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#16152 - 12/13/08 11:05 PM "The Diabolicon"
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I was at the book store a few weeks ago, browsing through the religion section when I came across the book "Ketab-e-Siyah" by Tsirk Susej.

Since I had read and enjoyed "The Demonic Bible" by Susej, I thought I'd give this one a read.

I found the book rather entertaining to some extent, being as it is a collection of texts influenced by Satan, including the Al-Jilwah, Meshaf I Resh, Livri Luciferius, and so on. The one text that really caught my attention was The Diabolicon, a short book said to have been influenced by Satan about the creation of the universe. To my surprise, it was a very interesting read and it brought up a few questions...

The main idea behind it is that the Christian God and Satan were the result of evolution and were early beings in the universe that created life on Earth, rather than a single god that created everything. The main question I have is might this be a possibilty? Could it have been possible that the earliest signs of life eventually snowballed into life as we know it today? Would this fall under evlolution? That the "angels" mentioned in the bible or gods were an earlier race, enslaved by order of one of their own kind until the one called Lucifer rebelled with those that were loyal to him?

Sure the stories of God and Satan may simply just be stories and nothing more, but the main idea behind it I found was simply evolution, a theory that is believed by many people. Could then the stories of past civilizations have some truth to them? Or possibly even the book of Genesis?

I am not saying I believe these things to be true, but I am considering the possibility.

So my question is, what does everybody think about this? And if you have read the Diabolicon, what is your take on it?
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16156 - 12/14/08 05:22 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
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This would require to think of history as cyclical. Civilizations rising from dust, getting to their max and degenerating into nothing again. In some way it can be seen as valid but not really at a scientific level. It can be debated that there have been other civilizations but what we find of them doesn't show them as more advanced in the context of how we view advanced nowadays. No matter how many civilizations of the past you'd study or look into, you'd only see a progress up to where we stand now. A darwinist selection pushing things forward and forward (not to be regarded as into the right direction, selection is blind) up to where we are now. So no, I don't think there have been angels and devils, most of those concepts are invented and explored at the heights of our religious stupidity.
And although genesis borrowed its content from other lore, I do see it as manner (form) of how to explain things in their crude understanding. It can be argued there have been some facts true to the stories, like might have been with the flood but I don't think much of the metaphysical stuff is valid.

The idea that god and satan created life is just confusing up the question a bit more. We don't really know what created life to begin with. We do know what lifeforms were probably earliest and how they evolved into what is seen now but inserting the idea of two other advanced lifeforms that created all those simple lifeforms is ridiculous. We'd have to go and explain how they came into existance and evolved into what they are now. Has there been a Deus Erectus that evolved into a Deus Sapiens? See, rather silly to even consider.

I didn't read the book, so only commenting on what you present.

D.

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#16157 - 12/14/08 05:49 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
I think I have read the book you're speaking of except what I read was written by Michael Aquino. Same book name and same concept tho. I found a pdf file so here is the link, its a quick read.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/blacklotusmonastery/texts/diabolicon.pdf

In the idea that there is a God and Satan this is like the missing book from the bible.

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#16158 - 12/14/08 05:58 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Butterz]
Diavolo Offline
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I did an online search yeah and discovered a text written by Aquino. With all respect for what the guy did but the intention of the text puzzles me. To a degree I see it as something metaphorical, like the old forms but due to its vaguesness, it can be anything the reader wants. It's not my kind of form although others might prefer it. I gave up after page 9 or so without it giving me anything new or mindblowing to continue upon.

If there is anything, it should not be taken literal imo. I don't think Aquino solved the puzzle of existance or knows what happened before point x.

D.

