Page 9 of 13 « First<7891011>Last »
Topic Options
#16547 - 12/19/08 09:24 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
THANK YOU. That is in my opinion one of the biggest intellectual cop-outs people tend to fall back on.

There is no distinction between "physical beings" and "energy beings" because energy IS physical. It is just as tangible a part of our world as sound or light, and if people could see "spirits" occasionally or whatnot, then so could machines- and machines would do a much better job at it, I might add.

Yes, technically there could be an alternate, undetectable dimension with pink unicorns and fairies and gnomes and cookie-baking elves, but until you actually have any substantial proof beyond seeing weird smudges on photos, there's no reason to assume so.
_________________________
ęRecibe, °oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta vŪctima que sacrifico en tu honor.Ľ

Top
#16551 - 12/19/08 11:51 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dimitri]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Dreams? Do you actually dream when you sleep? Everyone around here apparently does not when I've asked them. Funny, huh?
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

Top
#16559 - 12/20/08 02:36 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: paolo sette]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I honestly tried to read all this sometimes rational overload of dog poo, but I now remember why I never enter the "philosophy" section of this forum... What is it called... hypergraphy? Jesus, Tala, I like you, I like you (Pee Wee Herman voice), but there's gotta be a better or more efficient way of summing some shit up.

Now, I'm not only depressed, but I have a headache. Or an eyeache. Or a headache caused by an eyeache. Or...

So anyway... no one has talked about Frankenstein... so I thought now would be a good time. I know Halloween is over, but bear with me, and we can see this thing through together. If you already read all that other shit, than my extraordinarily loooong post shouldn't bother you in the slightest.... you gots stamina, right?

Frankenstein. Where are all the Frankenstein monsters? "Oh where, oh where has my little Frankenstein gone? Oh where oh where can he be?" (a song I've been working on)

Well, it's actually an interesting book, and if we take anything here worth a damn, maybe, just maybe... we can actually get a Frankenstein... or "Universal Soldier" at the very least.

The human body does run on electricity, I'm hoping we can all agree upon that. Can we? I mean, let's just take what we know biologically and knock this shit down, right?

Our skeletal muscles, heart, and other "smooth muscles", brain and spinal column do in fact transmit and receive chemical/electrical impulses, via neurotransmitters and chemically via hormones, in order to carry out their respective jobs... number one - keeping us alive. I'm trying to separate these thoughts so you can refute later if you don't agree, but I hope you're with me so far.

So, now, though this may be a topic for another thread altogether... "What is this thing called consciousness?" (taken from "What is this thing called Love?"- Cole Porter... I like Frank's version best).

I mean, lets obtain the body, and we can get the organs, hot and ready like Little Ceaser's... set up some extracorporeal circulation unit, get the juice, blood, isotonic, hypertonic, hypotonic solutions, whatever, and get the electricity...

It's alive! It's Alive!!!!

Or not. And why not? And maybe a more creepy question... do you think it's been tried?

And maybe even more creepy... do you think it may have worked? ('Cause you know what, I think some crazy-asses have actually tried....)

I don't really think it worked either, not for lack of trying, however.

And this, my dear brothers and sisters is the rub, and perhaps the very crux of the the thing, which took so long to read, and was in fact, very painful to read. And by saying that, I mean Tala de Sade's original question.

For "life" itself, is very mysterious, and there is not one thing that can answer that "universal question" - maybe Douglas Adams got close... "the answer is 42" - that is about as much comfort as this world offers, and probably the best answer offered yet.

I've got some personal reasons for "looking into" this, but as I've been thinking... even if I saw a thing, or heard a thing, or actually believed a thing to be "true", it would definitely not make it so for you. And, I certainly wouldn't waste my time proclaiming such a thing to anyone. It would be vulgar, and I would be seen as a madman.

So this is a circular argument, and one that will NEVER be proven one way or the other. Unless of course someone comes back from the dead... like Jesus is supposed to do... and then we're definitely all fucked here anyway...


Just be ever vigilant, I implore you... of neighbors with bolts in their neck...

David.


Edited by daevid777 (12/20/08 02:43 AM)
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#16665 - 12/21/08 08:00 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
All the evidence I have ever seen points to consciousness being an effect of the physical brain.


Not to mention that emotions are an effect of the physical brain as well. And as far as consciousness itself coming from the brain, take into consideration loosing consciousness. While boxing, if a man is hit hard enough the right way, he can loose consciousness. This is evidence that the physical body is at least partly responsible for consciousness. Plus you can't forget how drugs can influence your consciousness as well. The way drugs work is by triggering different chemicals and neurotransmitters inside the brain. While under the influence of drugs, your level of consciousness may change. You may feel confused or think and perceive things differently than in a normal conscious state. This is because of chemical reactions occurring in your brain. This can happen on it's own as well, if one happens to have any type of mental health issue or anything along those lines. This is even more evidence of the physical brain causing consciousness. If consciousness was the effect of anything else, like a soul of some sort, these things would not be apparent due to the fact that they are mere chemical reactions and couldn't have any effect on a "soul".


ps: I know I am responding to a post from the beginning of the thread, as I was reading from the beginning and felt I should add to what was said in the first few posts.


