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#14495 - 11/15/08 07:03 PM So What's the Difference?
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
Well I've read the Satanic Bible...So here's what I'm debating: If you read the good old Judaic-Christian bible it's a pretty dark force that the Hebrews worship. It does have quite a few restrictions but all those restrictions can be exempted if one is called by "god" to do god's will. The bottom line with the Christian and Hebrew teachings is obedience. The dogma of the Christian view is that god is such a narcissist the only way to forgive man for any sin is to sacrifice what the Hebrew god love's the most which is Jesus, go figure. What sin is however changes over time. Jesus supposedly said a man can have only one wife but he never set any limits to how many concubines a man could have. Others have the opinion that fornication or adultery is any sex outside of marriage and is inclusive of having sex with love slaves. However a concubine is a relationship that is very different than just having sex with a girl or boy friend.

In the end the Hebrew god is dark; killing anyone or planning to kill anyone that he sees as a stupid un-loyal ingrate. To call his hand for your own objectives falls in the same line as LeVey's rules for casting spells for wealth, love, revenge and health; it's only within a practical scope of the individual. That being the case then why do I need god or Satan to help me do what I can already do? I believe the answer to that is it helps me visualize my goals and focus my mind, after which dark forces take over. So asking for a miracle or blessing is similar to casting a spell.

Could what everyone believes to be god really just be the same guy, inclusive of Satan?

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#14500 - 11/15/08 08:08 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Hi.

We tend to avoid spending to much energy on the whys and wherefores of Judaism and Xianity.
Or for that matters; the writings of the good Herr La Vey.

Your point being that both bear similarities?
Very clever...

If you have a more than rudymentary knowledge of Xianity, you will now that Jehova is Satan etc.
God gave a damn, so to speak...
Not exactly a new thought.

We are more interested in Satan as an archetype of non-xian meaning and origin.
Older & newer stuff, y'see.

Anything new to bring to the table?
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#14515 - 11/16/08 02:56 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Woland]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
By new do you mean a definition of Satan as a spiritual entity or a physical force?

Also do Satanist believe in a creation?

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#14521 - 11/16/08 06:01 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
Woland Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
By new do you mean a definition of Satan as a spiritual entity or a physical force?


Whatever...


 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
Also do Satanist believe in a creation?



A creation of what?
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#14522 - 11/16/08 07:28 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
DistroyA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
I think they meant "creator".

 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
By new do you mean a definition of Satan as a spiritual entity or a physical force?

Satan is neither a spiritual entity, nor a physical force. Satan is just basically a name that Satanists (Or at least myself anyway...) use to describe the forces of nature, and not a horned god. One could say that they are God and Satan all in one, for man is both good and evil. Everything is both good and evil, depending on one's perception.

So, in short, there is no deity to believe in. The only thing you should believe in is yourself. Ignore the bible and other clap trap and make up your own mind about what is and what isn't.

As for LaVey, he didn't create "rules" to follow, only guidelines. It's up to the individual to determine what is right and what is wrong.
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#14529 - 11/16/08 01:52 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: DistroyA]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Well I've read the Satanic Bible...

And judging by the rest of your post(s) it obviously didn't resonate with you. You should probably move on.
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#14535 - 11/16/08 02:40 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
By new do you mean a definition of Satan as a spiritual entity or a physical force?

Also do Satanist believe in a creation?


Let me answer these questions for you.
1) Everyone has it's own definition for the aspect "satan". Some people see it as a mere force of nature and/or the real human nature wich keeps us species alive. Within this philosophy satan isn't a living being/creature/spirit. To get the full perspective of Satanism you should look up the different types of Satanism. Each "branch" has it's own philosophy and ideas.
To give some mainstream branches: devil-worshippers, gnostic Satanism, laveyan-Satanism, theistic Satanism,.. if you look up these 5 branches you'll quickly get a bigger perspective about Satanism. But a little word of warning; uphere we have some kind of respect towards some theistic satanists. But most here are more laveyan philosophy bounded and theistic/gnostic Satanism doesn't diserve much respect for some reasons. But you'll find out why.

2) If satanists believe in a creation? Ofcourse they do, everyone does. Some see it just as a force in nature without deity that created us trough evolution. Some believe in some kind of force wich created us. Some maybe believe in a more creational approach. It really is something personnal you should make it up for yourself. I have my ideas about it, and others their. Just keep in mind no one holds the truth on that matter simple because we can't know or because we weren't there and no evidence wich is universally correct can be found.
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#14536 - 11/16/08 03:25 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Woa hold on there tex!

First, there are no branches of Satanism. That's just something that people that don't get it say. Devil worshippers and all those other nuts you named aren't 'types' of Satanists, they are nuts.
Equivocation isn't your friend.

Second,
 Quote:

If satanists believe in a creation? Ofcourse they do, everyone does. Some see it just as a force in nature without deity that created us trough evolution. Some believe in some kind of force wich created us. Some maybe believe in a more creational approach.

This is pure bullshit. I personally find the steady state theory to be as reasonable as any other theory we have. Saying that a creation is necessary and that all Satanists must believe in one is not only false, but shows you don't have much of a grip on science.
Please do not put words into other peoples mouths.
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#14537 - 11/16/08 03:43 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
This is pure bullshit. I personally find the steady state theory to be as reasonable as any other theory we have. Saying that a creation is necessary and that all Satanists must believe in one is not only false, but shows you don't have much of a grip on science.
Please do not put words into other peoples mouths.

