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#15358 - 12/02/08 06:58 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I have articulated a lot of things since the beginning of this thread. What some may define as rational or probable or even worth looking into more you just chalk up to being “not good enough.” Every author, writer, philosopher, etc. will have people who choose to criticize their work, offer up a different opinion, look for another way to see things. So the fact that you say someone has been criticized, be them someone I have referred to or not, proves nothing. In fact, throughout the evolution of our species, the people who made some of the greatest discoveries were most criticized by the popular opinion at the time. Those without enemies or opposition have nothing worthwhile to say.

Why don’t you try, instead of telling me you disagree because someone I’ve referred to has been criticized, to actually refer to the quoted material and formulate your opinion as a direct result of your own thinking on the concept at hand rather than telling me what other people think?

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#15359 - 12/02/08 07:24 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:



Why don’t you try, instead of telling me you disagree because someone I’ve referred to has been criticized, to actually refer to the quoted material and formulate your opinion as a direct result of your own thinking on the concept at hand rather than telling me what other people think?

Wow really? Now you are just being intellectually dishonest. You are also employing transference, by accusing me of precisely what you are doing.

To shut me up, all you have to do is tell me how the functions of the brain, which are essentially us, can function without the brain. Pointless meandering about quantum physics is neither here nor there, as it just doesn't apply. You'd know this if you had an understanding of QM. The macro is not the micro.


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#15361 - 12/02/08 08:17 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
[quote]Theoretically, if a Wiccan is doing a ritual to pray to different goddesses to affect change, who exactly do they think they are praying to if not a sentient energy of some sort? Why spend all that time honoring different deities and looking for results in communing with them if you hold onto the belief that a sentient energy cannot exist? It’s quite the contradiction. Not that I believe in any Wiccan deities, I just find it interesting that someone who does can adhere to such contradiction.[quote]

Yes, but I have met a witch (not sure if she's actually a wiccan) that looks to their gods as we do Satan in that it an archtype, not an actual entity.

It's quite possible my friend calls herself wiccan (out of some ignorance about the whole thing, I get the feeling she is more eclectic pagan anyway, from her celtic roots), when she really isn't.

I haven't actually gone into depth of conversations about this yet, but will be soon as she is being a big influence on my daughter, and I don't want my daughters head filled with to much wiccan bullshit. Although in fairness to my daughter, she is learning quite abit about the differant trains of thought from me anyway.

Yes I agree with you though, a strict wiccan would worship an actual diety, but like Satanism, it is probably a very over used word. I should perhaps have used pagan. I consider myself to be a pagan/satanist. I don't see a problem as I personally see the dieties as archtypes and I don't pray to them.

Zeph
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#15370 - 12/02/08 10:44 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
That is an interesting quote, and it makes sense if you believe that consciousness originated from the macrocosmic world or is strictly dependent on it. But in order to for something to be measured by the definitions of classical physics, it must be a physical system no smaller than an atom. I do not think that consciousness originated in the macrocosmic, I think it originated in the microcosmic and that as an essence unto itself it is energy-based. It is stored in the brain and the brain acts as an energy-transmitter to the limbs for as long as our energy/sentience stays confined there; we still retain the same thought processes when an arm or leg has been cut off. Clearly those areas do not house sentience. All perception really is, is our brains translating information once the input has been received. Our limbs work, our hearts pump blood, we manage to maintain a point of focus (our human shell) for as long as the body remains viable. Our bodies just weren’t built to last for hundreds of years.

To look at our bodies as the “large-scale macro systems” as the author has suggested means limiting them to the laws of classical physics. It only remains accurate to a certain degree. It would be like using a yardstick to measure a dime. The core of our brain would be a different matter. In physics, the physical system on a classical level only deals with SI units measuring, at the smallest, atoms and molecules. When you reach anything smaller than that (the subatomic) the laws of classical physics cannot be applied and SI units can only be measured by the laws of quantum physics. Neural transmitted molecules are but a system within a system, just as there are systems within atoms. The essence of who we are, in terms of technical placement, is in the brain.

