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#16247 - 12/15/08 09:43 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I myself am a Traditional Satanist, so I guess you could say my views differ from most on this website due to the fact that I believe Satan to be an actual being.

Oh man. I'd ask why your faith is any different than that of a christian or muslim, and barring some sort of marked difference in epistemological standards, suggest you are really just another strain of that same entity, but that road is pointless and boring.

 Quote:

Being as most of my beliefs stem from the old testament, there really is no evidence that this is Satan's form

But just out of curiosity, could you tell me which OT passages convinced you of the existence of a real Satan and why? Having read both the OT and NT several times cover to cover, as well as a ton of cursory study along the way, and having never seen anything to suggest any literal truth to these books, I am genuinely curious as to your reasoning.

I am only curious because most self identified 'traditional satanists' that I have met over the years can scarcely type a coherent sentence, much less give a logical and sound reason for why they believe as they do. I am anxiously awaiting perhaps my first ever cogent response to this question. I have high hopes.




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#16386 - 12/17/08 05:13 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
My faith differs from christianity and islam in the sense that the goals in Satanism are to become closer with Satan as an entity, an entity unlike the god jehova and allah in the sense of what Satan stands for. Even in modern Satanism satanists relate the idea of Satan as a symbol for freedom. Freedom to embrace in sin, and giving into your human desires and not condemning your feelings and emotions. Satan stands for power and knowledge and is the adversary of god and all those who are ashamed of their true natural desires enough to condemn them.

In the OT, there is nothing to prove the existence of a real Satan. In fact, there's nothing to prove the existence of a real god, or demons or angels either. It is an article of faith. And through my own experiences and what I have read and studied I have come to my own conclusion about where I stand when it comes to religion.

Why does anyone follow a belief structure? Why are you a modern Satanist? Everyone has their own personal reasons for why they believe what they do. Just because I believe something doesn't mean it is actually true, I understand that. But for me, I have done enough searching in my opinion to formulate my beliefs.

As I stated in my other posts, there is a possibility that there was an advanced race long before humanity came about, that were responsible in one way or another for our creation (not for the creation of the universe). Although it may not seem like it, I always try to think logically when it comes to my beliefs. As I said I support theories such as the big bang and evolution. What I try to do is balance my beliefs with both science and logical thinking, meaning I don't just blindly follow a faith system with absolutely no logic behind it. I am a traditional Satanist, however that does not mean I am bound to a certain set of rules or guidelines for being such. I am a free thinker and always try to stay open minded. Can my faith be proven? No, or at least not yet. And you can't totally disregard all research done in fields such as metaphysics and parapsychology as bullshit unless there is enough evidence to prove that to be false as well.

Sure I may sound stupid when it comes to what I believe, but I believe what I do for my own reasons, not just because of what it says in a book. Sure part of my beliefs may be based on the OT, but as I said you need to dig deeper than the surface. I do take part of it word by word, such as the very first passage of the OT (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth). It does not necessarily mean the beginning of existence, and that is where I believe such theories as the big bang come into play, that they happened before the beginning of this world.

Bottom line, I can believe what I believe and take a look at it from a scientific aspect, because it doesn't necessarily contradict my beliefs (as it does with other religions).

That is all I have to say. I hope I answered your questions and that your wait was worth it.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16398 - 12/17/08 06:11 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

My faith differs from christianity and islam in the sense that the goals in Satanism are to become closer with Satan as an entity

Although you follow this by adding that the goals and beliefs of Satanism are different (as, coincidentally are the beliefs of Christianity and Islam) your epistemological reasoning is exactly the same, and that was what I was asking.

 Quote:

Just because I believe something doesn't mean it is actually true, I understand that.

That is crazy talk. The very definition of a belief is 'any cognitive content held as true'
 Quote:

OT, there is nothing to prove the existence of a real Satan. In fact, there's nothing to prove the existence of a real god, or demons or angels either. It is an article of faith.

Ok, so you believe on faith. At least you are honest about it. Personally, I just can't wrap my mind around the complete abandonment of epistemology required to get to that point, but sometimes I am a little envious of those that can.

 Quote:

Why does anyone follow a belief structure? Why are you a modern Satanist?

I have always has an extremely skeptical disposition and an inquisitive personality. Combine this with my inherent attraction for all things of the dark side, lust for life, and drive for personal success, it only seemed appropriate to use the label that was already there to describe my certain type of human. There really isn't that much variance in human behavior.

Anyway, thanks for your answer.
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#16406 - 12/17/08 07:41 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Anyway, thanks for your answer.


