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#15184 - 11/30/08 05:24 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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There has been lots on studies done on the myth of chemical imbalances, here is just one: http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-chemical-imbalance-myth/
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#15186 - 11/30/08 05:25 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Like I said, I'm not going to debunk Gayce, what might seem incredible to some might look insane to others. I'm on the insane side of the fence for reasons that are credible to me.

Maybe science might indeed one day open possibilities that are unknown to us nowadays, maybe they might also reaffirm old beliefs but it is as likely that it'll destroy any argument for them.

Still, until science can provide a decent argument, believing things unsupported by evidence must be considered as an act of faith. To me, there is no evidence, no supporting credible theory and no experience so I can't but conclude that it doesn't exist. Even if it exists out there without me being able to percieve it at any level and it remaining unknown, it equals non-existance.

D.

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#15187 - 11/30/08 05:28 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
On way of perceiving the reality, I reported a "direct perception" experience about my pregnant sister. Blsk reported similar experiences. I could explain it by something alike shunting the frontal cortex and having a "direct access" to subcouncious. I know it can look as faith and thus subject to criticsm here, but it's faith in yourself.


What you are describing in its most basic form is a level of higher awareness; however, it is a higher awareness of that which is around you making a connection to that which is in you. There have been numerous studies done on certain twins and the unusual bond they share, their ability to know when the other is experiencing something bad even when they are continents apart. If this is not the energy of the self experiencing an interconnection with a higher or different form of energy (and this happens so many times that it’s unrealistic to rule out coincidence), then how might one explain it?

You can have two cordless phones exchanging data on opposite ends of the world with a delay of just a few seconds, proving that the physical body can create sound converted into an information energy which is then dispatched into the atmosphere and harnessed again by another device which converts that information energy back into sound. Your television works in the same manner, scrambling and dispatching information into energy and then reconverting it back into its original source. If you look at your body as a device and your sister’s body as a device with the information energy being relayed between the two, it explains what you are describing.

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#15189 - 11/30/08 05:48 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: "Fabiano"
Difficult to argue without giving a little IT lesson indeed. I might be view as off topic but I can’t argue without it.

I highly doubt there is anything you could teach me about IT unless you are a master programmer. You are correct what follows this is off topic, and completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Software is something hardware DOES. You have failed to argue against this point.
 Quote:

The medium Dan was looking for is unproven but at least accepted by those believing in magic...

Incorrect! The Medium I was referring to was a medium for consciousness to continue after death. What you are doing is no different than what Miss De Sade is doing, equivocation. Energy transmission does not imply afterlife. Apples and oranges.

 Originally Posted By: "Tala De Sade"

James Randi makes a living telling cynics exactly what they want to hear. He plays the devil’s advocate and spends his life on one side of the fence

It is obvious to me that you're beliefs are faith based. Hell, you even used the old creationist canard about 'you can't see the wind, therefore immortal soul'

I will ask this one more time; What evidence do you have to support any of this mystical minded hocus pocus you have presented? Dropping the names of 'psychics' isn't helping your case at all. Where is the actual evidence? That you believe so strongly in the absence of any credible reason to do so is further evidence of your faith.

And to re-iterate AGAIN; Why is it that all this afterlife/psychic claptrap has never made it into the realm of mainstream science?
I can see two possible conclusions.
1: A large scale international conspiracy to keep this knowledge out of the public eye.
2: It isn't scientific, and is therefore ignored by science.

Why do I think you are going to choose door number 1?
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#15191 - 11/30/08 06:18 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I’ve always looked at everything around me as being energy-based, and if you look into quantum psychics at all there is a lot of evidence already out there proving this to be fact. Even our bodies have their own unique electrical impulses. If those electrical impulses can communicate with one another, I personally don’t find it far-fetched that they can make a connection on some level to an external source or even be converted into an external source once the physical shell of its perception becomes useless. As my fingers are typing the letters on my keyboard, I’m perceiving the computer to be a separate entity, which for all intents and purposes of the human being it is. Both are energy-based and vibrating at different frequencies.

That being said quantum mechanics tells us that not only when the vibratory energy is examined at the most microscopic level there is no separation, but also that the energy of thought has been proven to influence the vibration of that which we are surrounded by through a signal emitted by our brain (scientifically speaking an energy wave called quanta which holds energy packets which behave in a manner similar to particles). The body is like a conductor in which our sentient consciousness (the real essence of who we are) is harnessed by and experienced in the physical realm through. Again I would draw the comparison between a cellular phone being able to harness information energy. If your cell phone is turned off the information does not become less real, it simply cannot be received/harnessed by that cell phone (much like the human body being turned off at death). The phone is geared to a specific signal (your phone number) much like your physical body is geared to the energy of your sentient consciousness which allows it to be harnessed, translated, experienced through the senses.

