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#2510 - 12/03/07 03:06 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Why thank you David.

And not to worry, I am well informed about the craziness of Texas. We have T.V and books down here now. Actually we've had them for a while \:\) Which is why I wasn't too bothered by your answers. I'd have the shits if I lived in the desert too. It's too damn hot to be anything other than cranky.

I'll have to continue later, a violent electrical storm means shut down.

Ciao
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#2512 - 12/03/07 07:26 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
 Quote:
I think everyone deserves kindness until they show you a reason not to be. Would you want everyone being a jack-ass to you for no reason at all other than the fact that they feel that you don't deserve their kindness?


There are more than the two choices of showing kindness and being a jackass. How about, being indifferent? At least that way you're showing respect for another's independence and responsibility.

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#2523 - 12/03/07 07:18 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
I love indifference, and apathy. Apathy as in disengaging when I refuse to get involved in something. I do love the fact that our chosen path allows us not to take shit, and to quietly annihilate those who fuck with us.

Was I by no means saying spread the love unconditionally, that's just stupid. I was simply saying that we would do almost anything to see that our chosen ones are OK, and that if someone was in distress, and in genuine need, I would offer assistance where possible if I choose to do so PROVIDED that it did not impede my own well being (which I consider the most important)

I'm over this thread now hahahaha

That's it from me \:\)


Edited by Circus_Hell (12/03/07 07:35 PM)
Edit Reason: i
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#5707 - 03/15/08 06:14 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
However you define the word it seems that altruism actually is part of not only human nature, but to be found througout the natural world.

A book that I recently read, brought up the topic of altruism in nature, which is what made me do a little more research on the subject. There's alot out there about it, but I thought I'd throw a couple of links in here for anyone interested.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060529_altruism.htm

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060527/note16.asp

I think the best example of altruism that is totally selfless is when someone puts their life in danger or even looses it, to help protect or save someone else that is not a reletive or lover.

A little while back in Australia a man tried to stop another man that was beating a woman in public. He got shot and died for his trouble. This woman was a total stranger. I find it hard to think he did this to feel good about himself. Seems more like he did it because he saw something he thought was wrong. He could have just walked past as everyone else was doing. So that would make acts of heroism acts of altruism in my mind.

Zeph
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It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#5713 - 03/15/08 09:07 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I have read a bit on evolutionary psychology and biosociology in connection to my study. Some of the theories are very interesting in connection to an understanding of belief and morality. Some argues that the human brain evolved in a social setting. According to this theory or brains grew not because of a change in diet, or paralleled by our use of tools, but paralleled to the evolving social skills. Humans are very weak alone without a community, and in the stone age a human could not survive alone for long. Corporation was a must, the better individuals and groups worked together, handled conflict, shared recurses etc. the bigger chance of survival. Today our human brain is very much a social brain, and most of the time we even read social relations into non-social relations (like when religious people blame god or the devil when a harvest fails because of bad wetter).

When you look at social groups of chimpanzees you see that they share food, but not with everyone. They share food with other apes who share with them, and in the long run they give and receive the same amount of food. Aggressive behaver make them less inclined to share with an individual and pro-social behavior like grooming make them more inclined to sharing. Chimpanzees also have a lot of ways to deal with aggression and fights. The whole group could get hurt and die if conflict could not be controlled, so social groups have to be able to deal with this. Chimpanzees probably have a lot of the same social skills that pro-humans had before our brains evolved and we became even more socially skilled. Some of the social skills are more or less instinktive, but most have to be learned (those of you who have kids knows this as a fact).

Pacal Boyer, a sociologist, argues that altruism would only be a evolutionary advantage in some circumstances, and it need to be an advantage to have evolved. The theory goes, that it is only a evolutionary advantage to collaborate if you are able to remember and recognize those who you can trust and weed out cheaters. If cheaters are not dealt with in a very aggressive way they would have an evolutionary advantage and breed out the collaborators. Altruism is a way to show that you are a good collaborater, and being able to look like one is very important for social animals who are dependent on collaboration. When you leave a tip without having to, act fair in a deal without having to do so by law and so on your are actually making your self look like a good partner for further collaboration (good guys badges DO work). You don't think about it, but most people who act altruistic receive a reward in the form of a good feeling making them even more inclined to act altruism and even better at finding collaboration in the future.

