Page all of 4 1234>
Topic Options
#1574 - 11/08/07 01:13 AM Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
Here's a question: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists?

I've found that even LaVeyan Satanists don't agree with each other on this matter.

I've always liked to back up my answers with quotes from the Satanic Bible -- because I'm geeky like that.

I should mention, though, that just because I'm quoting material from the book, that doesn't mean that I believe that's the only possible answer. The Satanic Bible is pretty straight forward, but there are some grey areas. Though, I would say, that if we want to define what LaVeyan Satanism is and is not, then using the book to back up an argument is the way to go.

Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? Obviously, without referring to the book, the answer is "yes and no". Some are, some aren't. Anyone would know that from chatting with those who call themselves "LaVeyan Satanists".

Though, a person could call themselves a loaf of bread -but that doesn't mean they're correct.

Moving on: Before answering this question, it'd be a good idea to define some terms.

Atheism, being defined as: the doctrine or belief that there is no God
God, being defined as: a supreme being, powerful force

Anton LaVey states, "it is a popular conception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'god' as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best" (Satanic Bible, pg 40).

With that in mind, one could argue that a Satanist may define "God" as something other than a "supreme being" or a "powerful force". A Satanist might say, "I don't believe in a supreme being or a powerful force" but I believe in myself -and that makes me god". -- but does that make him an Atheist? Some people think so.

I've never come across a Satanist who didn't consider himself to be "god" (by the way, that would make him the "supreme being" of his life.) It is my argument that since he believes in a god (of sorts), he cannot call himself an Atheist.

I suppose a Satanist could argue that "god" means "no god" -hence making them an Atheist. That's a bit of a stretch, I think.

Though, if you are of the opinion that "god" as defined by atheists means ONLY the "creator and ruler of the universe, etc etc", then I can understand how one would argue that a Satanist is an Atheist. Though, as far as I know, Atheism doesn't hold to only one concept of god.

Anton LaVey continues saying, "to the Satanist, 'god' -by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live"(Satanic Bible, pg 40).

According to the Satanic Bible, "god" can be summed up as:

- balancing factor in nature
- powerful force
- whichever definition suits you best (most Satanists call themselves 'god')

Satanists believe in "god" therefore they cannot be "atheists".

I'm willing to bet that the majority of Satanists who DO consider themselves to be atheists are under the impression that the term "god" only has one definition.

My opinion? They've not paid close enough attention to the Satanic Bible (or the dictionary) and do not truly understand their religion.

They don't have to 'go by the book', of course -- in which case, I believe they should not call themselves "LaVeyan Satanists" -but, perhaps, some other variety.

{I posted this on a 'pagan' forum, but don't expect a lot of replies --so I wanted to post this here too.)

So, c'mon -- rip me apart. ;\)
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#1576 - 11/08/07 01:31 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Cody Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 72
When you put things into boxes they come out of them in one way or another.
Top
#1577 - 11/08/07 01:38 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Cody]
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
I suppose they do....

Offhand, why is my post centered? I'm guessing it has something to do with the format of the site and nothing that I did within my post.... :|
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#1579 - 11/08/07 02:13 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Glanecia]
xear Administrator Offline
Admin
member


Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 417
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
yeah, things may seem weird for a bit while I'm updating the site. It wasn't your post.

- R

Top
#1582 - 11/08/07 03:36 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Dear Glanecia,

Try the term "Suitheism" on for size, and see if it fits. Of course it blows "Atheism" out of the water, but no "hardcore Atheist" wants to actually claim "Godhead" - I think it would be too much for them. So we have a - what? Paradox? You are the teacher, and I'm not sure my word is correct, but I think you get my meaning, nonetheless. It's really good to have you back, and I hope this isn't aligned to center, like the rest of the posts.......

Oh yeah, Hi, nice of you to drop in.

p.s. - it's centered.... damn.


Edited by daevid777 (11/08/07 03:37 AM)
Edit Reason: I have no idea... Xear??
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#1586 - 11/08/07 05:02 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: daevid777]
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
Suitheism -- Ooo, a new word! I had to google that one... a term coined by American occultists David Michael Cunningham and Traeonna A. R. Wagener, is the belief that oneself is a deity.