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#15193 - 11/30/08 07:00 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
My beliefs are not faith-based, they are logic-based. That is the manner in which I approach all aspects of my life in how I choose to perceive my surroundings, by that which has proven to be the most logical to me. I have always defined myself as an open-minded skeptic which is why I’m just as interested in hearing opinions that contradict my own as I am in hearing things that support it. That being said I also have to acknowledge that every individual has experienced different things and reached different conclusions in their lives. We can’t all expect that to share the same logic since we will never all have the same experiences.

To be frank, and this is just speaking on a general note, I think that most people find it easier to wander through life fearing only the immediate consequences and not much caring to find an overall purpose. The suggestion that they will retain some memory of past lifetime experiences makes them uncomfortable because it suggests that they must at some point find meaning in things which they feel is beyond their comprehension, or things that they would just rather not think about. Most people find it easier to either remain ignorant or seek blind comfort in a religion that tells them everything they’ve ever done will be forgiven, therefore they can do whatever they want as long as they say they’re sorry afterwards. I’ve never taken either path. I’ve never found anything uncomfortable about the idea of life after death in whatever form it may take, so I think that the lack of discomfort simply allows me to think about and analyze the matter to a more extensive degree.

With regard to your question about the lack of psychic information in mainstream science: When does anything taboo ever make it into the mainstream? Countless books have been written on the matter, whether or not you consider that to be mainstream is up to you. It’s still a taboo topic and it’s still something that’s lacking in technological advancement. Numerous paranormal researchers have written books and papers about the various methods they employ, one of the best known I think would be How to Hunt Ghosts by Joshua P. Warren:

Warren, president of a paranormal research team, is at pains to distance himself from “wackos” and “charlatans“; he insists that paranormal research is a legitimate science (indeed, he says, in its pursuit of the unknown, “all science is a form of paranormal research“). Amidst metaphysical rumination about death, time and the mind-body problem, he comes up with an almost plausible theory of ghosts: they are the remains of our “unique energy bodies” that manifest themselves through “free-floating static electrical charges.” This framework helps him validate ghost lore via scientific terms; for example, ghosts are most active after dark when Earth’s magnetosphere is least distorted, he says. His practical ghost-hunting advice runs the gamut, from staffing (a 10-person research team is right for the average house) to liability waivers to PR (ghosts may enhance their outlines for photos if asked). Most important is a panoply of high- and not so high-tech gadgets, including audio recorders, night-vision scopes, infrared video cameras, electro-static generators and dowsing rods to capture every trace of the spectral evanescences under investigation. The surveillance apparatus is needed, according to Warren, to provide “objective evidence” that can “rule out conventional phenomena, leaving only anomalous activity.”

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#15198 - 11/30/08 07:33 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Miss De Sade,

 Quote:
I’ve never found anything uncomfortable about the idea of life after death in whatever form it may take, so I think that the lack of discomfort simply allows me to think about and analyze the matter to a more extensive degree.

This just means you are like 90% of people out there. There is a theory that god-belief/superstition of this kind is fairly natural to us, an evolved mechanism. It is a very rare person that is not inclined to take on these sorts of beliefs.
 Quote:

We can’t all expect that to share the same logic since we will never all have the same experiences.

Just what do you think logic means anyway? I don't think it means what you think it does. Logic is a method, not a set of conclusions. To be precise, logic is the study of the principles of correct reasoning. You have yet to employ any.

Look, I know where you are coming from. I find paranormal research interesting too. I do think the mind is capable of things that are not yet explained. I have had experiences that lead me to believe the phenomenon known as 'ghosts' is real, and I have also had very convincing personal experiences in the field of long distance thought/energy transmissions. What I will not do is make a gigantic leap and start making all sorts of assumptions about the nature of my experiences past what I can actually validate. This is logic.

Where we seem to part company is that I will not let this honest skeptical inquiry degenerate into a mess of unconnected and unexamined beliefs. I think it does a disservice to the people that are actually trying to look at things from a reasonable and scientific point of view.

The real answers lay in an understanding of biology and physics that we just don't possess yet. Maybe one day we will, maybe by keeping an open yet skeptical mind we may one day unlock these mysteries, and move them from the realm of magic and into the realm of science. That will be a great thing.

But looking to pseudoscience and bullshit artists for real answers will not yield and real knowledge. Only real science can do that.
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#15210 - 11/30/08 10:21 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Posts: 161
 Quote:
It is a very rare person that is not inclined to take on these sorts of beliefs.


