Page all of 5 12345>
Topic Options
#1485 - 11/06/07 01:42 PM Altruism and Satanism
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
i would like to thank ZephyrGirl she brought up a nice i idea for a topic.

not to go to much in detail on Altruism.

 Quote:
Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others.


nice idea but very unrealistic to me, in my opinion, self interest governs all, along with for every action, there is an equal reaction. even the simplest of things are done in self interest. for examples sex, personal appearance, politics, marriage, food, owning a pets, donating to organizations, everything.

i think of it as satisfying your own needs, at the same time your helping other do the the same, i think of us a symbiont ( i hope thats the right using of the word). Living off each other, all parties, putting in there effort. there will always be leeches ( but self interest or as some people call it the ego) should remove them. Leechs are not always small and pathetic, look at the top 1% of the world. they now live of there own kind, for war profits, oil, money (be it gold or anything), and power, and have manipulated the system, in there favor.

I ask this, if everything in my opinion is done self interest, be it for mental or psychical gratification, what isn't? this reminds me of Law of nature arguments.

i would go on, i wounder what responses this thread will get, hopefully a great discussion on both sides will form.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

Top
#1492 - 11/06/07 03:42 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Altruism is a fallacy, it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean however that one shouldn't care for other people. Why not? If I see someone injured in the street why should I not help them? Unless it's someone I dislike I would help as best I could unless it would severely put me out of my way (and I mean a significant detriment, not just being late for a meeting for example). Why? Because I like having a caring and compassionate society and would like to reinforce that society, because unlike a lot of Satanists, I'm not under the delusion that we are outside of society.

My reason for altruistic-like actions is I enjoy helping others. I like making others happy and it reinforces my happiness to do so. I do what makes me happy, and it really is that simple.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

Top
#1704 - 11/10/07 06:53 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
LaVey wrote that Satanism represents a form of controlled selfishness, which is not self-destructive to the individual, unlike stupid forms of selfishness which are ultimately self-defeating (thus opposing the real aims of self-interest).

My personal form of Satanism represents a form of smart selfishness, with intelligence and an objective viewpoint.

Top
#2301 - 11/26/07 08:13 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Meq]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
I agree that purely altruistic behaviour does not exist. Even going out of our way a little to help a stranger rewards us with ego-boosting social approval. We are, afterall, by nature, social creatures and find a rudimentary comfort in these feelings.

That's not to say that this 'weakness' of compassion cannot be overcome, but another reason for helping in this situation is probably a subconsciously perceived 'social contract' we feel bound to, whereby we would expect the same kind of attention from another reasonable person were we to find ourselves in similar peril. And usually it doesn't take much effort to help someone out in a big way, so the cost-benefit analysis is often in favour of helping.

Extensive psychological research has been done on the nature of apparent altruism, and I believe it's generally accepted that no altruistic behaviour is ever committed out of complete selflessness.

Top
#2306 - 11/26/07 09:54 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Not always am I doing things completely because of my self interest. I do things regularly to help other people selflessly because it's what I would want other people to do with me. I don't always feel some kind of gratification from helping someone pack out a house or trim back their plants but I do it anyways. Labor intensive things suck and are tiresome but I will do it if it's gonna help out my roommate per say. I wish more people were altruistic in their dealings with others but unfortunately most people have alterior motives behind doing "nice" things for other people. I totally agree with the if-it-feels-good-do-it mentality but it's not always true that people only do things to benefit themselves. But I try to always remember "kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates" which should be applied in all dealings with other people. I don't help out assholes unless I don't know they're assholes when I do it. Cool topic!
Top
#2321 - 11/27/07 12:40 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
 Quote:
I don't always feel some kind of gratification from helping someone pack out a house or trim back their plants but I do it anyways. Labor intensive things suck and are tiresome but I will do it if it's gonna help out my roommate per say.


Would you help out a stranger for a laborious 6 hours with no promise of reward or acknowledgement? There is a strong distinction between helping out a friend or loved one, and helping a stranger for whose well-being you have less concern out of an act of altruism.

 Quote:
I wish more people were altruistic in their dealings with others but unfortunately most people have alterior motives behind doing "nice" things for other people.


I can only speak for my own perspective, but this sounds to me like quite unSatanic wish-thinking, almost christian in its unconditionality. What obligation do people have for doing "nice" things for other people? You may naturally be a giving person and enjoy helping out others for no other personal gain, but if so that's quite rare, and doesn't obligate others to perceive the same benefits of altruistic-behaviour as you do.

Top
#2324 - 11/27/07 02:02 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
hellbent666
Unregistered



What is inherintly wrong about helping others that you might or might not know? If you don't know them then it might be a good way to get to know them. If they dont appreciate the help then it's one more person that you helped by leading by example and being a compassionate person. I do agree with you bid that I am a rare person but don't get my post misconstrued. I would never help out my enemy and helping your enemy is christian in nature. Helping out a stranger doing something labor intensive I've only done for cash so I can't say that I would just remodel a basement for free because I'm a nice guy. Given the opportunity to do something small and nice to a complete stranger like giving a homeless dude a dollar even though I know he could get off his ass and get a job I would do it but not for the gratification of giving. I need that dollar but he needs it even more. Also, I'm not saying every one should be like me but it sure would be a nicer world if they were. Do you hold the door open for people behind you or do you let it slam in their face?

Edited by hellbent666 (11/27/07 02:04 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

Top
#2343 - 11/27/07 07:23 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
There is obviously nothing inherently wrong with apparently altruistic behaviour. I simply see it as contra the Satanic worldview that one would be willing to help another without at least some sense of reward or personal satisfaction (again, some people naturally enjoy giving more than others, but where draw the line?).

I think the crux of my standpoint is that I never expect anything for free from anyone else beyond reason. If I ever need someone to do something for me, I'll try and offer something in advance (like a favour or some money, etc.). I don't know how I myself could ever end up as homeless, but if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't beg or expect anyone else to do anything for me, at least not without acknowledging my debt to them. I'm way too proud for that, and I feel a certain contempt for those that don't value their own dignity. Therefore I don't give money to homeless people (I also don't give them money because they will most likely blow it on alcohol, and homeless charities actually urge people not to give money directly to the homeless, but to the charities themselves, who will allocate it properly).

