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#14619 - 11/17/08 10:30 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Dimitri,

 Quote:

That is what I'm saying the whole time. Or I have explained it clearly, or some people just can't read...

Lets get serious for a second here man. Your english is nowhere near good enough for you to be acting all indignant when people don't understand what you are supposed to mean.

 Quote:

When I typed the whole explanation it was with the idea the man who asked the question got an objective view on Satanism. And to what sorts of Satanism there are in the world. As from a point of view from a "normal" person.

Presenting a nugget of truth in a bucket of bullshit isn't being 'objective'. If you honestly think what those other guys are doing is Satanism, (as you must if you are presenting them on the same table as the real deal) then you probably shouldn't be answering questions about the subject under the guise of knowing what you are talking about. It's misleading.
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#14626 - 11/18/08 01:52 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
Re: frankanstein.

I sure hope that I'm just tired; but all I got from that post, is that I'm dumb as shit. No offense intended by the way, but damn, I feel I should be in a corner drooling on myself and playing with my toes. lol.

I really do need to start reading more science, instead of the Novels that keep me up at night.
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#14643 - 11/18/08 11:44 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Dimitri,

 Quote:

That is what I'm saying the whole time. Or I have explained it clearly, or some people just can't read...

Lets get serious for a second here man. Your english is nowhere near good enough for you to be acting all indignant when people don't understand what you are supposed to mean.

 Quote:

When I typed the whole explanation it was with the idea the man who asked the question got an objective view on Satanism. And to what sorts of Satanism there are in the world. As from a point of view from a "normal" person.

Presenting a nugget of truth in a bucket of bullshit isn't being 'objective'. If you honestly think what those other guys are doing is Satanism, (as you must if you are presenting them on the same table as the real deal) then you probably shouldn't be answering questions about the subject under the guise of knowing what you are talking about. It's misleading.

Hey, that's your opinion, I think you are talking bovine excrement as well, you can't hear me complaining.
And I never said I know what I'm talking about. That's something you just made up. Once again, read more thoroughly.
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#14646 - 11/18/08 12:09 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: The Zebu]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
Most Satanists, for example, would agree on a philosophy based on thinking for oneself (of course most don't actually do this, but it's in the theory anyway), questioning the norm, and a rational pursuit of carnal desire. Even though it's still very wide and vague, if they follow this path honestly, then they're Satanists in my book.


Which would include every nutbag standing on the corner with foil around their head and a sandwich board accusing the CIA of tapping his cranium for information. It would also include every polygamic Mormon. Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt should be a Satanist's icons. Very broad indeed.

A theistic or devil worshipping "satanist" does not think for himself. They have to run their decisions past the "Dark Lord" first. They get their information from "talking to the devil". They have to please and answer to a higher form. Sounds pretty much like Christianity with a different deity to me.
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#14649 - 11/18/08 12:39 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Dimitri, this is leading nowhere. Stating you don't know what you're talking is a very weird thing to say. It's as if I would jump into a debate, ramble a bit and then say, oh I know jack shit about this stuff, I haven't even got a clue what I am saying myself. That's a very weird statement.

Anyways, I'm all for providing a noob some anwers in this section but people joining here and posting stuff like: 'wot kind of satanists are there' and 'do satanists believe in satan' is a bit like a guy telling you he's hungry while there is plenty of food in front of him. He's just too lazy to pick it up himself and wants you to shove it down his throat.
Typing 'Satanism' in Wiki takes about 2 seconds and after a quick read, you know the basics, according to wiki of course.

So, we don't need to provide people with an objective, out of our perspective view upon it. If they're too lazy to do the effort, we should virtually kick them in the balls.

Let's drop the you didn't put my text below the microscope and analysed it well enough because it leads nowhere. We euro-trash are at times not as understandable as we think we are and the us-trash often writes a version of english that gives us goosebumps. Room enough for confusion.

D.

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#14651 - 11/18/08 12:44 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Dimitri, this is leading nowhere. Stating you don't know what you're talking is a very weird thing to say. It's as if I would jump into a debate, ramble a bit and then say, oh I know jack shit about this stuff, I haven't even got a clue what I am saying myself. That's a very weird statement.

Well you know.. it's something like "knowing yourself". I said "I didn't say I know what I'm talking about". This doesn't mean I'm saying I'm plain stupid. Just the fact I don't know everything.


Edited by Dimitri (11/18/08 01:08 PM)
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#14665 - 11/18/08 08:23 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dimitri]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Old religions, devil worshippers, reverse Xitans, Yedzies have been around for thousands of years. Long before Lavey took the term over and ran with it.

In Sir richard Burton diary from the late 1800, he calls the Yesdizs Satanists, he even gives example of their music. My copy is somewhere hiding in my house. In Layards book, Nineveh & Babylon from 1853, its the same thing (it's one of the book I am in the middle of).

