforcment freed them.

It's the sense that they lost their self ownership and unconsciously handed themselves over to their captors.
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#13783 - 11/02/08 01:46 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: blsk]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I'm not sure if you can consider people who were taken hostage and made no measure of attempt to free themselves as having lost their sense of self-ownership. Maybe they were just scared for their lives. I'm sure the captors were armed therefore it didn't matter to the hostages that they had the numbers. The instinct for self preservation is one of the strongest and most deeply ingrained in all intelligent life. It is really easy to tell people what you would do in such a situation. When you are actaully put in that situation,however, you might not react the way you thought you would. On the other hand such a situation could make a person feel powerless. The feeling of having no control over a situation could be akin to that of loss of self-ownership.
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#14987 - 11/28/08 02:31 AM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jaguar Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 24
Loc: OR, Multnomah
Wow! Dan! You need to learn some basic skills in typing and speech. Do you enjoy priding yourself by living on an island of your own?
RESULTANT is a great word but you can't type "my self" as "myself" correctly. I think you mean't AFFECT not EFFECT, big difference, not to be a dick about it, just pointing out a flaw in your typing and I am by no means a english grammer person. I suck and english grammer. I really suck bad at english grammer honestly. Affect fits your term better then effect. hmm... I could go on.
If you have intelligence and skill with typing, you would learn how to convey a message that speaks to the community, rather then to yourself.

Maybe you simply lack communication skills. No problem. Take some English lessons!!!!

Communication is a powerful skill for only intelligent people who can deliver the message. I wish I could have a better response to your note, but I imagine it would be difficult for any Satanist to respond to a message based on a riddle of conflict. Stop making an ass out of yourself.

Cheers!
Honestly, I had to look up some words you used to even follow what you said, my conclusion results in the above. Speak to yourself I guess is your point. Maybe I am the fool, but I am certain after looking up your words that you are a total fool.
Stop. Who the fuck really follows what you said? Well take care. Speak straight to the community or don't speak at all!!!!


Edited by Jaguar (11/28/08 03:14 AM)
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#14994 - 11/28/08 09:09 AM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Jaguar]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
but you can't type "my self" as "myself" correctly

There is a differentiation between these two ideas in English. Since this is not your native language, it's easy to see why you do not see the slight variation between "my self" (objective), and "myself" (subjective).

 Quote:
I think you mean't AFFECT not EFFECT, big difference, not to be a dick about it, just pointing out a flaw in your typing and I am by no means a english grammer person.

As used in Dan's sentence:
 Quote:
The ego that is my self, that strange effect of consciousness

EFFECT: a verb meaning “have an influence on”
AFFECT: to make a display of or deliberately cultivate.

You state that you are by no means an English grammar person (by the way, you spelled "grammer" wrong, and there is no apostrophe in "meant" Mr. Know-It-All), yet you presume to tell the original poster what his own words mean? Dan used "effect" correctly, it is you who are in the wrong.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, and have made yourself look like both a dick and a fool. Congratulations! Dan wouldn't still be here if we thought he was incapable of expressing himself in an intelligent and forthright manner. You on the other hand, raise some doubts about whether you can do the same. Your reply to Dan was little more than a pathetic attempt to cut him down using your incorrect interpretaion of English grammar. Try using a spell check on yourself.
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#14995 - 11/28/08 09:10 AM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Jaguar]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What's your problem mate?
Do a couple of errors trouble your emotions that much that this is the only thing you can come up with after reading his post or is there some lack of content in that great mind of you and the best you can produce is this banter?

Or are you maybe some sort of a nancy and instead of spilling the beans, you prefer to show your dislike at another level.

Feel free to check my posts, I'm pretty sure you can come up with a couple of errors in at least 50% of the replies. Then feel free to mention it to me and watch how I shove my foot up yer ass.

Thanks,

D.

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#15003 - 11/28/08 12:45 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Jaguar]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
This is pure comedy. You think I need english lessons because you don't possess the language skills to understand me?

I will not dumb down for you, or anyone.

Good Day.
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#15022 - 11/28/08 02:40 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Originally Posted By: jaguar
I think you meant AFFECT not EFFECT, big difference, not to be a dick about it, just pointing out a flaw in your typing and I am by no means a English grammar person. I suck and English grammar. I really suck bad at English grammar honestly.

If you can't, why correct others? Learn the grammar to yourself first before criticizing people.

To get back on topic;
Self-ownership, pretty interesting topic actually.
We indeed own ourselves. But within this social and economical environment, don't we sell ourselves to the big industrials to get a fee for our doings? Can we still say we own ourselves when we work for someone else who is getting paid for our doings, results we achieved? And we only get a small fee to survive in this economical society.
As far as I can say, we certainly own our ideas and thoughts. But owning our entire body could be a whole different thing.
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#15029 - 11/28/08 03:09 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm in the contract biz, so you can't be more of a rental whore than me and although I do think I am my own property, the moment I sign a pact with ze devil, I am his property. At the level of work that is. So as long as things go as pre-defined, I am a slave but a well-paid one. I think my self-ownership stops during those hours. This doesn't imply he can treat me like a slave.

About ideas and thoughts, I doubt if we own them. I cherish the illusion yes but realistically it is perfectly possible our ideas own us.

D.

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#15030 - 11/28/08 03:23 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I don't think a mutual contract such as employee/employer or contractor/contractee implies a submission of self-ownership simply because these are voluntary relationships.

A more concrete example of why we don't actually own ourselves in this society is our relationship to government, which is not voluntary or mutual. An argument could be made for a sort of implicit 'social contract', but to me that is bullshit. I did not ask to be born under the rule of my oppressors nor is leaving to go live under a different set of oppressors a real option.
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#15031 - 11/28/08 03:25 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
About ideas and thoughts, I doubt if we own them. I cherish the illusion yes but realistically it is perfectly possible our ideas own us.

How come you have doubts about it?
Maybe to clearify things up a little:
When I speak about ideas or thoughts I'm referring on what we think.

For example: You see a very attractive young girl/boy marching by. However other friends of you start call her ugly. The idea she is attractive to you is something personaal and you can decide if you share it with your environement.
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#15032 - 11/28/08 03:28 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't know. If I rent a car, I do own it for a certain period of time. It is not my property but I am allowed to act as such for a while. I think the same goes for labor. It's not total submission, I agree upon that. I am still free to think my employer is a twat.

Government is different yeah but so was slavery. The place you are born or the period of time defines a lot.

D.

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#15033 - 11/28/08 03:33 PM Re: Self Ownership. [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
A part of what you think is rooted inside your brains or culturally defined. If I find her attractive, there are physical factors that make her appear attractive that are beyond my choice. If she's looking very unhealthy, odds are I won't find her attractive at all, other aspects increase attraction. Many are beyond my control, even when realizing them.

Other ideas that I might consider my own might actually own me. The ideas we have are mostly all 'borrowed' so we are subject to what we are exposed to. You very likely aren't going to come up with brand new stuff, at best recycled. The fact that some of them are that strong that we feel an urge to share them or make others embrace them, can be an indication that ideas own us instead of we them.

D.

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