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#16152 - 12/13/08 11:05 PM "The Diabolicon"
Mike Offline
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Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I was at the book store a few weeks ago, browsing through the religion section when I came across the book "Ketab-e-Siyah" by Tsirk Susej.

Since I had read and enjoyed "The Demonic Bible" by Susej, I thought I'd give this one a read.

I found the book rather entertaining to some extent, being as it is a collection of texts influenced by Satan, including the Al-Jilwah, Meshaf I Resh, Livri Luciferius, and so on. The one text that really caught my attention was The Diabolicon, a short book said to have been influenced by Satan about the creation of the universe. To my surprise, it was a very interesting read and it brought up a few questions...

The main idea behind it is that the Christian God and Satan were the result of evolution and were early beings in the universe that created life on Earth, rather than a single god that created everything. The main question I have is might this be a possibilty? Could it have been possible that the earliest signs of life eventually snowballed into life as we know it today? Would this fall under evlolution? That the "angels" mentioned in the bible or gods were an earlier race, enslaved by order of one of their own kind until the one called Lucifer rebelled with those that were loyal to him?

Sure the stories of God and Satan may simply just be stories and nothing more, but the main idea behind it I found was simply evolution, a theory that is believed by many people. Could then the stories of past civilizations have some truth to them? Or possibly even the book of Genesis?

I am not saying I believe these things to be true, but I am considering the possibility.

So my question is, what does everybody think about this? And if you have read the Diabolicon, what is your take on it?
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16156 - 12/14/08 05:22 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
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This would require to think of history as cyclical. Civilizations rising from dust, getting to their max and degenerating into nothing again. In some way it can be seen as valid but not really at a scientific level. It can be debated that there have been other civilizations but what we find of them doesn't show them as more advanced in the context of how we view advanced nowadays. No matter how many civilizations of the past you'd study or look into, you'd only see a progress up to where we stand now. A darwinist selection pushing things forward and forward (not to be regarded as into the right direction, selection is blind) up to where we are now. So no, I don't think there have been angels and devils, most of those concepts are invented and explored at the heights of our religious stupidity.
And although genesis borrowed its content from other lore, I do see it as manner (form) of how to explain things in their crude understanding. It can be argued there have been some facts true to the stories, like might have been with the flood but I don't think much of the metaphysical stuff is valid.

The idea that god and satan created life is just confusing up the question a bit more. We don't really know what created life to begin with. We do know what lifeforms were probably earliest and how they evolved into what is seen now but inserting the idea of two other advanced lifeforms that created all those simple lifeforms is ridiculous. We'd have to go and explain how they came into existance and evolved into what they are now. Has there been a Deus Erectus that evolved into a Deus Sapiens? See, rather silly to even consider.

I didn't read the book, so only commenting on what you present.

D.

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#16157 - 12/14/08 05:49 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
Butterz Offline
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I think I have read the book you're speaking of except what I read was written by Michael Aquino. Same book name and same concept tho. I found a pdf file so here is the link, its a quick read.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/blacklotusmonastery/texts/diabolicon.pdf

In the idea that there is a God and Satan this is like the missing book from the bible.

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#16158 - 12/14/08 05:58 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Butterz]
Diavolo Offline
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I did an online search yeah and discovered a text written by Aquino. With all respect for what the guy did but the intention of the text puzzles me. To a degree I see it as something metaphorical, like the old forms but due to its vaguesness, it can be anything the reader wants. It's not my kind of form although others might prefer it. I gave up after page 9 or so without it giving me anything new or mindblowing to continue upon.

If there is anything, it should not be taken literal imo. I don't think Aquino solved the puzzle of existance or knows what happened before point x.

D.

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#16173 - 12/14/08 01:05 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
Mike Offline
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You have to also take into consideration that this text at least doesn't contradict what we already know about the universe. Sure it is close to impossible for one, two, or any amount of advanced beings so far back in time to have created life as we know it today, but as you stated if you look at it in a metaphorical sense, it can be taken as symbology for evolution as I stated in my original post. Perhaps by referring to early life as "gods", it might be in a different sense than most would think. Instead of thinking of the usual views of what a god is, you can consider the fact that basic life, having evolved into what we see today, could be seen as our "creator" or creators. Or quite possibly many aeons after the first signs of life, a race of intelligent beings could have spawned the human race in some way or another, possibly by reproducing with another similar race.