You're welcome. And setting our main differences aside (theistic and atheistic beliefs), I am no different than you in a philosophical sense, meaning we share similar views on what Satan stands for. The only major difference is I believe Satan to be a real entity.

And you mentioned you had an attraction for all things on the dark side. This is exactly what got me into (modern) Satanism years ago, due to the fact that at that time I was an Atheist and also found things like occultism, black magick and Satan very interesting. I did consider myself a LaVeyan Satanist at once point in time, but that was before my "experiences" with witchcraft. I won't announce exactly what went on that changed my mind, but if you are really interested you can send me a PM.

And when I said that something I believe doesn't necessarily have to be true, I was referring to the fact that just because one person believes something doesn't mean it's true, I just happened to use myself as an example.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16414 - 12/17/08 08:33 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
A decent explanation, but I do have one question. Why do you identity as a "traditional" Satanist?
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#16415 - 12/17/08 08:45 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
A decent explanation, but I do have one question. Why do you identity as a "traditional" Satanist?


Because I believe Satan to be the entity mentioned in the Old Testament. I believe him to be the serpent that tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (and then Adam) and become aware of their enslavement from god. I also believe he rebelled against god for the good of humankind and set up his kingdom of Hell for his faithful.

That, among other things, is what defines me to be a Traditional Satanist.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16419 - 12/17/08 10:54 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Hmm... but wouldn't that being be "the serpent", and not "Satan"? Merging the two is a distinctly Christian interpretation. Satan does mean "adversary", but the only spiritual being ever associated with that name was traditionally believed to be an angel loyal to Yahweh.

I can understand that you can see some tradition behind that, considering that there were some sects like the Gnostics that exalted the Serpent of Eden.

But where did you get the idea that he set up "a kingdom of hell for the faithful"? Hell is mentioned nowhere in the Old Testament. The closest thing, "Sheol", "Hades", or "the grave" is never even remotely associated with Satan or the Serpent. Nor do the latter two beings ever promise any kingdom or holy land or heaven, or ask humans to worship them.

At best, the Serpent is presented as more of a "spiritual guide" than an actual God. He is not all-powerful, nor does he demand worship, but represents the spiritual truth that we can "become as Gods" if we but reach out and take from the tree of life.
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#16444 - 12/18/08 01:19 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
The serpent brought temptation to act against god to Eve. He told her if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would be like god. The serpent has always been personified as the fallen angel, for who else would tempt man to sin before they could think for themselves and they were under god's command? And yes, I believe he was an angel once loyal to Jehova, however I don't see Jehova/Yahweh as being an all powerful entity, but an angel like Satan, of the same race.

I am also not basing all of my beliefs on the bible remember. Some of my beliefs stem from other things, my experiences and other books I have read pertaining to occultism and Satanism. And I do believe having read a few passages from the bible mentioning Satan as the "god of this world"...The passage is 4 Corinthians 4:4, coming from the new testament...

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of god, should shine upon them."

What I got from the passage was that first of all, Jehova is not the god of this world. Secondly, this god has deceived many people by preventing them from seeing christ who is the image of god, who Satan is opposed to. Some may look at this as Satan keeping people away from god so that they will not have to serve him in this world or the afterlife. And my other beliefs, that Satan stood up for man, can be somewhat seen here in the fact that he is still keeping us away from god and that he is the dominant god when it comes to this world.

Now with that said, I do try to back up my faith as much as possible, such as giving room to the race of angels having been an advanced civilization and a product of evolution that had a part in the creation of our race and the world as we know it today.

And no, he does not demand to be worshiped at all. This is where my beliefs differ from christianity/islam/judaism. He does not ask to be worshiped or praised because he would be contradicting himself, seeing as he rebelled against Jehova because of his strict rule. As a traditional Satanist, I decide on my own to become his follower and to worship him.

 Quote:

At best, the Serpent is presented as more of a "spiritual guide" than an actual God. He is not all-powerful, nor does he demand worship, but represents the spiritual truth that we can "become as Gods" if we but reach out and take from the tree of life.


I agree with you on this. I do believe the serpent (who is in my opinion a form of Satan) to be a spiritual guide, helping us become god-like and become free beings. I do worship him as a god however for a few different reasons, mainly because I see him as a savior to humankind in the sense that he broke us free from the enslavement of Jehova. He is there for anyone who wants to follow him and he does not demand anything out of humanity (I explained this earlier in the post). I don't believe he has any influence on life whatsoever, unless you ask him for guidance, which I did more than 3 years ago, and since then I have been directed in many different directions until finally coming to what I believe is a conclusion.