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#15382 - 12/03/08 04:19 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
If what you say is true, then some people have been stupid forever and never learn.
How sad is that, to be eternally stupid.


During the French revolution, a few times when the head was cut off the mouth still moved and the eyes looked with horror at the crowds. Then it died, and stopped moving and was tossed on the pile with the rest.

In the end all you have is faith.
Faith that you don't really die, and part of you carries on thru the abyss.

I'm tired, when I go, I want it to be over, I sure as shit don't want to come back and do this all over again.

Morgan
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#15388 - 12/03/08 07:53 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Picunnus Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 101
Loc: Ohio, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tala de Sade

One of the things that I find interesting is the fact that we can see the light of stars that have long been dead. It just takes such a vast amount of time for the energy of that light to travel to a place where our eyes can see it after the star has burned out. I forget what the exact scientific term assigned to the phenomenon was, but there is information out there about radio transmissions from decades ago being picked up by satellite receptors orbiting the Earth. So it’s been proven that energy can exist beyond the realm of having a physical device to harness it.

Yes, but there are no NEW activites that continue to take place when the physical source ceases to exisit. I don't have a problem with the energy that makes up our consciousness continuing to exist - but it is no longer OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. It loses its form and thus can no longer function.
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#15415 - 12/03/08 04:13 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As I quoted, the brain and what happens there isn't subject to quantum mechanics. So you argue that when delving deeper into our stuff and going to atomic or sub-atomic level or as small as needed, it might be subject to quantum mechanics.
That's a silly argument because when at the normal level it might not be subject, why assume it might be subject at a deeper level, there is no indication beyond wanting it to act as such. If your argument is valid for the brain, it sure is valid for all other parts. Anyone ever seen his hand or ass do quantum behavior? No. So why is the brain an exception?

Your argument that we retain the same thought processes when an arm is cut off is flawed too. When we cut off an arm, we break the wiring between the brain and the arm. So, of course the thought processes remain the same. But if we damage the brain, you suddenly see that thought processes get damaged or warped too.

I cut some nerves in my hand, short story; bar beer bottle bikers. The things guys do when they are acting like guys. So two sides of two fingers are sleeping. Still, to my brain everything is perfectly normal unless I actually touch them with something, then I realize the lack of feeling again.
Another thing; I dropped down from rather high in a work related accident years ago. Amongst things, I crushed my skull into the concrete that hard that the inside of my ear ruptured. Sure beats a shattered skull so I aint complaining and for the funny fuckers; no I was like this even before. Now, the only thing I really lost there was some time. I can't remember shit from the moment I stood up there until I woke down and in wonderland again. If my consciousness isn't a part of my brain, why would it hide that period from me? My brain shut down for a while and my consciousness went out like every OS when getting a blue screen.

Check out commissurotomy in surgery and you'll learn that under conditions or in some cases they can split the consciousness into two. It contradicts your position because you'll notice that by damaging the brain, you can create a second center of consciousness. Again evidence of consciousness just being limited to the brain.

Your will to believe in consciousness surviving is clouding your judgement. You embrace fancy theories without anything to back it up beyond people saying so and ignore plain basic evidence found at a lot of levels.
Now mind you, I'm not bothered that you believe this stuff but I'm just wondering about the why.

D.

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#15452 - 12/03/08 11:52 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Tools, Ladies & Gentlemen; tools...

Afterlife?
Who the fuck knows.
Probably not...

I feel that it is fairly logical to say the the universal and/or inter dimensional sum of energy is a constant.
Nothing comes from nothing.

I also believe that Diavolo is absolutely right when he so vividly pictures the inhabitants of Earth as jackshit in the big something.

Whether "consciousness" is limited to the brain only?
Well, I find it a rather uncharming thought.
Our body learns and remembers on a broad and complex level...