It is easy to be sceptical, but in my opinion this theory is open for discussion and should be further researched, from a scientific perspective of course. Maybe there is an explanation but we are just not advanced enough yet to figure it out.
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#16174 - 12/14/08 01:21 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
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We aren't talking about an age-old text here, digged up at the ruins of Yazzi-Wallabi. This is a document written by Aquino during his time with the CoS. He'll probably know the reason why it was written but of the many things Aquino might be, evolutionary scientist or historian isn't one of them. Or I might be seriously mistaken.

So what value does the document have at that level? Basically none but what the reader grants it. In my opinion it probably served no other purpose as giving dept to Modern Satanism, a bit like the dark doctrines.

All debate about its value as truth in a historical or scientific perspective might be nice and dandy for some but is below my intellectual standards, so I won't even open myself up for that option. It's not because some text contains Satan that all satanists need to take it as serious material.

But don't let that hinder others from going wild on it. I won't interfere.

Edit: I looked up his own writing about it:

 Quote:
When leaving for South Vietnam in June 1969 I had taken with me a copy of John Milton’s epic Paradise Lost, which I considered then, as now, one of the most exalted statements of Satanism ever written. Satan is its true hero; its Christian moralisms are so pale and watery in comparison that I am surprised it and its author were not summarily burned upon its appearance in Cromwellian England. That it not only survived Puritan censorship but was actually lauded as a compliment to Christianity is yet another of those titanic ironies which have accompanied the Prince of Darkness on his tortuous journey across the eras of human civilization.As much as I admired Paradise Lost, I was annoyed at its ever-present, if pro forma bias. The die was loaded against Satan; he might put up a good fight, but in the end he was doomed to defeat. It was not so much that I wanted to see him triumph. Rather I felt that his power and position were equal to God’s if not more potent, and I wanted to see a contest that would more accurately represent the struggle between the Powers of Darkness and those of Light.In early 1970 I took pen in hand and, during the moments when I was not occupied with military responsibilities [at the time I was based in the village of Lai Khe, directing PSYOP teams for the 1st Infantry Division], I began to write a restatement of certain themes from Paradise Lost. It was hardly an “ivory tower” meditation. I wrote in old, bombed-out buildings dating from the French occupation, in helicopters, in tents, and in the midst of underbrush in the “Iron Triangle” and “Trapezoid” (!) fire zones. Part of the text of the “Statement of Beelzebub” had to be reconstructed from notes at one point when an incoming rocket blew a packet of papers [and the storage room holding them] to atoms. Often, as I had remarked to Ferro, I would be interrupted from my musings by the sudden necessity to dive for a sandbagged bomb shelter.Slowly but inevitably, however, the manuscript crept towards completion. I say “inevitably” because I began to develop a most peculiar feeling about it. As I wrote the sequential passages, I seemed to sense, rather than determine what they should say. And if I penned words or phrases that “didn’t fit”, I would experience continual irritation and impatience until I had replaced them with the “correct” combination. It was as though the text had a life of its own; and even when it was done, I found myself unable to type it as I had originally intended to do. Instead I took another month to copy it into a finished book of two volumes in an odd calligraphic script of mine that, once more, “imposed itself” on the project. By about the middle of March it was done, and I sent it off to Anton LaVey in San Francisco. Its title was The Diabolicon, and a transcript is enclosed as Appendix #15.


You can find the rest in his 'Church of Satan' document.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/14/08 01:32 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#16175 - 12/14/08 02:10 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
selfish666 Offline
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To think of god or satan to have createed the universe is to give deification to these names.I admit that there is alot that we don't know out there but one thing I do know is Anton LaVey said that the god we save may be ourselves and that I do beleive. I am my own God and I will save myself by my own 2 hands ,my mind,intellect. I am my own redeemer. There is alot more in life to worry about than where I came from or how I got here. I live on this plane so that is what I focus on what is to my earthly good,how to better myself while here,cause this is heaven and hell there is no heaven above or a hell where sinners roast,now is our time,now is our hour,belife in ones self is true power.
Read the Satanic Bible and your questions will be answered.
HAIL SATAN!!!