Edited by Mike (12/21/08 08:02 PM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16667 - 12/21/08 08:39 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If I didn't know any better, I would say you are agreeing with me.

You are making sense. I guess you took my advice and started to use your noodle.

high5
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#16668 - 12/21/08 08:54 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Thanks. I guess I just realized logic is something to value. So is rationalization... You need to question everything until it makes sense.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#16774 - 12/23/08 02:12 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
This thread has definitely gone off-topic more than a few times. But at the same time, this is a very broad topic with many different angles, so in a way that is to be expected. Iím fully aware that I may be perceived as the ďblack sheepĒ of this conversation. I have an opinion many people do not agree with, and Iíve even witnessed some jumping on the bandwagon, wanting to gain approval by chirping in with the popular opinion. Iíve also noticed that some people are afraid to say anything, not wanting to become another black sheep and go against the popular opinion; a few have even sent me personal messages stating that. So overall the developments here have been interesting to watch, from my perspective anyway.

I have to laugh at your Frankenstein comparison (in a nice way). It just isnít logical on so many levels, and if you think about it, it does actually support my position of consciousness being individual. If consciousness could come out of dozens of previously dead, harvested body parts, the natural order of life and consciousness experiencing a birth until death cycle would be sorely interrupted. On top of that, even at the most basic level, all the body parts would have to either have the same blood type or be genetically compatible. I think science has proven that once a body (or body part) has entered into rigor mortis it cannot be reanimated and is not compatible with living tissue. Flipping a switch and running an electrical current through a bunch of body parts in the state of rigor mortis would not be the same as the electrical impulses the human body contains. For instance, electricity exists in North America and the United Kingdom but different electrical outlets are used. If you use the wrong one, your appliance gets fried.

Top
#16777 - 12/23/08 02:41 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You should not consider yourself a black sheep for believing or being willing to believe in ghosts or afterlife. I don't know what others think of it, but I do like stuff I disagree with, as long as it is sensible or argumented well enough to have an actual argument about it. Disagreeing is more fun than agreeing at times. Of course some are going to jump in and bite too because they think it is safe to bite and others are going to avoid giving their opinion because they fear being bitten. Some dare to say their opinion and get the load, others don't have the balls. You at least got the balls to say your thing and put it down in a respectable manner.

D.

Top
#16809 - 12/24/08 05:20 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Almost everything Diavolo said, and this:

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all, and in some strange way, I'd really like to agree with you. The Frankenstein thing, which was supposed to make you laugh, I hope, was also to demonstrate exactly what you just posted. I mean, the "concept" or whatever anyone would like to call it (semantics again), of "life" or "living" or "consciousness" or even "sentient consciousness" involves a great deal more than "electricity".

However, technologies being what they are, a tool, are not at all suited for explanations of this magnitude, at this time.

Nor, do I really think, they will ever be. The "science" is all moot, as even "near" death experiences are just that, and nothing more. Plus, there's not really any money in it...

To explain it all, one would really have to die...

And then they would have their very personal answer.

I don't mean "die" and be "revived", I mean really, actually die. (Not passing "Go", not collecting "$200)

And communication with the aforesaid, goes into the relm of a carnival...

or other things... which, being said, would be likened to the same level, and quite possibly... shoud be.

I don't know, and no one living does.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#16810 - 12/24/08 05:25 AM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Maybe... a Robocop??? Just hoping...
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#17025 - 12/27/08 01:05 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Diavolo]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
This is not by any means a scientific explanation of anything, but I thought it worth attempting to explain why Iíve chosen to take the standpoint that I have on believing in sentience after death (that some part of us survives the death of the physical shell). The prelude, so to speak, of what lead to my researching the afterlife. Humanity by nature is inquisitive, always wanting to know the ďwhyĒ when looking at anything in the world around us. Itís simply not enough to accept that itís there, we have to know how it works the way it does and what purpose it serves. We are concerned with the evolution of the self, not just how we develop physically, but also how we evolve to gain knowledge and become enlightened. There are some people out there who are sheep, essentially who are afraid and who allow themselves to sink into that fear (addiction, lack of responsibility, nihilistic thought processes) because they find it easier not to think about the greater picture. These people serve their purpose, existence needs duality and Iíd like to think that itís just the path those people need to take in order to gain a specific type of understanding. But at the core of all humanity is the quest for understanding, to become something more. Itís almost like we have an ingrained understanding somewhere underneath that this life was really just meant to be a temporary experience.

