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#15114 - 11/29/08 04:08 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Morgan Offline
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"Chemical imbalances are just as made up as the idea of consciousness surviving death. Their is no way to prove any balance at all. Chemical imblance is merely a term made up by psychiatrists to sell their posion to people the world over."

That's what blood tests/levels are for...
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#15116 - 11/29/08 04:34 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Morgan]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
"That's what blood tests/levels are for..."

And what do blood tests have to do with proving a chemical imbalance in the brain?
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#15119 - 11/29/08 06:44 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
A good read is called The Physics of Immortality. To touch on it the author states that the universe is one big computer program and that when all mathmatical equasions have been exhausted it will reboot thus doing it all over again.

Men of old experimented with the theory of spontaneous generation in which it was believed that, as an example, when food is left out maggots and gnats appeared out of nowhere to consume it. Obviously, experiments proved this not to be true though it was previously believed to be. So yes it was "fact" in the sense that things like the earth being flat was widely accepted. There IS absolute truth whether it is "factual" to man or not.

Again, the mind is what the brain does. Just the same as any other organ, when it ceases to live it ceases to produce, the way the heart ceases to produce a pulse when it dies. The reason man can't accept the fact that concsiousness ends is because conscious thought is not capable to do so. That is why they come to the conclusion that surely it must go on. Its sole purpose it to produce conscious thought. To do ask it to do anything else goes against its NATURE. It cannot perform a task it is not assigned to do. That's like asking your eyes to hear or your ears to see. It's not what they do.




Just thought this was well said, thanks
(Our consciousness is embedded into physical form for as long as the physical body remains viable. We are experiencing life via the sensory perception of our body - touch, taste, smell, hearing, seeing. So how would you explain what colors are to a person that was born without eyesight? You cannot say that colors do not exist, but you can explain color with the simple understanding that it is something certain people do not have the capacity to perceive. At the same level, most people do not have the capacity to perceive the energies and vibrations outside of what their physical bodies allow them to. Clairvoyants, clairsentients, etc. are simply people who were born with or developed a higher level of awareness (perhaps they are even the next level of evolution in humanity) through the physical senses. Just because you or I may not have the senses they have, does that mean they are not real any more than it means color is not real? )


Edited by blsk (11/29/08 07:29 PM)
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#15123 - 11/29/08 07:40 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
"Before we understood the human reproductive system, it was thought by some people that a virgin could spontaneously become pregnant and then give birth."

People still believe that a virgin can spontaneously become pregnant. Immaculate conception is one of the corner stones of Christian mythology.


Probably Tala was thinking about parthenogenesis. However, it seems to be impossible for humans...

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#15124 - 11/29/08 09:15 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: blsk]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
What I would perceive as consciousness would better be technically defined as energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed - although it can be harnessed (the way electricity is used to power everyday appliances, for example, is one specific type of energy). So if energy can be used to power otherwise inanimate objects, why would it seem so far-fetched that energy/consciousness is being used to power our bodies? And if energy cannot be destroyed, why is it so far-fetched that our energy/consciousness simply detaches from the source (the physical body) and moves onto a non-physical environment that most human beings are not able to perceive?

I am aware that there are at least as many parlor acts out there - people that employ techniques such as cold reading for entertainment - as there are legitimate psychics, probably more. I would define a legitimate psychic as someone who is constantly able to reproduce higher than average results in conveying accurate information when asked to read for a complete stranger without being provided with any information about them beforehand. These are the people that are actually able to make a living at what they do, who can actually carry on a conversation with a person for an hour and prove that the information they can provide is extremely specific and not be reliant upon “a few lucky guesses.” Some people would refer to that ability as the sixth sense.

I would define the sixth sense as the ability to intuit things which exceed the realm of basic instinct, the reading of various forms of energy not perceivable by any of the other five senses. Some people call it intuition. Like any other sense it can be underdeveloped or overdeveloped depending on the individual. There are people out there who happen to fall into the realm of “overdeveloped.” Has anybody watched the television series Psychic Children? Yes, the media is available to fall under scrutiny when presenting any form of controversial subject matter (ironically this would also be why most people with said abilities keep it to themselves), but I think it would be an interesting show to watch as an introduction to this subject and how it exists in our world.

