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#17056 - 12/28/08 07:08 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The reason why we humans dominate the earth is partly due to luck, partly due to us being able to adapt artificially. While other lifeforms have to rely on lucky mutations that give their genes an edge in conditions like sudden climate change, we humans can imagine future conditions and anticipate before they are happening. In some way we are ahead of other animals simply because abstract reasoning gives us that edge in what is essentially a game of throwing dies.
This edge and the direct and genetic benefit is why we invested so much in our brains. Although not invested as in consciously driven. Smart people tend to survive better than dumb in natural conditions and following from that, they will outproduce them. In artificial conditions (like societies and civilizations) which protect all alike, it can be argued that dumb will outproduce smart again. After all, if there is no natural culling mechanism, inevitably the average will dominate the above-average simply by outproducing them. Therefor the best (and inevitable) thing to happen is a collapse of civilizations. I think this might be interpreted as a cyclic history and explain why after periods of enlightenment we have periods of darkness and stagnation.

But even with those ups and downs, we'll have a gradual process towards what I see as an improved condition. Still, this evolved condition doesn't necessarily lead to a metaphysical condition, at least none that can't, at one point, be artificially created. Where you seem to twist the point, is at the level of fear. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that much of everything metaphysical, whether it is religious, superstitious or pseudo-scientic is exactly there because of fear. Humans were indeed inquisitive but what happens when they arrived at questions that couldn't be directly or logically answered (or were to hard to handle) is that they started to build explanations that at the same time provided comfort zones. Regard it as what some tell kids when their pet died: little bunny is in bunny heaven now. It's exactly that what we have done for ages; invent theories and explanations that give some degree of comfort to people being afraid of certain anwers to certain questions. One of the first severe problems lifeforms that develop a self encounter is the realization that there was a point before the self and there will be a point after the self. What they also realized was that life is brutal and not fair at all. So they have developed answers to address that problem and build comfortable explanations. They are all build to handle fear. Throughout history those explanations have evolved and became bigger and more complex but the basic routine in it is still finding and providing comfort and surpress fear.
So without twisting this concept, one has to conclude that a materialist is essentially more brave in being able to disrupt those illusions and see life and his position in it without that blanket.

I worked with a Muslim once and at one point he asked me what my religion was. I told him I don't believe and he answered; that's really tough. I didn't think much of it then but he was right. It is so much easier to think there is someone out there loving you, or being part of a great plan or having some options out there after this.

So essentially I do think that your claim it being so much easier to embrace nothing is you trying to turn the weakness of needing comfort in an intellectual statement of strength, which I fail to see in it.

D.

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#17066 - 12/28/08 01:30 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada


Hey look there, chicky, it was you that painted the ridiculous dichotomy that was patently nothing more than a thinly veiled insult to those that do not accept your fantastical belief system at face value. Do you even read the unfocused stream of consciousness crap that you write, or does it just flow out of you like so much unexamined diarrhea?

My point was very valid, in that the picture you painted was utter bullshit and NEEDED clarification.
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#17067 - 12/28/08 02:00 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
Youíve just illustrated my point exceptionally well. Some of us are actually capable of having an intelligent conversation without resorting to immaturity and insults. For all the posts you decide to make on this forum, it would be nice if they actually contributed something more meaningful than one-line comments and reiterating the obvious. Unlike you I put some thought into what I have to say, and I have never insulted anyone simply for not sharing my point of view. Just because you fail to comprehend something does not mean it is ďbullshitĒ to anyone else, it just means that YOU have failed to comprehend it. Seriously, stop acting so immature. This forum is supposed to be about the intelligent exchange of ideas, and not everyone is going to have the same opinion. You either need to learn to live with that or find somewhere more suited to your line of conversing.
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#17071 - 12/28/08 02:18 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Oh yes..the forum is literally filled with great content you have contributed..unlike me with all my one liners.

Anyway, I started out being civil to you, but you continually drone on about ridiculous shit and when called on it continually retreat into abstractions and insults,ignoring all levels of reasonable discourse while all the while pretending there is some level of empirical grounding to what you say. It's dishonest and just because you seem to think you are attractive is not enough reason to smile and nod along.