In essence, it seems reasonable to me that we were built to evolve. Some could argue that this is some sort of evolutionary mechanism, and to some degree I think the need to find some sort of spiritual connection is since cultures across the globe have done so since the beginning of time. I see it in a way that goes beyond that though. Finding connection to forces greater than ourselves - be it the worship of the sun and moon, superstitions around the elements, or more modern Judeo-Christian religions - is different than the personal quest to evolve and experience. One is social, the other is personal. To me the deeply personal quest for enlightenment, in whatever form it may take, is something we were born with and exists for a reason that goes beyond mere evolution. Hell, if it were purely a measure of evolution, animals would have it too since theyíve been evolving for as long as we have, in some cases longer. This is just my personal opinion. What I have experienced in my own body and mind has led me to reach this conclusion, and I am of course willing to accept that some people just find it easier to believe in nothing. It leaves them accountable for nothing, it allows for them to wallow in self-pity and not have to consider much beyond their temporary reality. Frankly it seems like the cowardís way out, walking blindly through life, not having to think outside the box.

Top
#17031 - 12/27/08 03:30 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Evolution is not an a to b process in which some animals are 'ahead' of others. Things that adapt best to their environment tend to survive, and that's about all there is to is.

Take the shark, or the alligator, as examples. They have existed pretty much as is for millions of years. Does this make them less evolved' than us? Well no.

It makes them ideally suited to their environment to the point that no mutation has managed to improve this condition in all that time.

Our relatively high intelligence is not a sign that we are 'more evolved' than anything else, it is just the direction we randomly ended up taking. Our intellect is the 'weapon' that has allowed us to continue to survive, much like the speed of a cheetah or the long neck of the giraffe. With each passing generation the longer necks of the giraffe allows greater and greater potential food sources, so too has our intellect allowed for greater and greater survivability.

There is nothing mystical about it.

And as for the 'cowards way out', well I guess that is a matter of perspective. To me it seems the the one who would rather manufacture fantasy to keep oneself comfortable is the one lacking the courage to face reality.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#17035 - 12/27/08 05:39 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: daevid777]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
Satanists do seem rather cynical when it comes to the subject of the afterlife, more so than any group I have previously encountered. Generally you have the two polar opposites of those who believe everything they are told, and those who disbelieve any evidence they are presented with and who are completely convinced that nothing can exists beyond the realm of parlor tricks. It would seem that Satanists tend to lean more toward the latter end. Are we watching too much of the news and absorbing too much of the negativity the people around us have to offer? Or are Satanists naturally inclined to be a distrusting bunch? Personally I canít help but feel that thereís more negativity in human civilization than there is positive. Call it survival, selfishness, an accident of nature, whatever you will...

I have always defined myself as an open-minded skeptic. With that being said, I donít think that every paranormal/supernatural encounter is something that has just been made up. There are SO many reports of ghosts, psychic accuracy, and things that go beyond the realm of mere coincidence that itís not logical to assume that itís all a hoax. It is logical to assume that this is not the one and only dimension which exists. And you are right, Daevid, there are many things we cannot possibly know for certain until weíre actually dead. Science has only come so far, technology can only tell us so much. Even if you look at the era weíre living in now, so much of it would have been deemed an absolute impossibility a hundred years ago. But then again, I bet people say that every hundred years...

Iíve asked this question before, but I think it got lost in conversation and was never really addressed. Has anyone seen the television show Psychic Children? I believe itís on A&E. Iíd like to know what peopleís thoughts are on that.

Top
#17036 - 12/27/08 05:59 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Succubus666]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Generally you have the two polar opposites of those who believe everything they are told, and those who disbelieve any evidence they are presented with and who are completely convinced that nothing can exists beyond the realm of parlor tricks.

And then there are those of us on the third side. Over here we see all kinds of possibility in the universe, but stay intellectually honest in that we are not convinced by shadows.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#17044 - 12/27/08 11:50 PM Re: Consciousness and Death [Re: Dan_Dread]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And then there are those of us on the third side. Over here we see all kinds of possibility in the universe, but stay intellectually honest in that we are not convinced by shadows.

When drawing a comparison in which oneís self can be found anywhere amidst the polar opposites of two extremes, there is more than just a third side. The obvious insinuation is that everyone falls somewhere in between. Itís nice that youíve decided to stake out a place for yourself but ultimately all youíve done is successfully repeated what I just said using less accurate terminology and inserted yourself into a conversation merely to reiterate a point thatís already been made. Itís more than a little pointless.

Top
Page 9 of 13 « First<7891011>Last »


Moderator:  TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.029 seconds of which 0.003 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.