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#15125 - 11/29/08 09:23 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Okay, that makes more sense. Our enegy may remain behind after we are dead, but our consciousness will not. While this energy may continue to exist, I don't think any part of us will continue to exist with it.
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#15126 - 11/29/08 09:33 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Chemical imbalances are just as made up as the idea of consciousness surviving death. Their is no way to prove any balance at all. Chemical imblance is merely a term made up by psychiatrists to sell their posion to people the world over.


I suppose you’re going to suggest that Schizophrenia, Narcolepsy and Post-Partum Depression are made up as well? They are defined by specific chemical/hormonal imbalances in the brain. They are treated with medications known to specifically target those chemicals. Even the food we eat has been proven to alter the different chemicals flowing through our veins. These things are not imaginary. I think it this point I can reasonably say that these things have been proven to exist and that medications have been developed as proven treatments.

To say that “there is no way to prove any balance at all” is as logical as saying that every single human being has the same genetic predisposition to certain ailments, the same physical characteristics, and basically that we are all exactly alike. One only has to look at those whom they are surrounded by to prove that each person is unique, each person has a different biological “balance” and that different conditions are caused by different alterations in that balance.

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#15128 - 11/29/08 09:36 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3890
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
So if energy can be used to power otherwise inanimate objects, why would it seem so far-fetched that energy/consciousness is being used to power our bodies?


Do you honestly not see the flaws with this type of mystical minded thinking? What happens to the electricity that was used to power the lightbulb when you turn it off? Does it continue on, as some sort of spiritual light source in another dimension?

I am still waiting for any sort of credible scientific source for any of this. There is a reason why Schwartz has never been published in a credible peer reviewed scientific journal. Because he is a hack. Can you give me just one piece of evidence or one good reason to take ANY of this seriously?

If Schwartz's book is the sole source of all this,you have been conned.
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#15129 - 11/29/08 09:36 PM Higher awareness [Re: Succubus666]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Clairvoyants, clairsentients, etc. are simply people who were born with or developed a higher level of awareness (perhaps they are even the next level of evolution in humanity) through the physical senses. Just because you or I may not have the senses they have, does that mean they are not real any more


I do not deny that some have a higher level of awareness. For instance I reported I knew my sister was pregnant before she told me. I’m also able to find water with rods…

However these can/could be rationally explained.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Science experiments show that we’re still able to perceive this (experience about how people sit close or far from a pregnant woman in a waiting room) but this is not (generally) consciously known. However, the subconscious have this information. I rationally explain my experience as the fact that this information popped out from my subconscious to my conscious. It really a direct global perception of the reality.


Finding water is not yet explained but this is conceivable. The same for Tibetan physicians who’re able to make a diagnostic only by touching/sensing their patients.

However there are thing that are hardly conceivable for a rational mind, like :
- consciousness after death (mainly for the reason given by Diavolo)
- knowing the future (needing access to some information repository alike akashic records and raising questions on fate, destiny & free will )
- some of the magic mentioned in TSB
 Quote:
The amount of energy needed to levitate a teacup (genuinely) would be of sufficient force to place an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth, in turn, motivating them in accordance with your will.


However, as a true truth seeker, I can’t just close my mind to some of my own experiences. One of these experiences is meeting you (all) here and seeing rational people playing with the occult.

I also “played” with Tarots and went to “Tarots readers”. There are lots of predictions who never happened (yet?) or are too vague and subject to interpretation to be confirmed or infirmed.

However, there was a period during which I had the Pope appearing often in my cards on question related to work. I went to a “Tarot reader” and she predicted me protection from a powerful man (confirming my own conclusions). And on this I must admit it happened… And I swear that it’s really annoying my rational side!