I see myself as a rational individual, but at the same time I love it when consciousness is stretching beyond the borders of imagination.
Huxley anyone?

Kinda leaning more towards Jung than Freud.
I have always felt that actions can make a mark in the collective subconscious.

It would be a lesser world if the wonderful being of "magick" were to be peeled apart like Ibsens onion.
All layers, no core...

But then; I prefer the greys.
Fuck Black & White.
Hail Oliver Haddo!
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Contra Mundum!

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#15483 - 12/04/08 12:46 PM Enough [Re: Succubus666]
Disabuse Offline
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Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 220
Alright Tala, this thread has been brought to my attention. Mainly because this is highly illogical, and your rebuts are irrational.

Let me start off with a quote of yours.

 Originally Posted By: Tala de Sade
”It does not seem Satanic in my opinion to blindly dismiss anything based on the opinion of the ignorant social majority.”

Would it not be even more un-Satanic to blindly accept that which has not been scientifically proven without a doubt that it exists? This is not scientifically proven without a doubt. All you’re doing is trying to argue dogma that has put horse blinders on you.

First, you recommend we read The Afterlife Experiments. Have you even looked into the authors of that book? William L Simon focuses on the study of manipulating the human element of security. I sure hope that rings an alarming bell in your head. He manipulates human thought to make humans feel more comfortable with themselves, or does it to wreak havoc in their psyche. Go ahead, look him up. You’ll find his name on these other books.

Books with William L. Simon co-authoring: (Those with *** also have Gary Schwartz name)
***The G.O.D Experiments: How Science is Discovering God in Everything, Including Us
***The Energy Healing Experiments: Science Reveals Our Natural Power To Heal
The Art of Intrusion: The Real Stories Behind the Exploits of Hackers, Intruders and Deceivers
The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security


You want to get me started with Gary Schwartz? Alright then. Why is it that all three of Gary Schwartz' books have a co-author who is a professional manipulator of human emotion? Gary Schwartz is a PhD; I am sure he is more than capable of writing these books on his own scientific merit… or is he? Hmmmm….

Even though this is reported by Fox News, I can’t ignore it. They have absolutely no reason to lie about this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6834964643442474141

Are you kidding me? 3.3 million?

In later posts, you say the experiments were “highly controlled”. How do you know this? The book mentions it? Not good enough, I want video proof of their findings. Show me video that is unaltered. Surely, if it is as controlled as you say, in this day in age, they surely would have recorded their subjects. I refuse to trust a book that is co-authored by someone like William L. Simon.

It appears to me you have fallen victim to a master of manipulation teaming up with a scientist that knows big fancy words trying to tap into the inner core of the human psyche, and manipulate it to make them money. There is absolutely NO solid proof.

If you choose to reply to me Tala, it better be with absolute defining scientific proof. I want links, videos and anything else you can get me to prove your theory. Otherwise, it is just that, a theory.
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#15511 - 12/05/08 12:51 AM Re: Enough [Re: Disabuse]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
It’s nice that it has been “brought to your attention” that I’ve actually stated an opinion and discussed why I have that opinion, but it would be nice if you actually read the entire thread before deciding you have a problem with it. I have mentioned previously that my opinion is based on the sum total of things I have experienced personally, and that I would be more than open to changing my opinion should that paradigm shift. Not once have I even suggested that my opinion was based on any sort of dogma or religion. That was a term that YOU decided to use. In fact, in my very first post on this matter, I stated very clearly that I had no interest in any dogmatic or religious perceptions regarding consciousness. So if someone has a problem with my opinion, it would be nice if they had the balls to use the personal messaging system rather than whining to the management.

I started this thread purely out of an interest in hearing other perceptions on the matter, whether they contradicted mine or not. That would be the basis of having any open-minded discussion with anyone about anything. Some people have actually been able to articulate themselves well and actually given me further things to consider, others have simply gone on to reiterate the point that there are people out there who call themselves Satanists who lack the capability to articulate anything intelligent at all. So I wouldn’t consider it a waste of time either way. I wanted more to think about and a better understanding of the human race, and I got it. What I was not expecting however was someone like you coming at me from a point of suggesting that what I’ve written is not thought out.

