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#14086 - 11/09/08 12:18 PM Haunts
Chelsea_Grin Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Atlanta, GA
A curious question....
If Satanists don't believe there is an afterlife, does that mean they don't believe in ghosts/spirits/hauntings? Because if there is no afterlife, we just die. Nothing happens to our spirits. Personally, I believe a great deal in all things haunted. But I do not believe we go to a heaven or a hell. I believe that after we die, there is an energy left behind by us that certain people are more in tune to than others.
Does this make me a hypocrite of sorts?

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#14088 - 11/09/08 01:27 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Chelsea_Grin]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The question of 'what happens to us when we die' is actually pretty silly if you really think about it. Why does death have to be the yardstick?

What are 'we' if not a collection of genetic predispositions and memories/experiences? If there is no spirit, and there is no tangible reason to believe there is, it really boils down to this.

So what happens to a man whos mind is claimed by Alzheimers, or is struck by complete amnesia? Where does he 'go'? Where does a 'sleeper' in a life long coma 'go'?

Where does the flame of a candle go after you blow it out?
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#14089 - 11/09/08 01:29 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Chelsea_Grin]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Well, as far as I'm concerned believing in an afterlife/ideas after you died is something personal. I didn't really came across answers about this subject in any LHP-document as far as I remember. So I think you are free to have your own opinion about it where no one can proof you wrong.

Well, about ghosts/dead spirits it is almost the same thing. Uphere there are people who believe in them, and there are others who doesn't. In my own opinion: there may be some degree of probability the may exist. But I wouldn't be someone who will claim/reject the idea. I simply don't know and don't care. I'll learn it if i'm dead, and that will be probably the last lesson anyone will learn here.
Also, if indeed they may exist I find it quite rude to disturb them. Let them rest in peace, why should we bother them with our questions if we shall receive our answers by simple logic thinking..

Your opinion doesn't make you hypocrite. Even so, if someone disagrees with you and calls you hypocrite you have the right to kick him/her in the ass. Your vision fits your personal universe and not someone elses.
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#14094 - 11/09/08 02:01 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Dimitri,

Try as I might I just can't imagine how such a 'faith' as you describe can co-exist in the same mind claiming a religion of 'doubt'. It reminds me of that classic star trek episode where Kirk makes the evil computer explode by making it realize the contradictions in its logic.
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#14097 - 11/09/08 02:16 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dan_Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
There may or may not be some kind of "energy" left behind when we die, since many argue, that energy doesn't disappear, but instead changes form. Ok, I might be able to go with that.

However, the point is, that even if there is electical energy floating around, or heat energy; whatever, when someone dies, conciousness is gone. In other words, there is no realization of "self" anymore. At least, that is what I believe at this point. If that is the case, then what does the rest matter?

Just to play Devils Advocate however, in response to what happens to Alsceimers patients; according to some..ahem "Psychics," they are sort of asleep in their own bodies, while at the same time are aware of what is going around them, just have no control over it. Riiiiiiiight.
On the other hand, I work with a population of patients, who never had any reasoning capabilities to begin with. Basically, they eat (as long as we feed them), deficate, and make noises. Not much to go on there really, but I'm sure the "Psychics" have an answer as to what is going on with their "Spirits" as wel
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#14098 - 11/09/08 02:25 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
As an aside I know for a fact what is described as 'paranormal' is in fact a reality. I have undeniable personal experiences to that effect. Honestly it is these experiences that ultimately lead me to use the label 'Satanist' rather than not. There is definitely something else, a supernormal element.

What bothers me is when someone takes that and tries to attach all sorts of connotations and assumptions to it, such as assuming these things are the manifestations of dead people. I personally think it is far more likely that people 'create' these apparitions, much as they form brief psychic 'links' under situations of high stress/duress.

It all ties in to the Satanic idea of greater magic, in that context it makes quite a bit of sense. Our collective understanding of the brain, and its fuzzy electric side effect, the mind, is still quite primitive.
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#14099 - 11/09/08 02:32 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Dimitri,

Try as I might I just can't imagine how such a 'faith' as you describe can co-exist in the same mind claiming a religion of 'doubt'. It reminds me of that classic star trek episode where Kirk makes the evil computer explode by making it realize the contradictions in its logic.

