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#15167 - 11/30/08 02:07 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Picunnus Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 101
Loc: Ohio, USA
The whole software issue was explained to me long ago in a way that stuck in my mind - matter precedes mind. Without matter, there can be no mind.
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#15168 - 11/30/08 02:12 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Jake999]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well, so I understand that it is possible to put some idea in ONE distant mind (correct me if I misundertood you).

Then, logically, there must be a communication mean over which these ideas are transmitted...

The medium Dan was looking for is unproven but at least accepted by those believing in magic...

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#15170 - 11/30/08 02:19 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
"Easy, you take 2 persons, 1 with those psychological problems and one healthy normal person. From both persons you take some blood and run some test for hormone balances. Also; put them in a chair put some electrodes on their brain and start analysing brain patterns. You'll quite quickly see the chemical imbalances.."

Nope, im sorry but that would not work. My whole point was that any notions of a chemical imbalance is BS.
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#15172 - 11/30/08 02:47 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Ooh Diavolo you disappoint me here!

 Quote:
I'm not sure what you are responding here but I assume it is all upon some reply from me. You quoting yourself makes it a bit confusing, it would have been easier if you would have mentioned it.


Are you blind? Sure I'm answering you : " [Re: Diavolo] and sure I mentioned it : " And "I'll just mainly put some of my quotes for enabling your search: "

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Personally I do think meditation and all the mumbo-jumbo surrounding it is a bunch of bullshit but that's me. ... to me it is identical to smoking some weed and suddenly seeing it
How do you reach such a conclusion? On prejudice, preconceived thought or your own experience?
I took weed, coke, hero, speed... and I can tell you that this has nothing to do with meditation. Drugs draw you away from reality, meditation bring you closer to it.
If you're refuse to learn from others and choose to stay blind, I can't do nothing for you ! You're like those who think Satanism is BS but never opened TSB.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The crap-medium comment was not directed at you
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Medium: Hmm I sense something out there, it's brown and warm... might it be related to you?
Probably we don't speak the same English...


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
And no I don't consider everything occult as bullshit but honestly, most yes ... The second part of the SB is something I considered a waste of time, paper and money.
At least it's frank, but then refrain giving you opinion on thing you don't care, not interested in and don't know.
You look more having science as your religion than Satanism.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
They go way beyond linguistic limitations and can be potent in visual versions, think symbolry, too.
Blind again?
 Quote:
To me memes use language (oral, written, body language...) for transmitting from brain to brain

Would you be more happy with this phrasing (the sense does not change) "To me, meme are transmitted from brain to brain by the mean of language (written, oral, body language, symbols...".

Happy now ?

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#15173 - 11/30/08 03:04 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
"Easy, you take 2 persons, 1 with those psychological problems and one healthy normal person. From both persons you take some blood and run some test for hormone balances. Also; put them in a chair put some electrodes on their brain and start analysing brain patterns. You'll quite quickly see the chemical imbalances.."

Nope, im sorry but that would not work. My whole point was that any notions of a chemical imbalance is BS.

I believe you never read a book about human biology? My description works perfectly. Every emotion is triggered by hormones within our body. Every tought and idea is triggered by VERY small electrical pulses within our brain and by hormones. Every mental disorder can be detected by studying brain activity and putting some test on blood. Telling things as "chemical imbalances is bullshit" are the real bullshit. On the other hand if you tell me that 'energetic balances within our spiritual body and or Chakra's ar in imbalance' I would have agreed. However the scientist in me says you are quite wrong (at least with the knowledge I have know.. it can change if you can proove me I'm wrong.).
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#15174 - 11/30/08 03:16 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You shouldn't get hostile with me mate, if hostility is a dude, I'm his mother in law.

That being said, if you quote your own replies without mentioning what you are quoting for what reason, it can't be called different than confusing. I should not feel inclined to start puzzling before I can reply.

Now, it is my right to think meditation is crap and how I came to that conclusion is because of a reason I might know but didn't share, so all your assumptions are rather silly. I get the impression I touched something holy. I'm sorry that you are emotionally touched because I consider something crap which you clearly embrace so intensely.
You seem to forget, or don't know, that your consciousness might be nothing more than a user interface to cope with reality and that in its case, input data = output data. In no way you can escape your user interface and perceive reality beyond its limitations. You can sit on a rock for 40 days and nothing you learned is more than perception and as I stated before perception is everything but does not necesarilly equal reality. You can never perceive reality simply because the tool to cope with reality is of a simplified nature and not necessarily representing reality as is.