When you look at primitive societies witches are viewed and hated as as cheaters who get without giving back. One could argue that satanists are cheaters too, because we manipulate to get what we want without feeling obliged to act fair. On the other hand, satanists too have to be able to look like good collaborators as long as we live in a society, and we also have to collaborate. If you don't pay your taxes, don't pay the milkman, don't do your job right etc. you are left without a home, without a job, without money and without friends. LaVey talked about psychic vampires. I guess that was his term for cheaters, and I also guess that most satanists would not look kindly on cheaters if they where the ones being cheated. Cheating is not “morally wrong”, but it is hard to make a living without being caught, and it is hard to get by without some sort of social connections and collaboration.

Look of Pascal Boyers book “Religion explained” if you want to read more about the evolution of morality and about religion and religious ideas as a “parasite” on our social brain.

- Amina

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#11749 - 09/22/08 09:12 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I'm convinced altruism exists for having practised it.

True & pure altruism is quite rare however. I count on my fingers the number of times I really did a put act of altruisim.

Pure altruisme is sourced by love. One time I made a gift to a friend of me. It was a pure "intuition" that it was what I had to do at that time. It was not prepared, it wasn'tb a gift I bought for some special occasion. I just gave my sun glasses to her without worrying if I would need them afterwards.

If you manage to do a pure altruist act, you'll never regret it afterwards even if your friend betray you later. Buddhists would say "you produce no karma" when acting like that. You just follow you gut feelings, younatural force who told you to just give & forget.

Satanist are generous with their friends, they can be altruist...

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#11750 - 09/22/08 09:59 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Yes, but is it considered true altruism when the act of giving pleases you? That means the act is not entirely unselfish, and therefore is not true altruism. Mother Teresa was considered an altruist, but I bet she mostly helped people because it made her feel good inside, apart from her considering it her mission from God.

Altruism and selfishness are inextricably linked, and to try and separate the two into separate motivations (ie altruism = "good", selfishness = "bad") only serves to create unnecessary confusion.
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#11759 - 09/23/08 07:05 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
You couldn't have said it better Nemesis \:\)

Being nice and making gifts to people we like is a source of pleasure for us ; so in fact altruism is not that altruist xD But things are good this way, you can please yourself and someone you like at the same time ; and if the aforementioned dude is a real friend ; next time he will be the one who makes a gift to you.

Well I guess Mother Teresa wasn't hoping gifts back from people she helped ; but the feeling of helping them must have been important enough to her ; on top of that she thought she did it for God.

Personnally I wouldn't spend much time working in an association to help hobos, old people or whatever. I could help from time to time, if an occasion occurs, but would certainly not make it a part of my life. I'm generous with my friends I know don't exploit it and would give it back to me. Being too nice without knowing the people perfectly can make you become a free delivery store without even noticing it.
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#11767 - 09/23/08 10:38 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Impius]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well,

First true altruisme is quite rare (max 10 times in 41 years in my case) so no real danger to be vampirised.

2nd, yes the experience is quite pleasant, indeed. BUT you don't do it in this goal. You do it "naturally". You don't expect any return from it. Neither from your friend neither from God (perhaps like Mother Theresa ;\) ).

Finally, I'm convinced that gifts made in this way are "special". The person who receives it feel that there is something special. He/she will be touched in his/her heart.

Now suppose that this friend betrays you! \:\(
First this friend has now to be considered as an ennemy
2nd, you will not regret you gift as you did not expect any return. If you give smthing expecting some return and then you're batrayed, then it hurts !
3rd, there are great chances that you former friend will have regrets to have betrayed someone who really loved him/her (I said altruisme is sustained/sourced by love in my 1st post - see also the topic I created on Love & Hate where I give my definition of love...) These regrets might be incouncious, causing your ennemy to be in a unhappy or sad mood without knowing exactly why.

