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#15709 - 12/07/08 03:45 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Yes, our latest posts were more about Consciousness than about Consciousness and Death.

But on this I already gave my opinion:
 Quote:
However there are thing that are hardly conceivable for a rational mind, like :
- consciousness after death (mainly for the reason given by Diavolo)
- knowing the future (needing access to some information repository alike akashic records and raising questions on fate, destiny & free will )
- some of the magic mentioned in TSB


On this we're quite aligned I think. \:\)

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#15880 - 12/10/08 01:40 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
From what I understand about sleep and the reasons why your brain essentially ďpowers downĒ for a period of time every night is that itís a survival mechanism, physically and psychologically. Have you ever noticed how staying awake for days at a time makes you hallucinate, impairs your motor functions, and generally makes you feel like youíve taken some really bad drug? Our species has not evolved to stay awake for such a long period of time; our minds cannot handle it. Our bodies go through a sleep cycle to regenerate, repair, level out. I donít think itís worth getting into a philosophical debate on dreams in this thread, but part of dreaming is a survival mechanism, something to entertain our minds so our bodies stay asleep. Weíve all had experiences with an external sound or sensation translating into our dreams. That happens to help us stay asleep and complete the cycle.

On the concept of consciousness and thought, I think itís interesting that our thoughts make up such a large part of who we are (some might even say they are the essence of who we are), yet they are completely intangible. You can actually hear your own voice in your head, but no one else can. You can see images in your mind that no one else can see. So is this purely a function of the brain, or is it an external source being harnessed by the brain for as long as the brain is ďturned onĒ and the body is alive? On this subject I would recommend the book The Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav. Even The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot would be an interesting read.

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#15885 - 12/10/08 04:01 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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We need sleep yes, when being deprived of it enough, for a long enough period of time, we will likely die at some point.

There are theories that when we dream, we reprocess the information absorbed that day and link it up with old information stored, increasing our survival options. It makes sense, during the daytime our brain is flooded with information from our senses and our awareness is limited to a degree of it. If you look around, you only notice that which you put your attention to, and a lot of other things, your brain percieves, through your senses, is stored but not seen by your consciousness. I doubt your brains stores all in your permanent memory and maybe dreaming is some side-effect from a mechanism that gets rid of trivial shit and perma-stores the important.
Fact is, dreaming is not limited to the human brain, animals do it too, so it's a brain-thing.

I do think that consciousness and thoughts are purely limited to the brain and not linked to any external source. The truth is in the exceptions. If you look at people hearing other voices in their heads or having psychotic episodes, you see the normal state being affected by something, call it brain damage or chemical imbalance or whatever you like. What they have is an abnormal state of mind, a brain functioning in a not as supposed manner. Not all can be helped but the fact that some can be helped by either surgery or drugs is clear evidence that there is no external link.

D.

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#15998 - 12/11/08 08:44 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
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Loc: US
I always thought that dreaming was more of a dump for the subconscious, a landfill where all the weird shit went. Certain conscious thoughts and incidents in real life that were initially perceived as inconsequential could actually be significant to one's subconscious and be stored for future recall.

Every dream I have, even the relatively tame ones, have some fucked up element/s in them, and some are recognizable as coming from my conscious state of mind, being portrayed in some twisted manner in my subconscious dream state. Just last night, I had a terrible dream about my mom being dead, and throughout the dream I felt as if a great weight was being pressed down on me, I was so sad, missing her so much, feeling as if I didn't have a chance to tell her how I much I loved her. In reality, my grandpa had died Thanksgiving weekend, and my mom had been sending me some strange texts like, "I love you, just wanted you to know" the past few days, as if she was needing some affirmation of love from me. My subconscious must've tied the death of my grandpa to my mom, who was in need of emotional attention, and made it into a subconscious spew dream.
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#16016 - 12/12/08 01:36 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Nemesis]
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
When it comes to subconscious mind and dreaming one thing has baffled me. When you have a dream that you're falling and right when you wake up you feel like you bounced. Some people have stated it is a form of astral projection and the bounce is re-entering your body. That implies your mind can exsist without body. Niether can be proven by science. All one can do is assume.

For there to be consciousness after death is absurd. There would have to be a source of energy. Energy cannot be created or exausted, it can only be transfered. To believe the mind can function with out a brain one would have to believe a light bulb can function without electricity.

The only true life after death is as worm and plant food. In wich no part of yor "soul" will transfer.

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#16030 - 12/12/08 12:13 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Butterz]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

Some people have stated it is a form of astral projection and the bounce is re-entering your body.

Yes. Some people believe they are Napoleon, too.

