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#17196 - 12/30/08 11:54 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Offline
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That's pretty hard because first you need to create some theory of the "unprovable" happening and then you need to provide proof or evidence or circumstances in which it might happen.

Even when turning my skeptical mind in guess or hope modus, how can I ever do something with a hypothesis like; another dimension or a transcending state. I can give a multitude of assumptions about that dimension and that state, make some eloquently scientific but what I can't avoid is that all answers will be equally valid. So even if I'd say that the other dimension is hidden in my coffee cup and I can access it by farting and burping at the same time, I do make an as valid statement as any other.

The main problem in this is that any theory not backed up by evidence or proof can only be agreed or disagreed with. You can say I believe this, and frankly, when not providing evidence, it is nothing but belief, and all I or anyone else can do is claim it is probably right or wrong according arguments pro of contra. The fact that there is argument is because people accept the possibility for a second and then tell why they agree or why not. So essentially, we are already doing this the whole time.

D.

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#17208 - 12/30/08 05:00 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

How about it? Now, where do we start? Or are we going to make this thread last as long as fucking possible, refutations upon refutaions, with no other end in site?


Of course. I'm always game to learn something new. Unfortunately, there is nothing but hot air here. The extremely infrequent things presented as 'evidence' in this thread have without exception been the easily debunked words of known con artists. Apparently some around here have EXTREMELY LOW standards for what constitutes 'evidence'.

We can't approach this scientifically without any real data to go by. There is none. All we have is one girl with unshakable faith, and nothing to back it up aside from 'experiences' she refuses to cite.

Nothing from nothing is nothing.
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#17231 - 12/30/08 08:12 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
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As the boys said, proof, undenyable proof isn't possible.
Too many variables, theories, ideas, and subjective personal perspectives.

Just cause a "thing" appears once doesn't mean it will happen again, or that standing on your head will make it happen twice.

I really don't know what it is sometimes on my bed, and a big part of me doesn't care as long as its not breathing and I don't have to kill it.

What that means in the big picture of this thread is that nobody really knows, and all it comes down to is belief in a personal perspective of what it is or may be.

I would be more happy to know my cat is dead and at rest than wandering as a ghost part time.

Morgan
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#17235 - 12/30/08 09:50 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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No. It is not a matter of 'nobody knows' therefore all views are equal. That is silly.

Nobody knows for sure if there is a teacup orbiting alpha centauri. That does not mean there is a 50/50 chance either way, or even that there is a one in eight gazillion chance that its true. Believing that would be downright ridiculous.

Proof and evidence are separate and distinct concepts. Believing anything is true without evidence is downright STUPID.
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#17237 - 12/30/08 10:07 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:
I have doubts about that part.. maybe you should provide some links with information about it from a recommended official site?


Hypnosis was first officially recognized as a viable therapeutic tool by the British Government through the Hypnotism Act in 1952. Then, in 1958 both the British and the American Medical Associations (AMA) sanctioned the official use of hypnosis by physicians. In 1958, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) also approved hypnotherapy for use by professionally responsible individuals. Here are a few links regarding the current use of hypnosis in hospitals as an alternative to painkillers and anesthesia (called hypnoanesthesia):

“Most recognized here in the West for his use of hypnosis in surgery is James Esdaile, though his method found much better reception in India. Modern day hypnotists have modified the techniques developed by Esdaile, Elliotson, Parker, Cloquet and other hardy pioneers of the past century. The most significant developments in this area include the use of autohypnosis, hypnotic suggestions to improve the postoperative period, glove anesthesia and autogenic training (which employs a day run of the intended surgery). This type of conditioning protects the patient against surprise, fear, and apprehension: the pain threshold is automatically raised by “blocking” the neurophysiologic paths that transmit the painful afferent impulses. Hypnoanesthesia has been used successfully for many major and minor surgical procedures. Since the use of hypnosis allays fear and tension, hypnotic anesthesia is easily facilitated, anoxemia is reduced and, because of the profound relaxation, less analgesia and chemical anesthesia are required. In some patients the traditional preoperative administration of narcotics can be eliminated even in those who are presently able to enter the light stages of hypnosis.”
http://www.hypnoticadvancements.com/applications-surgery.htm

“Hypnosis has been used as the sole anesthetic in major surgical procedures from the 1800’s to the present. The incision and physical effects are obviously quite real; therefore, the pain is not just in the head, but at the surgical site also. However, there is not pain until it gets to the brain. That is why surgery with hypnosis is a very powerful and dramatic application of the same principles and skills that one can experience through hetero-hypnosis (hypnosis directed by some one else) or self-hypnosis (self directed hypnosis). Hypnosis actually takes the hurt out of pain.”
http://www.hypnosis.org/catalog/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&products_id=102

