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#15144 - 11/29/08 11:57 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:
How do you explain the extract of TSB I quoted in my previous post? As a Satanist, do you beleive it's possible to levitate a teacup or putting idea in other distant poeple mind? And if your answer is yes, do you have a rational explanation?

Well I'm not a TSB literalist, I don't agree with every single word but it could be argued that he was talking about 'the energy required' to lift a tea cup, rather than actually doing it.

I think the human mind is capable of great and as of yet unexplained things, but keeping an open mind and developing faith based beliefs are two different things.
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#15146 - 11/30/08 05:06 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Sorry for the double post, but it seems it is too late to edit and I wanted to address this point I overlooked earlier.
 Quote:


Finally, as I'm an IT guy, I can't resist making a comparison between mind/body and software/hardware. Suppose you never seen a computer and you are given a running one to observe. If you have strong notions of physic you’ll attack the problem by the hardware side, looking at the electrons inside the transistors for explaining the behaviour of the software (alike looking at neurotransmitters in the brain). You’ll argue that without hardware no software. But without software you just have a heap of hardware components.

But the software come from outside

Software is just a pattern of 1s and 0s executed by the hardware. It only 'comes from outside' in that it is placed into storage from an external source. But so is everything we know/observe/learn that is the essence of the nurtured side of who we are. The rest is innate, ie the nature side. Firmware if you will.

The way a computer acquires and stores data is really quite analogous to how the brain does it. The computer maps data to storage that has been presented via an external download source.(a cd/the internet) The Brain maps data to storage that has been presented by external download source. (our senses/our thoughts) The data we acquire from our senses is not meaningful in any coherent way until our brain gets ahold of it and makes it so. The same is true of computer instructions (software).

It would be difficult for you to argue that the compressed data on a cd, which is essentially instructions for the machine, is meaningful independent of the machine. Software doesn't do anything by itself.

And how do you think this human 'software' would carry on once the hardware had expired? What medium would transmit it, and to where? What evidence or experience or logic has lead you to the conclusions you have reached?

This all seems like a bunch of mystical minded spiritual pipedreams from where I'm sitting.
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#15147 - 11/30/08 05:28 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I think a lot of confusion here comes from the fact that people have a wrong idea about consciousness. Many think there is some sort of Carthesian theatre in our mind, a central director. That idea is the old medieval idea of a soul possessing the body, old dual thinking.

In reality consciousness isn't stable and there isn't a central director in your mind. What you are or better what your "I" is depends on certain coalitions in your brain. Your I isn't identical all the time and highly dependant. Brain damage might completely shift your I and you'll be a totally different person. The same for diseases or drugs or emotional states. You don't lack energy when you are depressed, you are subject to different coalitions in your brain, affecting your consciousness and thus affecting your experiences of the outer realm. Being in love or hating is another nice example. The loving you is a different person than the hating you even when outside not much difference is seen.

To learn more about this, check out Dennett, consciousness explained being a good starter. It might get rid of the old dual thinking.

If you realize that consciousness is highly dependant on the brain, it becomes much more obvious that they can't be seperated.
Consciousness depends not on energy as much as on neural pathways in your brain. Of course, like a computer your brain calculates and makes decisions based upon calculations -although a bit different- but the moment these calculations stop -death or brain death- your consciousness is gone.
It's a bit similar to a computer, when you switch the power off, it's only hardware and none wonders if its OS is still hanging around somewhere.

Consciousness might be linked to language and there is a theory that states that it was a requirement for consciousness to develop in evolution. I'm not sure how far that theory is developed nowadays, it's been some years since I read about it.
If there is no (internal) debate, there is no consciousness. It might explain why animals and humans differ that greatly at the level of consciousness.

Again, consciousness surviving death is at best highly unlikely.

Energy surviving, maybe but what's the point of bothering about it. If I take a crap, I seperate energy from my body too but I won't wonder if the energy of my pile of shit isn't going to some dimension being spiritual crap.

Medium: Hmm I sense something out there, it's brown and warm... might it be related to you?

D.

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#15148 - 11/30/08 05:39 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
And how do you think this human 'software' would carry on once the hardware had expired? What medium would transmit it, and to where? What evidence or experience or logic has lead you to the conclusions you have reached?


Although I don't think consciousness surviving death is possible, there is some option to carry on, although not in the manner most see it. Memetics is the answer.
You can carry on in the brains of others or in sources that affect brains. Of course, you won't be real, you won't be a conscious entity but there is a possibility to carry on, rather limited however.

D.