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#16177 - 12/14/08 03:10 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: selfish666]
Mike Offline
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Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
The Satanic Bible is nothing but a book of reference to what most modern Satanists believe to be the base of their "beliefs", even though most of the material in the Satanic Bible was influenced by past philosophers that LeVay did not credit.

The only questions it will answer are questions about LeVayan Satanism...And do you really think Diavolo never read TSB?

Btw, your post was a nice summery of the Satanic Bible in itself. It would probably be easier for someone to read your post than the Satanic Bible. Plus the only person your ripping off is LeVay.
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#16179 - 12/14/08 06:22 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Hello Mike.

You seem enthusiastic about Satanism, and you also are fairly well written for one so young. Bonus points.

First off, the mans name was LaVey, not LeVay. This might seem trivial but it really isn't. Respect where it is due.

Secondly, all philosophies are influenced by other philosophies. Nowhere does LaVey claim to be creating something new, rather he admits to giving a name to something old, yet unnamed. In the original print of TSB, Anton Dedicates the book to one Ragnar Redbeard. Perhaps you have heard of him?

Third, you have a lot to learn yet. Satanism can not be summed up in a paragraph. Walk the path, and keep walking. If you think you have reached the destination you have strayed from it.
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#16180 - 12/14/08 06:31 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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As for the subject at hand, studying the bible from a historical perspective pretty much eliminates any credibility it might have beyond grains of historical truth in a dune of bullshit.

There really is no biblical Satan as he is portrayed by modern christians. That guy was invented in the 1600s by authors like Milton and Dante, and has no real biblical justification that does not require a liberal dose of eisegesis to get off the ground. The idea that this character might have had something to do with our real world history is a few steps beyond ridiculous.
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#16189 - 12/14/08 09:47 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The Zebu Offline
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Loc: Orlando, FL
Wasn't too hot about the Demonic Bible, but I looked up the Ketab-E-Siyah anyways. In all honesty I think it's a great idea, and I myself had actually been trying to compile an "eclectic Satanic Bible" like that. (nearly 500 pages for under 30 dollars... I'm actually seriously considering buying it... would make a wonderful Christmas present, haha)

edit: whaddya know, found the whole thing on PDF:
http://satanicsingles.com/library/Kitabi.pdf

But what you're suggesting is strongly suggestive of the zany Sitchen-inspired UFO theology of the Joy of Satan... the idea that humans were genetically engineered by the evil alien-lizard-lord Yahweh as slaves, until the alien angel Satan rebelled and freed us from our fetters.

That said, the former is an interesting premise, but bringing Satan into the picture doesn't make any sense, considering he didn't really exist in any mythology until a few centuries before the advent of Christianity. And as Dan said, the romanticized "rebellious Lucifer" wasn't created until Dante and Milton.

In any case, I'm playing around with this fun little legend in my head inspired by Gnosticism, where the hebrew God is actually a hideous lovecraftian flying alien eel-thing with a mane of tentacles and strong psychic power. Named Yaltabaoth, he didn't create anything, but being a lone sentient being, he ignorantly thinks he created the universe. He travels from galaxy to galaxy seeking intelligent lifeforms to prey upon, parasitically drawing strength from those who worship him. Lucifer is not a literal being, but is the manifestation of the inner will, enlightenment, and independence of humanity. Thus man becomes his own savior through his Satanic nature.

I don't literally believe any of it, but it's fun to ponder and fantasize about...

...yeah I'm a dork.


Edited by The Zebu (12/14/08 09:58 PM)
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#16206 - 12/15/08 10:18 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Enthusiastic? Hardly. After studying this field for going on three years I've noticed a lot of things I tend to disagree with, thus the reason I don't consider myself a modern Satanist.

And yes philosophers sometimes base their ideas on other beliefs, but I found the Satanic Bible to be somewhat of a summery of philosophy's relating to humanism and the occult. Sure TSB was a good read and all, but I have passed the point where I was somewhat excited by modern Satanism. I myself am a Traditional Satanist, so I guess you could say my views differ from most on this website due to the fact that I believe Satan to be an actual being.

And I understand I have a lot to learn. Everybody does, and not specifically religion alone. I have made up my mind on what I believe at this point. Will my views change as I move on with my life? Perhaps, but for right now I am comfortable with what I believe and see no need to study more in a philosophy I have very little interest in now (the writing of Anton LaVey).