I think I'll start calling myself a "Suitheist". That way, I won't scare anyone and I'll come off looking really smart or something. :P

"Paradox" -- yeah, I can see how it could be a paradox if a thing both is and isn't something all at the same time -- but I hold to the argument that a LaVeyan Satanist is not a Atheist -- so, for me, there's no paradox. Everyone else is wrong. Ha! I wish it were that easy. Okay, okay. I can say with reasonable assurance that everyone else is wrong. Right. Why do I keep on smiling? \:D
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#1590 - 11/08/07 09:23 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Glanecia]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
Not to sound like an ass, but I feel compelled to respond here...

Suitheism is not a title or philosophy that one comes to lightly. It's very definition, even by those who use the title, is skewed from person to person. The "google" definition only scratches the surface of the possibilities within Suitheism. I've met a fair amount of people who strongly identify with Suitheism and its philosophies as they apply to them. It sounds like the same old tired argument over the "Satanist" title doesn't it? In all honesty, it is. There is no "unified" banner in any satanic expression, and that's why we love to call ourselves Satanists, right? However, I think you'll find that the deeper you pursue the varying definitions and interpretations of Suitheism, the more you'll realize that there is the possibility of a singularity existing within the Suitheistic experience.

Esoterically yours,
Octavius
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Top
#1605 - 11/08/07 08:16 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Octavius]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I meant that in a "cracker-jack", run o' the mill, standard generic "definition" of the word - as the concept is abused by "Moderns"... nothing so dignified as what you suggest.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#1619 - 11/09/07 03:13 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: daevid777]
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
I suppose it would be better to sound like an ass, than to look like one.

I have no plans to pursue the title "Suitheist". Did my sarcasm not shine through? Ah, rats.

It does sound interesting enough to at least inform myself, so thanks for the introduction. Have a nice day.



Edited by Glanecia (11/09/07 03:30 AM)
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#1622 - 11/09/07 03:32 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Glanecia]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Actually, I meant that response for dear Mr. Octavius. But, it is just as well. Perhaps Suiapotheosis would work? Not so catchy, and I think a horrible mingling of ancient languages. Sounds cool though, sort of. Maybe not. \:\(
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#1654 - 11/10/07 01:35 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: daevid777]
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
My response was to Octavious too -- though, I was wondering who he was responding to ... lmao .. what fun. Perhaps we should address the person to whom we're speaking :P

Woops.

(To daevid777)


Edited by Glanecia (11/10/07 01:35 AM)
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#1668 - 11/10/07 12:42 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Are LaVeyan Satanists atheists?
The quick answer is 'Yes and no'!

It all comes down to semantics and how the conception of God is defined.
If one's only acceptable definition of God is something like the Judeo-Christian God, then LaVeyan Satanists are atheists by your definition.

However, if the definition of God is widened to include something like the Chinese Tao, or The Force from Star Wars, then it is not only correct to say that LaVeyan Satanists do believe in such a 'God' (only 'God' without any Judeo-Christian connotations) - they believe that they have the power to manipulate this cosmic force through the practice of magic.

This latter belief is, however, open to dispute.
Some modern Satanists reject the belief in literal magic, retaining the notion of 'God' as a belief in a kind of supernatural force which many atheists would nevertheless still reject.

Some modern Satanists go further, however, and take this in a purely symbolic or metaphorical sense - seeing the Force or Tao-like 'God' as simply a metaphor for the natural balance and forces of the universe, or even the natural universe itself (which is close to my personal view).

This leads to an acceptance of human nature as it is, unburdened by unreasonable moral demands which see human nature as 'sinful' and as something to be mortified.
So the pursuit of pleasure, a controlled selfishness and an acceptance of one's desire for power and personal fulfilment as well as well-being are embraced in a rational acceptance of life, human nature and reality.


It must be noted, though, that orthodox LaVeyans (note the irony here - LaVeyanism has become an orthodoxy, a Christian thing!) stick to the word of The Satanic Bible, which leads to a literal belief in a supernatural Force (kind of like a deity) as well as a belief in magic and occultism.
Something many atheists would find unacceptable.