Finally, your ennemy probably knows that as a Satanist you will never give him it again.
He tasted how you can be generous and it's his curse !
If you really want to take some pleasure in your revenge, just give anything to your true friend in the presence of your new ennemy!

Machiavelic isn't it ?

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#12512 - 10/11/08 07:42 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Not only is 'altruism' not compatible with Satanism, it isn't compatible with reality

Much like perfection, altruism only exists within the confines of semantics.

People simply do not act without the expectation of some form of reward.
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#12604 - 10/13/08 05:15 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I disagree. People do act without the expectation of reward, sometimes they act with the expectation of quite the opposite, punnishment.

I agree with Fabiano though that it is rare and not something we all do all the time. What is more, some of us NEVER do it, neither should we HAVE to.

If it comes naturally to you though, why should Satanism be so determined to have people NOT do it? It is these little things that I find stop Satanism from having wider appeal.

Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also. Just because you don't aren't naturally altruistic, doesn't mean that it's not compatible with reality, it's just not compatible with YOUR reality.

Zeph
_________________________
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It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#12611 - 10/13/08 07:45 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I disagree. People do act without the expectation of reward, sometimes they act with the expectation of quite the opposite, punnishment.

Give me an example.
 Quote:

Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also. Just because you don't aren't naturally altruistic, doesn't mean that it's not compatible with reality, it's just not compatible with YOUR reality.

I don't think you are defining altruism properly.
Altruism doesn't just mean 'doing nice things'
I do things for people I care about all the time. Because seeing them happy makes me feel good. Man as an animal just doesn't act, period, unless it is to fulfill a value. I defy you to give me an example of pure altruism.
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#12614 - 10/13/08 08:05 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Agreed Zeph ! \:\)

 Quote:
Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also.


But here I think there is a confusion between the pairs Dark Side/Bright Side and Good/Evil.

I personaly view the Dark Side as synonym of Left Hand Path. The imagery of the RHP is bright with a lot of light everywhere. Our is dark, what a surprise!

Good & Evil are harder to define but I'm sure everybody can "feel it".
I think that the RHP preach the you should do good things to everybody and never do bad/evil ones.
The LHP is for doing good things to friends and evil to ennemies.
In other words, we love our friends but not our ennemies.
Altruism is "a good thing" as per the above, that's all.

Finally, DD, Altruism is not perfection but true altruism is (close to?) perfection. That's why it's so rare.
A mother giving milk to her baby (human or not) couldn't be viewed as an altruist behaviour/act? Even if the animal is "intinct driven" the behaviour remains altruist. For a human mother, sure she'll be happy when her baby will smile instead of crying once fed. BUT does she do this in that goal? I have no kids, I can't answer on this, but I really experienced true altruism (believe me or not).

Satanists are not evil! We do not promote murder, rape, crime, etc just because it's evil!
We're kind with our firends and hard with our ennemies, after that, each individual satanist lives this in his day to day life as he wants... (sometimes being good, sometimes being evil)

Follow your gut feeling to know what to do, use your brain to find how to do it!

Fabiano

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#12617 - 10/13/08 08:19 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Finally, DD, Altruism is not perfection but true altruism is (close to?) perfection. That's why it's so rare.

Arg there is that meaningless word again! *squashes the word perfection under a heavy book*
 Quote:

A mother giving milk to her baby (human or not) couldn't be viewed as an altruist behaviour/act?

Well, no. It is proven that the brain releases dopamine when a mother is nursing.
 Quote:

Satanists are not evil! We do not promote murder, rape, crime, etc just because it's evil!

I don't promote 'evil' at all. However just being what and who I am makes me 'evil' to many.


Edited by Dan_Dread (10/13/08 08:20 PM)
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#12642 - 10/14/08 08:28 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
Yes, but getting your dose of dopamine hardly is the motivator in feeding your child. It seems like one should feel completely empty for the good deed to be counted as altruistic...
If I open a door to a stranger, I don't do because I expect a warm feeling from doing so. If I happened to get one, it can not suddenly be counted as the motivator behind the act.

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