It would be different if somewhere in your thousand word posts there was some sort of logic or structured argument or ANYTHING for me to sink my teeth into, but there just isn't. It's all fluff. Let's sum up what you have had to say so far:

"I believe in the afterlife because I feel like I should, and no amount of reasonable discourse will break my faith"

How's that for a one liner?
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#17072 - 12/28/08 02:20 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
Diavolo, I do respect your opinion even though I may not entirely agree with it. You say a lot of what Iím thinking, even if we do disagree on some points. Iíve always looked at those belonging to organized religions, blinding following the bible or any other religious text as being foolish and weak for the same reasons you described. Anyone can write a book and claim that it was divinely inspired. Why people would choose to blindly adhere to the written word of some imaginary being is something I have never personally been able to comprehend. But the beliefs I hold are based on what I have witnessed and experienced personally. They have nothing to do with imaginary beings, dogma, religion. I walk though life building on those experiences, reasoning, questioning, wanting to understand. Call it a quest for enlightenment or just an unusual personality trait, itís just the way Iíve always been.

To some I think it makes sense to spend their existence focused purely on the material, for others such of myself, well, I just want to know more. As a Satanist I donít think thereís anything unnatural about that. LaVeyís philosophies are very logical and well-written, which was what drew me to them more than a decade ago. Iíve always believed that life is for the experience, something that should be indulged in with responsibility. You only have so much time here, so you might as well make the most of it. With that being said we all have different types of interests. One of mine just happens to be a desire to understand, even the most taboo of subjects.

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#17075 - 12/28/08 02:38 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
But of course we all have different interests and there is nothing wrong with being inquisitive and trying to find answers to questions. It's not as if I was born as "material D." I've had my share of interests and dwelling and finding light in certain subjects. I also had my share of experiences which I first explained in a totally different perspective than I do nowadays. If I see people talk about ritual and stuff, it gives me goosebumps and I think; djeez. The same as when I see people talk about afterlife or ghosts, UFOs, god or even things like the electric universe but essentially I do not see it as unsatanic or unnatural. At worst I see it as not logical or ungrounded. It's the very logic, lack of logic and evidence or the total absurdity of certain subjects that made me find my answers. And although I do say my answers, I am convinced that in many subjects those are the true answers. I also would like to know more but find the material level so complex and eloquently explained that I do not see the need to spend time investigating beyond it. Some things are just not worth spending too much time at because you will never find the right answers. And some thoughts are potentially very dangerous because they include consequences that trigger effects that are negative to one's will or choice. So I prefer to accept the most plausible or logical answer and go with that. I can be wrong and I'm not so close minded that when I am wrong, I'll stick to my previous position. I'll adapt but to make me adapt, they not only need a pretty good argument, they also need to provide me evidence.

I consider nothing taboo. This forum might give a warped view on what is taboo but in reality, NOT believing in afterlife or NOT believing in ghosts seems to be a bigger taboo than believing in it all. The scientific, material or logical views are in reality the minority. But they have the most weight because they inevitably destroy most arguments in favor.

D.

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#17076 - 12/28/08 02:44 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
If you are going to comment on the entire thread and what Iíve written here, you may actually want to read the entirety of it or not comment at all. Several of the things you just stated directly contradict what has already been said.


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
you continually drone on about ridiculous shit and when called on it continually retreat into abstractions and insults


Iíve never insulted anyone for having an opinion of their own and not agreeing with mine. Thatís something you made up, and you wonít find it anywhere on this thread. So if youíre going to make accusations, at least have something to back them up with. In reality youíre the one trying to do all the insulting. Why you are petty enough to carry on a conversation with the need to insult people is beyond me. I know very few people who possess that trait.


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
just because you seem to think you are attractive is not enough reason to smile and nod along


That one I had to laugh at. Could you please point out to me even ONE place where I stated anything about thinking I am attractive, and therefore people should ďsmile and nodĒ when I say something? I have never made such a statement, again something you made up that will not be found anywhere in this thread.


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
no amount of reasonable discourse will break my faith


I had previously stated very clearly that this is simply my opinion based on experience and that I would be more than willing to change my mind and conclusions should experience point me in another direction. Iíve also stated that Iím interested in hearing other peopleís opinions and perspectives, commented on the fact that SOME people here have given me something to think about, and never stated anything about faith. Again, youíve contradicted what has previously been stated. You conclusions are in error as youíve not actually read what it is youíre commenting on.

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#17077 - 12/28/08 02:47 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Yawn.