I'll hold a door open for several reasons: I would expect a reasonable person to do the same for me, and I feel I live in a society where most people are co-operative to this unwritten contract; it would be largely my fault if the door actually hurt or injured the other person if I let it slam; 9 times out of 10 if I'm holding a door for someone, it's someone I know or someone in my university department, and therefore someone I can respect and largely relate to anyway.

I also respect all strangers by default until they prove to me that they are unworthy of my respect (as opposed to the misanthropic other way round, where one feels people must earn their respect - an attitude I find to be detrimental to one's social success). Just remember that respect is lightyears away from love.

Top
#2354 - 11/28/07 03:00 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I could cut and paste some crap, but I'm not that kind of surgeon.

So we are back to the "Golden Rule" - "do unto others" - very Christian of you all, and very nice indeed. You must of course realize that this implies an ethical dilemna of "morality", and then we have a new, however tired, thread.

Perhaps we are bound to this "morality" more than we'd like to think - and we'd certainly like to think that "morality" is not, in any way, associated with Christianity. It really isn't, of course, but we have been conditioned to believe this.

Altruism, like "Satanism", is, I believe, an ideal...

However, I think that the true definition of "altruism" can never truly be attained... even "self-sacrifice" involves a bit of the martyr, just as the "zoological" definition of altruism explains. (yeah, I looked it up)

We are still, in some strange silent way, but in every way, selfish creatures.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2372 - 11/28/07 12:51 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I also respect all strangers by default until they prove to me that they are unworthy of my respect (as opposed to the misanthropic other way round, where one feels people must earn their respect - an attitude I find to be detrimental to one's social success). Just remember that respect is lightyears away from love. "

I don't necessarly respect all strangers, I think that is kinda stupid. I am aware of people, and watch their behavior thus knowing the best way to interact with them in order to accomplish my goals.

True respect is earned, thru behavior. Actions speak louder than words. In other words, talk and words are cheap, and have no meaning unless they can be backed up with action.

Love is so different from respect. Its not even in the same catagory. The only thing I see them having in common is that they both have to be earned.



"even "self-sacrifice" involves a bit of the martyr"

I think self-sacrifice is just another name for the martyr complex or possibly instintual action when placed into a flight or fight situation.

I feel that Nothing is free, and that everything has its price.
Its like a trade off, how much/what you are willing to do to inorder to get the results you want.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#2382 - 11/28/07 06:43 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Altruism
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

Egoism
1. the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness (opposed to altruism).

courtesy of dictionary .com

To put it another way, Altruism simply defines honesty and genuity. Doing the decent thing by fellow individuals. Doing no harm. Loving and caring for your own and your chosen ones. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Whilst Egoism; is purely for reasons of self gratification; with no genuine concern for anything other than how they stand to benefit. And there is everything wrong with that.

Currently I'm studying Bach flower remedies, in short flower essences in sun energised water which deal with treating the 7 main emotional states.

One of the most complex issues to deal with is those with "Over concern for the welfare of others". People who present this particular state can NEVER do enough to help others. Leaving a trail of obligation in their wake. Always fussing and smothering all around them, manipulating and infiltrating the unsuspecting victim, sometimes along with their entire family, finances and social network. Passive aggressive, and in constant need of being told how wonderful they are. Very dangerous in their ability of sapping vitality out of their prey, and very swiftly at that..

As satanists we should be instantly aware of these types. We know them plain and straight. Psychic Vampires. And they are to be avoided at all costs. Not so fortunate are the individuals who are as yet unaware!

So it seems that altruism does most certainly exist, and it is indeed a very positive attribute. Would it not be the altruistic part of our nature that makes us better parents, friends, partners, colleagues etc. the list goes on. In summary it is what makes us decent and ethical human beings. Do we not care deeply about the above mentioned to the point we would help them in any way possible if they were in pain, or injured, or emotionally and mentally unwell? Of course we would.....

It is unfortunate that altruism has been confused with egoism, For those who believe that it simply does not exist, I am sorry for you. There obviously hasn't been enough kindness in your world. \:\(
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#2394 - 11/28/07 09:19 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
It is unfortunate that altruism has been confused with egoism, For those who believe that it simply does not exist, I am sorry for you. There obviously hasn't been enough kindness in your world.


So you are saying that I just need a little love and understanding? And underneath it all I'm just a scared little boy that didn't get enough attention?

 Quote:
So it seems that altruism does most certainly exist, and it is indeed a very positive attribute. Would it not be the altruistic part of our nature that makes us better parents, friends, partners, colleagues etc. the list goes on. In summary it is what makes us decent and ethical human beings. Do we not care deeply about the above mentioned to the point we would help them in any way possible if they were in pain, or injured, or emotionally and mentally unwell? Of course we would.....


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion that "altruism exists", but I'll let that one slide. This is quickly going to get into a semantics debate - but let me at least reply that we "care" for those people mentioned: We have an "interest" in them, for whatever reasons - if they are unwell, it would affect us on some scale. A sick stranger? Please cover your nose and mouth when you sneeze or cough...

How about relating this to a mathematical structure, like a segment of a parabola (or hyperbola? - never could get those right) - we can get closer, and closer to the ideal of "altruism", and display altruistic "behavior", but we never really cross the x-axis.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2396 - 11/28/07 09:39 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Agreed, although our actions may be compassionate and kind we do so because we want to be nice. We want the good feeling inside we get for helping someone else, and when it's someone we have an invested interest in such as a friend or partner, their happiness directly effects your happiness. When they are sad you will enjoy their company less so you want them to be happy. There's no shame in admitting this, you do truly care for them, it has become your problem so you feel a need to make it better to make yourself happy. It's the way of the human psyche. Sorry if that's a bitter pill for some people to swallow, after all it's not nice to think of oneself as selfish but it's just how we're wired.

