Page 5 of 6 « First<23456>
Topic Options
#14970 - 11/27/08 08:38 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I just read this long and interesting thread entirely and I appreciate. To me it’s like gasoline enabling me to move ahead on my “spiritual path” (or my own evolution if you prefer)

Thanks for having start this thread Frank :-)

As I’ve been a theistic Satanist (understand a Slayer fan), a Xian and practiced Zen Buddhism and now call myself a Satanist, I can’t resist to react on some points. I hope I can bring some added value to this topic…

About what is Satanism and who is or is not a Satanist, I would say words are like bags: they take the form of what you put in them. And “Satanism” & “Satanist” are words. So it’s just a matter of definition. Fights I saw about this definition are infantile to my eyes.

About INWARD & OUTWARD I would like to take a concrete case: Buddha. After having looked for guidance from wise man of his time, he sat under a tree and looked deeply inwards.
So was he on the LHP? Was he a Satanist?

About guidance, it’s not always negative. Look at the thread about mentoring by Morg, it brings valuable nuances.


Regarding

 Quote:
A good book on the subject is called "Wings of Illusion" by John F. Schumaker

He argues though that the insanity of the invisible man or any other well formed or institutional superstitious belief system actually helps prevent a lot of the ills of modern society such as anorexia, bulimia, depression, drug abuse, etc. He states that religion is a certifiable form of insanity but it helps society become less insane. In a nut shell Shumaker describes religion as a reaction to the dawning of human consciousness that awoke in the dark and formidable jungle scared and confused...


It matches my own experience: when I had suddenly the Xian faith I was struggling for getting out the drugs hell. I was addicted to coke, hero and speed, living out of reality. Then reality caught me up, the nightmare started and I was close to suicide… And “Jesus saved me”

Look at another Xian’s experience reported on this forum:

 Quote:
I have been to the bottom of the abyss, i wasnt always a Christian, it was in the darkness of nothingness when all seemed hopeless, pointless, a waste of time that the light of Christ dawned in my mind.


Do you see the similarity of the experiences?

As I already said to Lux, I see him as still trapped in an illusion I escaped.
Why do I escape? Probably because I’m a free thinker, because my mom nicknamed me “WHY” when I was 5 years old.


Finally, I’m wondering if Satanism is not just “yet another step” in my own evolution. Next (last?) one would be what Asmedious mentioned:
 Quote:
I have met a few (very few) people, who practically mesmerized me with their charm, intellect, personal drive, financial success (achieved on their own by bringing all of their characteristics together), and most of all, how they were able to live their lives so freely and independently of everyone’s rules and games, that it would make most “Satanists” drool with envy.


But Carpe Diem, I'm still a Satanist...

Anton tore the last traces of culpability in deserving my own goals away. Now I read The Prince in which I find powerfull weapons.

20 years ago I was a junkie; 2 weeks ago I met Dave Chappell (the vice president of Oracle) and I have FAITH in my own God that I'll leave a trace in the History!

Top
#16798 - 12/23/08 11:08 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Fabiano]
frankinstien Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
Pandemonium,

When I stated in a previous post that I had taken the red pill I was metaphorically speaking of my rejection of religion. But death at times creeps up at me and when I see that senior eating alone in a restaurant corrupted by aged; I swear I never want to be like him or her, but what choice do I have? In that desolate moment I see the dead, their alive and well. For a moment I tolerate my aging and accept the lie, but when I wake from my illusion I hate my ignorance and I hate the lie.

Lucifer is GOD.


Edited by frankinstien (12/23/08 11:15 PM)

Top
#16800 - 12/24/08 12:32 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
frankinstien Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
Now if I can only catch the difference between their and they're I could be a poet...



Frank

"I swear I don't want the earth I only want venus."

Top
#16815 - 12/24/08 06:06 AM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: frankinstien]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Or you could use the edit button. Spelling and grammar help, too.

Edited by daevid777 (12/24/08 06:08 AM)
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#16894 - 12/25/08 12:07 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Woa hold on there tex!

First, there are no branches of Satanism. That's just something that people that don't get it say. Devil worshippers and all those other nuts you named aren't 'types' of Satanists, they are nuts.