I'm not getting into a pissing match with you. I have already said what needed to be said.

Continue with your faith based drivel, by all means.
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#17113 - 12/29/08 02:25 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
One of the things Iíve always found interesting is the studies on hypnosis and hypnotherapy in the treatment and prevention of pain, especially as an alternative to chemical anesthesia during surgery. People have different levels of activity in different parts of the brain, thus making some more susceptible than others to external suggestion. The fact that such a thing can be achieved at all is amazing, and it really goes to demonstrate that we are only beginning to scratch the surface of what the human mind is capable of. We can no longer define the reality of pain as something that can definitively be experienced, and vice versa, just as experiments wherein a person has been touched with an ordinary object is told itís a burning hot poker and develops a third degree burn. The science behind it has gained enough credibility that in certain hospitals hypnosis is being used as a successful alternative to anesthesia. Just one example of the complexities of consciousness, one more question to ponder in terms of how connected to the physical it really is, if one should choose to ponder such questions.

I theorize that there is more than one dimension and what makes up the essence of ďusĒ can exist in more than just the one our senses are geared toward perceiving right now. This explains ghosts as well as psychic phenomena, being that in some manners this essence is obviously compatible with this dimension. I think that a shift occurs when the physical body is no longer viable - a quantum phase transition stemming from quantum entanglement.

There are numerous examples regarding the limitations of human perception. Some species are able to see more colors than others, for pigeons the world appears to move in slow motion because of the way their brains work, cats can hear higher vibration sounds that we wouldnít even know exist without technology, even dogs canĎt see the television the same way we can as the signal appears distorted. Everything anything or anyone perceives is a product of how their brains have adjusted through evolution. It does not mean there is not more out there - in fact, in all probability there is more out there that we cannot perceive compared to what we can. According to quantum physics, everything in our environment is vibrating at a certain frequency. The low vibrations and high vibrations are just what we happen to be able to perceive. Just imagine would you would find in the higher and lower vibratory realms beyond what we are currently able to measure. That is where I would propose non-physical sentience becomes possible. Again, just my thoughts on the matter.

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#17117 - 12/29/08 03:02 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
So, you talk about "experiences" - please, at least give someone who's endured this whole thing a bone...

What - experiences? I don't want to know, I gotta know...

So give it up, and others, please by all means, no one's going to think you're crazier than you already are.

So... let's go... here it is.... on with the show.... give it to me.... c'mon.... now's the time..... any moment now....... 1,2,3, go.............
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#17127 - 12/29/08 04:47 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
The science behind it has gained enough credibility that in certain hospitals hypnosis is being used as a successful alternative to anesthesia. Just one example of the complexities of consciousness, one more question to ponder in terms of how connected to the physical it really is, if one should choose to ponder such questions.
I have doubts about that part.. maybe you should provide some links with information about it from a recommended official site? Not from spiritual pseudoscientifique assholes who THINK they can explain everything..

 Quote:
I theorize that there is more than one dimension and what makes up the essence of ďusĒ can exist in more than just the one our senses are geared toward perceiving right now. This explains ghosts as well as psychic phenomena, being that in some manners this essence is obviously compatible with this dimension. I think that a shift occurs when the physical body is no longer viable - a quantum phase transition stemming from quantum entanglement.

To break your bubble: you can't theorize. You only have the IDEA there is more than 1 dimension and you have the IDEA ghosts exist. You can only theorize if you have proven it can indeed exist or if there is trustable evidence.

 Quote:
The low vibrations and high vibrations are just what we happen to be able to perceive. Just imagine would you would find in the higher and lower vibratory realms beyond what we are currently able to measure. That is where I would propose non-physical sentience becomes possible.

Being quite scientifique I must say your conclusion is quite stupid. This for the mere fact vibrations have a frequency. Frequencies have certain limits. The pain in the ass for most of the spiritual thinking persons is the plain fact we already know the limits of all frequencies within this universe. Or to be more correct on the system "earth". I'm not going to talk about the universe cause more than 90% of it is still unknown.. But I highly doubt I can be transported somewhere in the universe to have a tea with "god" or other deceased persons.

 Quote:
So... let's go... here it is.... on with the show.... give it to me.... c'mon.... now's the time..... any moment now....... 1,2,3, go.............