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#16173 - 12/14/08 01:05 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
You have to also take into consideration that this text at least doesn't contradict what we already know about the universe. Sure it is close to impossible for one, two, or any amount of advanced beings so far back in time to have created life as we know it today, but as you stated if you look at it in a metaphorical sense, it can be taken as symbology for evolution as I stated in my original post. Perhaps by referring to early life as "gods", it might be in a different sense than most would think. Instead of thinking of the usual views of what a god is, you can consider the fact that basic life, having evolved into what we see today, could be seen as our "creator" or creators. Or quite possibly many aeons after the first signs of life, a race of intelligent beings could have spawned the human race in some way or another, possibly by reproducing with another similar race.

It is easy to be sceptical, but in my opinion this theory is open for discussion and should be further researched, from a scientific perspective of course. Maybe there is an explanation but we are just not advanced enough yet to figure it out.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16174 - 12/14/08 01:21 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
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We aren't talking about an age-old text here, digged up at the ruins of Yazzi-Wallabi. This is a document written by Aquino during his time with the CoS. He'll probably know the reason why it was written but of the many things Aquino might be, evolutionary scientist or historian isn't one of them. Or I might be seriously mistaken.

So what value does the document have at that level? Basically none but what the reader grants it. In my opinion it probably served no other purpose as giving dept to Modern Satanism, a bit like the dark doctrines.

All debate about its value as truth in a historical or scientific perspective might be nice and dandy for some but is below my intellectual standards, so I won't even open myself up for that option. It's not because some text contains Satan that all satanists need to take it as serious material.

But don't let that hinder others from going wild on it. I won't interfere.

Edit: I looked up his own writing about it:

 Quote:
When leaving for South Vietnam in June 1969 I had taken with me a copy of John Milton’s epic Paradise Lost, which I considered then, as now, one of the most exalted statements of Satanism ever written. Satan is its true hero; its Christian moralisms are so pale and watery in comparison that I am surprised it and its author were not summarily burned upon its appearance in Cromwellian England. That it not only survived Puritan censorship but was actually lauded as a compliment to Christianity is yet another of those titanic ironies which have accompanied the Prince of Darkness on his tortuous journey across the eras of human civilization.As much as I admired Paradise Lost, I was annoyed at its ever-present, if pro forma bias. The die was loaded against Satan; he might put up a good fight, but in the end he was doomed to defeat. It was not so much that I wanted to see him triumph. Rather I felt that his power and position were equal to God’s if not more potent, and I wanted to see a contest that would more accurately represent the struggle between the Powers of Darkness and those of Light.In early 1970 I took pen in hand and, during the moments when I was not occupied with military responsibilities [at the time I was based in the village of Lai Khe, directing PSYOP teams for the 1st Infantry Division], I began to write a restatement of certain themes from Paradise Lost. It was hardly an “ivory tower” meditation. I wrote in old, bombed-out buildings dating from the French occupation, in helicopters, in tents, and in the midst of underbrush in the “Iron Triangle” and “Trapezoid” (!) fire zones. Part of the text of the “Statement of Beelzebub” had to be reconstructed from notes at one point when an incoming rocket blew a packet of papers [and the storage room holding them] to atoms. Often, as I had remarked to Ferro, I would be interrupted from my musings by the sudden necessity to dive for a sandbagged bomb shelter.Slowly but inevitably, however, the manuscript crept towards completion. I say “inevitably” because I began to develop a most peculiar feeling about it. As I wrote the sequential passages, I seemed to sense, rather than determine what they should say. And if I penned words or phrases that “didn’t fit”, I would experience continual irritation and impatience until I had replaced them with the “correct” combination. It was as though the text had a life of its own; and even when it was done, I found myself unable to type it as I had originally intended to do. Instead I took another month to copy it into a finished book of two volumes in an odd calligraphic script of mine that, once more, “imposed itself” on the project. By about the middle of March it was done, and I sent it off to Anton LaVey in San Francisco. Its title was The Diabolicon, and a transcript is enclosed as Appendix #15.