“From this study, we conclude that hypnoanesthesia is an effective technique for providing relief of intraoperative and postoperative pain in endocrine cervical surgery. The technique results in high patient satisfaction and better surgical convalescence. This technique can therefore be used in most well-chosen patients and reduces the socioeconomic impact of hospitalization.”
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/10630345?src=emed_ckb_ref_0

“The first notable advantage to using hypnosis as an adjunct to chemical anesthesia is that of requiring far less amounts of any chemical anesthesia than normally required. This in turn has the effect of reducing deaths in surgery due to chemical incompatibilities with patients. The Mayos have had an unbroken record of about seventeen thousand cases without any fatalities due to the anesthetic ever since employing the use of hypnosis.
Additionally, patients have far more energy and vitality left after surgery for recuperation, and hypnotic suggestions for quick recovery and rehabilitation have also been used to help with great success.”
http://www.hypnoticadvancements.com/applications-anesthesia.htm

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#17238 - 12/30/08 10:20 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To break your bubble: you can't theorize. You only have the IDEA there is more than 1 dimension and you have the IDEA ghosts exist. You can only theorize if you have proven it can indeed exist or if there is trustable evidence.


THEORY: A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact; An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

You’re absolutely incorrect in asserting that I cannot “theorize” about something. By the very definition of the word, that is exactly what I’m doing. I was talking about quantum phases and transition, which has something science has already begun to define. Theories, by the very nature of the word, stem from “ideas” as do all great discoveries. It is your logic that is incorrect on this matter. Or, as you would say, “your conclusion is quite stupid.”

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#17239 - 12/30/08 10:34 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The pain in the ass for most of the spiritual thinking persons is the plain fact we already know the limits of all frequencies within this universe. Or to be more correct on the system "earth". I'm not going to talk about the universe cause more than 90% of it is still unknown..


What an absolute contradiction. On one hand you claim that we know the limits of all frequencies in the universe, and then you say we just know the limit of all the frequencies within the earth, and then you claim that you believe 90% of all the universe is still unknown. Well over 90% of the universe remains unknown, and given the infinitesimal portion of it that we occupy, how could you logically conclude that we are aware of even 1%? So being that you’re the one who claims to have all the logic here, please humor us all and explain how you arrived at the conclusion that the inhabitants of this planet possess the knowledge of 10% of the universe?

Furthermore, we do NOT know the limits within every frequency within the earth or within the universe. How did you come up with that idea? Where is your proof? How can you possibly claim awareness of all frequencies if there are things out there we cannot even begin to perceive without technology, and technology has only reached a limited level of advancement?

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#17242 - 12/30/08 10:55 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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"What that means in the big picture of this thread is that nobody really knows, and all it comes down to is belief in a personal perspective of what it is or may be."

That means no matter what we say, no one will agree. That doesn't mean everything is equal, it just means no one will ever agree.


"Proof and evidence are separate and distinct concepts"
HUH?
Evidence is the basis of proof.
Without them nothing can be proved to be true.

"Believing anything is true without evidence is downright STUPID."
No shit, that was my point.

M
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#17243 - 12/30/08 11:08 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I do believe there is a logical explanation for everything, even if in some cases we have yet to find it. Something as simple as the changing of the weather once seemed completely random, people thought that perhaps it would never be explained, but now it’s very commonplace knowledge and people don’t give much thought to it. Perhaps the fact that there is so much out there that is not able to be explained that garners so many questions and theories as to what the nature of it really is why looking into these things is something gradually becoming more commonplace (at least where not still in the era of being deemed witches for having an open mind, most of the time at least). I don’t think I’m anything other than someone willing to participate in that theoretical debate and chose side A over side B. There may be at least one moron out there who thinks I have some sort of “unshakable faith” despite my stating numerous times that my opinions are open to change with the evidence as it finds me, as you have sighted the same thing about your opinions.

Regarding the questions you have about ghosts and mediums, I could give you my opinions as to why things happen the way they do based on some of the things I’ve read, but you would do just as well to find a book you’d think you’d enjoy on the subject and read it from someone who has dedicated more time to this study. At least the reasons when and why ghosts appear are based in the physical realm and thus easier to explain. Even psychic phenomena has been linked to specific parts of the brain being more active and alert than others, but I’m not sure precisely how many studies have been done on it.

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#17246 - 12/30/08 11:29 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Fair. I realize people come to their own conclusions on stuff. But in my opinion it is far less important what you conclude than the method used to arrive at that conclusion. Some conclusions are reached through scientific (read- real) methods, others, through wild speculation, psychosis, raw guesswork, or blind faith.

I guess the reason this bothers me a little is probably similar to why normal every day working people that happen to be muslim are bothered by suicide bombings in the name of allah. In a sense.