Unlike you, I have had a lot of experiences in getting to know people and finding that a lot of them are not as comfortable with the idea of death and the prospects of what if anything comes afterward as you would suggest most people are. I have also had many experiences with dying people, people who thought little of the matter throughout almost all of their lives and then became almost obsessed with understanding what was going to happen to them. I’ve also had experiences with legitimate psychics and have been awed by the specific nature and accuracy of the things they were able to convey. Those are my personal experiences, and over many years of observation my “correct reasoning” as you put it has led to the formulation of my opinions. People are only able to “correctly reason” anything, no matter what the subject, based on the knowledge they have accumulated through personal experience. Such is the nature of life.


 Quote:
I have had experiences that lead me to believe the phenomenon known as 'ghosts' is real, and I have also had very convincing personal experiences in the field of long distance thought/energy transmissions.


How would you go about explaining your experiences of these things then?


 Quote:
What I will not do is make a gigantic leap and start making all sorts of assumptions about the nature of my experiences past what I can actually validate.


I’ve never made any gigantic leaps in assumption about anything. I’ve reasoned that the nature of who we are is energy-based and that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it merely evolves.

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#15214 - 11/30/08 10:51 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Unlike you, I have had a lot of experiences in getting to know people and finding that a lot of them are not as comfortable with the idea of death and the prospects of what if anything comes afterward as you would suggest most people are.

Well, that's just it. We at some point in our history became smart enough to become aware of our own mortality, our own impending demise. It could be argued that this 'god part of the brain' developed as a psychological defense against this apprehension.

I did not suggest in any way that 'most people are comfortable' with the idea of death, just that most find it comforting to take on belief about continuance, to alleviate this discomfort.
 Quote:

I’ve also had experiences with legitimate psychics and have been awed by the specific nature and accuracy of the things they were able to convey.

Most people that seek out advice from 'psychics' will indeed be convinced.The very fact that they are seeking out this sort of thing in the first place makes them inclined to believe that it works already, and cold reading can be very convincing in the hands of an expert con artist. Again, if there was science behind it there would be scientific data to back it, and there just isn't.
 Quote:

How would you go about explaining your experiences of these things then?

This is not meant to be offensive, but this is the exact same question christians ask when you tell them you don't believe that god created the universe. The fact is we don't have the data to 'know' where the universe came from, but we can be pretty damn sure the creationist account isn't true. We don't have all the available data to know 100%, but we do have enough to formulate reasonable theories.

My case is the same in that I know I had the experiences, but I do not know what caused them. Jumping to conclusions that fly in the face of all the science we DO have is rarely a good idea, nor does it lead to anything productive. But to answer your question, I have two pet theories.

1: I through the power of my own mind caused the manifestations that I witnessed. This would seem to be the most plausible, but there were several other people that witnessed similar things, and I don't find it likely that I caused all of those manifestations. There is the possibility of group hysteria, but the incidents were separate.

2: We only have 5 senses, which evolved randomly, with which to gather data about out surroundings. I find the idea that we just happened to develop the means to experience reality in it's entirety to be very remote. This leaves a very good probability that there is more going on around us than we have the means to experience. I think perhaps there may be other 'forms' of life, if you can even call it life. Not enough data!
I find this theory to be infinitely more probable than the effects of the brain existing with no brain, which is the common assumption. Why does it have to be dead people?
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#15215 - 12/01/08 01:06 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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 Quote:
I highly doubt there is anything you could teach me about IT unless you are a master programmer. You are correct what follows this is off topic, and completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Software is something hardware DOES. You have failed to argue against this point.


It's not reciproc Dan, I wouldn't dare to say I know everthing about IT and probably they're things you know and I don't. IT is so vast.

But for your information, I wrote hundred thousands lines of code in my life. Now I'm steering analysts which are themselves explaining to master programers what they have to code.

I invite you to read again my post as you seem still not able to make the distinction between a software and an algorithm.

That being said, I'm starting to be bothered with this thread and have the impression to waste my time.

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#15218 - 12/01/08 02:16 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I think what it boils down to between the two of us is a difference in experience and thus a difference in the conclusions we have each arrived at. I could offer various comparisons and illustrations, but I think what you’re looking for is a level of science and research which has yet to come to fruition in mainstream science. I personally have had more experiences and absorbed more information that would lead me to conclude that our energy/sentience does survive the death of the physical vessel, than I have experienced things which would support the opposite conclusion. If things should happen to reverse themselves I wouldn’t have a problem in changing my mind. But again, I’m drawing on my own unique experiences to form that conclusion and wouldn’t expect anyone else to. It is the burden and the blessing of individuality.
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#15227 - 12/01/08 07:06 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
In any question of the existence of some kind of intelligence or "spirit" remaining after death, there is a necessary element of faith, for obviously, no true PROOF can be given on either side. Certainly there is a rich tradition of anecdotal "evidence" in the existence of an after-life experience. Cultures draw from the wreckage of the past to build the essence of their futures, just as the greatest cities of the world are built upon the ashes of those that came before. The difference is that in the case of cities, brick and mortar can be proven and touched by all, whereas in the case of the survival of one's essence... call it soul, spirit, ether... all that can even possibly be felt is the gossamer fabric of "faith."

