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#14828 - 11/23/08 05:44 PM The fires of scrutiny
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Whenever there is any sort of heated conflict where people are gathered, there is generally someone that will try to diffuse the situation. Others will sit silently horrified, waiting for the storm to pass.Others yet will try to browbeat the one they see as being the cause of disturbing their ever so important peace and quiet. Generally, the consensus is that conflict is to be avoided.

This in my experience applies just as much to an internet forum as it does to flesh and blood situations. In most cases people that take a more aggressive approach to discussion are labeled as 'trolls' or shit disturbers, and while this is often the case, it is not always so.

I think the line between attacking people and attacking ideas has been largely blurred in the minds of the many, so much that they have become one and the same.People ARE their opinions. Any sign of conflict is an automatic check in the negative column. Toeing the line of agreement has become a priority. Nobody is wrong, everyone is right. Every opinion is as good as another. Bullshit I say!

So many carry around weak opinions that would quickly fold under scrutiny simply because it has become taboo to scrutinize the opinions of others. Hand in hand with the fact that most people never question their OWN beliefs or opinions, the net result is a lot of people with silly beliefs and ridiculous opinions that remain unchecked and unchallenged.

Knowledge is power, they say, and knowledge boils down to one question; What is truth? If we always endeavor to move towards truth we are also moving towards personal power. This is why I think Satanists, at the very least, should be smart enough to completely invert the paradigm.

By this I mean every opinion, every belief, every meme, every memory and feeling, should be analyzed, scrutinized, and challenged with as much intellectual honesty as you can muster.If an idea or opinion comes out lacking, it should be tossed aside like so much debris. On top of that, opinions that are subjected to the scrutiny of others should, to the intellectually honest, either emerge stronger or crumble away.

A greater understanding of who you are and what you are about can emerge. What is left should be internally coherent and consistent, within your own mind at least. For every erroneous belief and opinion eliminated, a stronger and better 'you' emerges. For every idea that withstands the fires of scrutiny moves closer to truth, the power of knowledge.
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#14829 - 11/23/08 06:21 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
What were you thiking of when you wrote this? Is this about facts? relisious beliefs? moral beliefs? philosophies? All of the above? something else altogether?

I'll also add that for those who would like to get a start actually doing some of this examination, here's a practical place to start looking at the nuts and bolts of it:
A practical Study of Argument by Trudy Govier
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0534519768/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

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#14830 - 11/23/08 06:37 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: coelentrate]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

What were you thiking of when you wrote this? Is this about facts? relisious beliefs? moral beliefs? philosophies? All of the above? something else altogether?

Everything from your views on cosmology and what constitutes a valid epistemology to what is the most efficient way to tie your shoes. Nothing should be sacred or safe from scrutiny.

I to this very day, having had this philosophy of self examination in the forefront for many years, am still rooting out erroneous beliefs from my psyche. Every time an idea I hold as true is exposed as false, I smile inside. That is REAL and positive growth. Every time an idea or opinion is assaulted and remains intact it emerges stronger. Either way sheltering ones opinions and ideas from attack, or defending them past their due date (intellectual dishonesty) really gets us nowhere.
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#14836 - 11/23/08 10:45 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
I know exactly what you were saying. That's what keeps this site relevant. We are not a group of yes men and glad handers. When we smell shit, we announce it. If an ideal doesn't quite work for someone, they question it. We might be the only Satanic site that will allow a Christian to join and attempt to sway our opinion. They never last, but we still allow them their voice. If we were all in agreement, it would be quite boring and counter productive. It's refreshing to log on and find intelligent debate occuring about something much deeper than Ibanez vs Gibson or Who's Your Favorite Band. Some users, through their argument or debate, have caused me to rethink my opinion more than once. I have learned from debate here. So what if someone comes away with an ass rash? Maybe it was well deserved. As Satanists we hold ourselves and our beliefs to be godlike and right. As it should be. But we must be willing to be flexible to allow another viewpoint to help shape and mold our thought process.
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#14837 - 11/24/08 01:57 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: fakepropht]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
If I do not agree with someone, a simple "No, thanx" will suffice.
People do tend to get emotional over various issues. What follows is sometimes an ugly exchange of name calling and other abuse. I look upon all of that scuffling as a waste of time and energy. We don't have to agree, but we still can be civil.

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#14839 - 11/24/08 02:11 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Satansfarm]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
For example, Mao Tse Tung once played ping pong with the Pope, who was visiting China from Rome. Mao said this while he calmly batted the ball back and forth:"I know who you are, I respect you. Your ideas are poisonous to my people. Have a nice day".
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#14844 - 11/24/08 08:25 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Satansfarm]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Fakepropht,

On target as usual. It seems we are on the same page here.
 Quote:

But we must be willing to be flexible to allow another viewpoint to help shape and mold our thought process.

That's just it. As the god of my own universe I feel a sense of responsibility to myself to live life as close to actual reality as I can get. So many Satanists take 'I am my own god' to mean 'my opinions are already the bottom line, and everyone else is wrong' which is pretentious, counterproductive, and stupid.

Satanism is a journey, not a destination \:\)

Satansfarm,

I'm not sure you are really following my line of thinking here. You seem to be characterizing the type of people I described in my first paragraph of my original post.

Simply saying 'no thanks' and disengaging leaves you precisely at square one.
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#15310 - 12/02/08 04:08 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
Br careful with examination of everything. Just questioning something's not the best way to go.

A lot of things in reality are irrational; counterintuitive.

Be empirical, not rational. You can rationalize any damn thing. Don't sit there and think about it, do a test. THEN use rationale to interpret if what you saw is a good indication of reality or the best solution to your problem.

