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#1485 - 11/06/07 01:42 PM Altruism and Satanism
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
i would like to thank ZephyrGirl she brought up a nice i idea for a topic.

not to go to much in detail on Altruism.

 Quote:
Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others.


nice idea but very unrealistic to me, in my opinion, self interest governs all, along with for every action, there is an equal reaction. even the simplest of things are done in self interest. for examples sex, personal appearance, politics, marriage, food, owning a pets, donating to organizations, everything.

i think of it as satisfying your own needs, at the same time your helping other do the the same, i think of us a symbiont ( i hope thats the right using of the word). Living off each other, all parties, putting in there effort. there will always be leeches ( but self interest or as some people call it the ego) should remove them. Leechs are not always small and pathetic, look at the top 1% of the world. they now live of there own kind, for war profits, oil, money (be it gold or anything), and power, and have manipulated the system, in there favor.

I ask this, if everything in my opinion is done self interest, be it for mental or psychical gratification, what isn't? this reminds me of Law of nature arguments.

i would go on, i wounder what responses this thread will get, hopefully a great discussion on both sides will form.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#1492 - 11/06/07 03:42 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Altruism is a fallacy, it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean however that one shouldn't care for other people. Why not? If I see someone injured in the street why should I not help them? Unless it's someone I dislike I would help as best I could unless it would severely put me out of my way (and I mean a significant detriment, not just being late for a meeting for example). Why? Because I like having a caring and compassionate society and would like to reinforce that society, because unlike a lot of Satanists, I'm not under the delusion that we are outside of society.

My reason for altruistic-like actions is I enjoy helping others. I like making others happy and it reinforces my happiness to do so. I do what makes me happy, and it really is that simple.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#1704 - 11/10/07 06:53 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
LaVey wrote that Satanism represents a form of controlled selfishness, which is not self-destructive to the individual, unlike stupid forms of selfishness which are ultimately self-defeating (thus opposing the real aims of self-interest).

My personal form of Satanism represents a form of smart selfishness, with intelligence and an objective viewpoint.

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#2301 - 11/26/07 08:13 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Meq]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
I agree that purely altruistic behaviour does not exist. Even going out of our way a little to help a stranger rewards us with ego-boosting social approval. We are, afterall, by nature, social creatures and find a rudimentary comfort in these feelings.

That's not to say that this 'weakness' of compassion cannot be overcome, but another reason for helping in this situation is probably a subconsciously perceived 'social contract' we feel bound to, whereby we would expect the same kind of attention from another reasonable person were we to find ourselves in similar peril. And usually it doesn't take much effort to help someone out in a big way, so the cost-benefit analysis is often in favour of helping.

Extensive psychological research has been done on the nature of apparent altruism, and I believe it's generally accepted that no altruistic behaviour is ever committed out of complete selflessness.

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#2306 - 11/26/07 09:54 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Not always am I doing things completely because of my self interest. I do things regularly to help other people selflessly because it's what I would want other people to do with me. I don't always feel some kind of gratification from helping someone pack out a house or trim back their plants but I do it anyways. Labor intensive things suck and are tiresome but I will do it if it's gonna help out my roommate per say. I wish more people were altruistic in their dealings with others but unfortunately most people have alterior motives behind doing "nice" things for other people. I totally agree with the if-it-feels-good-do-it mentality but it's not always true that people only do things to benefit themselves. But I try to always remember "kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates" which should be applied in all dealings with other people. I don't help out assholes unless I don't know they're assholes when I do it. Cool topic!
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#2321 - 11/27/07 12:40 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
 Quote:
I don't always feel some kind of gratification from helping someone pack out a house or trim back their plants but I do it anyways. Labor intensive things suck and are tiresome but I will do it if it's gonna help out my roommate per say.


Would you help out a stranger for a laborious 6 hours with no promise of reward or acknowledgement? There is a strong distinction between helping out a friend or loved one, and helping a stranger for whose well-being you have less concern out of an act of altruism.

 Quote:
I wish more people were altruistic in their dealings with others but unfortunately most people have alterior motives behind doing "nice" things for other people.


I can only speak for my own perspective, but this sounds to me like quite unSatanic wish-thinking, almost christian in its unconditionality. What obligation do people have for doing "nice" things for other people? You may naturally be a giving person and enjoy helping out others for no other personal gain, but if so that's quite rare, and doesn't obligate others to perceive the same benefits of altruistic-behaviour as you do.