Quite simple actually. My mind is a bit scientifique coordinated. To me everything can be possible even the most contradictions actually can make sense if you put them in their right perspective. You only have to take all the things you can imagine into account and start working out how high each "probability-factor" is. The higher this factor, the more it is probable to happen. In a case such as this I have no reference to work it out so I take it into account it might be possible. And like I said, I will never claim to behold the truth about this matter simple because I don't know just as most living people do. Only catch is no one wants to admit their ignorance about this kind of matter.
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#14101 - 11/09/08 02:38 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well certainly there exists a whole range of probabilities and possibilities in all things, many solutions end up being counter intuitive.

But to hold a belief without any supporting evidence is faith, and faith is the antithesis of doubt. I once read somewhere that holding one false belief is the beginning of all unwisdom.

There is a great distinction between being open to possibilities without concrete evidence, and believing in one of those possibilities without any concrete evidence.
At least to people that care about what is true.
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#14103 - 11/09/08 02:57 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
But to hold a belief without any supporting evidence is faith, and faith is the antithesis of doubt.

This will sound as RHP-crap and white lighted bullshit but;
isn't faith one of the aspects we are still alive apart from thinking logically?
You know, most seem to forget this, but ignoring faith because there is no proof is actually also a form of idiotism/ignorance.
Sometimes it can fill up holes when feeling a bit down. For example if my grandmother is seriously ill and the doctors say there is a small change she can't make it I prefer to have some faith she will heal altough the facts are quite dark. You must take everything in perspective. Faith can be a good thing (and probably is used by everyone, yes even amongst satanists check your personal life about it..). But do never forget the facts against it. Faith can help you to look at things clearly altough you know the some things are proven to be very dark.
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#14108 - 11/09/08 03:24 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
True, we do have some level of "faith" in terms of hope, as well as trusting in the ability or authority of others. It is essential to living a human life.

But to put "faith" into things like spirits, afterlifes, deities, etc, doesn't seem very useful. Yeah, it makes for some entertaining theorizing, but what's the use in putting any serious thought into something so ultimately unknowable and detached from reality?
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#14112 - 11/09/08 04:09 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Equivocation, the favorite tactic of the apologist. I am not calling you an apologist, you probably don't even realize you are doing it.

Faith is often equivocated, as it has a very abstract definition. The apologist will equivocate faith to such things as trust and hope. But faith, hope, and trust are all separate and distinct things. And religious faith is something different yet again.

Religious faith, which could also be defined as 'superstition', is quite separate from hope, which is what you are talking about.
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#14118 - 11/09/08 07:56 PM Re: Haunts [Re: Chelsea_Grin]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I personally can not totally dismiss this idea of spirits. I have had "experiences with the supernatural". So if I were to say that I don't believe it is possible; I would be lying to myself. There is the possibility that those experiences were manifested in my own mind, but I doubt it. Maybe one of the experiences but not all of them. My imagination just isn't that active.
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#14138 - 11/10/08 08:56 AM Re: Haunts [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think that the idea of spirits, ghosts or any afterlife remnant of a supernatural nature is based upon ignorance upon some subjects.

I don't think you can use a double standard when it comes to things. If you dismiss god on the evidence or non-evidence presented, you should, logically, do the same when it comes to spirits or ghosts. Both have the same arguments and evidence or lack of evidence and I don't see why one would be favored a different conclusion.

A large part of the whole afterlife idea comes from the belief in soul. We do seem to have an identity that feels like unique. In the old days, people prefered to think we are of a dual nature; body and mind. As if our body was nothing but a vessel for the mind and not completely dependant upon it.
Science now can nicely explain how an epiphenomenon like our "I" arose from our brain. If you're interested in more knowledge upon it, I suggest checking out Daniel C. Dennett who wrote amazing insights upon this. Our consciousness is restricted to our brain and subject to it and we do know that what affects the brain does affect our consciousness or identity. Brain trauma or even degenerating diseases or aging processes prove that there is no duality and that the one is connected and affected by the other.
So, if our brain stops functioning when we die, and it sure does, we will lose our consciousness and with it our identity. The idea that our indentity can untie itself from our body at that stage is not only simplistic, it's also a bit ridiculous.