Anything more would be semantics on the meanings of altruism and the exact stimuli in the brain, we don't need to be that thorough.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

Top
#2397 - 11/29/07 01:21 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
 Originally Posted By: daevid777

Perhaps we are bound to this "morality" more than we'd like to think - and we'd certainly like to think that "morality" is not, in any way, associated with Christianity. It really isn't, of course, but we have been conditioned to believe this.


i would disagree, "morality" changes from person to person, it the person is Christian could his forum of "morality" be part of his Christianity? "morality" to me doesn't exist just like "Good and Evil" to me there is only, what is good and bad for you or your morals. Once people start having dogmatic thinking and idea's, they have lost the idea of Satanism (by no means am i talking about you daevid777, i mean this in general).

For example, Anton LaVey, we all on stage playing a part, knowing who is pulling the strings (seeing though the parlor tricks). Most people would say this is common sense.

or Aleister Crowley, every man and woman is a star. Fundamentally, we are made up of same matter as stars. Most people would also say this is common sense.

so which one is right?

I would agree, Satanism is a gathering of idea's, over centuries old if not older, that predate Anton LaVey (which poeple don't like to think). the idea's can be found in Socrates, plato, Aristotle, John Locke, Herbert Spencer (Social Darwinism), Thomas Hobbes , Niccolò Machiavelli, mark twain, i can go on and on. but my point is that the idea (Satanism) selfishness or self interest can be found in them. also the counter point of Satanism, Altruism (selflessness) can be found in there as well.

Nothing is imposable, just highly improbable. is Altruism possible, realistically just a probable that there is self interest behind it.

I've always have like this quote
 Quote:
“The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal.”






_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

Top
#2403 - 11/29/07 02:52 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Thanks blackdragon...

But you mention Macchiavelli - his propositions were about "control", which is definitely not altruistic. He did, however, mention altruistic "behavior", which was ultimately utilized to further the command of the people. No "altruism" there, at all, I think. That was about "power", and "control" - words that don't often relate to a "true" version of "altruism" (a word I'm sick of now) in any ideal sense of the word (did I mention I'm sick of the word?).
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2407 - 11/29/07 08:02 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
You missed the point completely because you were obviously too busy orchestrating a defensive attack.

I also make it a rule never to assume or analyse. So the scared little boy is in your own head.

Oh and thanks for "letting that one slide" !!! Are you really that arrogant, or are you having a laugh at yourself?

Take a rescue remedy pastille and chill the hell out.
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#2428 - 11/29/07 09:20 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Hmmmm….. the Satanic dilemma? Should I be nice to everyone, should I go out of my way to help people?
Altruism…. An interesting concept indeed?
I think we have to return to some basic observations in nature to get this into perspective, without having to compare Satanism with Christianity (a Satanic no no in itself)!
As animals we behave in certain ways to achieve certain types of attention or recognition. This attention and recognition qualifies us with status in many instances, the top one being that of potential breeding partner. If we are seen to be ‘kind and friendly’ we a seen to be non-threatening. If we are seen to be generous with our wealth we may be seen as being wealthy (or irresponsible depending on ones knowledge of ones finances). If we are seen in general terms as one who helps than we may be also seen as one worthy of being helped.
As animals we truly do not do anything that does not serve us individuals or as a species.
However, the real dilemma we are having in present times is that there are certain individuals (be they Christian or otherwise) who have made themselves the enemy of our species.
They have sold our flesh and future for a small profit. It is their Christian Muslim Judaic apocalyptic belief in the pointlessness of existence that has encouraged them to treat the earth like one big pay toilet!

Top
#2432 - 11/30/07 01:59 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Zakary]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Perhaps I've been misunderstood. Sometimes it is difficult to get the full story on a screen.

All I was saying is that being a Satanist doesn't give you license to be an insensitive arrogant arsehole and not give a crap.

And that altruism isn't martyrdom. I wasn't saying "go trawl the streets looking for rambling hobo sitting in their own piss and shit to give all of your money to ", or did I? No I don't think so.


Edited by Circus_Hell (11/30/07 02:00 AM)
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#2433 - 11/30/07 03:32 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
Ordellani Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
I'm a Satanist - and quite frankly I enjoy playing the "asshole" role. If you don't like it that's your problem and you'll have to deal with the consequences of that decision.

Satanists act on impulse - and me being an asshole is generally who I am. In the words of Jack Malebranche "Put up, or shut up!"
_________________________
Founder - Ordellani Studios

Top
#2435 - 11/30/07 07:27 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Ordellani]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
 Quote:
All I was saying is that being a Satanist doesn't give you license to be an insensitive arrogant arsehole and not give a crap.


Yes, it does. Completely. It gives me all the freedom I want, and I'm responsible for any consequences. There is no altruistic obligation hanging over my head.

It's so fucking weak to believe that people should go out of their way to help others. Do it if you want, but getting upset because I don't follow the same rules is your fault, not mine.

And my point about respecting strangers...I mean it as though it were a dichotomy of only either respect or disrespect. One need not give true, passionate respect to a stranger, but to disrespect someone before they've even proven they deserve it is going to be detrimental to your own progress. I'm polite with strangers in general, but as soon as they prove they deserve otherwise, I permit myself to be the arsehole they deserve to reckon with. Unless, of course, feigning politeness will help me in some way. Hail the freedom of Satan.

Top
#2436 - 11/30/07 09:12 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
Ordellani Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
Not being polite to strangers upon first impression is counter-productive. I advocate respect upon first impression because you just never know how the said individual could possibly benefit you. I do, however, condone disrespect if you are not shown respect.
_________________________
Founder - Ordellani Studios

Top
#2437 - 11/30/07 11:25 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Ordellani]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Satanism gives you the license to be an asshole, it doesn't however make it mandatory. Treating people like shit rarely helps anyone so why do it? That's always been my opinion.

I treat people courteously when I meet them, after I've known them for a while they often earn my respect via things they do and say. Often they have bad qualities but I try to concentrate on the better qualities of people. If they do things that make me disrespect them they will likely never recover in my eyes. Someone who is closed minded for example would have to show that they have grown and changed, matured in a manner than has opened their eyes. Then I will have respect for them.