So please, don't go teachery on me on this one. I'm not here to take lessons and at my age it can be assumed I have made my mind up a long time ago on things. If you are however capable of explaining how you can grasp reality better under meditation than me through critical thinking, I'm willing to consider your explanation but I fear you'll always encounter the same problem and won't be able to go beyond experiences, which are as valid as mine under drugs or by holding my breath for minutes.

Now, please don't accuse me of being a scientific or rational satanist, I might -even with my lack of embracing the magickal part- know a thing or two more about it than you. I might accuse you of being a victim of the satanic virus and acting not too different from the period you were embracing god. My Satanism isn't a crutch, so don't bother acting as if, else I might be inclined to do the same and it will lead nowhere.

Now if you want to continue this, keep in mind that nothing is holy to me and I will speak my opinion upon it, if you like it or not. If you want to talk occult and not be bothered by me, go to the occult section, don't act as if I can't argue it here. And don't invoke higher powers like 'Satanism and occult' or 'rules and regulations' like people often do when they get too emotionally fragile after a reply. I expect people to have a backbone and able to cope with opposition.

Thanks,

D.

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#15175 - 11/30/08 03:38 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Oh and this is too hilarious to be true:

 Quote:
Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The crap-medium comment was not directed at you
Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Medium: Hmm I sense something out there, it's brown and warm... might it be related to you?
Probably we don't speak the same English...


It's not because I use you in something I write that I imply the poster I reply to. In this case, if you pay attention, you see that I start the sentence with medium:, maybe indicating that I'm using a fictious scenario where a medium is sensing energy of the victim that uses her services. The fact that you think I'm implying you are crap is humoring me but totally not intended. If I think you are crap, I will clearly state you are crap.

Again, perception is everything but not necessarily equals reality.

D.

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#15176 - 11/30/08 03:40 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
I may not be a moderator or someone in power here but, I would like to ask to stay polite and neutral to each other. One of the rules was "no flaming on each other". This is quite leaning towards this.

 Quote:
So please, don't go teachery on me on this one. I'm not here to take lessons and at my age it can be assumed I have made my mind up a long time ago on things. If you are however capable of explaining how you can grasp reality better under meditation than me through critical thinking, I'm willing to consider your explanation but I fear you'll always encounter the same problem and won't be able to go beyond experiences, which are as valid as mine under drugs or by holding my breath for minutes.

You know Diavolo, a far more better method I use for grasping reality is by UNDERGOING it. It is far more better then critical thinking and meditation. However these 2 can be used (just like you said) to get different perceptions of reality, but this doesn't imply it will be reality.
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#15177 - 11/30/08 03:49 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Picunnus]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Picunnus
The whole software issue was explained to me long ago in a way that stuck in my mind - matter precedes mind. Without matter, there can be no mind.


Perhaps “sentience” would be a better word to use than “consciousness” when discussing this matter. On a larger scale I cannot say that I agree that “mind” cannot exist without physical matter. To me it seems more logical that physical matter merely harnesses and exerts some control over various types of energy, that which it is compatible to harness. The most basic example would be remote controls or wireless phones. Energy is being harnessed to send and control information. We cannot see the energy that is being sent from the remote control to the television, but it’s clearly there. There may be different ways to pick up on the energy itself via various technologies, even if any of our human senses cannot detect that energy.

As for the standpoint some people may have that “you can’t see it if it isn’t there, therefore it must not exist,” I would challenge anyone on how to go about proving the existence of wind. It’s clear that wind exists as an atmospheric phenomenon, but wind in and of itself is something you cannot see. You can see the effects of wind, you can see the way it moves things around you, but how would a scientist go about explaining an invisible force? It’s so obvious that it exists, it’s been defined and labeled and accepted as a proven part of the world, but is still invisible to us. Knowing that I find it hard to accept the notion that it would actually be improbable that there are other things out there which in and of themselves are invisible to us.

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#15178 - 11/30/08 03:50 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Dimitri, I am polite.

You are right that undergoing or experience is a valid technique, if not best, in certain situations. But again, experience is how you interpret it. We can both have the same experience and have a different conclusion. I'm not a relativist, there is an objective reality out there. Outside of the field of experience there are different techniques to come to the same conclusions. Some might work for some and some might not work and some are nothing but form. If you'd go through philosophy, you'll notice a lot is closely in touch with what is stated in some science or even in lore, mysticism and occult but you have to dismantle the form and go to the essence.

D.

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#15179 - 11/30/08 04:04 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
We can both have the same experience and have a different conclusion.

Correct, our conclusion depends on our perception on reality and to every human that part is different. Moslty because of the "software" being programmed within our brain since out birth. But still because it is software it can be modified, only with more difficulties because it is standarised.

 Quote:
I'm not a relativist, there is an objective reality out there. Outside of the field of experience there are different techniques to come to the same conclusions.