The sensation you describe is your brain transitioning between what it thinks is real in the absence of sensory input and the restoration of 'objective reality' through the reconnection of the senses that comes with 'consciousness'. Belief creates reality (or at least the sensation of reality) and the transition between the 'reality' of a really vivid dream and the reality given to us by our senses and concious mind can sometimes cause feelings of vertigo and/or motion.
No metaphysical hokey pokey required to explain this one.
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#16379 - 12/17/08 03:34 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
Dreaming is a subject which will fascinate humans until the end of time. It seems more likely that the Earth will become uninhabitable long before we have a chance to answer all the questions out there regarding the workings of the brain/mind. Whatís ironic is that there is such widespread fascination with it, but at the same time the scientific community still considers any research into the afterlife to be a taboo subject. I donít think that scientists in the western world are geared toward understanding anything outside the scope of the immediate experience of the human body. Here itís generally thought that either there is nothing after death, or there is but we wonít possibly know what until we get there, case closed. In the east medicine is practiced with the underlying belief that that we have a soul and problems can be energy based. Each part of the world makes a natural assumption. Those assumptions may contradict one another, but both have devised some incredible treatments and understandings of the mind and body.

I respect your opinion although I cannot say I agree that sentience, our individuality, is purely a matter of organic function. The best evidence I can see for that are the vast, unusually accurate sightings of ghosts that have been reported by everyday people for as far as our recorded history dates. That they would so often be reported to have appearances and mannerisms that match a person who is deceased that once lived in a specific place is uncanny. It is an energy which exists independently of the physical and is not limited to what we know to be the laws of the physical world. In certain environments it is possible to pick up on these energies with electronic equipment and our own five senses. Iím not an expert on the subject, but I know the hows and whys have been addressed in a wide variety of literature, both theoretically and in terms of what has been proven with science in terms of capturing clear impressions and ruling out other atmospheric phenomena.

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#16383 - 12/17/08 04:43 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't think western science views afterlife as a taboo but more as a ridiculous concept and a waste of time, energy and most important; money.

The East has a different approach yeah, there is much more duality in it all but personally I am not convinced it is better than our rather materialistic approach. It might be better at the level of effect like placebos, I don't argue upon that.
In the past I had some back-problems, bad enough to seek some treatment. I've been, prescribed by the doc, to the crack-yer-bones-till-the-air-pops guy, been used as a pin-cushion to solve the physical problem, had electricity put on and it resulted in me telling the guy after some treatments I wasn't paying to get worse. So I did what a Westerner should do, said 'Fuck You China', went to a doctor and told him to shoot cortisone up my back. It didn't take an hour for my problem to be solved. So if I got a problem bad enough to see a doctor, I tell him to dope me up.
It might work different for others but I fear I have a skeptical body.

I can't believe ghosts are reality for a multitude of reasons. First because as a theory, it makes things so complex that this triggered complexity is probably a good argument why it is likely wrong.
The second the vast amount of contradictions and illogical parts in most sightings.
A third being that with all those sightings, and mind you, if I browse around it seems that there are more ghosts than pets in this world, I didn't see any on prime-time news. One could say that technology fails or fall short to register it (and I imply this in a valid scientific evidence manner) but maybe there isn't anything to register in the first place. Technology is like advanced human sense, exponentially increasing the range humans are limited to, so it is rather strange that a human could perceive what this technology can't.

D.

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#16388 - 12/17/08 05:18 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

I can't believe ghosts are reality for a multitude of reasons.

I am in the same boat. Even having seen one close up, in a place where many others had similar experiences, is not enough to convince me of 'ghosts'.

I am, however, convinced unexplained phenomenon happens. Absolutely convinced. The fact that is as yet unexplained makes it hard to prove(or even explain...duh!) any of it, for reasons which should be self evident.

The dichotomy is this; Either there is no unexplained phenomenon, and we already understand all the fundamentals of the universe, or we don't. I am in the latter camp.
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#16461 - 12/18/08 02:22 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I can't believe ghosts are reality for a multitude of reasons. First because as a theory, it makes things so complex that this triggered complexity is probably a good argument why it is likely wrong.


Most scientific discoveries originally appeared so complex that it was naturally assumed they could not be real or would never be proven. It took forever to figure gravity out, even while there was clear evidence that it existed it was a long time before it could be explained. As a non-scientist much of the world around me is too complicated to understand in any in-depth complexities, in terms of formulas and measurements, laws and theories. But I turn on my cell phone and it receives a signal, I can use it to instantaneously communicate with a person on the other side of the world. The sun sets every night and comes back the next morning. What goes up eventually comes down.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
A third being that with all those sightings, and mind you, if I browse around it seems that there are more ghosts than pets in this world, I didn't see any on prime-time news.