I know Satanism cannot be summed up easily..But the basic ideas and foundation for it can be easily recognized. It's the fact that individual Satanists see things differently than one another that shows there is always more to learn.

As for "walking the path", I have been hearing this from people for a long time, and when you feel as if you reached your destination, it's not that you strayed from it (which would mean you will never reach it), it's that you keep moving onward towards a new destination, not necessarily having to do with religious beliefs. As I stated before, I'm comfortable with where I am at this point in time regarding to beleifs, therefore I feel I have reached my destination, the destination I set for myself, which was to find my place in life and to find the reality that is true to me.
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#16207 - 12/15/08 10:29 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Posts: 253
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
There really is no biblical Satan as he is portrayed by modern christians.


Exactly. As in my beliefs, there is no red monstrous goat like thing with horns and a pitchfork who's kingdom is a place of torment. Being as most of my beliefs stem from the old testament, there really is no evidence that this is Satan's form. Satan can be seen in either a literal or symbolic sense as the "savior" of humanity and the god of this earth as he influenced Eve in the garden of eden to eat from the tree of knowledge, giving her the ability to tell good from evil, right from wrong, to give into her human emotions and to sin, to have free will and be released from gods strict system.

Any Christian that has actually read the bible and believes Satan as a beastly figure is sadly mistaken, although the book of revelation (which doesn't actually speak about Satan directly) can be interpreted to make them have that idea. But as you said, it was the art and literature of the time that gave Satan this false identity.
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#16214 - 12/15/08 02:28 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Well if one reads the bible, they see the character of "Satan" gradually transform from a minor prosecutor-angel, to some all-evil demonic force of ultimate sin culminating in a dualistic apocalypse of good vs. evil. This is a far cry from the original context of the OT, and anyone with half a brain realizes that this is a literary (not literal) transformation only, and that the bible is just that- a work of literature.

And if one also compares the progressive narrative of the bible with the cultural features of the time, they can also see that the increments of the evolution of Satan correlate with key milestones in Judaic history... Genesis is a near carbon-coby of older Semetic myths. Judaism was never an organized religion until after they had been under the Egyptians (who had a similarly structured religion). Demons did not exist in Judaism until the babylonian captivity (whose mythology is rife with demons), and the good vs. evil cosmology did not arise until they had been living under the Persians, whose Zoroastrian religion centered around the struggle between an All-Good God and an All-Evil Devil.

If you want to present the bible as a coherent context, then the biblical Satan cannot logically exist because all of these outside influences have created gaping plot holes in the bible's story (with nothing yet said about Christianity). Drawing any ultimate conclusions about the universe from it is an incredibly vague and risky business.
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#16220 - 12/15/08 03:37 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
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I never said I came to conclusion with anything in the bible...In fact my beliefs are more closely tied with the pagan belief structures of the ancient world.

You are right that the bible is a work of literature, and I'm not saying I have any faith in it what so ever. My beliefs stem from my own expiriences with the occult and sprituality for the most part. I do however believe the first book in the old testament, the book of genesis, to have some "truth" behind it, but that's a whole different topic as to why I believe what I do, and I don't feel like typing everything up.
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#16247 - 12/15/08 09:43 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

I myself am a Traditional Satanist, so I guess you could say my views differ from most on this website due to the fact that I believe Satan to be an actual being.

Oh man. I'd ask why your faith is any different than that of a christian or muslim, and barring some sort of marked difference in epistemological standards, suggest you are really just another strain of that same entity, but that road is pointless and boring.

 Quote:

Being as most of my beliefs stem from the old testament, there really is no evidence that this is Satan's form

But just out of curiosity, could you tell me which OT passages convinced you of the existence of a real Satan and why? Having read both the OT and NT several times cover to cover, as well as a ton of cursory study along the way, and having never seen anything to suggest any literal truth to these books, I am genuinely curious as to your reasoning.

I am only curious because most self identified 'traditional satanists' that I have met over the years can scarcely type a coherent sentence, much less give a logical and sound reason for why they believe as they do. I am anxiously awaiting perhaps my first ever cogent response to this question. I have high hopes.