True, to quote something from quantummechaniques wich must not be forget also: 'there is an objective reality, but we can't simply gasp it simply because of the fact we are in some sort of way subjectif'.

 Quote:
If you'd go through philosophy, you'll notice a lot is closely in touch with what is stated in some science or even in lore, mysticism and occult but you have to dismantle the form and go to the essence.

Doing that most of the time, I simply couldn't imagine how much things really could be connected with each other and how cryptic they have been written.
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#15180 - 11/30/08 04:24 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Cayce has been debunked as a fraud for a really long time.
http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Cayce,%20Edgar.html


James Randi makes a living telling cynics exactly what they want to hear. He plays the devil’s advocate and spends his life on one side of the fence. He makes a living at this, so his opinions are as biased as any hardcore religious nut. It’s entertainment with one form of shock value, much like what Criss Angel does. I don’t find him to be a reliable source to any degree. With regard to his million dollar psychic challenge, why would anyone subject themselves to something they know beforehand to be biased, why enter a contest that you know to be rigged against you? I’d be interested in hearing any of your Edgar Cayce “debunking” sources that come from people who make a living at something other than simply making people look bad for entertainment and profit.

The link that you provided proves nothing. It’s nice however that they mentioned the fact that Edgar Cayce never charged anyone anything for his services. In fact, his health took a toll for it and any donations that were given helped feed his family, the rest was used to set up a non-profit educational foundation. If he really set out to be a con artist he would have been rich with the interest he generated during his life, he would have turned the poor away and really not have cared about sick people dying. Regardless of what you think about his abilities, he spent his life helping people, not hurting them.

There was all of ONE passage quoted in that link that was cited for not making sense. This does not prove anything about his overall level of accuracy. The quote: “There will be the upheavals in the Arctic and in the Antarctic that will make for the eruption of volcanoes in the Torrid areas, and there will be the shifting then of the poles - so that where there have been those of a frigid or semi-tropical [sic] will become the more tropical, and moss and fern will grow. And these will begin in those periods in '58 to '98.”

This sounds to me exactly like global warming. If you’ve watched An Inconvenient Truth you’ll probably remember Al Gore talking about the industrial era being the time that began to change the balance of the Earth as we know it due to such a huge increase in pollution. Did that not begin in the fifties?

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#15181 - 11/30/08 04:33 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I'm not going into the debunk of it all but if someone wants to call his theory "scientific" he has to follow some patterns to provide evidence that his method is really scientific.

What Randi does, call him biased or not, is provide people claiming things, a scientific frame to provide that evidence.
If people are really convinced that what they do or can is true, I see no reason why they wouldn't quickly snatch the million dollar bonus.

The accusations that things are biased and that it is a set-up can't be explained in another way to me as 'backing off gracefully'.

D.

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#15182 - 11/30/08 04:55 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Thanks for your intervention Dimitry. It shows youngers can sometimes be wiser than olders (me included, I'm 41).

Critical thinking, meditation and experiences are complementary. I see meditation as an experience of the reality. They're things to learn from looking at your own mind.

However, meditation experiences is much more hard to express with words than rational thinking, due to its nature.

On way of perceiving the reality, I reported a "direct perception" experience about my pregnant sister. Blsk reported similar experiences. (see here ) I could explain it by something alike shunting the frontal cortex and having a "direct access" to subcouncious. I know it can look as faith and thus subject to criticsm here, but it's faith in yourself. Nothing to do with beliefs you get from others and swallow without any critical spirit or rational thinking.

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#15183 - 11/30/08 05:10 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'm not going into the debunk of it all but if someone wants to call his theory "scientific" he has to follow some patterns to provide evidence that his method is really scientific.


“The information in a great many different Edgar Cayce readings describes a world of thought forms, thought patterns, which are built up by individual and mass thought, planning and purpose held at the mind level. This thought world is a world of matter, but matter in an energy pattern which can be molded by mind. To a sensitive, a prophet, this world may seem as real as the three dimensional world. This thought world may be the world which is seen in precognition and prophecy. The action of will controls which thought pattern or thought form is drawn into three-dimensional expression. Will is free but is also conditioned at any given point of expression in matter at the earth plane level.” -- from Venture Inward: The Edgar Cayce Story by Hugh Lynn Cayce


I wasn’t getting into the science of Edgar Cayce, just pointing out that he demonstrated some amazing abilities while he was alive and that he used those abilities to help a lot of people. Perhaps one day science will find a definitive way to record and measure energy that has left the body. There was a time in history when the telephone was inconceivable, the internet was inconceivable, etc. but human evolution and the quest for new discoveries has always seemed to prevail, making things that are now a part of our daily lives seem almost trivial when they once were unimaginable.

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