Page 2 of 6 <12345>Last »
Topic Options
#14550 - 11/16/08 07:30 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
In your opinion they may be nuts. (Don't get me wrong, neither do I share the opinion theistic /gnostic satanism exists and think that it is dumbshit.) However from an objective point of view I must take in account there are people who call it satanism.


And if I insist the sky is red, does that make it so? Because a small minority insist in calling their view of Satanism as such, does not make it Satanism. Your statement is wrong, and perpetuates the legitimacy of these idiots and their brand of "Satanism". Dan hit it right on in his response to you.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

Top
#14557 - 11/16/08 09:03 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: fakepropht]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Satanism is a philosophy that does not necessarily equate to hardcore Atheism. Agnosticism, yes, but there is a difference.

I don't care what they call themselves. Nobody has it perfect, and if they exhibit intelligence, independent thought, and an understanding of the aspect of the so-called "symbolic Satan" then I really don't care if they think it's a force manifested by a sumerian deity, a father god, or the flying spaghetti monster.

However, the vast majority of them are NOT these type of people. They're mostly young gullible kids who don't think for themselves. In rebelling against Judeo-Christianity and embracing "spiritual Satanism" they most often just trade in one set of irrational superstitions for another.

I wouldn't quite say it is a "denomination", because Satanism is still Satanism no matter how you present it.
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#14558 - 11/16/08 09:56 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Satanism is a philosophy that does not necessarily equate to hardcore Atheism.

This is a statement that is both true and false. From a pragmatic standpoint, we are autotheists, in that we draw all the deity we need from inside.

But from a cosmological perspective, ie the old external deity vs no external deity question, I don't see how a Satanist could be anything but atheistic. How could you put faith on the same plate as a religion with doubt at its center?

As for the term 'agnosticism', that is christian apologetics at it's finest. There is no good reason to create a dichotomy between 'god vs no god'. This is lending credibility to a meme that hasn't earned it.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#14559 - 11/16/08 10:22 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
On thing I've used to tell people how we see ourselves as "our own god," in the Satanic sense. is to look at the world in two camps. There are those who choose to look outside for answers... always to some power greater than themselves. We can call these people who are "outward facing." They constantly look for reasons that don't include or center on man and his responsibility for his life, things around him that affect his world, and other "reasons why" x, y, and z happen. Seldom will man be in charge or control of his life, and always at the whim of others (gods, fates or "THEM," who tend to make their life difficult.

The Satanist, in becoming his own god, is unlike the gods others cling to one's personal god (himself). He is an "INWARD facing god," looking within himself and what he is capable of, for answers to questions regarding his own life. He has no need for external or outward facing gods. They can tell him nothing that can't be explained by inward perspectives. There's no laying off of bad fortunes to the malevolence of some hairy thunderer who has it out for you. The insular nature of the Satanist tells him that bad things happen. They happen to you and the happen to me, and what matters is not so much HOW or WHY, but how we handle the situations presented to us, and how we turn them to our favor, not with the aid of gods and devils, but by our own brains and personal efforts.

Dunno if that will make sense to anyone...
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#14560 - 11/16/08 10:39 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
YES! Once again Jake swoops in with a gem of crystal clarity.

All other religions share in that they 'face outward', drawing power, guidance, wisdom, etc from 'out there' somewhere. Satanism is the ONLY path that reverses this trend entirely.

I think that is why I get so agitated when people try to justify outward facing, guidance seeking superstitious nonsense as 'just another type' of Satanism, when in reality it is anathema.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#14567 - 11/17/08 01:58 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Jake999]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Absolute sense.

That is exactly what I have noticed is the biggest difference between me and my born again christian friend.

She looks outward and needs to know 'someone' or 'something' loves her no matter what she actually pulls from inside herself to make life work for her.
We often talk about this subject and how when she talks of 'talking with god' I hear, talking with subconcious. That is probably why we don't fight about it.

When I talk about 'listening to my subconcious or bull shit detector as I like to call it' she hears' talking to God'!