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#2324 - 11/27/07 02:02 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
hellbent666
Unregistered



What is inherintly wrong about helping others that you might or might not know? If you don't know them then it might be a good way to get to know them. If they dont appreciate the help then it's one more person that you helped by leading by example and being a compassionate person. I do agree with you bid that I am a rare person but don't get my post misconstrued. I would never help out my enemy and helping your enemy is christian in nature. Helping out a stranger doing something labor intensive I've only done for cash so I can't say that I would just remodel a basement for free because I'm a nice guy. Given the opportunity to do something small and nice to a complete stranger like giving a homeless dude a dollar even though I know he could get off his ass and get a job I would do it but not for the gratification of giving. I need that dollar but he needs it even more. Also, I'm not saying every one should be like me but it sure would be a nicer world if they were. Do you hold the door open for people behind you or do you let it slam in their face?

Edited by hellbent666 (11/27/07 02:04 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#2343 - 11/27/07 07:23 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
There is obviously nothing inherently wrong with apparently altruistic behaviour. I simply see it as contra the Satanic worldview that one would be willing to help another without at least some sense of reward or personal satisfaction (again, some people naturally enjoy giving more than others, but where draw the line?).

I think the crux of my standpoint is that I never expect anything for free from anyone else beyond reason. If I ever need someone to do something for me, I'll try and offer something in advance (like a favour or some money, etc.). I don't know how I myself could ever end up as homeless, but if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't beg or expect anyone else to do anything for me, at least not without acknowledging my debt to them. I'm way too proud for that, and I feel a certain contempt for those that don't value their own dignity. Therefore I don't give money to homeless people (I also don't give them money because they will most likely blow it on alcohol, and homeless charities actually urge people not to give money directly to the homeless, but to the charities themselves, who will allocate it properly).

I'll hold a door open for several reasons: I would expect a reasonable person to do the same for me, and I feel I live in a society where most people are co-operative to this unwritten contract; it would be largely my fault if the door actually hurt or injured the other person if I let it slam; 9 times out of 10 if I'm holding a door for someone, it's someone I know or someone in my university department, and therefore someone I can respect and largely relate to anyway.

I also respect all strangers by default until they prove to me that they are unworthy of my respect (as opposed to the misanthropic other way round, where one feels people must earn their respect - an attitude I find to be detrimental to one's social success). Just remember that respect is lightyears away from love.

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#2354 - 11/28/07 03:00 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I could cut and paste some crap, but I'm not that kind of surgeon.

So we are back to the "Golden Rule" - "do unto others" - very Christian of you all, and very nice indeed. You must of course realize that this implies an ethical dilemna of "morality", and then we have a new, however tired, thread.

Perhaps we are bound to this "morality" more than we'd like to think - and we'd certainly like to think that "morality" is not, in any way, associated with Christianity. It really isn't, of course, but we have been conditioned to believe this.

Altruism, like "Satanism", is, I believe, an ideal...

However, I think that the true definition of "altruism" can never truly be attained... even "self-sacrifice" involves a bit of the martyr, just as the "zoological" definition of altruism explains. (yeah, I looked it up)

We are still, in some strange silent way, but in every way, selfish creatures.
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#2372 - 11/28/07 12:51 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I also respect all strangers by default until they prove to me that they are unworthy of my respect (as opposed to the misanthropic other way round, where one feels people must earn their respect - an attitude I find to be detrimental to one's social success). Just remember that respect is lightyears away from love. "

I don't necessarly respect all strangers, I think that is kinda stupid. I am aware of people, and watch their behavior thus knowing the best way to interact with them in order to accomplish my goals.

True respect is earned, thru behavior. Actions speak louder than words. In other words, talk and words are cheap, and have no meaning unless they can be backed up with action.

Love is so different from respect. Its not even in the same catagory. The only thing I see them having in common is that they both have to be earned.



"even "self-sacrifice" involves a bit of the martyr"

I think self-sacrifice is just another name for the martyr complex or possibly instintual action when placed into a flight or fight situation.

I feel that Nothing is free, and that everything has its price.
Its like a trade off, how much/what you are willing to do to inorder to get the results you want.

Morg
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#2382 - 11/28/07 06:43 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Altruism
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

Egoism
1. the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness (opposed to altruism).

courtesy of dictionary .com

To put it another way, Altruism simply defines honesty and genuity. Doing the decent thing by fellow individuals. Doing no harm. Loving and caring for your own and your chosen ones. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Whilst Egoism; is purely for reasons of self gratification; with no genuine concern for anything other than how they stand to benefit. And there is everything wrong with that.

Currently I'm studying Bach flower remedies, in short flower essences in sun energised water which deal with treating the 7 main emotional states.

One of the most complex issues to deal with is those with "Over concern for the welfare of others". People who present this particular state can NEVER do enough to help others. Leaving a trail of obligation in their wake. Always fussing and smothering all around them, manipulating and infiltrating the unsuspecting victim, sometimes along with their entire family, finances and social network. Passive aggressive, and in constant need of being told how wonderful they are. Very dangerous in their ability of sapping vitality out of their prey, and very swiftly at that..