These are just my beliefs though, and as I said before, they don't come from nowhere. Things that have happened and things I have experienced have created my faith, instead of me trying to explain it.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16476 - 12/18/08 05:24 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Mike
Now with that said, I do try to back up my faith as much as possible, such as giving room to the race of angels having been an advanced civilization and a product of evolution that had a part in the creation of our race and the world as we know it today.

Sorry, but my coffee literally came out my nose on reading that.

Just because you can make such wild speculations, and claim that they can't be 100% disproved, doesn't make it a 50/50 likelihood that such ideas are true. There might be a 1 in 1000000000000000000 (to be generous) chance that your ideas are literally true, but just because it isn't 100% disproven doesn't add one iota to your case.
There is a little concept called 'burden of proof', which insists that any claim be backed up with sufficient evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
To assert 'you can't know it's not true' is to commit the logical fallacy of 'shifting the burden of proof'.

Honestly Mike, your epistemology is akin to mixing up oil and water and trying to stir them hard enough, in the hope that they will blend.
You can't 'back up' a faith in anything - or it wouldn't be faith.
The whole point of faith is that it is blind.

It's one thing to have an honest faith, and admit it's groundless and irrational, but believe it anyway. That is called 'fideism', and at least has the virtue of honesty.

But what I find more objectionable is when believers are intellectually dishonest, and flop-flop between trying to give rational justifications for their beliefs (however wild and groundless the speculations in case are), then revert to 'well it's my faith/opinion'.
You can't have your cake and eat it.

Or worse, revert to epistemic relativism - such as "Well that's just your opinion" in response to objective empirical evidence and logical critique.
Of course, this assertion of "that's just opinion" is stated as FACT. Oh the contradictions!

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#16477 - 12/18/08 06:03 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Meq]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
So what do you expect me to say? I have my faith and search for explanation of things involved with it. What is it with the constant crushing of faith-based beliefs? I don't post on here so I can explain myself, I came here for discussion of whatever topics I find interesting enough.

Everybody has their own opinion. That doesn't mean everyone is right. You mentioned burden of proof but where's the proof behind your opinion? Is faith a bad thing? I can see why people on here are quick to judge, especially when the topic has anything to do with faith, but it sounds as if some of you on this forum are purposely trying to crush my beliefs and totally disregard them as bullshit.

Just because the majority of people think one way doesn't mean it's "right". My original post was based on the possibility that certain aspects of intelligent design could at least be considered plausible. You said yourself there is a chance my beliefs are true, as small of a chance that is. Again, my beliefs aren't based fully on faith. Although it may not seem this way, I actually do try to aproach my faith from a scientific stand point, asking myself somewhere along the lines of "well what if there was this that caused that and then that caused this concluding this". I've been told over and over again to question everything. Is it impossible to have faith yet search for answers to your unanswered questions about your faith? Bullshit aside, It's not like I woke up one day and decided I'm going to be a Satanist...My beliefs do come from somewhere. You can't (like some) throw things like metaphysics and paranormal research straight to the bullshit pile. It's a theory, much like the big bang theory or evolution. Yes, there is the burden of proof, but can a theory ever actually be proven?
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#16479 - 12/18/08 06:28 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This isn't faith Mike. It's a cocktail of pile-up-some-shit and make-it-feel-pretty-special. Faith relies on believing and people believe because religion of even a philosophy provides certain structures that cling to their brains and make it all very real and acceptable to them. What you present here is pretty hard for me to even consider faith. It's more like some construction, artificially created to feel either very special or to want to be very special.

I think it is a pile of dust and a little poking into each of its parts will make it crumble.
You put such a pile of shit together and defend it with such weak arguments that the whole thing is more a display of intellectual weakness than anything else.

D.

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#16480 - 12/18/08 06:30 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Of course theories can be proven. Theories proven become FACTS.

The theory of gravity.
The theory of flight.

These are very simplistic, since they're incontrovertible. Everyone knows that these are hard and fast facts, but there was a time that these facts were just theories. It took PROOF to change them from theories to facts... and that proof has to be something that is put to rigorous testing and the results of that testing have to be replicable. When a theory is as gossamer as one's belief on faith alone that there was a race before man who...

But as you have postulated this theory, based solely on your faith, it's up to you to provide that burden of proof. Those with a skeptical mind will always challenge you, and you, must be able to show them that there is something to your beliefs beyond what you surmise from the texts of books.

If there were indeed an "alien race" that coexisted with man and went into rebellion against another faction of that race, here on earth, where then would be the artifacts that provided the proof of that existence? Bones differing from that of indiginous human populations... a metalic object consisting of an element unavailable in the prehistory... SOMETHING.