Either way, I tend to treat all people courteously as they can often benefit me in some manner. Those with my respect see a different side of me. They see me treating them with true respect, which is often bad as I'm more likely to tell someone I respect their downfalls and be more brutally honest with them than I would otherwise.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

Top
#2445 - 11/30/07 03:02 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"All I was saying is that being a Satanist doesn't give you license to be an insensitive arrogant arsehole and not give a crap."

Yes, it does. Most Satanist have the ability to think, and be aware, and choose what to give a Damn about.
I don't give a crap about a lot of petty insignificant shit, cause at the end of the day its not worth it.

As with the others who posted, I agree that my interactions with individuals depend on what is the best result/outcome for me.

How I treat my close friends is different from how I treat my aquaintances, and very different from how I treat those strangers that I do not know.

Dont ask how I treat/treated my stalkers.

If it doesn't affect you on a personal level why give the extra energy to care?

"And that altruism isn't martyrdom."
My point was that to some people its the same thing.

In the end its just a matter of what you the individual choose to care about/or do. Everyones reasons why or why not are different.

There is no law that says you have to give a shit about anything at all.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#2448 - 11/30/07 04:49 PM 'Respect' [Re: Bid]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Bid
I also respect all strangers by default until they prove to me that they are unworthy of my respect (as opposed to the misanthropic other way round, where one feels people must earn their respect - an attitude I find to be detrimental to one's social success). Just remember that respect is lightyears away from love.


This is very close to my view.
I feel that respect is earned - however, it runs both ways.
Disrespect also has to be earned.

Semantic problems arise here because the word 'respect' is ambiguous and emotionally charged.
The dictionary.com definitions essentially boil down to these two revelant meanings of the word 'respect':

1. Esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: "I have great respect for her judgment."

2. Proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: "Respect for the elderly."

Esteem, the first kind of respect, is conditional. It depends on a person's relationship to oneself. Esteem is earned. Strangers can be considered neutral in terms of esteem.
This also has its antithesis, contempt, which is also earned and conditional. A person who acts like an asshole gains one's contempt, which may affect one's behaviour towards them (perhaps tempered by rational self-control).

Acceptance is the second kind of respect, translating into courtesy and acknowledgment in the social sphere.
Altruism is not even necessary here - treating fellow humans with courtesy and accepting the reality of who they are is necessary to some extent for the survival of the individual.

Nietzsche stressed the importance of respect for one's enemies.
This doesn't mean not kicking the shit out of them - should this be one's desired goal with all consequences of one's actions rationally taken into account - but merely accepting the reality of who and what they are, with their strengths as well as weaknesses.

As Nietzsche put it:
 Quote:

"Enemy" you shall say, but not "villain," "invalid" you shall say, but not "wretch," "fool" you shall say, but not "sinner."


Empathy is also important here - not to be confused with sympathy. Empathy means the ability to get inside a person's head and see things from their perspective, to understand their motivations and feelings. I needn't stress the old cliche 'know your enemy' - freeing oneself of prejudice of one's enemy can lead to a broader working knowledge of them - leading to personal power and insight in one's encounters with them, to be turned to one's advantage!


Edited by Mequa (11/30/07 04:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Link

Top
#2451 - 11/30/07 06:58 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Ordellani Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
Most Satanist have the ability to think


No. ALL Satanists have the ability to think. ALL humans have the ability to think. What most of societies back-wash lacks is the capacity.
_________________________
Founder - Ordellani Studios

Top
#2472 - 12/01/07 03:47 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Ordellani]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Jesus... I couldn't stand to read all that crap - but I tried...

How about this: Fuck you "Circus Hell"!! I understand your bullshit arguments, but I think you were missing a much larger perspective than you are capable of understanding. A "defensive attack" is a contradiction of terms - you make no sense.

Altruism, like "God", is dead. And, like "God", it never actually existed, and it never will. I'm recommending you start reading the New Testament again... 'cause that's where you got this crazy idea in the first place.

Good luck.

Everybody else, sorry - apologies all around, you are all fantastic.

David.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2475 - 12/01/07 02:47 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Altruism has never been a xtian ideal! I've met more people of "other" religious persuasions that were the embodiment of altruism than I have met xtians that believe in altruism. What is so wrong with having such a positive quality such as this one? Does it make you feel Satanically inferior knowing that you have the capacity for unconditional kindness? Don't get me wrong, we do believe in kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates, but that's not what we mean by altruism. I think everyone deserves kindness until they show you a reason not to be. Would you want everyone being a jack-ass to you for no reason at all other than the fact that they feel that you don't deserve their kindness? I think that's absolutely ludicrous. Most people regardless of religious persuasion are straight up assholes to boot because they are only concerned about themselves. I thought we were a different breed. Shouldn't we aspire to be people that don't fit the common mold? Doing nice things for people is cool because no one else does it anymore. You either continue the cycle or you break it.
Top
#2476 - 12/01/07 03:49 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Hmmmmmmmmm, is everyone in Texas as friendly as you daevid? And the "fuck you" comment, well thank you but you would certainly need to take me to dinner first ;\)

Edited by Circus_Hell (12/01/07 03:53 PM)
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#2483 - 12/02/07 01:04 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Your words are true, Hellbent666, I don't disagree.

I was merely playing "devil's advocate"... I do things all the time that would seem "altruistic", and sometimes I do them for no "reason" at all. I understand what you mean.

However, I was making an attempt at "introspection", looking at the things I might do, or others might do, for the "good" of another "human". Dissection, if you don't mind the term... microsociology maybe.

Like you, I have helped people "out of the goodness of my heart", with no expectations of reward or thanks... but if we look much closer... why? I'm truly not the asshole I may seem on these "virtual" pages, I just think we need to look at this thing objectively, and sincerely.

There are two words that can open up a whole can of shit here.

p.s. - as for "Satanist" - I'm no good, I'm a bad Satanist... I've taken the beautifully simple writings of Mr. LaVey, and created something altogether different - I'm a "Protestant Satanist" - yeah, that sounds good.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2484 - 12/02/07 01:10 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas


I insulted my self and you by that comment - I am sorry.