You can find the rest in his 'Church of Satan' document.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/14/08 01:32 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#16175 - 12/14/08 02:10 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
selfish666 Offline
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 7
Loc: missouri
To think of god or satan to have createed the universe is to give deification to these names.I admit that there is alot that we don't know out there but one thing I do know is Anton LaVey said that the god we save may be ourselves and that I do beleive. I am my own God and I will save myself by my own 2 hands ,my mind,intellect. I am my own redeemer. There is alot more in life to worry about than where I came from or how I got here. I live on this plane so that is what I focus on what is to my earthly good,how to better myself while here,cause this is heaven and hell there is no heaven above or a hell where sinners roast,now is our time,now is our hour,belife in ones self is true power.
Read the Satanic Bible and your questions will be answered.
HAIL SATAN!!!

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#16177 - 12/14/08 03:10 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: selfish666]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
The Satanic Bible is nothing but a book of reference to what most modern Satanists believe to be the base of their "beliefs", even though most of the material in the Satanic Bible was influenced by past philosophers that LeVay did not credit.

The only questions it will answer are questions about LeVayan Satanism...And do you really think Diavolo never read TSB?

Btw, your post was a nice summery of the Satanic Bible in itself. It would probably be easier for someone to read your post than the Satanic Bible. Plus the only person your ripping off is LeVay.
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#16179 - 12/14/08 06:22 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hello Mike.

You seem enthusiastic about Satanism, and you also are fairly well written for one so young. Bonus points.

First off, the mans name was LaVey, not LeVay. This might seem trivial but it really isn't. Respect where it is due.

Secondly, all philosophies are influenced by other philosophies. Nowhere does LaVey claim to be creating something new, rather he admits to giving a name to something old, yet unnamed. In the original print of TSB, Anton Dedicates the book to one Ragnar Redbeard. Perhaps you have heard of him?

Third, you have a lot to learn yet. Satanism can not be summed up in a paragraph. Walk the path, and keep walking. If you think you have reached the destination you have strayed from it.
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#16180 - 12/14/08 06:31 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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As for the subject at hand, studying the bible from a historical perspective pretty much eliminates any credibility it might have beyond grains of historical truth in a dune of bullshit.

There really is no biblical Satan as he is portrayed by modern christians. That guy was invented in the 1600s by authors like Milton and Dante, and has no real biblical justification that does not require a liberal dose of eisegesis to get off the ground. The idea that this character might have had something to do with our real world history is a few steps beyond ridiculous.
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#16189 - 12/14/08 09:47 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Wasn't too hot about the Demonic Bible, but I looked up the Ketab-E-Siyah anyways. In all honesty I think it's a great idea, and I myself had actually been trying to compile an "eclectic Satanic Bible" like that. (nearly 500 pages for under 30 dollars... I'm actually seriously considering buying it... would make a wonderful Christmas present, haha)

edit: whaddya know, found the whole thing on PDF:
http://satanicsingles.com/library/Kitabi.pdf

But what you're suggesting is strongly suggestive of the zany Sitchen-inspired UFO theology of the Joy of Satan... the idea that humans were genetically engineered by the evil alien-lizard-lord Yahweh as slaves, until the alien angel Satan rebelled and freed us from our fetters.

That said, the former is an interesting premise, but bringing Satan into the picture doesn't make any sense, considering he didn't really exist in any mythology until a few centuries before the advent of Christianity. And as Dan said, the romanticized "rebellious Lucifer" wasn't created until Dante and Milton.

In any case, I'm playing around with this fun little legend in my head inspired by Gnosticism, where the hebrew God is actually a hideous lovecraftian flying alien eel-thing with a mane of tentacles and strong psychic power. Named Yaltabaoth, he didn't create anything, but being a lone sentient being, he ignorantly thinks he created the universe. He travels from galaxy to galaxy seeking intelligent lifeforms to prey upon, parasitically drawing strength from those who worship him. Lucifer is not a literal being, but is the manifestation of the inner will, enlightenment, and independence of humanity. Thus man becomes his own savior through his Satanic nature.

I don't literally believe any of it, but it's fun to ponder and fantasize about...

...yeah I'm a dork.