Hmmm, better read thoroughly.
I also said "you should make it up for your self. It is a personnal view". Before jumping on your horse and crying your psychological universe has detected a blow of "false information" you better read it with more attention. I leave it open what others believe. If you believe in steady-state, fine for you. I didn't say creation is necessary, I only said erveyone has it's own opinion about it. Things as "don't have much of a grip on science" are out of order here. Only shows who really is the ass... But Let's keep it polite and not flame each other shall we?

 Quote:
First, there are no branches of Satanism. That's just something that people that don't get it say. Devil worshippers and all those other nuts you named aren't 'types' of Satanists, they are nuts.
Equivocation isn't your friend.

In your opinion they may be nuts. (Don't get me wrong, neither do I share the opinion theistic /gnostic Satanism exists and think that it is dumbshit.) However from an objective point of view I must take in account there are people who call it Satanism. And if he is here to learn about Satanism it is best to start from a neutral point of view and then let him work towards a certain "branch"/"ideology" of Satanism. If someone asks advice it is better to give the whole perspective and not one-sided information.
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#14539 - 11/16/08 03:59 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
(Only shows who really is the ass... But Let's keep it polite and not flame each other shall we?)

-Seeing as how you just called Dan an ass, do you really want to avoid "flaming" or did you just want the last word?(and yes, it was a rhetorical question.)


(And if he is here to learn about Satanism it is best to start from a neutral point of view and then let him work towards a certain "branch"/"ideology" of Satanism. If someone asks advice it is better to give the whole perspective and not one-sided information)

-If he is here to learn about Satanism, it is best not to start filling his head with jibberish under the guise of Satanism. If someone asks advice it is best to give a reasonable and logical perspective. Any yes, it is one sided. The left.
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#14540 - 11/16/08 04:00 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Hmmm, better read thoroughly.

Ok.

 Quote:

If satanists believe in a creation? Ofcourse they do, everyone does.

Your words. Look, it isn't up to me to try to interpret what you actually mean by your broken english. I just assumed you meant what you said.

 Quote:

If someone asks advice it is better to give the whole perspective and not one-sided information.

I disagree. I think that steering people toward pseudosatanism is a bad idea. I think there are too many of those little poser fuckwads darkening the earth already.
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#14542 - 11/16/08 04:40 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Quote:
If satanists believe in a creation? Ofcourse they do, everyone does


I personally do not believe in creation. What reality is has always existed, notions of a beginning or end are nonsensical. However this is not to be confused with the creation and destruction of forms, e.g. a universe is a form, life is a form, sub-atomic particles are forms. Reality has no cause; it is what it is, but it is the cause of the creation of forms. I differ from the steady state theory in that what matter(form) is in our universe is not a consistent creation. Universes(forms) are created and destroyed and no two universes are identical types of forms.

Subtly sub-atomic particles are intelligent, e.g. The act of absorbing a photon changes the election's behavior. However the type of behavior is determine by the type of photon absorbed. Electrons seem to make decisions. They can tell if the photon they absorbed is an electro-magnetic wave or a carrier force and if it is a carrier force they can decide what polarity it is. So it would appear that intelligent processes in an electron do exist.

Of course the term intelligence does not necessarily imply a conscious will, it may only be an ability to interpret information and act on it, and I am implying the latter and I am also implyng that reality is the source of this intelligence.


Edited by frankinstien (11/16/08 05:26 PM)
Edit Reason: connected reality to intelligence

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#14545 - 11/16/08 05:34 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
What reality is has always existed, notions of a beginning or end are nonsensical.


Are you implying that an objective reality exists?
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#14547 - 11/16/08 06:43 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Woland]
frankinstien Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Are you implying that an objective reality exists?


No I am not. The intelligence of sub-atomic particles suggests forms are derived from reality as a product of emergent behavior of a fundamental nature of reality. What that nature could be is a matter of speculation, but as a fan of Occam's razor I prefer as few assumptions as possible. With that said what could possibly produce a varied and complex set of emergent behaviors and have as few assumptions required to define it?

One solution could be a reality of standing waves. As these standing waves interact with one another they re-enforce or cancel each other out. This is basically a very simplistic computation, 1 or 0. By itself not very impressive or powerful, but in mass could do quite a bit(pun intended). Employing ideas from Wolfram's cellular automation, chaos theory and self organization a non-objective reality of standing waves could produce a universe.

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#14548 - 11/16/08 06:44 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Woland]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I've always been of the opinion that the universe formed from the "big bang," a probably random occurence that might even be repilicated normally at certain times throughout the timelessness of "time," and then all else that flowed from that event is a result of chemical interaction and "simple do dah luck." Could that mean that man on earth is a singular event? Yes. Could that mean that the same, or varying interactions caused life on other planets throughout the universe? Yes. Does it have some great religious meaning for the existence of god and/or Satan? No.

Life finds a way to propogate, once established, and, unless totally anihilated in some extreme event, uses its established building blocks to rebuild again and again to produce a more viable creature in each incarnation of the universal (small "u"... relative to earth only) genome.

This incarnation of mamalian creature simply has the propensity to attribute things beyond its knowledge to "gods" and "devils." It's a flaw that may be eliminated in the next incarnation... roll the dice.
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