It's natural in human existence to want to believe that we are "worthy" of more than we are permitted to experience in our "four score years and ten" allotted to us on the planet. For many, it's a reward and a goal... makes sense, as man is at base a creature bred for competition and survival. Some see it as a cleansing and an ever evolving state of perfection toward godhead... makes sense, as who wouldn't want to have the chance to keep getting better and better until someday you're perfect? Thousands of ideas, and thousands of reasons why one would want them to exist are there for the choosing, but there are those (and in simple numerical ratio to those who choose to believe a small number) who find that each and every reason that one can give FOR the exceptance of an essence beyond the grave is somehow faulty. They demand "proof."

While we can argue the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin, we can never prove their existence, let alone the validity of even the concept of their existence. All beliefs must at some time be challenged, even within oneself, so that popular delusion, and indeed SELF delusion is held in check, that we as humans can progress and grow in intellect and in knowledge gained through introspection and demostrable proof that what we "believe" is actual truth.

So while we can mathematically figure out the speed of subatomic particles, the angle at which one can suspend the moon from a beam in space, the number of lightyears from here to a supernova on the other side of the galaxy and many other things, we are at a roadblock with a concept such as this for the simple reason that there are no set metrics from which we can base our arguements, other than faith, and faith is matter without substance, We have no set point except highly individual conjecture...FAITH.

Now, I find no personal truth in the existence of anything, other than my decaying body or ashes wafting on the breeze. I have no need for the belief in a "soul" or an "eternal essence" or any other name you might care to apply. It's a personally liberating truth that allows me to totally disregard any "eternal delights" in favor of experiencing THIS time and finding what physical, emotional and/or monetary rewards I can while I'm alive. It's a big part of what makes me ME as a Satanist. but ultimately cannot prove to anyone with a belief in that "soul or eternal essence" that I am RIGHT. They have the same faith in their "truth," and no matter how many mathematical theories, anecdotal evidences, scriptural references, etc., that they can come up with, ALL boil down to the exact same basis for my belief. Faith.

If there was some tangible and undeniable truth that could be demostrated either way, my logical mind would be intellectually bound to explore it. But short of dying and finding out first hand, none of us is likely to ever have that element of truth within our grasp. The best we can ever hope for in the debate of existence beyond the physical plane is detent.

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#15231 - 12/01/08 07:16 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Picunnus Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 101
Loc: Ohio, USA
I think we are picking at different points here. I was attempting to address an earlier expressed issue of whether consciousness can exist after the physical body is gone. I am not disputing the possibility of some force that can extend beyond the physical boundaries of the mind - like a cell phone perhaps, as you suggest. I am saying, after the cell phone disintegrates, what is there to harness the force?
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#15247 - 12/01/08 11:32 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Personally I don't know how anyone could make a faith based belief in souls and afterlife co-exist with a religion/philosophy of which the very essence is opposed to these things.

If you want to believe by faith, fine. But how does that faith coexist with Satanism? As Jake so eloquently pointed out..Satanism is about the here and now. Afterlife is nothing but spiritual pipedreams that distracts you from THIS, our ONLY life.

But aside from that, what do I care what other people believe? The only reason I even jumped into this discussion was this, from the original post.

 Originally Posted By: "Tala"

I’m also curious if there are any people who would define themselves as Satanists but would refuse to believe that consciousness survives death at all, despite the resounding scientific evidence that exists in the world today.

I have yet to see even a stitch of 'scientific evidence', resounding or otherwise, or even one other Satanist that believes in an afterlife.
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#15250 - 12/01/08 11:48 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
There has been lots on studies done on the myth of chemical imbalances, here is just one: http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-chemical-imbalance-myth/

You make my mind wander a bit. But still I'd say the skepticals mis-used a bit of the definition. To me chemmical-imbalance means that certain hormones and other body-controlling-particles vary in number within the whole body. You can say that our body is in a continous state of balance wich is quite normal. From what I read, those people took the words a bit litterary. They thought that certain hormones would be in "great" concentrations within our blood, thus causing an "imbalance" wich gives certain mental disorders. So I think they have just used a part of the whole definition to suit there own needs.
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