I’ve chosen not to share some of my personal experiences, but I don’t agree with your opinion that there is no rationale behind mine. I’ve stated very clearly that this is my opinion based on my own experiences. I’ve stated very clearly that I’ve always been open to having my opinion changed, and I furthermore haven’t done anything along the lines of trying to tell other people what to think. I’ve shared my opinion and some of the reasons that I have that opinion. I’ve responded to the posts I thought were worthy of response and that I had time to respond to, maybe I irritated a few ignorant people by not responding to them, but when it comes right down to it I don’t think I’ve said or done anything that contradicts the ethics of conversation the founders of this forum set out.

And just so there is not any confusion, I am posting this directly in response to your criticism and not as a scientific inquiry. If you’d like me to I can reply to the latter half of your post - that is if you actually care to have a conversation - I don’t have a problem doing so. Schwartz was at war with the Fox network before his book was even published, he caused them bad PR when the book was published, so frankly I would be surprised if they weren’t looking for excuses to do the same. So I will have to politely contradict your opinion that “they have no reason to lie” about it. And I’m sure I do have faith in the idea that sentience survives death to the same degree that people have faith in the idea that it does not. All it boils down to is what each person has experienced and how they have accumulated knowledge to form an opinion in either direction.

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#15568 - 12/05/08 11:21 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Disabuse,

Sorry for going on with this thread, but as it's not locked...

Diavolo, when I read:

 Quote:
Now, the only thing I really lost there was some time. I can't remember shit from the moment I stood up there until I woke down and in wonderland again. If my consciousness isn't a part of my brain, why would it hide that period from me? My brain shut down for a while and my consciousness went out like every OS when getting a blue screen.


I'm not sure we're well aligned on the consciousness definition, hence may be the confusion. However, it's not well easy for me to define it... The remaining could appear a little it "unstructured" but I hope be able to pass my "message".

1st, one can distinguish 4 main states of mind:
- awake with thoughts
- awake without thoughts
- asleep with dreams
- asleep without dreams

Where/what is your consciousness in each of these states according to you?

2nd, coming back on your experience you probably had a concussion. As consequences, you were unconscious at first and you suffer of some amnesia later on. Let’s not mix unconsciousness and amnesia. Once I took “Rohipnols” with beers. I was conscious during my “trip” I have clean friends who reported me I had discussions with them. May be not “well conscious and fully aware but conscious enough to speak. But on the day after, when I woke up it was to big black hole in my memory! Not remembering does not imply not conscious.

3rd, you can illustrate your experience as a reboot of the OS. But what about comas? Some persons can stay for years in an unconscious state. Then, without any external intervention on the brain, they wake up and come back to consciousness. From which cause this effect is produced if it’s not from the brain (which apparently does not change radically)?

You can see the hardware as sustaining the software and even generating it (It’s hard for me to believe that some nuts and bold can write any intelligent piece of code) but you can’t deny that the running computer can also be viewed as hardware driven by software. Software steering the screen to show me what I’m typing. As like the learning process causes a remodelling of our neural network. The cause-effect flows are opposite in both views.
I personally think this results in dual thinking that tends to divide a whole thing in pieces by the mean of concepts. In one sense, a software without hardware is not more meaningful than hardware without any software (even firmware). I already said I have a malaise in splitting me in a mind and a body. I AM my body AND my mind (and my feelings, and my memory, and my personality…)
Could the whole be bigger than the sum of the parties?


Coming back consciousness’ definition, if your view of consciousness is close to “awake” (with and without thoughts) I thing there is a huge gap with my (and probably Tala) understanding of consciousness. I personally see it more as what the Buddhist call the sixth sense. The sense by which we observe (ourselves or the world)

I would be pleased to have your views on this. In this thread, in another one or in PM. I let you decide as you’re a more senior member than me...

