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#12645 - 10/14/08 01:30 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Dan_Dread Offline
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In the case of the mother, it is only the very first time she nurses she would not be aware of the 'warm fuzzy' that would result. But that doesn't really matter, because she is already acting according to her values by nursing the baby at all, rather than throwing it out the nearest window.
This is a poor example though because biological motivators that transcend rational choice are at play here.

The 'reward' does not have to come after the act. Often the reward is knowing what you are doing will make you feel better than doing the alternative.

In all honesty the closest example I have ever been able to come up with of pure altruism is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades. (which, outside of the movies, has probably never actually happened)
But even in this example, the soldier would value his comrades more than his own life (a very odd situation indeed!) and therefore would still be gravitating towards the most rewarding choice.
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#12667 - 10/14/08 08:11 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I think there is always a mean to find some kind of reward in any action.

After all, when we act we always have a "good reason" to act this way. Or it was instinctive, and fullfiling the pulsion is rewarding. Or it's rationally decided and having the assurance of making the good choice, doing the right thing could also be viewed as rewarding. So any act has some kind of rewarding inherently in it. So no act is altruist!
This answers the initial question...

But an other acceptation of altruism emerged from the thread which is closer to the general idea people have bout "altruism". See Hellbent666 post & Daevid777 answer above in this thread to see what I mean.

The point of view adopted in the initial question is introspective, looking at the motivations of the individual.
The other point of view is behavioural, like looking at the individual and to what he gives and get from an external point of view. In this later acceptation, satanists are known to be "altruist" with their friends but not with their ennemies.

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#12714 - 10/15/08 05:30 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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 Quote:
give me an example


actually if you'd bothered to read the whole thread (actually four or five posts above your own would do), you would see I already have, but for your sake here it is again.

However you define the word it seems that altruism actually is part of not only human nature, but to be found througout the natural world.

 Quote:
A book that I recently read, brought up the topic of altruism in nature, which is what made me do a little more research on the subject. There's alot out there about it, but I thought I'd throw a couple of links in here for anyone interested.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060529_altruism.htm

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060527/note16.asp

I think the best example of altruism that is totally selfless is when someone puts their life in danger or even looses it, to help protect or save someone else that is not a reletive or lover.

A little while back in Australia a man tried to stop another man that was beating a woman in public. He got shot and died for his trouble. This woman was a total stranger. I find it hard to think he did this to feel good about himself. Seems more like he did it because he saw something he thought was wrong. He could have just walked past as everyone else was doing. So that would make acts of heroism acts of altruism in my mind.


I'm not saying that some people don't do 'good' to try and get warm fuzzy's, but I think 'most' people want to help others because deep down, most of us know that we also may need some help ourselves someday (if not already).

They say admitting you need help is one of the hardest things to do and I beleive that. With my poor health, I have to accept help that I would never have accepted 10 years ago.
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#12718 - 10/15/08 06:00 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Humm.

Let's take a look at the standard definition of altrusim

 Quote:

1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

If you don't like this definition, present a different one. However, you will notice the key descriptor will always be selfless or unselfish. Again I say there is no such thing as a selfless action insofar as human animals are concerned.
 Quote:

but I think 'most' people want to help others because deep down, most of us know that we also may need some help ourselves someday (if not already).

Your example is one of displayed empathy, not altruism. The man in that scenario was acting because it REALLY BOTHERED HIM to see the woman in peril. Maybe he has a wife, or a daughter. Ultimately he was acting in his own interest and to satisfy his own values.

Altruism is a myth, there are only humans and their interests.

I really think we agree on everything but semantics.



Edited by Nemesis (10/15/08 08:19 PM)
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#12741 - 10/15/08 10:31 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
In all honesty the closest example I have ever been able to come up with of pure altruism is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades. (which, outside of the movies, has probably never actually happened)
But even in this example, the soldier would value his comrades more than his own life (a very odd situation indeed!)


Ever hear of the highest award bestowed upon a soldier by the US Government? The Congressional Medal of Honor. Just a small amount of research would probably blow your mind at the sacrifice and heroism these soldiers displayed in the line of combat. Here is but one example of a soldier falling on a grenade to save his men. I could list more, but why should I do your work?