Top
#1671 - 11/10/07 02:07 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: Meq]
Glanecia Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 17
Paula, I liked your explanation. Yay for people who can express their thoughts coherently! *claps hands*

Funnily enough, I was explaining the same theory about magic, on another forum. Though, I have met some CoS members who don't believe that magic/ritual actually works & have no literal belief in a supernatural force.

Here's what I said, elsewhere. I'm going to copy and paste, cause I'm lazy. :P I look forward to reading any thoughts on what's written below...

A term that will pop up all the time in regards to Satanic ritual is "psychodrama". That's how Anton LaVey explained ritual - that it's all for show, a way to build up emotion, or to psych you out, so that your desire -or whatever the purpose of the ritual is- can be attained.

The candles, the bell, the altar, the hailing of Satan, Leviathan, Lucifer and Belial -or whichever names are most appropriate create the drama. Without the drama, the idea is that you wouldn't have strong enough emotion to focus your will on what you want.

To answer your question, yes, when Satan is called upon, a Satanist knows he's not a literal being -that Satan represents ideals (or if you want to get specific, the Nine Satanic Statements explain exactly what Satan represents). Though, the reason to call upon any name at all, during ritual, is a bit more complex....

The purpose of calling upon Satan is to create that psychodrama. He doesn't literally appear in any way, shape or form. Anything that does appear comes from the caller - the creator of the myth - the Satanist. It's an "it's all in your mind" type of thing; except that real results can come from "what's only in your mind."

That's the answer you'll find in the Satanic Rituals, by Anton LaVey, starting on page 31, where he writes about psychodramas.

How matters stand, outside of the book, are a bit different. Many LaVeyan Satanists don't utilize ritual anymore -or never at all. Peter Gilmore -the current High Priest of the Church of Satan has said that they've outgrown the need for ritual, almost as if it were beneath them. I'm quoting from memory, so it's a bit unfair to say all this without quoting from a source; and I can't find a source at the moment. Though, that's what I remember hearing/reading....

Anyways, I do know that many LaVeyan Satanists do not believe that magic (it's spelled without a "k" in this religion) actually works. They believe that ritual only exists for those with a psychological need to express their emotions in a manner that only a ritual could provide.

Others (myself included) disagree. We acknowledge that real results can can from exercising your will through ritual. It's a tool - one that works.

My guess is that maybe 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of LaVeyan Satanists actually utilize ritual.



Edited by Glanecia (11/10/07 02:09 PM)
_________________________
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Top
#2879 - 12/23/07 07:29 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
Funny, this has been on my mind for a couple of days now. In Peter Gilmore's new intro to The Satanic Bible, he states that a Satanist is essenially atheistic. However, I think one needs to determine what atheistic means. To me, it means not "believing" in some pie in the sky Father figure that sits up there keeping score of everything I do, under threat of damnation if I get out of line.

I don't "believe" anything. It has been said that belief is the barrier to knowledge. I come to my own conclusions through investigation and personal experience. Then it is not belief...it is knowledge gained through scientific method.

According to one source, the "inner circle" of Lavey's church perceived Satan as an actual entity. This was not made general knowledge to the entire membership. So maybe an Atheist stance is a starting point for the Satanist in order for them to arrive at their own viewpoint resultant of their efforts in magical practice and study i.e. true metaphysical experience. Still, an acknowlegement of "the balancing force in nature", what I call a creative/destructive force does not constitute a god I grovel to. It is a force at my disposal that I can manipulate to my benefit.

Top
#2887 - 12/24/07 03:08 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Soluna666]
hellbent666
Unregistered



People that say Anton LaVey was this or that or that he actually believed in a devil is just people trying to slander his name even further. Michael Aquinos actually believed that he was in direct contact with Set and thus created The Temple of Set in a pseudo Satanic fashion. A lot of the principals are the same but the core belief structure is different.

So I guess you could say that some of the members of LaVey's inner circle were not atheists at all. Once the whole concept of deities come up in religion you cease to be an Atheist. Michael Aquinos took with him quite a few members of the original Church of Satan. From what I read about the ToS it's not much different except it is easier to advance in rank through their heirarchy and their founder claims to have divine interactions. But maybe this is the CoS trying to slander Aquinos? I have no idea what's really going on.