In oriental Magic 1956 by syed Idries Shah, he mentions how cerain grimories are not available to westerner because they were never translated from Arabic. In his bibliography he lists a bunch of books that are not found in english.

Just because Modern Satanist do not believe in a "real" Satan verses an archtype idea, is no reason to denegrate the past history of the term. It was an old term meant to cause drama, and maybe its time for a new term, a new name/refernce point to show a more prominate difference between the past and presence uses of the terms satanist/ Satanism.

Morgan
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#14673 - 11/18/08 10:55 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hi Morgan,

 Quote:

In Sir richard Burton diary from the late 1800, he calls the Yesdizs Satanists,

Couple of things. First, well, you nailed it. An example of someone describing someone else as a Satanist. There are a lot of examples of this, as on this level being called a Satanist is more of a pejorative than anything. I think it is an important distinction to be noted between this and people describing themselves as Satanists.

Secondly, the Yezidiz weren't/aren't really devil worshipers in any sense of the word. Their mythology doesn't include Lucifer (Malek Taus) as an adversary or devil type figure. In fact they are said to get quite offended when referred to as devil worshipers/Satanists.
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#14686 - 11/19/08 03:08 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
It was an old term meant to cause drama, and maybe its time for a new term, a new name/refernce point to show a more prominate difference between the past and presence uses of the terms satanist/ satanism.


Satanism is an old form yes and in its time, and likely even now to some, the intention is to cause drama but probably more at an internal level than at an external. Shock, drama or psychodrama sets you free from certain patterns but after a while they lose their use or potential. It only has a limited use.

A couple of years ago I'd have supported getting rid of that flea-infested label and moving on but I don't see a better label or form. We could move along with society and pick another and stronger taboo but it would be too forced and too alienated from the basic values. The constant struggle when using satanist can be troublesome at times but that very aspect is in touch with our lives, which is also a constant struggle.
So even with all the shit surrounding it, I would not know a better form to use. And the better you know it, the more you can demystify it, the stronger it becomes, internally.

D.

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#14687 - 11/19/08 03:45 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Along with that, SATANIST isn't dilutable. You can have a Church of Jesus Christ with Signs Following (snake handlers), or Second Baptist Fellowship of Nazarene In Commune With The Spirit. They're simply terms that Christians use to divorce themselves from another like group with ideals they would either shun or amplify in their branch of the ever cleaving schism that is Christianity.

But we ARE Satanists. We're not Church of Satan, but more palatable because we call ourselves The Left Hand Fellowship of Christ. We're NOT a fellowship. We are simply what we are, and if that offends anyone, we tell them, there's the door. "Don't let it hit you where the good lord split you." It's not our job to "fit in" and blend with the sheep.
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#14688 - 11/19/08 04:03 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
Overall, we have different standards as to what qualifies as "true Satanism", but that still doesn't change the fact that, as Dimitri said, there are many self-identifying Satanists with different perspectives on the issue- which overlap on a few basic premises.


The riddle what makes a satanist a satanist has been debated here as long as I know and besides we all popping up some values on whom the majority of us agrees, we never came to a fixed definition upon it. It's a fairly complicated question what defines a satanist and when one is LHP or RHP.
I think it boils down to one simple word: control.

The left hand path is all about control while the right hand path is about surrender or submission. In the light of these two distinct words it is easy to make the division and put people in one of both categories. No matter how many similarities there are, the moment one aspect of you consciously dismisses control in favor of submission or surrender, you abandon the LHP.

D.

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#14703 - 11/19/08 08:00 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Response to last few posts...

"In fact they are said to get quite offended when referred to as devil worshipers/Satanists."

The thing I remember him mentioning that bothered them more was the use of the word satan/devil (?, I really have to find where that book is hiding). It was like if you use his name, he will hear you and pay attention to what you are doing and saying. I dont think he viewed it as a pejorative, I think it was just something he used to explain them, given the time and age that it was occurring in. He tended to be respectful of the various cultures he got involved in, and tried to fit in, and become friends. Otherwise I am sure he would have been killed before he did half the stuff he did. Sorry if I spelled the name wrong (Yezidiz), I should have paid more attention to that detail and not spelled it differently in 2 different sentences.

"The constant struggle when using satanist can be troublesome at times but that very aspect is in touch with our lives, which is also a constant struggle.So even with all the shit surrounding it, I would not know a better form to use. And the better you know it, the more you can demystify it, the stronger it becomes, internally."

This is very true, and I didn't quite think of it that way.

"But we ARE Satanists"

That was my point, there are variables, but all of the variables call themselves Satanists, and a lot of them predate Lavey.

"No matter how many similarities there are, the moment one aspect of you consciously dismisses control in favor of submission or surrender, you abandon the LHP."

So, control of self, and ones future makes you LHP, verses putting your self and beliefs in Satans/Xitans hands.