We are both happy to let the other be wrong and think what they like, as long as the end result is that what we beleive works for us it doesn't matter. It just so happends that I look inwards.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
#14569 - 11/17/08 03:21 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
If satanists believe in a creation? Ofcourse they do, everyone does.


I am not too fond of the use of creation. Creation implies a conscious and deliberate process and nowhere I can find evidence of that when it comes to the universe or life. Personally I think the BigBang theory is the most probable, at least it got most evidence supporting it. All the others can be fine and spiffy but they lack a lot of evidence. The same for life, evolution is the theory that has a shipload of evidence supporting it, so I see no reason why not to consider it the most optional.
But those two at no point support creation of anything.

Everything happened by chance and nowhere is an indication of a conscious or intelligent factor messing with it. Creation is a label traditionally used by believers to insert god somewhere in the timeline and I personally see no reason to use it myself in that context.

D.

Top
#14573 - 11/17/08 04:28 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: ZephyrGirl]
frankinstien Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
She looks outward and needs to know 'someone' or 'something' loves her no matter what she actually pulls from inside herself to make life work for her.
We often talk about this subject and how when she talks of 'talking with god' I hear, talking with subconcious. That is probably why we don't fight about it.

When I talk about 'listening to my subconcious or bull shit detector as I like to call it' she hears' talking to God'!


A good book on the subject is called "Wings of Illusion" by John F. Schumaker

He argues though that the insanity of the invisible man or any other well formed or institutional superstitious belief system actually helps prevent a lot of the ills of modern society such as anorexia, bulimia, depression, drug abuse, etc. He states that religion is a certifiable form of insanity but it helps society become less insane. In a nut shell Shumaker describes religion as a reaction to the dawning of human consciousness that awoke in the dark and formidable jungle scared and confused...


Frank

Top
#14575 - 11/17/08 04:45 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
yussuf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Australia
 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
Well I've read the Satanic Bible........Could what everyone believes to be god really just be the same guy, inclusive of Satan?


there are types of Satanism and let me tell you why there are different types:

your belief is very personal and Satanism is one belief that you can mould yourself since it's very flexible...therefore people create a Satanism for them and than put it in a catagory that is different from others.

it is all about beliefs and you can't expect to know everything ^^ it's my opinion but someone will see it to be wrong but i'm atleast trying without using a bias view..so give me a break.. devil worshippers aren't nuts, don't be so ignorant those whack jobs were some of the few that help create the left hand path that some of us follow today.

believe it or not but the some of the documents that many occultists have seen and wrote books on are 600+ years old and back than theistic Satanism was big back than but not some much now since human sacrifices are illegal. just because someone follows a tamer version of the general Satanism doesn't mean you can rant on other types!

Top
#14577 - 11/17/08 05:03 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: yussuf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Since when is expecting to not know everything an excuse or reason for relativism?

Devilworshippers are certainly nuts at some levels because seriously, believing in the opposer outside the abstract realm is just as silly as believing in the creator himself. It's not because they are left of the path that it makes them more sane in that aspect. A devilworshiper or a theistic satanist is a believer and suffers the same weakness.

And tamer, hmm you really think peeing on a crucifix, reciting stuff backwards and sitting on their knees praying to Lucy makes anyone wilder? In the head maybe. In a decade or two they'll probably have medication for that.

Btw, I'd love to see some books, manuals or grimoires out of that period that provide evidence for theistic Satanism. Feel free to share.

D.

Top
#14582 - 11/17/08 11:09 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


Btw, I'd love to see some books, manuals or grimoires out of that period that provide evidence for theistic Satanism. Feel free to share.

D.


me too. there arent any. of the dozens of surviving grimoires, all are extolling the christian god in an almost fearful panic. these are mostly what the wingnuts are inversing and calling theistic Satanism.

i generally ignore theists, but the whimpering, mewing, completely subservient "father satan" bullshit wears on my last nerve. its creepy, weak, and borderline homoerotic.

dear theists. go back to church. join a bible camp. put your faith in something that will help you. Satanism is for thinkers. not followers.

Top
#14587 - 11/17/08 01:47 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: fakepropht]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
Got a point there fakeprophet, but this goes a little deeper and your example with colours aren't really scientifically spoken correct. You see, what we all call "green" or "red" in fact can have a different color depending on the working of our brain. hard to explain, and I don't suppose you will get it even if explained properly..