Edited by The Zebu (12/14/08 09:58 PM)
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#16206 - 12/15/08 10:18 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Enthusiastic? Hardly. After studying this field for going on three years I've noticed a lot of things I tend to disagree with, thus the reason I don't consider myself a modern Satanist.

And yes philosophers sometimes base their ideas on other beliefs, but I found the Satanic Bible to be somewhat of a summery of philosophy's relating to humanism and the occult. Sure TSB was a good read and all, but I have passed the point where I was somewhat excited by modern Satanism. I myself am a Traditional Satanist, so I guess you could say my views differ from most on this website due to the fact that I believe Satan to be an actual being.

And I understand I have a lot to learn. Everybody does, and not specifically religion alone. I have made up my mind on what I believe at this point. Will my views change as I move on with my life? Perhaps, but for right now I am comfortable with what I believe and see no need to study more in a philosophy I have very little interest in now (the writing of Anton LaVey).

I know Satanism cannot be summed up easily..But the basic ideas and foundation for it can be easily recognized. It's the fact that individual Satanists see things differently than one another that shows there is always more to learn.

As for "walking the path", I have been hearing this from people for a long time, and when you feel as if you reached your destination, it's not that you strayed from it (which would mean you will never reach it), it's that you keep moving onward towards a new destination, not necessarily having to do with religious beliefs. As I stated before, I'm comfortable with where I am at this point in time regarding to beleifs, therefore I feel I have reached my destination, the destination I set for myself, which was to find my place in life and to find the reality that is true to me.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16207 - 12/15/08 10:29 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
There really is no biblical Satan as he is portrayed by modern christians.


Exactly. As in my beliefs, there is no red monstrous goat like thing with horns and a pitchfork who's kingdom is a place of torment. Being as most of my beliefs stem from the old testament, there really is no evidence that this is Satan's form. Satan can be seen in either a literal or symbolic sense as the "savior" of humanity and the god of this earth as he influenced Eve in the garden of eden to eat from the tree of knowledge, giving her the ability to tell good from evil, right from wrong, to give into her human emotions and to sin, to have free will and be released from gods strict system.

Any Christian that has actually read the bible and believes Satan as a beastly figure is sadly mistaken, although the book of revelation (which doesn't actually speak about Satan directly) can be interpreted to make them have that idea. But as you said, it was the art and literature of the time that gave Satan this false identity.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16214 - 12/15/08 02:28 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Well if one reads the bible, they see the character of "Satan" gradually transform from a minor prosecutor-angel, to some all-evil demonic force of ultimate sin culminating in a dualistic apocalypse of good vs. evil. This is a far cry from the original context of the OT, and anyone with half a brain realizes that this is a literary (not literal) transformation only, and that the bible is just that- a work of literature.

And if one also compares the progressive narrative of the bible with the cultural features of the time, they can also see that the increments of the evolution of Satan correlate with key milestones in Judaic history... Genesis is a near carbon-coby of older Semetic myths. Judaism was never an organized religion until after they had been under the Egyptians (who had a similarly structured religion). Demons did not exist in Judaism until the babylonian captivity (whose mythology is rife with demons), and the good vs. evil cosmology did not arise until they had been living under the Persians, whose Zoroastrian religion centered around the struggle between an All-Good God and an All-Evil Devil.

If you want to present the bible as a coherent context, then the biblical Satan cannot logically exist because all of these outside influences have created gaping plot holes in the bible's story (with nothing yet said about Christianity). Drawing any ultimate conclusions about the universe from it is an incredibly vague and risky business.
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#16220 - 12/15/08 03:37 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I never said I came to conclusion with anything in the bible...In fact my beliefs are more closely tied with the pagan belief structures of the ancient world.

You are right that the bible is a work of literature, and I'm not saying I have any faith in it what so ever. My beliefs stem from my own expiriences with the occult and sprituality for the most part. I do however believe the first book in the old testament, the book of genesis, to have some "truth" behind it, but that's a whole different topic as to why I believe what I do, and I don't feel like typing everything up.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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