Well, let's look at it this way..
Not everybody who considers themselves to be a "satanist" has the same view as to what Satan "is". Some believe him to be a physical entity, a spiritual guiding force, our true creator god, a fallen angel, a force of nature, or in a symbolic sense, mans carnal desires and the true nature of man.

There are people who will call themselves "spiritual satanists", "traditional satanists", "modern/LaVeyan satanists", "devil worshipers", and so on. The basic ideas of each are yes very similar in the sense that Satan stands for freedom and embracing ones true nature, becoming more powerful, living up to your highest potential, ect...However, the major difference is the way individual satanists see Satan. As I said, he can be seen as a spiritual entity or a force of nature (and the list goes on), and it is that which defines what form of Satanism you follow.

Sure when you really think about it there are more similarities than differences (except when it comes to the occultism aspect), but a satanist who believes Satan as a fallen angel and a satanist who sees Satan as a symbol will not agree that they follow the same "form" of Satanism. I suppose the terms "traditional" and "spiritual" satanists are simply there to define the individuals view on Satan.

And just because devil worshipers believe in Satan as a deity doesn't mean they're all nuts. People have believed in and worshiped gods for thousands of years..They couldn't have all been nuts. Although most of their gods were answers for things occurring in nature that they couldn't explain and the fact that we are now more advanced and able to explain these things, there are some who simply have strong faith in their beliefs, and no amount of logic or explanation will change their minds. It makes them ignorant, not crazy.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16896 - 12/25/08 12:26 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

People have believed in and worshiped gods for thousands of years..They couldn't have all been nuts.

I disagree. We live in a society that is wired completely backwards in almost every respect. Faith is a far reaching and destructive cancer.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#16897 - 12/25/08 12:26 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Mike]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
No not ignorant just naive. Someone who worships the devil is not a satanist because they perform the action of worshipping the "devil." Hence the name devil worshiper.

You can't call yourself a satanist while worshipping a diety or other anthropomorphic being. Even if you look at other sources and do searches on Satanism you will find that it is all besed off what Lavey "created." Even in the chaplains book in the military it is listed with Lavey. Granted it may not be the "right/fair" answer but in perspective it generally isn't the way a single individual views something it is how the masses views it, and you my friend are outnumbered in this sense.

I will write more but for now I have a briefing to go to.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

Top
#16900 - 12/25/08 12:45 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Ringmaster]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I don't understand how worshiping Satan as deity is not Satanism. Maybe by modern Satanism standards. If that's what you mean then worshiping anything is not Satanic. But, talking in a LaVeyan sense, if you break it down the Satan these people worship comes from within, therefore by worshiping Satan as their god, it is self worship (even if they don't realize it). To me this is self-deification.

And devil worshipers choose to worship Satan. They made that choice with their own will. Could this be seen as giving up their freedom? Sure, but they are merely surrendering themselves to themselves (unknowingly).

 Quote:
Even if you look at other sources and do searches on satanism you will find that it is all besed off what Lavey "created."


Exactly. That is what I meant by "more similarities than differences" between all the different "forms" of Satanism.

To a theistic Satanist, Satan is as much of a reality as anything, considering the fact that Satan exists in their head and thus is part of their perceived reality. Therefore by worshiping Satan, is is disguised self worship. And as you mentioned, everything is based on what LaVey "put together". It is all similar in values and what the individual satanist sees what Satan stands for.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16902 - 12/25/08 12:55 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I disagree. We live in a society that is wired completely backwards in almost every respect. Faith is a far reaching and destructive cancer.


This I do agree with, however to one who has faith believes it has the power to heal. My aunt and uncle are both born again christians...In this case, I do see them as nuts (like many other christian extremeists), but to them it's the lack of faith that is destructive. Who is right? If you ask the majority of society, what would their answer be? The problem is the answer you would receive. Do people have faith because they're nuts, or are they nuts for having faith? If it is the former, I've been there before. Most nuts do tend to have faith due to their irrational thinking. But nuts for having faith? Maybe stupid for having faith, but if they can still thinking logically about things other than religion, they still have some sanity.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16905 - 12/25/08 01:09 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Faith healing is a scam on the same level as cold reading. Many people believe in both of these, and many other scams as well. So what?