LaVeyan Satanist are basically Epicurean Atheists at core. We believe that Satan is just a representation for mans carnal side and a mysterious dark force in nature amongst many other things. We claim no interactions with unseen entities or deities as those are tools of christianity to scare followers. We are our own Gods!

Top
#2900 - 12/24/07 02:44 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
What's an Epicurian Atheist?
Top
#2904 - 12/24/07 03:48 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Soluna666]
hellbent666
Unregistered



ep·i·cu·re·an
–adjective
1. fond of or adapted to luxury or indulgence in sensual pleasures; having luxurious tastes or habits, esp. in eating and drinking.
2. fit for an epicure: epicurean delicacies.
3. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Epicurus or Epicureanism.
–noun 4. an epicure.
5. a disciple of Epicurus.

This is just what Dictioanry.com says it is. So I'm gathering from the definition that it's basically meaning indulgent with fine tastes. Also dedicating ones life to the pursuit of luxury and pleasure.

Any interview with HP Peter H. Gilmore will have this reference in it to Epicureanism. This is how he describes "us" (LaVeyan Satanists).

Top
#2906 - 12/24/07 04:46 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
http://www.churchoftheepical.org

My friend who runs that site would find it amusing that Peter describes Satanist as such.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#2907 - 12/24/07 04:51 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
In reply to the title of your post I must say no as through my experiences of LaVeyan Satanism nothing appears to be struck out as impossible, and even if it isn't the "god" of the bible that there is a possibility accepted of it dosen't matter because it depends on the Satanist's individual and personal view. LaVeyan Satanism is more of an Agnostic viewpoint although it does definately seem to lean towards no god although never sets this in stone. Put straight, LaVeyan Satanism in my view says that whether there is a "god" or not is irrelevant and what is here and now is what matters, and in accordance with here and now, the Satanist is his/her own master and controls himself/herself, no deity holds an important position, the rituals and all the symolism are just metaphors designed to invoke feeling and emotion for the purpose of the Satanist.
Top
#2912 - 12/24/07 08:26 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the def. Hellbent666.
Top
#2916 - 12/25/07 03:45 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Then, is it a "religion", really?
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2917 - 12/25/07 04:00 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: daevid777]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
daevid77 id say it was more a philosophy than a religion, it just uses metaphors and imagery a lot which seems to confuse the weak minded and the stupid.
Top
#2918 - 12/25/07 04:27 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: JustExtreme]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Hello JustExtreme,

You missed a "7", but I'll forgive you, this time.

It seems you know something, so do tell... is this just "Atheism" with a kick? Then why, oh why, choose Satan, as a focal point in this Atheism?
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#2919 - 12/25/07 04:49 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: daevid777]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
Apologies lol im currently celebrating xmas with my family and have had quite a bit of alcohol \:D

There are a few reasons why satan is the focal point:

Satan used to be a pretty damn shocking word/image/thing/symbol when the Modern sort of Satanism first revealed itself so I'd say one of the reasons is probably just shock tactics to keep away the weak minded.

Dark imagery and symbolism, including that of Satan and all the other infernal names, just because of its common "taboo" and "forbidden" position in society seems to be much more effective in conjouring up emotion and delivering ones own will than imagery of a "god" greater than oneself. Satan is used to represent the core values of humanity that are portrayed as sin in most other religions and the value and preservation of the self.

Basically any form of imagery or symbolism can be used by a Satanist, they take the "rituals" and "processes" of other religions or belief systems and forge them into a tool that can be used for their own benefit, its all about individual preference as different imagery invokes emotion in different ways in different people.

As for the rituals in Satanism, the Satanist never actually believes that he is invoking the actual Satan and always has in his/her mind that all he/she is doing is using material and imagery to stimulate his/her own emotions in order to, in one way or another, carry out their true will as obviously emotions have an effect on our subconsious.

Well, I probably haven't completely answered your question and have probably veered off in several directions but I hope it helps and also, feel free to ask me anything else that comes to mind.