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#15580 - 12/06/08 04:37 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course in the case of consciousness the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts. You can dissect a human as much as you want, you won't find consciousness. That's the main problem at the moment and time will tell if they can ever pass that barrier.

I'm a materialist at this level. Although we talk about consciousness in a seperate manner, consciousness = brain = body to me. It's a side effect, some epiphenomenon. It feels as something different but doesn't need to be.
Although we can't pinpoint where it is, or what actually triggers it, we can see and trigger effects telling us something about it.

I've been under influence of stuff a lot and rather familar with the black gaps in my memory. But what I think is the problem of this is not as much consciousness as the lack of storing stuff. I've known a couple of real drunks during my days and they all have the same problem; short-term memory. They can ramble for ages about the days or yore but can't pop up anything from a day ago. Brain affects consciousness again.
If consciousness was not affected, like in my head-reboot, it wouldn't suffer those gaps. It's the same with a computer, if it reboots before you save a file, that file is lost. If your drive is corrupt and doesn't store, you suffer the same problems. If your life is saved inside your brain and your identity depends upon those memories, consciousness or your identity can hardly be solid when the brain dies on you.

Consciousness to me is an internal conversation. At times it doesn't need thoughts. Animals could have some rude level of consciousness that is based upon perception only. Humans have a very complex one compared to that, largely due to language. So you can have consciousness while being awake with our without thought, as you can have consciousness when being asleep dreaming or not. But consciousness is not a static product. Like I said some replies ago, your identity is dependant upon your brain. The person you are now is coalition-limited and if the brain decides differently, upon input or disturbances your personality would shift accordingly.

I'm not too sure about sleep and consciousness because in most cases, dreams are what your remember. I don't dream very often, actually I hardly ever dream at all. If I don't remember them, they don't exist. So there is no short-term storage fluke in my memory. I can easily look upon it as a defragmentation of my brain or memories and the occasional dream as some short-term memory fluking while restoring things. It's even debatable my consciousness was active, or rather my personality was actually active while it all happened.

I think we should make a difference between consciousness, as in being aware and the highly complex identity result we humans experience. As I have mentioned, in surgery, we are able to split consciousness in two awareness centers, resulting in humans also two identity centers. It could go so far that you can be 50% christian in one part and 50% satanist in the other. You can believe two highly contradictory things because you have a dual-identity.

All these things do nothing but reinforce the materialst in me.

This is a quick reply, probably not totally coherent at some levels but I'm at my partners and have to battle myself to the computer, quickly responding before her kids glue themselves to the screen again, so excuse me if I didn't elaborate enough or touched all points.

D.

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#15607 - 12/06/08 10:13 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I also have very few time for reacting on this, sorry.
But I would like to mention lucid dreams just for not forgetting it and possibly coming back on it later...

But I'm happy we highlighted the "difference between consciousness, as in being aware and the highly complex identity result we humans experience".

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#15623 - 12/06/08 03:24 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Take the time you need. I'm rather familiar with lucid dreaming, at least the horror versions, so include it if you like.

I'd like to mention that even when we'll be drifting from the initial subject, consciousness as being afterlife-resistant by definition needs to be identity centered. After all, that is what the mediums claim to contact. Simple awareness, no matter how we'll define it, can hardly answer a question.

D.

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#15625 - 12/06/08 03:55 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I'd like to mention that even when we'll be drifting from the initial subject, consciousness as being afterlife-resistant by definition needs to be identity centered. After all, that is what the mediums claim to contact. Simple awareness, no matter how we'll define it, can hardly answer a question.

And this is really the bottom fucking line. The identity is patently centered in the brain and the evidence for this is overwhelming, as you have already touched upon. Even if some phantom quantum energy could somehow remain as a cohesive 'thing' once the body died, everything that person was is gone. So who cares?
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