No, people in Texas are much more dangerous... we carry big guns and wear spurs.

Honestly, I wanted to pull the plug on that post - and I dreaded it ever going out. More apologies to you...

And, Bravo - nice response.

Yes, dinner first my dear, I would try my best to be a gentleman. I can cook as well... tell me your favorite, and I will serve it up fresh as I suck on the foot that is imbeded in my mouth.

Good show. Shame on me.

David.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2510 - 12/03/07 03:06 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
Why thank you David.

And not to worry, I am well informed about the craziness of Texas. We have T.V and books down here now. Actually we've had them for a while \:\) Which is why I wasn't too bothered by your answers. I'd have the shits if I lived in the desert too. It's too damn hot to be anything other than cranky.

I'll have to continue later, a violent electrical storm means shut down.

Ciao
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#2512 - 12/03/07 07:26 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Circus_Hell]
Bid Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Cardiff, UK
 Quote:
I think everyone deserves kindness until they show you a reason not to be. Would you want everyone being a jack-ass to you for no reason at all other than the fact that they feel that you don't deserve their kindness?


There are more than the two choices of showing kindness and being a jackass. How about, being indifferent? At least that way you're showing respect for another's independence and responsibility.

Top
#2523 - 12/03/07 07:18 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Bid]
Circus_Hell Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Sydney Australia
I love indifference, and apathy. Apathy as in disengaging when I refuse to get involved in something. I do love the fact that our chosen path allows us not to take shit, and to quietly annihilate those who fuck with us.

Was I by no means saying spread the love unconditionally, that's just stupid. I was simply saying that we would do almost anything to see that our chosen ones are OK, and that if someone was in distress, and in genuine need, I would offer assistance where possible if I choose to do so PROVIDED that it did not impede my own well being (which I consider the most important)

I'm over this thread now hahahaha

That's it from me \:\)


Edited by Circus_Hell (12/03/07 07:35 PM)
Edit Reason: i
_________________________
Too Many Idiots, not enough bullets

Top
#5707 - 03/15/08 06:14 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
However you define the word it seems that altruism actually is part of not only human nature, but to be found througout the natural world.

A book that I recently read, brought up the topic of altruism in nature, which is what made me do a little more research on the subject. There's alot out there about it, but I thought I'd throw a couple of links in here for anyone interested.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060529_altruism.htm

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060527/note16.asp

I think the best example of altruism that is totally selfless is when someone puts their life in danger or even looses it, to help protect or save someone else that is not a reletive or lover.

A little while back in Australia a man tried to stop another man that was beating a woman in public. He got shot and died for his trouble. This woman was a total stranger. I find it hard to think he did this to feel good about himself. Seems more like he did it because he saw something he thought was wrong. He could have just walked past as everyone else was doing. So that would make acts of heroism acts of altruism in my mind.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
#5713 - 03/15/08 09:07 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I have read a bit on evolutionary psychology and biosociology in connection to my study. Some of the theories are very interesting in connection to an understanding of belief and morality. Some argues that the human brain evolved in a social setting. According to this theory or brains grew not because of a change in diet, or paralleled by our use of tools, but paralleled to the evolving social skills. Humans are very weak alone without a community, and in the stone age a human could not survive alone for long. Corporation was a must, the better individuals and groups worked together, handled conflict, shared recurses etc. the bigger chance of survival. Today our human brain is very much a social brain, and most of the time we even read social relations into non-social relations (like when religious people blame god or the devil when a harvest fails because of bad wetter).

When you look at social groups of chimpanzees you see that they share food, but not with everyone. They share food with other apes who share with them, and in the long run they give and receive the same amount of food. Aggressive behaver make them less inclined to share with an individual and pro-social behavior like grooming make them more inclined to sharing. Chimpanzees also have a lot of ways to deal with aggression and fights. The whole group could get hurt and die if conflict could not be controlled, so social groups have to be able to deal with this. Chimpanzees probably have a lot of the same social skills that pro-humans had before our brains evolved and we became even more socially skilled. Some of the social skills are more or less instinktive, but most have to be learned (those of you who have kids knows this as a fact).

Pacal Boyer, a sociologist, argues that altruism would only be a evolutionary advantage in some circumstances, and it need to be an advantage to have evolved. The theory goes, that it is only a evolutionary advantage to collaborate if you are able to remember and recognize those who you can trust and weed out cheaters. If cheaters are not dealt with in a very aggressive way they would have an evolutionary advantage and breed out the collaborators. Altruism is a way to show that you are a good collaborater, and being able to look like one is very important for social animals who are dependent on collaboration. When you leave a tip without having to, act fair in a deal without having to do so by law and so on your are actually making your self look like a good partner for further collaboration (good guys badges DO work). You don't think about it, but most people who act altruistic receive a reward in the form of a good feeling making them even more inclined to act altruism and even better at finding collaboration in the future.

When you look at primitive societies witches are viewed and hated as as cheaters who get without giving back. One could argue that satanists are cheaters too, because we manipulate to get what we want without feeling obliged to act fair. On the other hand, satanists too have to be able to look like good collaborators as long as we live in a society, and we also have to collaborate. If you don't pay your taxes, don't pay the milkman, don't do your job right etc. you are left without a home, without a job, without money and without friends. LaVey talked about psychic vampires. I guess that was his term for cheaters, and I also guess that most satanists would not look kindly on cheaters if they where the ones being cheated. Cheating is not “morally wrong”, but it is hard to make a living without being caught, and it is hard to get by without some sort of social connections and collaboration.

Look of Pascal Boyers book “Religion explained” if you want to read more about the evolution of morality and about religion and religious ideas as a “parasite” on our social brain.

- Amina

Top
#11749 - 09/22/08 09:12 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I'm convinced altruism exists for having practised it.

True & pure altruism is quite rare however. I count on my fingers the number of times I really did a put act of altruisim.