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#15318 - 12/02/08 08:52 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: coelentrate]
Picunnus Offline
member


Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 101
Loc: Ohio, USA
Dan, I don't really think there is a TRUTH. This is a big struggle especially noticeable in people who DID believe in something and became disillusioned. There's a tendency to think there must be something that really does work, and it can turn into a disappointing quest. The only truth anyone really has is what's true for them and even if we can explain our truths to others, they never fully jive because we can't ever fully experience what's in each other's heads.
For me, truth is more just what I've observed, what fits with my viewpoint, and what works and doesn't. Also, what I enjoy doing. The older I get, the more I see the rampant futility in trying to show others why your truth is better, or to really comprehend theirs. There are, fortunately, people it's actually fun to try this with, but most people aren't worth the effort. I realize a lot of people enjoy the debate process for itself, and perhaps you're one of them. I personally don't enjoy interacting with people that much in general. I say if you enjoy the battle, by all means go for it, but the idea that as Satanists we MUST analyze others' viewpoints and evaluate them and react chafes me. If I see something as worthless, why would I waste my time on it?
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#15320 - 12/02/08 09:38 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Picunnus]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I agree with you Picunnus. Truth is an individual thing and while we might find the truths of others either complimentary or adversarial to our own, I'm of the belief that NO truth is universal. There may be universally acceptable phenomenon, like death, taxes and the occasional Leave It To Beaver marathon on TV, but when it comes to one's personal truth, it's only applicable to one.

As for considering the ideas of others. We don't have that obligation. We MIGHT, if there is something in the philosophy of another that interests us on some level, but we no more owe it to anyone else than they do to us. If our personal truth is working for us, we'll be ok with our life and our commitment to our personal ethic and ethos will be emotionally satisfying. That's not to say we're stagnant or resistant to change, but aware that any change we might consider must further enhance our physical or emotional comfort without compromising our personal beliefs.

And you're right. We have a bullshit detector and most of us have it well calibrated. We're not about to waste our time and efforts when it's setting off alarms in our heads.
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#15348 - 12/02/08 06:07 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hey, if you think I am talking about 'The Truth' then you haven't read many of my posts, including this one very closely. Truth is a word that has ABSOLUTELY NO MEANING out of context.

There is no abstract amorphous entity floating in the cosmos somewhere called 'the truth'. There is only 'the truth about x'
For instance the truth is water will boil once it reaches 100 degrees Celsius.

 Quote:

the idea that as Satanists we MUST analyze others' viewpoints and evaluate them and react chafes me. If I see something as worthless, why would I waste my time on it?

I didn't even suggest that. It is the exact opposite. It's our OWN ideas that need to be tested. Why would anyone else's matter? If you believe something and you can't justify that belief in an intellectually honest way, you are practicing self deception.
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#15362 - 12/02/08 08:28 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
a book I think you'll find very interesting Dan

http://www.powells.com/biblio/0743274970?&PID=31879

Zeph
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#15363 - 12/02/08 08:33 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
a book I think you'll find very interesting Dan

http://www.powells.com/biblio/0743274970?&PID=31879

Zeph


Wow. Judging by the synopsis I need to get my hands on this book right away! Looks like fascinating stuff.
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#15371 - 12/02/08 11:44 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Hey, if you think I am talking about 'The Truth' then you haven't read many of my posts, including this one very closely. Truth is a word that has ABSOLUTELY NO MEANING out of context.


No, Dan... no problem there. We both believe that "TRUTH" isn't an imperical fact, but subjective on many levels, however our personal truths, while they may over time be eroded by competent evidence to the contrary, are the touchstones of our personal ethic and ethos.
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#15374 - 12/03/08 02:18 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
With that I can totally agree. 'Truth', as a philosophical entity or concept, as per how it relates to our ethics and metaphysics can only be subjective.

However I was more talking about 'truths' in the context of what is true versus what is not true, in a more concrete sense. If I am arguing with someone who insists 3+3=7 he isn't experiencing his own 'subjective truth', he is wrong. In this sense truths are totally objective.

But to be honest with you I really dislike the word 'truth' It has all sorts of connotations and baggage that really detract from it's usefulness. People tend to use it in a way that is free of context and meaning, some sort of fuzzy ethereal goal to aspire to. Almost deified by some.
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#15387 - 12/03/08 07:44 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
Picunnus Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 101
Loc: Ohio, USA
I apologize if I misinterpreted your words. I believe I was reacting to this part.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

By this I mean every opinion, every belief, every meme, every memory and feeling, should be analyzed, scrutinized, and challenged with as much intellectual honesty as you can muster.
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#15437 - 12/03/08 07:13 PM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Picunnus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3892
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well I can see how you might think I was talking about other people. I will try to be more clear in the future \:\)
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#33640 - 01/07/10 08:11 AM Re: The fires of scrutiny [Re: Dan_Dread]
Baron dHolbach Offline
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Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
[quote=Dan_Dread]
 Quote:

I to this very day, having had this philosophy of self examination in the forefront for many years, am still rooting out erroneous beliefs from my psyche. Every time an idea I hold as true is exposed as false, I smile inside. That is REAL and positive growth. Every time an idea or opinion is assaulted and remains intact it emerges stronger. Either way sheltering ones opinions and ideas from attack, or defending them past their due date (intellectual dishonesty) really gets us nowhere.


Yes. This is applying the scientific method to the landscape of one's psyche. Nothing is raised to the status of theory unless and until the original hypothesis is tested empirically by an honest attempt to falsify it. Whatever cannot be falsified by any means is rejected out of hand. If falsification is attempted and fails, the hypothesis is tentatively accepted as a working theory. Each time falsification fails, the theory becomes more obviously worthy of providing a foundation for new thought and new behavior. As soon as falsification succeeds, the theory is junked.

The scientific method, whenever and wherever it is applied, elevates our species. Applied to one's psyche, it elevates the self.
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