Hail Satan = Hail Thyself


Edited by JustExtreme (12/25/07 04:50 AM)

Top
#2932 - 12/26/07 02:33 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Euronymous Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 46
Loc: san diego, ca
You know, I remember chatting extensively with Ballbreaker on this issue. We both came to the conclusion that describing a "LaVeyan" Satanist as an Atheist is really not accurate. In the eyes of Christians, no doubt, *We* are Atheists, because *We* refuse to accept the Judeo-Christian version of God. However, *We* also recognize the fact that there is a Cosmic force of nature that acts as an equalizer within the Ifinite Universe. However this force does not intervene in the everyday lives of Man. That is how I see it. Furthermore, Satan to me is strictly symbolic of the Nine Satanic Statements and the Hidden Forces of the mind and life in general, and it is this Hidden Force of Nature that when tapped into can be utilized for personal benefit. I also know that there is a direct link between this Force and our subconscious mind. Above all, I firmly believe that my mind Itself will always be God. Anyways, Ballbreaker and I came to concur that the only things seperating an Atheist from a Satanist were Ritual, Symbolism, and Dogma.

Edited by Euronymous (12/26/07 02:38 PM)
_________________________
" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

Top
#2943 - 12/26/07 11:14 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Raven Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
God is just a word dervied from language built amongst words for better communication and comphresive undestanding amongst humanity, we give so many titles nowadays its a wonder most of us are critics of this phenomeneon. God, a supreme being or force, it is interesting that if we stripped the titled of god and question the existence of a force, being would mean a living thing and the highest level of life would be earth which leads to right hand paths including paganism/etc. When in general we should understand if there is a force the reason why you and me still breath, why for countless centuries humanity has gone through a endless search to find out the truth and in the end the only find shortcomings and take the rest for granite like doing a world tour and only visiting one country and denying the rest of the world as whole other than were they've been (if you can understand this). I believe we should break down and factor what others including ourselves believe and find common denominators and perhaps then we can find the truth but this will never happen b/c human arrogance and pride has blinded most of humanity and peace will never be adjurned and it is our curse to bear this era of living.
Top
#2981 - 12/28/07 04:23 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Hmmm..... I love this topic! I must say I really don't know where the CoS are coming from sometimes? Have your cake and eat it to I think!
The CoS are not unlike any other religious institution, with its orthodoxy and stances.
However, as far as LaVey is concerned I think he outlined concepts in the S.B. and not orthodoxies.
To me Satanism is a variety of things.
1. the disbelief in the god of mainstream religion.
2. the recognition that man is in fact just another animal.
3. the awareness that there are forces within nature that can be harnessed by ritual, and other methods of manipulating the physical realm.
Magic and ritual allow internal and external forces to connect.
To me there is no separation between external and internal dark forces. I am a product of the universe and the universe is a product of me.

Top
#3051 - 01/01/08 12:44 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Ordellani Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
What's "LaVeyan Satanism"? Never heard of this before.

Huddle with the sheep, kiddo.
_________________________
Founder - Ordellani Studios

Top
#3052 - 01/01/08 01:38 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Ordellani]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
how orgiginal a quote their mathew where have i heard that befor and befor and befor think of a new fucking catch phrase at least, ahh scicne you have shown your face i saw the site looks like a blog to me not the company you claimed it to be child where is this?

(Nice attempt to besmirch my name and the companies. Perhaps you could send that to our executive Head Programmers office in London, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

As far as I can see from your site, you have pseudo-artistic "templates" that look like they've been designed by a minor. Your art is ridiculous, and your petty character-attacks will and have accomplished you nothing.

I'm currently switching the servers for our site, and putting the portfolio up. I assure you, once you see the designs we've done, and who for, you'll fade back into obscurity once again.