Anyway that's off-topic.
Let me put it this way: some may call inverted christianity Satanism, it doesn't mean YOU have to call it Satanism. You just have to take it in account some may call it Satanism. That's what I'm saying, so dan's point and yours after reading my post is just a mistake by wrong interpretation. I'll make it clear with an example.

Christianity has different forms, protestant, orthodox, Catholism,...
Let's take for example the orthodox people. They claim they are holding the truth. They are being ignored and called "false believers". Neither of the 3 wants to be linked to each other. But then if we take it to our point of view we just call 3 forms "Christianity". (I know it is wrong don't bitch on that part but it will create an image on what I said). Same goes for Satanism. You have laveyen, gnostic, theistic,... Laveyens say theistic and gnostic Satanism isn't "real Satanism". But looking from a christian point of view they will call it Satanism. End of discussion.
This time it is not about "true or not real". It is just about the different point of views on Satanism. That's what I'm saying. Got the point now?

 Quote:
I am not too fond of the use of creation.

And indeed diavolo, I better hadn't used the word "creation". Some people are getting bit crazy and stop thinking when they see that word.


Edited by Dimitri (11/17/08 02:08 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#14588 - 11/17/08 02:17 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Look Dimitri, it doesn't matter what christians think Satanism is or whom qualifies in their view because most people are too stupid to see the difference between a slayerfan, a satanist and a goth. Actually, anyone that can be identified as a satanist by mere looking at him should be clubbed to death with a sheep but that's beside the point.

It also doesn't matter what some gnostic, theistic, postmodern or jamaican satanist says he is coz most of them have no clue at all. Because they can't walk the talk they adapt the talk. Browse the internet and you'll notice what I imply.

It all matters what a satanist's view upon it is because that's the only damn thing that matters. A satanist talks the talk and walks the talk but knows it is more about values and living up to them than gibbering about theory.

But then we end at the riddle whom a satanist is and whom not. Laveyans pass the test because they are laveyan? Hell no, most of them adore it to such a degree I am surprised they didn't build chapels and burn candles at an 'Anton of Seven Sins' statue.
Satanist are:..., it's very vague I know but it's a case of you know when you know.
So there is only one kind and all the rest is whatever.

D.

Top
#14590 - 11/17/08 02:45 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Quote:
But then we end at the riddle whom a satanist is and whom not. Laveyans pass the test because they are laveyan? Hell no, most of them adore it to such a degree I am surprised they didn't build chapels and burn candles at an 'Anton of Seven Sins' statue.
Satanist are:..., it's very vague I know but it's a case of you know when you know.
So there is only one kind and all the rest is whatever.

That is what I'm saying the whole time. Or I have explained it clearly, or some people just can't read...
Anyway, I wasn't talking about the relationsships between the different sorts. Just saying he should look up the different types. I never claimed theistic or gnostic is "real". Only mentioned there are people who call it "real". And that you should take it into account there are such people. Is it that hard to gasp?
When I typed the whole explanation it was with the idea the man who asked the question got an objective view on Satanism. And to what sorts of Satanism there are in the world. As from a point of view from a "normal" person.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#14602 - 11/17/08 07:22 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Bacchae]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I agree with the concept of inward vs. outward divnity, although sometimes it's not as clear-cut with people hinging between theistic faith and satanic philosophy. But I do think that is the fundamental difference for most cases.

Overall, we have different standards as to what qualifies as "true Satanism", but that still doesn't change the fact that, as Dimitri said, there are many self-identifying Satanists with different perspectives on the issue- which overlap on a few basic premises. Most Satanists, for example, would agree on a philosophy based on thinking for oneself (of course most don't actually do this, but it's in the theory anyway), questioning the norm, and a rational pursuit of carnal desire. Even though it's still very wide and vague, if they follow this path honestly, then they're Satanists in my book. Of course, that's still open to further interpretation, and just my own perspective, which leads us right back to the beginning! Isn't this fun?
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
Page 2 of 6 <12345>Last »


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.029 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.