Pure altruisme is sourced by love. One time I made a gift to a friend of me. It was a pure "intuition" that it was what I had to do at that time. It was not prepared, it wasn'tb a gift I bought for some special occasion. I just gave my sun glasses to her without worrying if I would need them afterwards.

If you manage to do a pure altruist act, you'll never regret it afterwards even if your friend betray you later. Buddhists would say "you produce no karma" when acting like that. You just follow you gut feelings, younatural force who told you to just give & forget.

Satanist are generous with their friends, they can be altruist...

Top
#11750 - 09/22/08 09:59 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Yes, but is it considered true altruism when the act of giving pleases you? That means the act is not entirely unselfish, and therefore is not true altruism. Mother Teresa was considered an altruist, but I bet she mostly helped people because it made her feel good inside, apart from her considering it her mission from God.

Altruism and selfishness are inextricably linked, and to try and separate the two into separate motivations (ie altruism = "good", selfishness = "bad") only serves to create unnecessary confusion.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

Top
#11759 - 09/23/08 07:05 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
You couldn't have said it better Nemesis \:\)

Being nice and making gifts to people we like is a source of pleasure for us ; so in fact altruism is not that altruist xD But things are good this way, you can please yourself and someone you like at the same time ; and if the aforementioned dude is a real friend ; next time he will be the one who makes a gift to you.

Well I guess Mother Teresa wasn't hoping gifts back from people she helped ; but the feeling of helping them must have been important enough to her ; on top of that she thought she did it for God.

Personnally I wouldn't spend much time working in an association to help hobos, old people or whatever. I could help from time to time, if an occasion occurs, but would certainly not make it a part of my life. I'm generous with my friends I know don't exploit it and would give it back to me. Being too nice without knowing the people perfectly can make you become a free delivery store without even noticing it.
_________________________
In the end everyone dies...

Top
#11767 - 09/23/08 10:38 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Impius]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well,

First true altruisme is quite rare (max 10 times in 41 years in my case) so no real danger to be vampirised.

2nd, yes the experience is quite pleasant, indeed. BUT you don't do it in this goal. You do it "naturally". You don't expect any return from it. Neither from your friend neither from God (perhaps like Mother Theresa ;\) ).

Finally, I'm convinced that gifts made in this way are "special". The person who receives it feel that there is something special. He/she will be touched in his/her heart.

Now suppose that this friend betrays you! \:\(
First this friend has now to be considered as an ennemy
2nd, you will not regret you gift as you did not expect any return. If you give smthing expecting some return and then you're batrayed, then it hurts !
3rd, there are great chances that you former friend will have regrets to have betrayed someone who really loved him/her (I said altruisme is sustained/sourced by love in my 1st post - see also the topic I created on Love & Hate where I give my definition of love...) These regrets might be incouncious, causing your ennemy to be in a unhappy or sad mood without knowing exactly why.

Finally, your ennemy probably knows that as a Satanist you will never give him it again.
He tasted how you can be generous and it's his curse !
If you really want to take some pleasure in your revenge, just give anything to your true friend in the presence of your new ennemy!

Machiavelic isn't it ?

Top
#12512 - 10/11/08 07:42 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Not only is 'altruism' not compatible with Satanism, it isn't compatible with reality

Much like perfection, altruism only exists within the confines of semantics.

People simply do not act without the expectation of some form of reward.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12604 - 10/13/08 05:15 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I disagree. People do act without the expectation of reward, sometimes they act with the expectation of quite the opposite, punnishment.

I agree with Fabiano though that it is rare and not something we all do all the time. What is more, some of us NEVER do it, neither should we HAVE to.

If it comes naturally to you though, why should Satanism be so determined to have people NOT do it? It is these little things that I find stop Satanism from having wider appeal.

Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also. Just because you don't aren't naturally altruistic, doesn't mean that it's not compatible with reality, it's just not compatible with YOUR reality.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
#12611 - 10/13/08 07:45 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I disagree. People do act without the expectation of reward, sometimes they act with the expectation of quite the opposite, punnishment.

Give me an example.
 Quote:

Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also. Just because you don't aren't naturally altruistic, doesn't mean that it's not compatible with reality, it's just not compatible with YOUR reality.

I don't think you are defining altruism properly.
Altruism doesn't just mean 'doing nice things'
I do things for people I care about all the time. Because seeing them happy makes me feel good. Man as an animal just doesn't act, period, unless it is to fulfill a value. I defy you to give me an example of pure altruism.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12614 - 10/13/08 08:05 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Agreed Zeph ! \:\)

 Quote:
Satanism shouldn't be about just accepting the dark side, it's not wrong to accept the good also.


But here I think there is a confusion between the pairs Dark Side/Bright Side and Good/Evil.

I personaly view the Dark Side as synonym of Left Hand Path. The imagery of the RHP is bright with a lot of light everywhere. Our is dark, what a surprise!

Good & Evil are harder to define but I'm sure everybody can "feel it".
I think that the RHP preach the you should do good things to everybody and never do bad/evil ones.
The LHP is for doing good things to friends and evil to ennemies.
In other words, we love our friends but not our ennemies.
Altruism is "a good thing" as per the above, that's all.

Finally, DD, Altruism is not perfection but true altruism is (close to?) perfection. That's why it's so rare.
A mother giving milk to her baby (human or not) couldn't be viewed as an altruist behaviour/act? Even if the animal is "intinct driven" the behaviour remains altruist. For a human mother, sure she'll be happy when her baby will smile instead of crying once fed. BUT does she do this in that goal? I have no kids, I can't answer on this, but I really experienced true altruism (believe me or not).

Satanists are not evil! We do not promote murder, rape, crime, etc just because it's evil!
We're kind with our firends and hard with our ennemies, after that, each individual satanist lives this in his day to day life as he wants... (sometimes being good, sometimes being evil)

Follow your gut feeling to know what to do, use your brain to find how to do it!

Fabiano

Top
#12617 - 10/13/08 08:19 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Finally, DD, Altruism is not perfection but true altruism is (close to?) perfection. That's why it's so rare.