Try again. )

still wating for your art and the so called company work so i can fade back into obscurty mr ceo, ah yes and i attacked your chachter beacuse you are a fraud when you need to lie aobut your achomplishments this tells me you are unhappy about your life and where you are ,and this to me is far from satanic i on the other hand am who i claim to be, so i leave you with this thought child, show me the work you claim mr ceo and stop using the same fucking lines besmirching, fuck when i was looking up your so called comapny on google all i had to do follow the besmirching comment and that exact phrase huddle with the sheep and no sign of your company other then at self help do it for free websites where your spewing the same banter that you have exebited here.memorize a few big words their child?


if any other 600 club memeber want a good laugh look up ordellani also self professed warlock of the Church of Satan or satanslitteone on myspace in google the amount of besmirching and huddle with the sheep is quite humours never mind that fact that you are ceo of fuck all.need a title mutch?

programers in london hA!!fucking poser the worst sort of sheep.
and you have the motherfucking nerve to try to insult my art and sucess when you have nothing your self and need to lie aobut it fuck you.
_________________________
http://www.sintheticgraphics.com

Top
#3092 - 01/02/08 03:19 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Ordellani]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Ordellani
What's "LaVeyan Satanism"? Never heard of this before.

Huddle with the sheep, kiddo.



From what I've gathered it is one who attempts to live according to the exact precepts laid out in the Satanic Bible, ie. the gospel according to Anton.

Top
#3095 - 01/02/08 04:12 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Soluna666]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
I like to think that LaVeyan Satanists generally investigate the subjects covered in the Satanic Bible more deeply and also look at where certain parts of the book originally came from, its really just what you want it to be.
Top
#3121 - 01/03/08 02:24 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: JustExtreme]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
My sentiments exactly, Just Extreme. I suspect LaVey enjoyed some sadistic indulgence when he encountered any idiot professing to be self-reliant and liberated while attempting to slavishly follow everything he wrote.
Top
#3122 - 01/03/08 03:18 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Soluna666]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
Indeed, idiot "satanists" follow him as if he was some kind of jesus figure or religious leader but all he done was take what made sense to him, compile it, added some of his own wit and presented it in an easily accessible form, he did not intend it to be followed word for word. Its all about having your own individual style of living and being, LaVey definately did this.

Edited by JustExtreme (01/03/08 03:19 PM)

Top
#3123 - 01/03/08 05:19 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: JustExtreme]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
Some 35 years later, the Church is still using Coop illustrations and dusty photos of festooned members mocking the Christian Church as propaganda. There have been countless criticisms of the CoS written over the years; mostly by outraged fundamentalist Christians labeling Satanists as baby killing serial rapists and murderers. Those claims have all been debunked by Government investigations of the 1980’s and 90’s. So what has the CoS been up to since its inception and since Anton’s death? A whole lot of nothing, unless you count the repeated touting of Anton and his writings.

Are we, as intelligent people, supposed to take the writings of LaVey as our Gospel? By Anton’s definition, we should certainly not. We should all strive to take the philosophies he borrowed and use them as the first stepping stones towards a higher understanding of our unique visions of society, philosophy, morality, and ourselves. While Anton was many things in his life, he was first and foremost an eccentric carnival barker…the world was his carnival and he presented it in a very different light than most of “the herd” perceived it.

Anton’s death brought a schism to his Church, and it now lies in the hands of sycophants and charlatans bent on the continued perception of heretical Christianity. It’s apparent in the rituals of the Church, by the Satanic “priests” in their mocking attire, and their paradoxical rhetoric. Why isn’t the CoS continuing to build on Anton’s vision? Where are the books that should be coming from the Church helping to foster thought and fight the stagnancy it now rests in? Gilmore’s “Satanic Scriptures” are a weak collection of essays and articles collected from various Church newsletters. The Church’s publishing house, Purging Talon, is little more than a (albeit effective) means to tithe even more money out of church members with substandard “literature.”

As I am not, nor have ever been, a member of the CoS, I certainly don’t have the answers to the above questions. Perhaps there is much more going on behind their two hundred dollar-veil of secrecy and silence. Perhaps I am not qualified to even ask these questions and criticize. However, it seems to me that Anton did not fear the public like his Church now does…answers may only come with approved membership and appropriate financial tithing.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Top
#3136 - 01/04/08 07:01 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Octavius]
JustExtreme Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 7
I completely agree Octavius, the Church of Satan seems to me to have become more of a novelty than a meaningful and serious organisation as it was with LaVey leading it. LaVeys work is a good starting point or stepping stone but one must investigate the principals within it further in order to gain a real perspective on oneself and what LaVey was actually trying to say and do.