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#15149 - 11/30/08 08:18 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom—with compound interest liberally added thereunto! 
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye fourfold, a hundred‐fold! Make yourself a Terror to your adversary, 
and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over. Thus shall you make yourself 
respected in all the walks of life, and your spirit—your immortal spirit—shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained.


Sounds familiar. \:\)

True immortality.
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#15152 - 11/30/08 09:43 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Yeah and the concept isn't new at all. The more you explore the past, the more often you'll find ideas touching the same; immortality through remembering or replicating your story. Even the old Greeks knew that specific acts guaranteed them immortality as a memetic replicator. A good example is Leonidas and the battle at Thermopylae. The story has been told since then and he continues to live on, propagating his ideas or ideals. At times it is dormant until phenomena like 300 suddenly make it active and highly reproductive again. It's not static of course and subject to mutation and selection.

Memetics is a nowadays scientific approach to things but in the old days, they knew the same principle to gain immortality.

D.

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#15153 - 11/30/08 10:37 AM Re: Higher awareness [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
However, there was a period during which I had the Pope appearing often in my cards on question related to work. I went to a “Tarot reader” and she predicted me protection from a powerful man (confirming my own conclusions). And on this I must admit it happened… And I swear that it’s really annoying my rational side!


Perception is everything but perception does not always equal reality.

It is weird how things happen that confuse our rational mind and leave us with questions and maybe even doubts. What we often forget is that 99% of the time, things go as expected and that those anomalies are small % exceptions. We just tend to give them more credit or more importance than the bulk of normal behavior.

Just a couple of hours before I experienced one of those anomalies. I was at my partners and there was a badge of one of the kids displaying: "I like live". It confused me because I found the sentence rather dumb. I pondered a bit about it but did not see any connection with it and live music and such. Then I looked at the badge again and it actually read "I like life". Not something I would like to be seen with but what happened there was that while I was briefly reading the sentence and not paying too much attention, my brain filled in the gaps and changed the reality of the message. It's a minor incident but I do think the same principles apply in other situations too.

I think most of us experienced the famous déjà-vu. At some point you realize that this seems to have happened before or you have been here already. There are a lot of theories that lead to all kinds of higher explanations but it is nothing but your brain tricking you. There are a couple of similarities with already stored memories and your brain fills in the gaps with already known information, giving you the shock-experience.
We all experienced the awkward feeling when we see someone we know on the street, start shouting and waving at him until we suddenly realize that it isn't him at all and feel rather silly for waving at a stranger. The moment you see that person, your brain will fuck things up and tell you; that's yer buddy but once you are processing new information and the brain overwrites the previously filled in information, you will notice the mistakes it made.
We don't pay too much attention to that because we were mistaking, even when it is the same principle as the déjà-vu. Still, when other mistakes happen we tend to put them on a pedestal.

It's the same with predicting stuff. We can be a 100 times wrong and easily forget that but if we're on spot once or twice, we find it remarkable.

I do think some people are able to guess things more right than others but it is contextual and not subject to higher awareness in a mystical or whatever sense.

I've been a gambler in the past, playing some blackjack version. I was quite good at it and some people were amazed about my luck being out of proportion. It didn't have anything to do with higher awareness as much as just being aware. While others traditionally started to drink alcoholics when playing, I switched to coffee. I also read them more than their cards and a lot of people are fairly predictable when it comes to betting. And, because we only half-ass shuffled between games, certain packs of cards tend to stick together, making the probabilities of predicting a high or low card way easier than expected. Of course I didn't explain it to them and prefered them believing I was exceptionally lucky.
When I play poker online, I sure can't reproduce the effects, cards don't cluster, people seldom drink and when I'm lucky and long enough at the same table with the same guys, I can maybe find out who's a safe player and who gambles like an idiot but I don't suffer exceptional luck there.

The same goes for all kinds of predictions, it's a matter of being aware, reading people and gambling on high probabilities, even when the mediums don't always consciously realize it. And last but not least, most bet on the help of the victim. If you're right with one of two predictions people tend to give more and more credit to what you say, even when a lot of it is bullshit. They focus on what is right.

If I'd say you are about 1.75m, have brown-probably a bit to the light side- hair, have a bit of confidence problems and struggle somewhat with your sexuality or at least masculinity, I can be 100% wrong in this but odds are I am going to be close on at least one, and if a second hits the bullseye, you're going to start ignoring the others. If a third is right, you'll start doubting how it is rationally possible. Of course, if you'd believe in mediums and predictions, you'd be even more susceptible. The more I guess, the more I am going to be right and if I hit the critical number required for a certain person, he'll grant me special powers.