So many people grab the last straw and that is energy. I'm willing to agree that our heat will be absorbed into our environment, as it does on a daily base but besides that, I do not see a surviving powersource that will transfer into something else. If we plug a microwave into a powersource, we see it containing energy when activated but did anyone ever wonder what happens to the energy when we unplug it? We don't create grand ideas of magnetic energy transfers into some shady dimension. Neither has anyone ever reported to be haunted by evil microwaves. Still, there is very little difference between a human and a microwave. As long as we are connected to a powersource, and stay activated, there can be energy measured inside us but once we become unplugged our body stops producing the energy. To grab this as a last straw of surviving death seems silly to me. To assume that lost energy somewhere transcedents what happens in nature all the time is also silly.

Reality is cold and brutal, or so it might be perceived, and maybe the very fact that we are blessed or cursed with abstract thinking -due to our specialisation- triggers some subconscious fear for the unavoidable realisation that one day it is all over. Life might seem futile in this light but I think that for a satanist, this is the real strenght. The very fact that this is our only option makes us realize that we need to get the best out of it and that betting on a second chance or some improbable continuation is nothing but a waste of time.

D.

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#14139 - 11/10/08 09:33 AM Re: Haunts [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Religious faith, which could also be defined as 'superstition', is quite separate from hope, which is what you are talking about.

I have doubts about it, but: are you saying I held a religious faith? Because surely: I didn't speak about it nor do I hold one.
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#14140 - 11/10/08 10:26 AM Re: Haunts [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
It's almost a societal imperative that people should feel that SOMETHING remains of them and others after death. After all, we ARE human... we ARE the dominant species on the planet... we ARE. Well, yeah, we ARE. But so were the dinosaurs and whatever the hell was around before them. We don't give much more than a passing nod to other creatures and think that there's another whole spirit world of Fidos and Fluffys and Fred the goldfish out there in spirit because we're smarter than that. Well, most of us are. Talking to some of the new agey types will give you a headache.

I find comfort in the fact that when I'm dead, I'm dead. It keeps me honest. Too many people fall into the "It'll be better in the next life" trap. The next life = reason for failure. When you give up the whole Karma schtick and simply deal with what is in the here and now, your life gains a whole new meaning...think about it.

If you KNOW this is it, your one great chance to live, are you going to waste it, or are you going to consciously take every opportunity to experience what life has to offer? Are you going to go through life with your eyes wide open, or are you going to allow yourself to slip into an alcoholic or drug induced miasma? The belief in "afterlife" or "sprit existence" allows for the "next life" does little more than offer an excuse... I'll get it right NEXT TIME.

I can't speak for everyone else, but in my life, I know "There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!" It forces me to know that my actions matter on a day to day basis, because for good or ill, this one life is all that I have. I can make conscious decisions. Do I want to do A or B, and whichever I choose, am I willing to accept the consequences for my decision?

I'll agree. There are things "that happen" that we can't explain. Some people see ghosts and spirits... I never have. My father was a mortician, and I've been around a lot of bodies. Never saw one thing that was unexplainable. I've seen corpses move, twist, fart, and groan. Mere physiological changes in the state of the corpse due to muscle contractions or the natural release of gasses within the body. I've been to "haunted houses," where people swear that there are unearthly manifestations. I seem to always be there on the spirits' day off.

There can be a degree of comfort in the belief of one's spirit or consciousness lasting beyong the grave, and it can be somewhat disconcerting to some to realize that they are, after all, just another animal with different intellectual and phyiscal capabilities from Fido and Fluffy... but that part of the human condition that allows us to make the most of our lives. It's what makes us US. I prefer to live in the here and now for as many years as I have, getting fewer all the time. What good is an afterlife if you aren't going to use the one you have?

And if we're wrong and there IS something else... BONUS. But I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
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