Edited by JustExtreme (01/04/08 07:02 AM)

Top
#3140 - 01/04/08 04:31 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: JustExtreme]
Soluna666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Canada
Indeed, for such a small book, I continue to glean new info and insight from TSB as my perspective evolves. After all the years since I first read it, I still come across stuff and think, "I didn't notice that before."

Given Anton's history as a carny, I feel he had a strong sense of irony when it came to observing humans fall into the same traps time and time again. Judging by what the Temple of Set has to say, some of the Adepts began to feel somewhat limited by the parameters within TSB philosophy. I agree. It can become a very closed system if one is too dogmatic about it.

I suspect LaVey was well aware of this, that a true independent thinker would eventually realize they have just trapped themselves in another philosophical box, and only then would they begin to develop their own ideas and apply them in real life. But therein lies evolution.

Top
#3165 - 01/06/08 03:02 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Soluna666]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
AS weird as you proclaimed it, and as much as I'd love to argue... I am forced to not disagree with you.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

Top
#3167 - 01/06/08 04:51 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: daevid777]
xear Administrator Offline
Admin
member


Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 417
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Individualism, unrepentant pursuit of wisdom, and the belief in this "human potential movement" is the byproduct of great minds that we simply cannot afford to ignore.

It's not the worship of a man that we need focus on, as much as it is the inspiration and legacy that they leave behind.

... Inspire and be inspired, I say.

- R

Top
#3169 - 01/06/08 09:11 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Octavius]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Are we, as intelligent people, supposed to take the writings of LaVey as our Gospel? By Anton’s definition, we should certainly not.


Absolutely!

Reflecting on this little gem from TSB:

"A black mass, today, would consist of the blaspheming of such "sacred" topics as Eastern mysticism, psychiatry, the psychedelic movement, ultra-liberalism, etc. Patriotism would be
championed, drugs and their gurus would be defiled, acultural militants would be deified, and the decadence of ecclesiastical theologies might even be given a Satanic boost."

The true practitioner must seek the dichotomies of their own times.

In many was the CoS looks like a bunch of D&D nerds arguing about what the rules say. If you engage in this sort of thing you are truly missing the point. A vital existence is not found a book but in the practical application of the principle.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#3177 - 01/06/08 06:05 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Fist]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
when you need to change you beliefs or the way you live for a religion or to live under the rules of another man how are you any better then any religious nut.satanists are born and not made if one has not been living this way all your life(live for indulgence,strength,power,free thought, even befor you read the TSB perhaps you are on the wrong path,in my opion the TSB was meant to try to wake up a few sheep as thats more money for his church and that is how it is written as if the reader has never thought this way befor in their lives,thouse of us that already live our lives with satanic ideals dont need any rules other then our own.was a good book and i laughed quite bit reading it including the end with the enochian keys lol. to summerize: to live under another book or man you are still a sheep trying to be a wolf and failing. live for yourself.
_________________________
http://www.sintheticgraphics.com

Top
#5914 - 03/19/08 09:45 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
DeathIsWicked Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Peyton, Colorado
I don't understand LaVeyan Satanists. It's a little confusing to me...ok alot of confusing.
_________________________
The Devil's Advocate.
Joy of Satan Minitries.

Top
#5980 - 03/20/08 06:08 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: DeathIsWicked]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Satanism is a philosophy. Atheism is non-religion. They are not mutually exclusive or even related technically.

Most Satanists I have spoken to are Atheist because most satanists are intelligent and see religion for the pile of lies that it is. However there is no reason why a satanist cannot beleive in the existance of a God, it's just unlikely.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

Top
#5993 - 03/20/08 11:41 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thought [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Hello TC, let us have at this again properly shall we?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Satanism is a philosophy. Atheism is non-religion. They are not mutually exclusive or even related technically.