As satanists we should be instantly aware of these types. We know them plain and straight. Psychic Vampires. And they are to be avoided at all costs. Not so fortunate are the individuals who are as yet unaware!

So it seems that altruism does most certainly exist, and it is indeed a very positive attribute. Would it not be the altruistic part of our nature that makes us better parents, friends, partners, colleagues etc. the list goes on. In summary it is what makes us decent and ethical human beings. Do we not care deeply about the above mentioned to the point we would help them in any way possible if they were in pain, or injured, or emotionally and mentally unwell? Of course we would.....

It is unfortunate that altruism has been confused with egoism, For those who believe that it simply does not exist, I am sorry for you. There obviously hasn't been enough kindness in your world. \:\(
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#2394 - 11/28/07 09:19 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
It is unfortunate that altruism has been confused with egoism, For those who believe that it simply does not exist, I am sorry for you. There obviously hasn't been enough kindness in your world.


So you are saying that I just need a little love and understanding? And underneath it all I'm just a scared little boy that didn't get enough attention?

 Quote:
So it seems that altruism does most certainly exist, and it is indeed a very positive attribute. Would it not be the altruistic part of our nature that makes us better parents, friends, partners, colleagues etc. the list goes on. In summary it is what makes us decent and ethical human beings. Do we not care deeply about the above mentioned to the point we would help them in any way possible if they were in pain, or injured, or emotionally and mentally unwell? Of course we would.....


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion that "altruism exists", but I'll let that one slide. This is quickly going to get into a semantics debate - but let me at least reply that we "care" for those people mentioned: We have an "interest" in them, for whatever reasons - if they are unwell, it would affect us on some scale. A sick stranger? Please cover your nose and mouth when you sneeze or cough...

How about relating this to a mathematical structure, like a segment of a parabola (or hyperbola? - never could get those right) - we can get closer, and closer to the ideal of "altruism", and display altruistic "behavior", but we never really cross the x-axis.
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#2396 - 11/28/07 09:39 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Agreed, although our actions may be compassionate and kind we do so because we want to be nice. We want the good feeling inside we get for helping someone else, and when it's someone we have an invested interest in such as a friend or partner, their happiness directly effects your happiness. When they are sad you will enjoy their company less so you want them to be happy. There's no shame in admitting this, you do truly care for them, it has become your problem so you feel a need to make it better to make yourself happy. It's the way of the human psyche. Sorry if that's a bitter pill for some people to swallow, after all it's not nice to think of oneself as selfish but it's just how we're wired.

Anything more would be semantics on the meanings of altruism and the exact stimuli in the brain, we don't need to be that thorough.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#2397 - 11/29/07 01:21 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
 Originally Posted By: daevid777

Perhaps we are bound to this "morality" more than we'd like to think - and we'd certainly like to think that "morality" is not, in any way, associated with Christianity. It really isn't, of course, but we have been conditioned to believe this.


i would disagree, "morality" changes from person to person, it the person is Christian could his forum of "morality" be part of his Christianity? "morality" to me doesn't exist just like "Good and Evil" to me there is only, what is good and bad for you or your morals. Once people start having dogmatic thinking and idea's, they have lost the idea of Satanism (by no means am i talking about you daevid777, i mean this in general).

For example, Anton LaVey, we all on stage playing a part, knowing who is pulling the strings (seeing though the parlor tricks). Most people would say this is common sense.

or Aleister Crowley, every man and woman is a star. Fundamentally, we are made up of same matter as stars. Most people would also say this is common sense.

so which one is right?

I would agree, Satanism is a gathering of idea's, over centuries old if not older, that predate Anton LaVey (which poeple don't like to think). the idea's can be found in Socrates, plato, Aristotle, John Locke, Herbert Spencer (Social Darwinism), Thomas Hobbes , Niccolò Machiavelli, mark twain, i can go on and on. but my point is that the idea (Satanism) selfishness or self interest can be found in them. also the counter point of Satanism, Altruism (selflessness) can be found in there as well.

Nothing is imposable, just highly improbable. is Altruism possible, realistically just a probable that there is self interest behind it.

I've always have like this quote
 Quote:
“The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal.”






_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#2403 - 11/29/07 02:52 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Thanks blackdragon...

But you mention Macchiavelli - his propositions were about "control", which is definitely not altruistic. He did, however, mention altruistic "behavior", which was ultimately utilized to further the command of the people. No "altruism" there, at all, I think. That was about "power", and "control" - words that don't often relate to a "true" version of "altruism" (a word I'm sick of now) in any ideal sense of the word (did I mention I'm sick of the word?).
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