ANDERSON, RICHARD BEATTY

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 26 June 1921, Tacoma, Wash. Accredited to: Washington. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving with the 4th Marine Division during action against enemy Japanese forces on Roi Island, Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, 1 February 1944. Entering a shell crater occupied by 3 other marines, Pfc. Anderson was preparing to throw a grenade at an enemy position when it slipped from his hands and rolled toward the men at the bottom of the hole. With insufficient time to retrieve the armed weapon and throw it, Pfc. Anderson fearlessly chose to sacrifice himself and save his companions by hurling his body upon the grenade and taking the full impact of the explosion. His personal valor and exceptional spirit of loyalty in the face of almost certain death were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
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#12743 - 10/15/08 10:38 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
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A superior human being in my book is Ssgt. Sweezer who was an N.C.O.I.C. in my platoon has a huge chunk blown out of his leg for performing that very act along with an awe inspiring performance in Panama and Desert Storm, so.......yeh. ;\)
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#12752 - 10/16/08 03:32 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
Diavolo Offline
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Altruism becomes a bit confusing when it comes to humans, probably because we can't seperate humans from choice and identity. Acts like these are amazing or admirable, depending on whom judges them.

But acts like these happen in nature all the time and although it is also called altruistic behavior there, one can seriously doubt the amount of free will involved by the animals subject to it.

To me altruism is just a genetic remnant, which can be witnessed lightly in friendship and love, and more in acts like these. For a human it sure isn't a logical act but we're probably far from being logical creatures.

D.

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#12786 - 10/17/08 10:23 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

Acts like these are amazing or admirable, depending on whom judges them.

Well that's certainly a false dichotomy. :P

I would say 'stupid'

Ok, perhaps 'amazingly stupid'
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#12789 - 10/17/08 11:44 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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If I'd throw myself on a grenade I'd call it amazingly stupid yeah but I don't necessarily consider it stupid when others do it.

Fact is, we need behavior like this. A society at war with others can greatly benefit from heroism and maybe that is why it is cultivated throughout history. You don't get very far in warfare when every soldier has self-preservation in mind. You'd end up with both sides running into the wrong direction all the time.

So propagating the hero-meme is a wise thing to do for a society.

D.

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#12792 - 10/17/08 11:57 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

You don't get very far in warfare when every soldier has self-preservation in mind.

Exactly. Then the people with something to gain from the war would have to fight themselves wouldn't they? This of course is NEVER the case.

How do you get a group of people to become your own personal murder squad without feeding them a lot of bullshit ideals?

"The strong rule over the weak, but the clever rules them all"
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#12801 - 10/17/08 04:43 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
BloodHorn Offline
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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
"The strong rule over the weak, but the clever rules them all"
How true that is. Awsome quote Dan.
I almost joined the Army, But I decided not. Overall I felt it wasn't for me. I'm not a AM kinda guy. I would rather be still working at AM. I know they have jobs for night time, But my luck they wouldn't give it to me. Plus if I was going to do it I would go infantry
Dan aren't you in the service?
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#12802 - 10/17/08 04:59 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: BloodHorn]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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LOL I would sooner burn out my eyes with a hot iron than willingly become a government pawn \:\)
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#12804 - 10/17/08 05:44 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
BloodHorn Offline
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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
Haha. I guess that is a another reason I didn't join. Plus I didn't want to go to Iraq.
I could of sworn I had seen someone posting stuff about military shit. Maybe it wasn't you. Maybe it was.
But I wanted to be on the Army's boxing team as well as infantry. Glad I didn't join. Would of been the biggest mistake of my life. I would probably be in Iraq, Or maybe even dead.
Speaking of Iraq; I'm so glad to see gasoline going back down, That 4 bucks a gallon was killing me.
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#12858 - 10/19/08 11:58 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
Phaethon Offline
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 78
Everything is truly done for self interest. Someone who acts like a mother Teresa and goes through self pain and struggle to help others is (unknowing to themselves) a masochist. Look at simpler animal who do "good things" for their kind. Animals that care for their young only do so because it is in the interest of their species, something that exists in a species for the species and by the species.

Simply enacting your "free will" is acting in self interest. Anything you do on purpose is in self interest. Our actions are only designated by an advanced systems of wants and needs. I only assume that we have free will to do something that we want (and can) do. A person cannot walk if the body does not want to walk. If someone wants to eat, they make the choice on whether to eat or not. But even if you force yourself to do something that would not be naturally wanted, such as to hurt yourself, you want to do it, therefor you can chose to do it.

Everything we do conciously is enacting our wants and therefore out self interests. So is what we do when we are not fully in control. By controlling ourselves, we are doing what we want, we are living for self interest, we are paying worship to ourselves.

By typing this, I have done what I wanted and acted in my own self interest.
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#12862 - 10/19/08 12:22 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Phaethon]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3813
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EXACTLY!
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