Edited by Fabiano (11/29/08 09:42 PM)

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#15130 - 11/29/08 09:41 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
" suppose you’re going to suggest that Schizophrenia, Narcolepsy and Post-Partum Depression are made up as well? They are defined by specific chemical/hormonal imbalances in the brain"

And now I will ask for some proof of this. What tests can be done to prove these chemical imbalances and what chemicals are out of balance?
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#15131 - 11/29/08 10:01 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
On that note. The energy we are using is burned off in what we call body heat. This energy doesn't come from some unseen universe. It is created in the body from the fuel we consume called food. When we die, we stop eating, digesting and in turn producing energy. So there is nothing from us to go on to another form.

Edited by blsk (11/29/08 10:02 PM)
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#15132 - 11/29/08 10:03 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Quote:
What happens to the electricity that was used to power the lightbulb when you turn it off? Does it continue on, as some sort of spiritual light source in another dimension?


I don’t think you understood the point I was illustrating. There are various types of energy out there and electricity is only one of them. The type of energy I am referring to powering the human body would be one that has evolved to the point of being able to carry sentience.


 Quote:
I am still waiting for any sort of credible scientific source for any of this.


It’s not the only book I’ve read on the matter, I just thought it was a good basic illustration. I was not aware of the controversy that surrounded Schwartz or the accusations that had been made against him. I did watch the video link that you posted, but cannot be sure of its authenticity anymore than one could be assured of the absolute authenticity of his book. I’ve never heard him make claims that he himself was psychic, in fact I’m aware that he’s stated numerous times that he was not. So the idea that HE would go into some guy’s house and make statements about a dead son seems like nonsense. To me it sounded like a stage show set up to make him look bad. I guess he pissed off the wrong person.

I could sit here and list dozens off books, but I think that Edgar Cayce’s work would be the best place to look. It’s been studied for years and every reading he ever gave is on permanent record. He was able to access information (cures for diseases, future information on the stock market, etc.) that no reasonable person could have blindly been able to answer on the spot and answer so accurately.

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#15133 - 11/29/08 10:13 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3890
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
The type of energy I am referring to powering the human body would be one that has evolved to the point of being able to carry sentience.

Do you not realize how huge of a claim that is?

Cayce has been debunked as a fraud for a really long time.
http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Cayce,%20Edgar.html

If there was really science behind all this life after death stuff, don't you think there would be ongoing research? Demonstrable, repeatable results? Write-ups in prominent scientific journals? Doesn't the absence of these factors strike you as a little bit strange?

Look I'm willing to drop this if you are willing to admit that these beliefs of yours are faith based. Otherwise bald assertions just aren't going to cut it. I want real, credible, hard evidence. So should you.
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#15134 - 11/29/08 10:14 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Dan,

I think Jack already highlighted the difference between not real and unproven. I doubt on the "evidences" brought by Tala, mainly thanks to you.

But it remains that unproven does not implies not real.

How do you explain the extract of TSB I quoted in my previous post? As a Satanist, do you beleive it's possible to levitate a teacup or putting idea in other distant poeple mind? And if your answer is yes, do you have a rational explanation?

I'm not fighting against you, just realy curious about your view...

And on the mysticism, I would also be pleased to have your comment on Mequa's post.


Edited by Fabiano (11/29/08 10:19 PM)

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#15143 - 11/29/08 11:16 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
On energy powering the body, I think electricity is not the best illustration. I see it more like the energy you lack when you're depressed. Everybody I guess already experienced that all is hard when we're depressed.

Other point: there is a strong relationship between mind and body. I see on this forum a tendency to see it in one direction only : the mind is an effect of the body, the brain is the cause of the mind. However, the mind in turn can have effects on the body. Simply and obviously when you decide to move you hand but also in Toumo meditation where some particular visualisation of ida and pinga causes an unusual production of heat.

Finally, as I'm an IT guy, I can't resist making a comparison between mind/body and software/hardware. Suppose you never seen a computer and you are given a running one to observe. If you have strong notions of physic you’ll attack the problem by the hardware side, looking at the electrons inside the transistors for explaining the behaviour of the software (alike looking at neurotransmitters in the brain). You’ll argue that without hardware no software. But without software you just have a heap of hardware components.

But the software come from outside, it is not generated by the hardware. I know comparisons has limits, but where our consciousness comes from if not generated by the body? To me there is mystery about consciousness…

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