As I have stated I KNOW there is something to all of this based on MY personal experience. I will not take that experience and manufacture a bunch of bullshit to support a certain conclusion I want to be true, however. I think the why not should be obvious right? When I see people pushing their new-age quasi-mysticism in droves, it makes the entire mess seem like utter bullshit. When people come at it from a magical minded standpoint the rational just laugh, and the entire subject gets dismissed out of hand. This is a tragedy.

 Quote:

"Proof and evidence are separate and distinct concepts"
HUH?
Evidence is the basis of proof.
Without them nothing can be proved to be true.

Seldom will you hear the words 'scientific proof' thrown around, and if you do you should be very skeptical. The reason? Nothing is every really 'proven' scientifically. The second something is not falsifiable it leaves the realm of science and enters the realm of mysticism.

'Proof' is hardline, dogmatic, and rarely what it purports to be. Evidence is factual information that supports a certain claim of proposition.

What we do have that we think of as proven are just theories in which the evidence has stacked up in favor of a certain theory or proposition without enough counter evidence to unseat it from favor.

So yes, 'proof', and 'evidence' are vastly different concepts, at least in this particular context.

 Quote:

No shit, that was my point.

Yep. I don't really think we disagree on anything important.
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#17299 - 12/31/08 06:36 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Fuck. This is why I never, ever, never, ever, never ever wanted to take a look at the philosophy thread... (sorry, Mequa).

Please, listen here folks, I'm a man of "action", not a great man of action, like Indiana Jones or the Incredible Hulk or anything, I am what I am. I'm more like a pathetic version of Robin Williams' "Popeye"...

What I'm asking, and nobody's telling... is... what do you DO?

Now, if your content with philosophizing the hell out of this thing, then by all means, knock yourselves out, and you could probably do that by reading the first page... if you ever need a sedative, try this thread... not drugs...

Kids.... don't do drugs, just read the philosophy forum's latest... public service, I do my best.

So, before Tala wakes up, what are the methods, what can be done?

Instance: I made a "magic mirror" a ways back... haven't tried it, and I'm honestly scared to do it now.

Any of you big, bad Satanists looked into the "magic mirror"? What's the harm in trying, anyway, it's all bullshit.

Too much information, perhaps.
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#17303 - 12/31/08 06:57 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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Daevid777: ever tried to look at philosophy as "white people's warfare"?
Black people fight with sticks, spears, knives and other weapons. We western people are more advanced and fight with words.
Which actually leads to the same damn thing...



Edited by Dimitri (12/31/08 07:16 AM)
Edit Reason: spell-check
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#17304 - 12/31/08 06:59 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I do also believe that there is a logical explanation for everything and that we just didn't discover some because of a lack of factors (evidence) to explain or construct that logical answer. I do however also believe that if it turns out we do not live in a 3-dimensional environment but a multi-dimensional, logic will at one point fail as a tool to explain certain things. Analogous, in a multidimensional environment 43 x 2 = 15.7 might only be true is A is lightly obese yellow.

We're both at opposing sides when it comes to phenomena like non-physical sentience and transcending consciousness and while I think my answers are more correct than yours and you'll probably think otherwise, -if not, we'd both wouldn't be embracing those answers- at some levels, truth isn't a factor in any of these answers because we both can't provide enough evidence for them. We can give evidence pro or contra for factors concerning the concept but ultimately, I nor you can at any point convince the other of their right. All we can do is give reasons why we think it is plausible or not and let the other do with it what they want. Still, I do think you are wrong in your assumption and that the logical explanation might be far simpler than you assume it to be but again, I can't provide evidence for that. I can only provide reasons why I think something is plausible or not.

I read a lot about ghosts in the past and although one can distill some overlapping essence out of it all, the bulk of all sightings does contradict any general theory created. Out of all sightings, there are so much features happening and absurdities that no matter what consensus one proposes, it will unavoidably be discredited by first, second or third hand information. Ultimately you'll end up in the same game rational Christians try to play, dissecting the bible and cutting out what doesn't fit to make their rational approach towards god work.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/31/08 07:02 AM)

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#17307 - 12/31/08 07:51 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, what have you done, what have you tried? That's all, why is that so hard a question? If you haven't done shit, then I guess, you can philosophize a bit more, I guess I can read a few thousand more paragraphs, if you have done something, then let it all out, and here's the big chance, here's the experience, you guy's aren't fucking listening at all are you?, here it is, the thing, life after death, now just tell me something new:
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#17312 - 12/31/08 08:41 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't think I get the question. What have you done? Like going to a graveyard and talk to the dead? Like sitting in the fields at night waiting on a UFO to pass and have a quick interview with the aliens? I'm not a primate. Do I really need to die before I can have an opinion about it?

If experience was in all ways a valid measurement for truth, we'd still be burning the witches.

D.

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