Welcome back to the show called "How high is your bullshit factor?" with our host "...."
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#17155 - 12/29/08 05:35 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I know of monks that can endure extreme conditions and decrease their pain levels enormously and although it is great, I do not see any disconnection between the physical and the consciousness in it. Of course the consciousness can be affected and we can warp natural reactions or even alter personalities through hypnosis and such but it all stays within the brain = consciousness niche. It's not because someone can suppress pain that the actual cause-physical reaction isn't there. Feeling pain serves to make you know there is something wrong. Suppressing it doesn't change the fact that the whole wound-signaling mechanism still works. But I don't disagree it is fascinating what some can do and to what extremes.

The experiments where people are touched with a normal object while their mind is confused and show wounds accordingly is unknown to me. To a degree it sounds illogical, following that I could stab a hypnotized person to death with a banana which seems rather absurd but I'll look into it, if I find it somewhere.

About ghosts things get complicated. Even if we assume there is another dimension and let's also assume ghosts are some sort of transition, isn't it weird that all those conflicting things happens? We need mediums to talk with our departed loved ones but at the same times ghosts are perfectly capable of showing themselves, even talk in an understandable or recordable manner. Some are ghostly but at the same time they make noise when walking around, affect temperature, are able to throw around stuff. How can some transition suddenly be physical enough to have weight, or put marks or writing on stuff? How come they all talk cryptic when using mediums but are at times perfectly understandable when writing stuff down or talking in haunted houses. How come some can play instruments and produce sounds from those instruments that can hardly be expected to also end up in a transitional stage? Why are some visible and some not. How come we never see ghostly great apes when great apes unmistakably have some sort of crude consciousness and self?
Ghosts and all the appearances and things they can do or apparently do are so contradictory or plain absurd, I have a pretty hard time taking the subject seriously.

I agree our perception is limited and that some animals see more, less or different things than us but there is one thing that sees it all: science. Science sees what animals see, as they see what humans see. They see everything at every explorable frequency. If they don't see it, we will never see it and in that case, whatever is there or not will be forever unknown to us. Hypothesizing what could be there and what not, is a waste of time. It only serves the function of letting the option open for what one wishes to be there. It's where some stick god, others the fairies and some other ghosts or metaphysical sentience. It's an argument that can't be countered because it isn't an argument to start with I fear. It's like saying I'm 150 years old but in Hjougo-years. If none knows what Hjougo-years are, you hardly can call me wrong.

D.

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#17173 - 12/29/08 11:49 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
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I have a ghost cat in my house.
I think its the ghost of my dead cat Fred
or it might be a little deamon.
I dont really know.
On occassion, when you are lying in bed under the covers, it jumps up on the bed walks around, then lays down.
When you look, there is no cat there.
Yeah well, it sounds weird, but it happens.
I think my ex-boyfriend felt it on the bed once too.

Morgan

Ps.
I am not inviting ghost hunters to camp at my house and sleep in my bed.
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#17176 - 12/30/08 12:13 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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As I have mentioned, I have had 'experiences' as well, that I can not seem to explain. I pretty much just ignore it and chalk it up to 'future science'. Just a reminder that we have a ways to go still.
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#17183 - 12/30/08 03:48 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
I am not inviting ghost hunters to camp at my house and sleep in my bed.


Well, with that, I think you just fucked up my next great idea!

But, you did answer truly the thing I was asking, however, putting "labels" (ah fuck, who cares)... it is what it is.

Truly, I'd love to believe in this thing, and I'd like to find a way to "find out". The methods for doing such a thing, and there are "methods", however, the resulting "knowledge" would be considered "subjective" by modern science, and therefore of no "scientific" use.

But, let's consider this, perhaps what Tala de Sade is proposing, I'd like to imagine.

Since, as has been stated, over and over again, ad nauseum... on both sides (mine included)... that this is either complete bullshit (possibly, likely), or there is something to this (like there could be a yellow dog with purple spots floating out there somewhere around Neptune... you don't know, assholes).

Let us, with our skeptical, ultra-scientific, evil minds, accept the "possibility" for a brief second of time...

And, let us use the "Scientific Method" to figure this thing out. So everyone's content.

How about it? Now, where do we start? Or are we going to make this thread last as long as fucking possible, refutations upon refutaions, with no other end in site?

Anyone game?



Edited by daevid777 (12/30/08 03:49 AM)
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