The news has more to do with instilling fear and reporting events that effect a great deal of people on a more practical basis. Stories involving ghosts however have become a more mainstream thing as far as television goes: Paranormal State, Psychic Children, Ghost Towns, Unsolved Mysteries, Ghost Hunters, Psychic Detectives, Ghost Trackers, Montel Williams, Ghost Adventures... And those are just some of the television shows that deal with the matter from a non-fiction perspective, nevermind stories like Medium and Ghost Whisperer.

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#16473 - 12/18/08 04:21 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Tala de Sade
And those are just some of the television shows that deal with the matter from a non-fiction perspective.

Most ghost shows have some kind of disclaimer that they are provided for entertainment purposes only (in the UK at least!).

I have yet to see any remotely rigorous epistemic standards applied to a 'serious' ghost documentary - whether sold as entertainment or otherwise. (I exclude debunking shows here)

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#16482 - 12/18/08 06:40 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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But ghosts have nothing to do with scientific discoveries. What happened to kobolds, dragons, unicorns, elves, vampires, werewolves, angels and demons. Just like ghosts they have been sighted throughout history. We don't take anyone serious that does pseudo-scientific research into unicorns or goes out there with a tin-foiled hat, nightvision gear and ultra-sound recorders to prove werewolves or demons exist. In those cases we don't need more than 3 seconds to state that it's a myth or plain bullshit. So why is it all so different for ghosts in your mind? Because the numerous sightings? Because so many people think it is true? If that is an argument (actually it's a falacy), we have to accept that god exists, and the devil, and heaven, hell, praying works, miracles do happen, jesus loves us. Same argument or rather fallacy.

Take distance for a second from ghosts and make a logical list of all requirements needed for ghosts to be able to exist. Then look at how plausible all those requirements are.

D.

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#16522 - 12/19/08 10:48 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
Ghosts are different from things like werewolves and unicorns because of the simple fact that such creatures are thought of as physical beings with specific characteristics; that if they existed they would walk among us. The earth has been explored extensively enough to rule out the existence of these creatures. What exists in the physical and what is energy-based are two completely different realms of thought and experience.

Iíve heard countless stories of everyday people experiencing unexplained phenomena which would best be explained as something energy-based. I canít say Iíve heard the same of people experiencing werewolves or discovering anything wearing a tinfoil hat. There are people out there who have mental illnesses or too much of an imagination, and then there are everyday people who have some very surreal experiences. How do you go about explaining countless people witnessing the same non-physical entity, providing the same description and mannerisms experienced on separate occasions?

Religion has nothing to do with non-physical entities. All religion is man-made. What exists in this world and beyond it would exist still without the advent of religion, the following of dogma. Heaven and hell are concepts devised by such religions. The phenomena of ghosts is something which has been experienced by people from all walks of life.

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#16524 - 12/19/08 11:12 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
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But you don't know if they are energy based. You're making that up, or embracing it because it fits a possible escape route out of my argument. You can't at the one hand say science isn't advanced enough to detect or prove ghosts and at the other claim they are energy based. If there is no proof, you don't know if its energy.
So there is no difference with vampires or werewolves. They can only be spotted under certain conditions and have the ability to stay in the dark when willing. It's so easy to dodge every reasonable argument and keep adapting it to make it fit my demand. Why do werewolves change with a full moon? Because they have some mutant DNA-string and when the lunar pull is heaviest, remember humans being mostly water, this chain of DNA code becomes dominant and adapts them. Pulling this all out of my ass but it is as valid as claiming ghosts are energy based.

Countless stories...
Mass-delusion anyone? How can you explain the many people that saw Mary... which turned out to be nothing but a lightdisplay on a window, affected by water. How do you explain the many people witnessing a UFO... which turned out to be nothing but a laser-trick. How can you explain the many people seeing the monster of Loch Ness... which turned out to be nothing but a wave. People are amazing at deluding themselves, the brain is a superb tool to do that.

Love is something experienced by people from all walks of life, never seen one claim it is an entity shaped as a cupid shooting arrows in yer ass. And religion has everything to do with non-physical entities. Religion is based upon it and I'd even say that believing in ghosts borderlines religion. Maybe god isn't visible in it but once you start to map the conditions, a creator will pop up. Afterlife and/or ghosts bring god into the picture.

That it's all man-made I won't deny.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/19/08 11:21 AM)
Edit Reason: added stuff

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#16526 - 12/19/08 12:23 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
You can't at the one hand say science isn't advanced enough to detect or prove ghosts and at the other claim they are energy based. If there is no proof, you don't know if its energy.
If ghosts are indeed made up of energy, science would detect them. Sometimes I wander what those "ghost-speakers" are talking about. They simply have no clue about science and the possibilities there are. Energy means elektricity, this means electromagnetism and this means it is detectable. And there is no such thing as "differen sorts of energy". Also I heard some idiots say they exist out of anti-matter. But in my humble opinion I know very well so that they should be annhilated within a mere second.
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