Arg there is that meaningless word again! *squashes the word perfection under a heavy book*
 Quote:

A mother giving milk to her baby (human or not) couldn't be viewed as an altruist behaviour/act?

Well, no. It is proven that the brain releases dopamine when a mother is nursing.
 Quote:

Satanists are not evil! We do not promote murder, rape, crime, etc just because it's evil!

I don't promote 'evil' at all. However just being what and who I am makes me 'evil' to many.


Edited by Dan_Dread (10/13/08 08:20 PM)
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12642 - 10/14/08 08:28 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
Yes, but getting your dose of dopamine hardly is the motivator in feeding your child. It seems like one should feel completely empty for the good deed to be counted as altruistic...
If I open a door to a stranger, I don't do because I expect a warm feeling from doing so. If I happened to get one, it can not suddenly be counted as the motivator behind the act.

Top
#12645 - 10/14/08 01:30 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
In the case of the mother, it is only the very first time she nurses she would not be aware of the 'warm fuzzy' that would result. But that doesn't really matter, because she is already acting according to her values by nursing the baby at all, rather than throwing it out the nearest window.
This is a poor example though because biological motivators that transcend rational choice are at play here.

The 'reward' does not have to come after the act. Often the reward is knowing what you are doing will make you feel better than doing the alternative.

In all honesty the closest example I have ever been able to come up with of pure altruism is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades. (which, outside of the movies, has probably never actually happened)
But even in this example, the soldier would value his comrades more than his own life (a very odd situation indeed!) and therefore would still be gravitating towards the most rewarding choice.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12667 - 10/14/08 08:11 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I think there is always a mean to find some kind of reward in any action.

After all, when we act we always have a "good reason" to act this way. Or it was instinctive, and fullfiling the pulsion is rewarding. Or it's rationally decided and having the assurance of making the good choice, doing the right thing could also be viewed as rewarding. So any act has some kind of rewarding inherently in it. So no act is altruist!
This answers the initial question...

But an other acceptation of altruism emerged from the thread which is closer to the general idea people have bout "altruism". See Hellbent666 post & Daevid777 answer above in this thread to see what I mean.

The point of view adopted in the initial question is introspective, looking at the motivations of the individual.
The other point of view is behavioural, like looking at the individual and to what he gives and get from an external point of view. In this later acceptation, satanists are known to be "altruist" with their friends but not with their ennemies.

Top
#12714 - 10/15/08 05:30 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
give me an example


actually if you'd bothered to read the whole thread (actually four or five posts above your own would do), you would see I already have, but for your sake here it is again.

However you define the word it seems that altruism actually is part of not only human nature, but to be found througout the natural world.

 Quote:
A book that I recently read, brought up the topic of altruism in nature, which is what made me do a little more research on the subject. There's alot out there about it, but I thought I'd throw a couple of links in here for anyone interested.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060529_altruism.htm

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060527/note16.asp

I think the best example of altruism that is totally selfless is when someone puts their life in danger or even looses it, to help protect or save someone else that is not a reletive or lover.

A little while back in Australia a man tried to stop another man that was beating a woman in public. He got shot and died for his trouble. This woman was a total stranger. I find it hard to think he did this to feel good about himself. Seems more like he did it because he saw something he thought was wrong. He could have just walked past as everyone else was doing. So that would make acts of heroism acts of altruism in my mind.


I'm not saying that some people don't do 'good' to try and get warm fuzzy's, but I think 'most' people want to help others because deep down, most of us know that we also may need some help ourselves someday (if not already).

They say admitting you need help is one of the hardest things to do and I beleive that. With my poor health, I have to accept help that I would never have accepted 10 years ago.
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
#12718 - 10/15/08 06:00 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Humm.

Let's take a look at the standard definition of altrusim

 Quote:

1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

If you don't like this definition, present a different one. However, you will notice the key descriptor will always be selfless or unselfish. Again I say there is no such thing as a selfless action insofar as human animals are concerned.
 Quote:

but I think 'most' people want to help others because deep down, most of us know that we also may need some help ourselves someday (if not already).

Your example is one of displayed empathy, not altruism. The man in that scenario was acting because it REALLY BOTHERED HIM to see the woman in peril. Maybe he has a wife, or a daughter. Ultimately he was acting in his own interest and to satisfy his own values.

Altruism is a myth, there are only humans and their interests.

I really think we agree on everything but semantics.



Edited by Nemesis (10/15/08 08:19 PM)
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12741 - 10/15/08 10:31 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
In all honesty the closest example I have ever been able to come up with of pure altruism is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades. (which, outside of the movies, has probably never actually happened)
But even in this example, the soldier would value his comrades more than his own life (a very odd situation indeed!)


Ever hear of the highest award bestowed upon a soldier by the US Government? The Congressional Medal of Honor. Just a small amount of research would probably blow your mind at the sacrifice and heroism these soldiers displayed in the line of combat. Here is but one example of a soldier falling on a grenade to save his men. I could list more, but why should I do your work?

ANDERSON, RICHARD BEATTY

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 26 June 1921, Tacoma, Wash. Accredited to: Washington. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving with the 4th Marine Division during action against enemy Japanese forces on Roi Island, Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, 1 February 1944. Entering a shell crater occupied by 3 other marines, Pfc. Anderson was preparing to throw a grenade at an enemy position when it slipped from his hands and rolled toward the men at the bottom of the hole. With insufficient time to retrieve the armed weapon and throw it, Pfc. Anderson fearlessly chose to sacrifice himself and save his companions by hurling his body upon the grenade and taking the full impact of the explosion. His personal valor and exceptional spirit of loyalty in the face of almost certain death were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

Top
#12743 - 10/15/08 10:38 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
A superior human being in my book is Ssgt. Sweezer who was an N.C.O.I.C. in my platoon has a huge chunk blown out of his leg for performing that very act along with an awe inspiring performance in Panama and Desert Storm, so.......yeh. ;\)
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

Top
#12752 - 10/16/08 03:32 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Altruism becomes a bit confusing when it comes to humans, probably because we can't seperate humans from choice and identity. Acts like these are amazing or admirable, depending on whom judges them.