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#16386 - 12/17/08 05:13 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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My faith differs from christianity and islam in the sense that the goals in Satanism are to become closer with Satan as an entity, an entity unlike the god jehova and allah in the sense of what Satan stands for. Even in modern Satanism satanists relate the idea of Satan as a symbol for freedom. Freedom to embrace in sin, and giving into your human desires and not condemning your feelings and emotions. Satan stands for power and knowledge and is the adversary of god and all those who are ashamed of their true natural desires enough to condemn them.

In the OT, there is nothing to prove the existence of a real Satan. In fact, there's nothing to prove the existence of a real god, or demons or angels either. It is an article of faith. And through my own experiences and what I have read and studied I have come to my own conclusion about where I stand when it comes to religion.

Why does anyone follow a belief structure? Why are you a modern Satanist? Everyone has their own personal reasons for why they believe what they do. Just because I believe something doesn't mean it is actually true, I understand that. But for me, I have done enough searching in my opinion to formulate my beliefs.

As I stated in my other posts, there is a possibility that there was an advanced race long before humanity came about, that were responsible in one way or another for our creation (not for the creation of the universe). Although it may not seem like it, I always try to think logically when it comes to my beliefs. As I said I support theories such as the big bang and evolution. What I try to do is balance my beliefs with both science and logical thinking, meaning I don't just blindly follow a faith system with absolutely no logic behind it. I am a traditional Satanist, however that does not mean I am bound to a certain set of rules or guidelines for being such. I am a free thinker and always try to stay open minded. Can my faith be proven? No, or at least not yet. And you can't totally disregard all research done in fields such as metaphysics and parapsychology as bullshit unless there is enough evidence to prove that to be false as well.

Sure I may sound stupid when it comes to what I believe, but I believe what I do for my own reasons, not just because of what it says in a book. Sure part of my beliefs may be based on the OT, but as I said you need to dig deeper than the surface. I do take part of it word by word, such as the very first passage of the OT (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth). It does not necessarily mean the beginning of existence, and that is where I believe such theories as the big bang come into play, that they happened before the beginning of this world.

Bottom line, I can believe what I believe and take a look at it from a scientific aspect, because it doesn't necessarily contradict my beliefs (as it does with other religions).

That is all I have to say. I hope I answered your questions and that your wait was worth it.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16398 - 12/17/08 06:11 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

My faith differs from christianity and islam in the sense that the goals in Satanism are to become closer with Satan as an entity

Although you follow this by adding that the goals and beliefs of Satanism are different (as, coincidentally are the beliefs of Christianity and Islam) your epistemological reasoning is exactly the same, and that was what I was asking.

 Quote:

Just because I believe something doesn't mean it is actually true, I understand that.

That is crazy talk. The very definition of a belief is 'any cognitive content held as true'
 Quote:

OT, there is nothing to prove the existence of a real Satan. In fact, there's nothing to prove the existence of a real god, or demons or angels either. It is an article of faith.

Ok, so you believe on faith. At least you are honest about it. Personally, I just can't wrap my mind around the complete abandonment of epistemology required to get to that point, but sometimes I am a little envious of those that can.

 Quote:

Why does anyone follow a belief structure? Why are you a modern Satanist?

I have always has an extremely skeptical disposition and an inquisitive personality. Combine this with my inherent attraction for all things of the dark side, lust for life, and drive for personal success, it only seemed appropriate to use the label that was already there to describe my certain type of human. There really isn't that much variance in human behavior.

Anyway, thanks for your answer.
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#16406 - 12/17/08 07:41 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Anyway, thanks for your answer.


You're welcome. And setting our main differences aside (theistic and atheistic beliefs), I am no different than you in a philosophical sense, meaning we share similar views on what Satan stands for. The only major difference is I believe Satan to be a real entity.

And you mentioned you had an attraction for all things on the dark side. This is exactly what got me into (modern) Satanism years ago, due to the fact that at that time I was an Atheist and also found things like occultism, black magick and Satan very interesting. I did consider myself a LaVeyan Satanist at once point in time, but that was before my "experiences" with witchcraft. I won't announce exactly what went on that changed my mind, but if you are really interested you can send me a PM.

And when I said that something I believe doesn't necessarily have to be true, I was referring to the fact that just because one person believes something doesn't mean it's true, I just happened to use myself as an example.
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#16414 - 12/17/08 08:33 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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A decent explanation, but I do have one question. Why do you identity as a "traditional" Satanist?
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#16415 - 12/17/08 08:45 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
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 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
A decent explanation, but I do have one question. Why do you identity as a "traditional" Satanist?