What about during ritual/psychodramas, when using an archtype to get over/accomplish a mental goal. Does that decision make you less on the LHP?

Morgan
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#14705 - 11/19/08 08:30 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
In the conduct of a psychodramatic ritualization, one is adopting the PERSONA of that emotion, or that archetype to examine its influences within himself or to display one's mastery over it. You are still who you are in everyday life, just living in a moment of suspended reality, as we do when we watch a movie in which we KNOW the things we are seeing on the screen are improbable, but we allow our minds to "go with it" for two hours.

For example, if I am a wolf of a man, I might become the sheep within the context of a ritual. Why would I do this? One reason might be that I can role play my "victims," so that I can know their minds better, having become them, if only vicariously. "How would I react to this if I were a sheep? I'd cower. I'd freeze. I might stand still while a predator approaches." It would be hard for me to be bold, unlike my normal life state.

In the ritual sense, you're giving up NOTHING as a Satanist to immerse yourself in the exercise, and you are gaining useful tools that you can use in life.

A real life example: I am very assertive in my daily life and not likely to shrink from anyone or kow tow to their assumed superiority. During a psychodramatic presentation, I was cast as a "Casper Milquetoast," and played the role of a man who felt inferior to all other men. I had to allow myself to shrink from the harsh looks of another man and to feel the shame of backing down, even if I KNEW I wouldn't. And I found that it brought out a transferrence in me that I was unaware of... I quickly found that I began to snap at the closest victim, much as that quiet man in real life would. If someone weaker than I was to interact with me, they became the object of MY scorn. And it was a darkly pleasureable experience.

A good visual example of this in a theatrical setting would be William Sanderson's portrayal of Inkeeper E.B. Farnum in the HBO miniseries DEADWOOD. He's a man with desires for respect and admiration of his peers, but he's basically a slug of a man who folds under pressure, waffles in the face of the Alpha male characters and generally comes off as the quintessential loser. But when he's alone in a scene, or when chastising his underlings at the hotel that is his domain, he seethes and becomes vicious and predatory. He's still the old "E.B. Farnum" when he again walks into the light of day, but when in HIS ritual chamber, ex excorcises his inner demons.

So the Ritual Chamber is a lot like Las Vegas. What happens there STAYS there. You don't give anything of yourself away, only examine the "what ifs" of a given situation.
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#14709 - 11/20/08 12:36 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Miss Morgan,
 Quote:

That was my point, there are variables, but all of the variables call themselves Satanists, and a lot of them predate Lavey.

Not that I really think it is all that important, as i feel that LaVey was describing something that was already there rather than inventing something new, but I would be interested in hearing about a group of people that identified themselves as Satanists before the Church of Satan came about.

I have heard it stated many times, and generally from people who's agenda is clearly 'LaVey baiting', that Satanism was alive and well before he came about to quantify it. These people have never been able to point out exactly where, mind you.

There are plenty of examples of solitary christian practitioners worshiping the devil. But really, so what? If you argue that these people are Satanists you are also arguing that Satanism and christianity are one and the same. Do you believe this to be the case?

What it really comes down to is what we are talking about when we use the word 'Satanist'. Are we talking about the word itself or what it describes? There are plenty of words with multiple meanings in our language. If we are talking about the latter it would be very hard to argue that Devil worshipers are Satanists. If we are talking about the former we are discussing semantics and nothing more, which is really bereft of any real world meaning.

Jake,
 Quote:

In the ritual sense, you're giving up NOTHING as a Satanist to immerse yourself in the exercise, and you are gaining useful tools that you can use in life.

Succinct and on target as usual. The immediate reaction is usually 'But thats a double standard!', as if that is supposed to stop us in our tracks. So it is, so what?
Belief is a powerful tool for catharsis. Belief fuels emotion, and vice versa. Being able to focus and master belief, rather than be mastered by it is quite a powerful bit of occult knowledge. During ritual, I really 'believe', through suspension of disbelief, in whatever I am conjuring, because belief serves me in there. The belief stays in there when I am finished, along with any expelled emotion.
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#14710 - 11/20/08 01:55 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
If you argue that these people are Satanists you are also arguing that Satanism and christianity are one and the same. Do you believe this to be the case?

Hmm, I'm going to get a lot of negative response on this, but anyway...

In a certain way they actually ARE the same.(Or taid otherwise: they WERE the same.) Put the bible and some of jesus' his quotes in another perspective and you almost have a satanic philosophy. In the very beginning you could actually say they were the same. But as the time passes worshipping the invisible man and many other pointless rules made their way and changed alot. And so today, Xianity now became the hypocrite-contradictional bullshit we all love...

Before some start to answer and attack me, I'd like to ask only those who actually read the bible to answer me. I did, and I know why I just said this. And don't start thinking I'm some kind of christian or theistic devil-worshipper. I am not. I only live by the rule "Know your ennemy".
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