But acts like these happen in nature all the time and although it is also called altruistic behavior there, one can seriously doubt the amount of free will involved by the animals subject to it.

To me altruism is just a genetic remnant, which can be witnessed lightly in friendship and love, and more in acts like these. For a human it sure isn't a logical act but we're probably far from being logical creatures.

D.

Top
#12786 - 10/17/08 10:23 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Acts like these are amazing or admirable, depending on whom judges them.

Well that's certainly a false dichotomy. :P

I would say 'stupid'

Ok, perhaps 'amazingly stupid'
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12789 - 10/17/08 11:44 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If I'd throw myself on a grenade I'd call it amazingly stupid yeah but I don't necessarily consider it stupid when others do it.

Fact is, we need behavior like this. A society at war with others can greatly benefit from heroism and maybe that is why it is cultivated throughout history. You don't get very far in warfare when every soldier has self-preservation in mind. You'd end up with both sides running into the wrong direction all the time.

So propagating the hero-meme is a wise thing to do for a society.

D.

Top
#12792 - 10/17/08 11:57 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

You don't get very far in warfare when every soldier has self-preservation in mind.

Exactly. Then the people with something to gain from the war would have to fight themselves wouldn't they? This of course is NEVER the case.

How do you get a group of people to become your own personal murder squad without feeding them a lot of bullshit ideals?

"The strong rule over the weak, but the clever rules them all"
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12801 - 10/17/08 04:43 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
BloodHorn Offline
member


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
"The strong rule over the weak, but the clever rules them all"
How true that is. Awsome quote Dan.
I almost joined the Army, But I decided not. Overall I felt it wasn't for me. I'm not a AM kinda guy. I would rather be still working at AM. I know they have jobs for night time, But my luck they wouldn't give it to me. Plus if I was going to do it I would go infantry
Dan aren't you in the service?
_________________________
Fuck You And Your Thoughts, I Have My own
Hail The Swords Of Darkness

Top
#12802 - 10/17/08 04:59 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: BloodHorn]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
LOL I would sooner burn out my eyes with a hot iron than willingly become a government pawn \:\)
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12804 - 10/17/08 05:44 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
BloodHorn Offline
member


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
Haha. I guess that is a another reason I didn't join. Plus I didn't want to go to Iraq.
I could of sworn I had seen someone posting stuff about military shit. Maybe it wasn't you. Maybe it was.
But I wanted to be on the Army's boxing team as well as infantry. Glad I didn't join. Would of been the biggest mistake of my life. I would probably be in Iraq, Or maybe even dead.
Speaking of Iraq; I'm so glad to see gasoline going back down, That 4 bucks a gallon was killing me.
_________________________
Fuck You And Your Thoughts, I Have My own
Hail The Swords Of Darkness

Top
#12858 - 10/19/08 11:58 AM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: blackdragon31560]
Phaethon Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 78
Everything is truly done for self interest. Someone who acts like a mother Teresa and goes through self pain and struggle to help others is (unknowing to themselves) a masochist. Look at simpler animal who do "good things" for their kind. Animals that care for their young only do so because it is in the interest of their species, something that exists in a species for the species and by the species.

Simply enacting your "free will" is acting in self interest. Anything you do on purpose is in self interest. Our actions are only designated by an advanced systems of wants and needs. I only assume that we have free will to do something that we want (and can) do. A person cannot walk if the body does not want to walk. If someone wants to eat, they make the choice on whether to eat or not. But even if you force yourself to do something that would not be naturally wanted, such as to hurt yourself, you want to do it, therefor you can chose to do it.

Everything we do conciously is enacting our wants and therefore out self interests. So is what we do when we are not fully in control. By controlling ourselves, we are doing what we want, we are living for self interest, we are paying worship to ourselves.

By typing this, I have done what I wanted and acted in my own self interest.
_________________________
My God & I are one & the same,
We have the same face we have the same name.

Top
#12862 - 10/19/08 12:22 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Phaethon]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
EXACTLY!
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#12883 - 10/19/08 04:40 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Josh, my frind. You are smarter than most adults I know.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

Top
#13152 - 10/21/08 08:35 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I rarely seen such common conclusion in a thread. It seem that our posts are really converging, look for instance what I posted earlier :
 Quote:
After all, when we act we always have a "good reason" to act this way. Or it was instinctive, and fullfiling the pulsion is rewarding. Or it's rationally decided and having the assurance of making the good choice, doing the right thing could also be viewed as rewarding. So any act has some kind of rewarding inherently in it. So no act is altruist!
This answers the initial question...


The post of Phaeton raised a new question in my mind : could altruism be in the interrest of the species and its existence justified by this?
Note: here altruism has to be understood as the "common acceptation" (see my post above). In other words, things that appeared or seems to be altruism.

A last example I would like to evoke : Chimp female do "baby sittting" in order the mother has "free time" to collect food.
Can it be viewed as a specie trick ?
Does the Chimp has a notion of self ? How to intrepret "unselfishness" for him then?
Does she have the capacity to calculate that if I don't do it for the others, the other will not do it for me?
Would it be fool to imagine that we inherited those kind of altruist behaviour from our ancestors?
Aren't we usually pleased to see a smiling baby and hurted or disgusted by seeing starving childs? So, we would be naturally pushed to take care of others or "help others in not starving"?

What do you think ?


Edited by Fabiano (10/21/08 08:39 PM)

Top
#13161 - 10/21/08 09:28 PM Re: Altruism and Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Phaethon Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 78
All I can really say is that animals usually keep a closer "society" then humans do. When they make that leap as a species to work together, they are incredibly dependent on others. They would most likely adopt a policy of helping each other, "ill watch your kid, then you watch mine." It was obviously more primal than that, but since it worked, these animal societies grew and became more common and effective than independent living.
_________________________
My God & I are one & the same,
We have the same face we have the same name.

Top
Page all of 5 12345>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.056 seconds of which 0.003 seconds were spent on 76 queries. Zlib compression disabled.