Because I believe Satan to be the entity mentioned in the Old Testament. I believe him to be the serpent that tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (and then Adam) and become aware of their enslavement from god. I also believe he rebelled against god for the good of humankind and set up his kingdom of Hell for his faithful.

That, among other things, is what defines me to be a Traditional Satanist.
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#16419 - 12/17/08 10:54 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Hmm... but wouldn't that being be "the serpent", and not "Satan"? Merging the two is a distinctly Christian interpretation. Satan does mean "adversary", but the only spiritual being ever associated with that name was traditionally believed to be an angel loyal to Yahweh.

I can understand that you can see some tradition behind that, considering that there were some sects like the Gnostics that exalted the Serpent of Eden.

But where did you get the idea that he set up "a kingdom of hell for the faithful"? Hell is mentioned nowhere in the Old Testament. The closest thing, "Sheol", "Hades", or "the grave" is never even remotely associated with Satan or the Serpent. Nor do the latter two beings ever promise any kingdom or holy land or heaven, or ask humans to worship them.

At best, the Serpent is presented as more of a "spiritual guide" than an actual God. He is not all-powerful, nor does he demand worship, but represents the spiritual truth that we can "become as Gods" if we but reach out and take from the tree of life.
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#16444 - 12/18/08 01:19 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
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Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
The serpent brought temptation to act against god to Eve. He told her if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would be like god. The serpent has always been personified as the fallen angel, for who else would tempt man to sin before they could think for themselves and they were under god's command? And yes, I believe he was an angel once loyal to Jehova, however I don't see Jehova/Yahweh as being an all powerful entity, but an angel like Satan, of the same race.

I am also not basing all of my beliefs on the bible remember. Some of my beliefs stem from other things, my experiences and other books I have read pertaining to occultism and Satanism. And I do believe having read a few passages from the bible mentioning Satan as the "god of this world"...The passage is 4 Corinthians 4:4, coming from the new testament...

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of god, should shine upon them."

What I got from the passage was that first of all, Jehova is not the god of this world. Secondly, this god has deceived many people by preventing them from seeing christ who is the image of god, who Satan is opposed to. Some may look at this as Satan keeping people away from god so that they will not have to serve him in this world or the afterlife. And my other beliefs, that Satan stood up for man, can be somewhat seen here in the fact that he is still keeping us away from god and that he is the dominant god when it comes to this world.

Now with that said, I do try to back up my faith as much as possible, such as giving room to the race of angels having been an advanced civilization and a product of evolution that had a part in the creation of our race and the world as we know it today.

And no, he does not demand to be worshiped at all. This is where my beliefs differ from christianity/islam/judaism. He does not ask to be worshiped or praised because he would be contradicting himself, seeing as he rebelled against Jehova because of his strict rule. As a traditional Satanist, I decide on my own to become his follower and to worship him.

 Quote:

At best, the Serpent is presented as more of a "spiritual guide" than an actual God. He is not all-powerful, nor does he demand worship, but represents the spiritual truth that we can "become as Gods" if we but reach out and take from the tree of life.


I agree with you on this. I do believe the serpent (who is in my opinion a form of Satan) to be a spiritual guide, helping us become god-like and become free beings. I do worship him as a god however for a few different reasons, mainly because I see him as a savior to humankind in the sense that he broke us free from the enslavement of Jehova. He is there for anyone who wants to follow him and he does not demand anything out of humanity (I explained this earlier in the post). I don't believe he has any influence on life whatsoever, unless you ask him for guidance, which I did more than 3 years ago, and since then I have been directed in many different directions until finally coming to what I believe is a conclusion.

These are just my beliefs though, and as I said before, they don't come from nowhere. Things that have happened and things I have experienced have created my faith, instead of me trying to explain it.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16476 - 12/18/08 05:24 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Mike
Now with that said, I do try to back up my faith as much as possible, such as giving room to the race of angels having been an advanced civilization and a product of evolution that had a part in the creation of our race and the world as we know it today.

Sorry, but my coffee literally came out my nose on reading that.