I myself did not like the fracturing of Satanism due to what I considered typical religious bullshit… My dislike was mainly for those that felt the need to further fracture this belief with the use of a different prefix… The most common words used to prefix the word Satanism are Traditional/ Theistic and LaVayan/ Atheistic… Just because things are not related in ways that you agree with does not change anything…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Most Satanists I have spoken to are atheist because most satanists are intelligent and see religion for the pile of lies that it is.

What? I thought you just said they were in no way related? I have met spoken with and talked with many traditionalists on the old forum… At the core they believe the same as we do… Just perhaps they need more dogma in their lives just as some need ritual and some do not…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
However there is no reason why a satanist cannot beleive in the existance of a God, it's just unlikely.

You do also have some clue as to what “Joy of Satan Minitries” stands for in DeathIsWicked’s signature? The one you are speaking to don’t you?

I think a simple way to put it would be Satanism mixed with Egyptian gods, some ufo’s thrown in for good measure, private conversation with father Satan, all mixed up with a big spoon of white power, white power, white power… But do your own research draw your own conclusions…

Glanecia’s original debate on wordplay and concrete definitions still holds little interest to me…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#6203 - 03/22/08 02:55 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: TornadoCreator]
NYCLeather Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/22/08
Posts: 2
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Most Satanists I have spoken to are atheist because most satanists are intelligent and see religion for the pile of lies that it is.


Intelligent...or maybe a more keenly attuned BS detector. ;\)

I think all religions are really cults because the end game is some kind of self sacrifice. People get themselves into these endless cycles of unachievable system of ethics, unearned guilt, and limited or temporary atonement. It is a pile of lies, but they are in so far deep, they have no perspective.


Edited by NYCLeather (03/22/08 02:57 PM)
Edit Reason: add sentence

Top
#6256 - 03/23/08 03:13 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Engel08 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40
Loc: California
I think the definition of a satanist has sort of become incredibly complicated over time. As different individuals branch out ect.
I know I was a laveyan for a while then touched on some Crowlian stuff the From there Veered out to just plain being a skeptic to being somewhat of a agnostic. But still a little skeptical. To kind of coming back to the whole paganism with some intrest in Satanism.
So I suppose that LeVeyan's could be atheists. But anyone who claims to be a god, definitely would never stray far from the definition of a god.(which is the problem with doctrine and Dogma)

Godless in external sense yes. But not entirely without belief in a central force.

But I find it amusing how they can still mock or judge harshly the "self proclaimed god" satanists and call them crazy.

Not that I disagree in the view on jos that this group and others have.
_________________________
"Drink to me"

Top
#6765 - 03/30/08 06:16 PM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: ]
Lusafyr Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 7
I think, respectfully, that you are making this much harder than it needs to be. Satanists(by which I refer to "LaVeyan" Satanists as that is my definition of such) are people who loath the idea of taking a title in the first place. Once they read the Satanic Bible and see themselves reflected on those pages, they accept the title of Satanist. It is really that simple. Satanism is a broad term that is meant as a frame for the picture that is you. It is a personal definition of who and what you are. It is the only title needed. There are multiple beliefs and philosophies that share common ground with Satanism but they are not Satanism.

On another note, concerning Peter Gilmore's introduction to the Satanic Bible, Atheism is in fact one of the other ideas that shares common ground. It is not just a denial of any outside force controlling the universe, but more importantly, it is a "faith" that embraces science and reason as "god". That is a Satanic concept but still, Atheism is not Satanism.

So many people try to determine what Satanism is through applying other titles to an already named philosophy. Satanism is unique and different from all these other ideas even though it may share similarities. If you spend all this time searching for other titles for yourself then you are not being very Satanic, are you?

Hail Satan!
_________________________
"Say unto thine own heart, "I am mine own redeemer.""
-Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Top
#86625 - 04/19/14 11:35 AM Re: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? - My Thoughts [Re: Glanecia]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
If this conflicting scenario is supposed to be an adequate description of His Satanic Majesty then count me out. Whether you are a theist who gets off on religious transcendence or an Atheist who gets off on rationality, it’s ok, He can get you off both ways…, ad nauseam hehehe…
Top
Page all of 4 1234>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.059 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 60 queries. Zlib compression disabled.