Like I said; perception is everything but not always reality.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (11/30/08 10:42 AM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#15154 - 11/30/08 10:41 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
It would be difficult for you to argue that the compressed data on a cd, which is essentially instructions for the machine, is meaningful independent of the machine. Software doesn't do anything by itself.


Difficult to argue without giving a little IT lesson indeed. I might be view as off topic but I can’t argue without it. The point is to define data and to make some disambiguation about it.

So, never mind, I go…

First data can be defined by opposition to program. The program being the instructions, the code. The data being what the program is manipulates. In 1+2=3, 1 & 2 are input data, 3 output data and + is the code, the program.

2nd data can be defined by opposition to information. An information is a fact, an event, an object… of the real word relevant in the frame of an IT project. Data is encoded information. For instance, my size is an information which can be encoded as “Fabiano is 5.5 ft” or “Fabiano mesure un mètre septante”. Same info, different data.

3rd Software can be defined by opposition to hardware. It’s composed of program and (optional) data (reference data). The firmware is a software embeeded in the Hardware but not generated by it.

4th an algorithm is the information underlying a program. The program being a particular implementation of the algorithm it’s indeed not meaningfull independent of the machine, but not the algorithm. Fort instance quick sort and bubble sort are two sorting algorithms and they’re meaningful independent of the machine Q.E.D.


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And how do you think this human 'software' would carry on once the hardware had expired? What medium would transmit it, and to where? What evidence or experience or logic has lead you to the conclusions you have reached?


 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
I know comparisons has limits, but where our consciousness comes from if not generated by the body? To me there is mystery about consciousness…


Where did you see I made any conclusion? I just asked questions and by saying there is a mystery, I express that I have no conclusion...

About "the medium used to transit it" couldn't it be the same used for placing an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth (TSB) ?


Edited by Fabiano (11/30/08 10:47 AM)

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#15156 - 11/30/08 11:25 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
[quote=Fabiano]
 Quote:
About "the medium used to transit it" couldn't it be the same used for placing an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth (TSB) ?


Let's not get too hung up on this small part of The Satanic Bible. LaVey was indulging in a bit of allegory. He wasn't saying it was possible... he was saying that it was a huge amount of energy. Basically, trying to will a teacup to levitate is a waste of time when it's much easier to reach out and pick the thing up.

He's simply using allegory to show that one needs to have desire... hence the topic of this passage; that the "magician" must firmly believe that what he is willing shall come to pass. He wasn't an advocate of levitations, mass mind control or the existence of anything "immortal" or "continuing" about humanity beyond the grave. He felt that when you died, you were gone, save in the memories of those closest to you or whose respect you had gained through your personal efforts.

"There is no Heaven of glory bright, or Hell where sinners roast." Life is life and death is the end of life and individual consciousness.
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#15157 - 11/30/08 11:26 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
Men of old experimented with the theory of spontaneous generation in which it was believed that, as an example, when food is left out maggots and gnats appeared out of nowhere to consume it. Obviously, experiments proved this not to be true though it was previously believed to be.

The theory wasn't wrong, it went into modification. The very first life forms (I'm talking about 3.5 billon years ago) were "spontaneous". They came to life under certain atmosferic conditions and chemical reactions. (Miller-Urey-experiment) You should look it up if you want to see the whole thing.

 Quote:
" suppose you’re going to suggest that Schizophrenia, Narcolepsy and Post-Partum Depression are made up as well? They are defined by specific chemical/hormonal imbalances in the brain"

And now I will ask for some proof of this. What tests can be done to prove these chemical imbalances and what chemicals are out of balance?

Easy, you take 2 persons, 1 with those psychological problems and one healthy normal person. From both persons you take some blood and run some test for hormone balances. Also; put them in a chair put some electrodes on their brain and start analysing brain patterns. You'll quite quickly see the chemical imbalances..

 Quote:
And how do you think this human 'software' would carry on once the hardware had expired? What medium would transmit it, and to where? What evidence or experience or logic has lead you to the conclusions you have reached?

Software expires, hardware gets modified but will still work with the original mechanical within. Same goes for humans, software will expire, but the original minds and working of the human mind will stay the same. Only the sofware will be gone.

 Quote:
About "the medium used to transit it" couldn't it be the same used for placing an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth (TSB) ?

Could be applied indeed, but do not forget; he wasn't mentioning the methods on how the transition worked to put an idea into one's mind on a distant.. Same goes for levitating the cup.. There is no mentioning about the method used. This makes a whole world of difference.