Just because you can make such wild speculations, and claim that they can't be 100% disproved, doesn't make it a 50/50 likelihood that such ideas are true. There might be a 1 in 1000000000000000000 (to be generous) chance that your ideas are literally true, but just because it isn't 100% disproven doesn't add one iota to your case.
There is a little concept called 'burden of proof', which insists that any claim be backed up with sufficient evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
To assert 'you can't know it's not true' is to commit the logical fallacy of 'shifting the burden of proof'.

Honestly Mike, your epistemology is akin to mixing up oil and water and trying to stir them hard enough, in the hope that they will blend.
You can't 'back up' a faith in anything - or it wouldn't be faith.
The whole point of faith is that it is blind.

It's one thing to have an honest faith, and admit it's groundless and irrational, but believe it anyway. That is called 'fideism', and at least has the virtue of honesty.

But what I find more objectionable is when believers are intellectually dishonest, and flop-flop between trying to give rational justifications for their beliefs (however wild and groundless the speculations in case are), then revert to 'well it's my faith/opinion'.
You can't have your cake and eat it.

Or worse, revert to epistemic relativism - such as "Well that's just your opinion" in response to objective empirical evidence and logical critique.
Of course, this assertion of "that's just opinion" is stated as FACT. Oh the contradictions!

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#16477 - 12/18/08 06:03 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Meq]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
So what do you expect me to say? I have my faith and search for explanation of things involved with it. What is it with the constant crushing of faith-based beliefs? I don't post on here so I can explain myself, I came here for discussion of whatever topics I find interesting enough.

Everybody has their own opinion. That doesn't mean everyone is right. You mentioned burden of proof but where's the proof behind your opinion? Is faith a bad thing? I can see why people on here are quick to judge, especially when the topic has anything to do with faith, but it sounds as if some of you on this forum are purposely trying to crush my beliefs and totally disregard them as bullshit.

Just because the majority of people think one way doesn't mean it's "right". My original post was based on the possibility that certain aspects of intelligent design could at least be considered plausible. You said yourself there is a chance my beliefs are true, as small of a chance that is. Again, my beliefs aren't based fully on faith. Although it may not seem this way, I actually do try to aproach my faith from a scientific stand point, asking myself somewhere along the lines of "well what if there was this that caused that and then that caused this concluding this". I've been told over and over again to question everything. Is it impossible to have faith yet search for answers to your unanswered questions about your faith? Bullshit aside, It's not like I woke up one day and decided I'm going to be a Satanist...My beliefs do come from somewhere. You can't (like some) throw things like metaphysics and paranormal research straight to the bullshit pile. It's a theory, much like the big bang theory or evolution. Yes, there is the burden of proof, but can a theory ever actually be proven?
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16479 - 12/18/08 06:28 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This isn't faith Mike. It's a cocktail of pile-up-some-shit and make-it-feel-pretty-special. Faith relies on believing and people believe because religion of even a philosophy provides certain structures that cling to their brains and make it all very real and acceptable to them. What you present here is pretty hard for me to even consider faith. It's more like some construction, artificially created to feel either very special or to want to be very special.

I think it is a pile of dust and a little poking into each of its parts will make it crumble.
You put such a pile of shit together and defend it with such weak arguments that the whole thing is more a display of intellectual weakness than anything else.

D.

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#16480 - 12/18/08 06:30 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Of course theories can be proven. Theories proven become FACTS.

The theory of gravity.
The theory of flight.

These are very simplistic, since they're incontrovertible. Everyone knows that these are hard and fast facts, but there was a time that these facts were just theories. It took PROOF to change them from theories to facts... and that proof has to be something that is put to rigorous testing and the results of that testing have to be replicable. When a theory is as gossamer as one's belief on faith alone that there was a race before man who...

But as you have postulated this theory, based solely on your faith, it's up to you to provide that burden of proof. Those with a skeptical mind will always challenge you, and you, must be able to show them that there is something to your beliefs beyond what you surmise from the texts of books.

If there were indeed an "alien race" that coexisted with man and went into rebellion against another faction of that race, here on earth, where then would be the artifacts that provided the proof of that existence? Bones differing from that of indiginous human populations... a metalic object consisting of an element unavailable in the prehistory... SOMETHING.