There have been a lot of theories about an advanced race from space coming to the earth. The talking discs of Baian-Kara-Ula in China... supposedly the work of a strange race called the Dropa, found in artificially created caves; the Dogon tribesmen of Mali who claimed knowledge of an extraterrestrial race from what we now know as Sirius. The primitive tribesmen knew that Sirius was not one star, but TWO, long, long before it could be proven through astronomical measurement. These are tantalizing tidbits... but whatever the outcome of scientific inquiry, there is some element of proof that can be touched... can be measured and quantified... that gives one the sense that there is something there beyond just speculation and conjecture.

So, sure. It's hard to take a theory that totally faith based well, on faith. Anyone can come up with a theory... some sound pretty good. But Mike, "the proof is in the pudding." If you can come up with anything tangible, besides the overworked writings in the Bible, you'd have a lot better chance of at least having people take the theory semi-seriously.

But if you believe, you believe. No harm in that, so long as you don't take 900 people with you to Guyana with a crate of kool aid and cyanide.
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#16481 - 12/18/08 06:40 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Jake999]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
But if you believe, you believe. No harm in that, so long as you don't take 900 people with you to Guyana with a crate of kool aid and cyanide.


Thank you. I know my personal beliefs sound a bit odd but they are my beliefs and are important to me. And I'm trying not to be rude, but I really don't appreciate the way people on this website jump onto a topic and bash you for it. It has been my experience on the older forum that because of my age (at least I think that was the reason) that I wasn't to be taken that seriously and that everyone had something to teach me. I can take criticism, but when people intentionally get on my case and bash my beliefs until the point where they expect me to cave in, it's crossing the line. And I know now people are just going to give me shit for being "over sensative" or whatever, but to be honest I really don't care. I'm not here to be pushed around, I am here to discuss and learn, and I deserve just as much respect as anyone else on this forum.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16483 - 12/18/08 06:45 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
I am here to discuss and learn, and I deserve just as much respect as anyone else on this forum.


Your opinions and beliefs will get the respect they are worth, if they are shit, they will be treated as such. If you can't handle that, too bad but such is the nature of this place. Don't demand to be hailed for nothing worth hailing.

D.

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#16484 - 12/18/08 07:05 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Mike
You mentioned burden of proof but where's the proof behind your opinion?

Which opinion do you mean?

 Originally Posted By: Mike
Is faith a bad thing?

I never said that. Read my post again.
Intellectual dishonesty is what I object to, not faith per se.
It's when a person believes things on faith (i.e. purely subjective emotion), then tries to rationalize them as if they are based on some kind of evidence or reason (such as referring to the evidence-based theory of evolution) - then flip-flops back to a 'faith' stance when questioned, before trying to back up their beliefs once more with reason.
It's inconsistent and dishonest.

 Quote:
Just because the majority of people think one way doesn't mean it's "right". My original post was based on the possibility that certain aspects of intelligent design could at least be considered plausible.

Theories such as evolution by natural selection do indeed need to be evaluated on their own empirical merits, rather than by reference to popular opinion (but if truth were democratic, the US populace' opinions would prove intelligent design).

 Quote:
I actually do try to aproach my faith from a scientific stand point, asking myself somewhere along the lines of "well what if there was this that caused that and then that caused this concluding this".

That is speculation, not science. What you have there is a HYPOTHESIS, not a theory. (And 'theory' does NOT mean 'guess').

 Quote:
It's a theory, much like the big bang theory or evolution. Yes, there is the burden of proof, but can a theory ever actually be proven

No, metaphysics is NOT a 'theory' in the way the Big Bang or evolution are. The latter are falsifiable and evidence-based. I suggest you read up on the definition of a scientific 'theory' vs a 'hypothesis'.

 Quote:
You can't (like some) throw things like metaphysics and paranormal research straight to the bullshit pile.

I think there is a place for empirical research into supposed 'paranormal' activity - provided any conclusions are kept strictly separate from 'faith', and instead rely on the same epistemology as real science. I'm all for challenging metaphysical materialism or physicalism as a dogma from a critical stance - but not to replace it with bullshit.
Of course, this runs the inherent risk of looking for things we can't explain, rather than science's role of looking for viable explanations.
Such a venture requires a partnership between philosopers and psychologists with parapsychologists, if the latter have any hope of establishing themselves as a bona fide science.


Edited by Mequa (12/18/08 07:14 PM)
Edit Reason: Metaphysical comment

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