Edited by Dimitri (11/30/08 11:31 AM)
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#15158 - 11/30/08 11:34 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I'm not going to go in a detail point by point answer as I already gave some of these datails elsewhere (use the search engine). I'll just mainly put some of my quotes for enabling your search:

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
I always feel a malaise in splitting me in a body and a mind. I'm my mind AND my body


You seem to confuse mind and consciousness.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

Quote:
One realize thus, at first, during introspection that the phenomena contemplated are different from the mind which is contemplating : inside the mind, the faculty thanks to which it perceives its own mechanisms is different from the mechanisms which are observed. The meditator (the person who meditates) understands that his consciousness is different from the object it is contemplating, but it’s a knowledge which is not located at the verbal level as we’re expressing it here. The meditator comes on the contrary to this realisation and to all next realisations by a direct experience. He can very well not being able to express with words his own realisations; he understands but he not necessary able to explain what he understands.


So I define the consciousness as the faculty thanks to which it perceives its own mechanisms

 Quote:
Consciousness might be linked to language
Sit on zafu, do some introspection, and you'll see this assertion is false! There is a direct perception of the reality beyong langage.


 Quote:
Medium: Hmm I sense something out there, it's brown and warm... might it be related to you?


I used medium in
 Quote:
About "the medium used to transit it" couldn't it be the same used for placing an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth (TSB) ?
I was not talking about Mediums pretending to be in contact with the deads!

However, do you consider all the occult as bullshit? This site isn't about Satanism and the occult ?


Edited by Fabiano (11/30/08 12:12 PM)

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#15159 - 11/30/08 11:39 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
To me memes use language (oral, writen, body language...) for transmitting from brain to brain. It as nothing to do with what Tala suggests.
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#15161 - 11/30/08 12:05 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Jake999]
Fabiano Offline
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Jack, It's not the flying cup that worries me. I'm more curious about "placing an idea in a group of people's heads half-way across the earth"

Is it allegory? So why is it recomended to cast spell during nigth when the victim is more receptive?

Or putting ideas in other's distant mind when they sleep is possible or it isn't.
Could you clearly answer this? Is it possible?

If it's possible, then (again) what's the medium (i.e. Communication mean) used to transmit these ideas?

Finally, (for all of you) don't misunderstand me, I do not adhere to Swartz theories.

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#15163 - 11/30/08 12:23 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
In the case of the teacup, it's allegory.

The timing in the "casting of spells," refers to a specific action to influence the mind of those one would "enchant." When I wrote that he wasn't into mass mind control, it's a bit of a misnomer, because magically, in theory, anyway, one could pass a mass message in one's dreams. I dunno what the hell idea I would want to implant into the subconscious of millions... maybe to send me a dollar.
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#15164 - 11/30/08 12:37 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm not sure what you are responding here but I assume it is all upon some reply from me. You quoting yourself makes it a bit confusing, it would have been easier if you would have mentioned it.

First, I don't confuse mind and consciousness, mind = consciousness = brain. There is no duality even when we seem to speak about it seperately. There is no faculty in the sense of a director. What you describe as faculty or even the meditator seems to be in line with old dual thinking, or at least the idea that there is a fixed "I" in the brain.
Personally I do think meditation and all the mumbo-jumbo surrounding it is a bunch of bullshit but that's me. Every conclusion made can just as easy come through rational thinking. I don't believe in enlightenment or whatever it is called, to me it is identical to smoking some weed and suddenly seeing it. I've had a lot of gnosis using a lot of funky drugs but realistically it only showed me how easily my perception of reality, even the reality itself can be shifted by messing up my neurons.

The crap-medium comment was not directed at you but as an example on released energy and it's usefulness to contemplate upon. No matter how shitty it sounds, it is a perfect example to show that energy is irrelevant when not being in use.

And no I don't consider everthing occult as bullshit but honestly, most yes. And yes I know this is about Satanism & occult, thanks for reminding me, but as the oldtimers here know, I am not the type that is too bothered about things when it comes to stating his opinion. So in some occult there is some essence that is valid, at least if you elevate it above the form but most of it is of such a nature that I consider it crap. The second part of the SB is something I considered a waste of time, paper and money. Give me Crowley any day.
Not that I want to start a whole debate about that; been there, done that, said it all, no gain only pain.

Memes don't use anything, memes are. They go way beyond linguistic limitations and can be potent in visual versions, think symbolry, too. Indeed it has nothing to do with what Tala said but as I mentioned, of all belief in afterlife, this is THE only option.

D.

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