Sure people with faith believe you should have faith, but that is because they have been conditioned away from being reasonable. Religion instills from a very young age that faith has a higher epistemological value than reason, which is quite problematic, and being that it doesn't really work causes it's adherents to operate mostly on reason in their day to day activities or risk death.

But the very fact that these people are able to abandon reason at the drop of a hat is what makes them dangerous. That most people believe in this same sort of idea of an external authority being able to supersedes reason has lead to far reaching and tangible problems in all reaches of society.

ALL faith leads to this same problem.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#16906 - 12/25/08 01:13 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Mike]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Quote:
And devil worshipers choose to worship Satan.


And christians, catholics, ect... choose to worship christ and yet they are considered to be living in self deciet. Does this make the devil worshiper any different? If so how?

How is
 Quote:
worshiping Satan as their god, it is self worship
that true? It just sounds like an oxymoron. You either are a montheist, polythiest, or auothiest, you are not a combination. It doesn't make any sense to say I worship the devil but my knowing that it isn't real is making it worshiping myself. See the oxymoron involved in this? Also every person who worships something "comes from within" it is called devotion, and motivation. No one is forcing them to worship such and such diety.

 Quote:
To a theistic Satanist, Satan is as much of a reality as anything, considering the fact that Satan exists in their head and thus is part of their perceived reality. Therefore by worshiping Satan, is is disguised self worship.


Sounds like a utopia to me. How and why would you disguise self worship? You either view yourself as autothiest or not.

But now I have a mission and need to go for now more later.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

Top
#16908 - 12/25/08 02:59 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Ringmaster]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
And christians, catholics, ect... choose to worship christ and yet they are considered to be living in self deciet. Does this make the devil worshiper any different? If so how?


Satan stands for different aspects than God. God has always told man to worship and follow him to be saved (or else..). There is nowhere in the bible for devil worshipers to say Satan wants people to worship him.

 Quote:
It doesn't make any sense to say I worship the devil but my knowing that it isn't real is making it worshiping myself. See the oxymoron involved in this? Also every person who worships something "comes from within" it is called devotion, and motivation. No one is forcing them to worship such and such diety.


Hm, I suppose. But they are technically worshiping a creation of their own imagination. I don't know what that would be called. It sounds like self worship to me.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16910 - 12/25/08 03:20 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm going to jump sides for this argument.

Technically there is no difference between a theistic satanist worshiping the Satan entity as an ideal and a modern satanist worshiping himself.

What a modern satanist worships is not himself but himself and his potential; his SuperEgo. If a modern was worshiping himself as is, he'd be a mediocre slacker because, due to the fact that merit and self-improvement is an essential part of the modern satanic philosophy, he can't but worship himself as will be, the god to become, the ego transcending his current position; the SuperEgo. This SuperEgo is not different from the Satan ideal of a theistic satanist.

D.

Top
#16911 - 12/25/08 03:43 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The difference sir is a difference of faith vs no faith, which is HUGE.

I KNOW I exist, and I don't need to introduce any self deceptive fantasy into my worldview to have it make sense.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#16912 - 12/25/08 04:03 PM Re: So What's the Difference? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not really.

In essence human as his own god is a moot concept. In reality every human is his own god; nature has designed it in such a manner, you can't escape the fact that your consciousness is the center of the universe. Not everyone realizes it but all are. So we could say that glorifying that we are our own god is a bit similar to glorifying we are all human. That's great but besides great, that's it.

Now what do we actually glorify? Our existence? That would be rather shallow because if that was something to glorify, we'd be on the same level as Joe Six-pack. he exists too. So, what's next? Our being special? Well, I think everyone feels special so nothing to glorify either. So I can't come up with anything else but the SuperEgo. Due to the fact that I'm a critical and perfectionist egocentric asshole, I can't be happy and jolly for what I am today, no, there is room to improve, things to change, parts to explore. No stagnation, no mediocrity for me, so I can't glorify what is, I can only glorify what will be. SuperEgo, Satan, what's in a name?

Your ego is a self deceptive fantasy, your consciousness is, your worldview is. If you can't know reality as it really is, there is only a self-deceptive fantasy left to have faith in.

Gosh, I like switching sides. ;\)

D.

Top
Page 5 of 6 « First<23456>


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.029 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.