There have been a lot of theories about an advanced race from space coming to the earth. The talking discs of Baian-Kara-Ula in China... supposedly the work of a strange race called the Dropa, found in artificially created caves; the Dogon tribesmen of Mali who claimed knowledge of an extraterrestrial race from what we now know as Sirius. The primitive tribesmen knew that Sirius was not one star, but TWO, long, long before it could be proven through astronomical measurement. These are tantalizing tidbits... but whatever the outcome of scientific inquiry, there is some element of proof that can be touched... can be measured and quantified... that gives one the sense that there is something there beyond just speculation and conjecture.

So, sure. It's hard to take a theory that totally faith based well, on faith. Anyone can come up with a theory... some sound pretty good. But Mike, "the proof is in the pudding." If you can come up with anything tangible, besides the overworked writings in the Bible, you'd have a lot better chance of at least having people take the theory semi-seriously.

But if you believe, you believe. No harm in that, so long as you don't take 900 people with you to Guyana with a crate of kool aid and cyanide.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#16481 - 12/18/08 06:40 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Jake999]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
But if you believe, you believe. No harm in that, so long as you don't take 900 people with you to Guyana with a crate of kool aid and cyanide.


Thank you. I know my personal beliefs sound a bit odd but they are my beliefs and are important to me. And I'm trying not to be rude, but I really don't appreciate the way people on this website jump onto a topic and bash you for it. It has been my experience on the older forum that because of my age (at least I think that was the reason) that I wasn't to be taken that seriously and that everyone had something to teach me. I can take criticism, but when people intentionally get on my case and bash my beliefs until the point where they expect me to cave in, it's crossing the line. And I know now people are just going to give me shit for being "over sensative" or whatever, but to be honest I really don't care. I'm not here to be pushed around, I am here to discuss and learn, and I deserve just as much respect as anyone else on this forum.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16483 - 12/18/08 06:45 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
I am here to discuss and learn, and I deserve just as much respect as anyone else on this forum.


Your opinions and beliefs will get the respect they are worth, if they are shit, they will be treated as such. If you can't handle that, too bad but such is the nature of this place. Don't demand to be hailed for nothing worth hailing.

D.

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#16484 - 12/18/08 07:05 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Mike
You mentioned burden of proof but where's the proof behind your opinion?

Which opinion do you mean?

 Originally Posted By: Mike
Is faith a bad thing?

I never said that. Read my post again.
Intellectual dishonesty is what I object to, not faith per se.
It's when a person believes things on faith (i.e. purely subjective emotion), then tries to rationalize them as if they are based on some kind of evidence or reason (such as referring to the evidence-based theory of evolution) - then flip-flops back to a 'faith' stance when questioned, before trying to back up their beliefs once more with reason.
It's inconsistent and dishonest.

 Quote:
Just because the majority of people think one way doesn't mean it's "right". My original post was based on the possibility that certain aspects of intelligent design could at least be considered plausible.

Theories such as evolution by natural selection do indeed need to be evaluated on their own empirical merits, rather than by reference to popular opinion (but if truth were democratic, the US populace' opinions would prove intelligent design).

 Quote:
I actually do try to aproach my faith from a scientific stand point, asking myself somewhere along the lines of "well what if there was this that caused that and then that caused this concluding this".

That is speculation, not science. What you have there is a HYPOTHESIS, not a theory. (And 'theory' does NOT mean 'guess').

 Quote:
It's a theory, much like the big bang theory or evolution. Yes, there is the burden of proof, but can a theory ever actually be proven

No, metaphysics is NOT a 'theory' in the way the Big Bang or evolution are. The latter are falsifiable and evidence-based. I suggest you read up on the definition of a scientific 'theory' vs a 'hypothesis'.

 Quote:
You can't (like some) throw things like metaphysics and paranormal research straight to the bullshit pile.

I think there is a place for empirical research into supposed 'paranormal' activity - provided any conclusions are kept strictly separate from 'faith', and instead rely on the same epistemology as real science. I'm all for challenging metaphysical materialism or physicalism as a dogma from a critical stance - but not to replace it with bullshit.
Of course, this runs the inherent risk of looking for things we can't explain, rather than science's role of looking for viable explanations.
Such a venture requires a partnership between philosopers and psychologists with parapsychologists, if the latter have any hope of establishing themselves as a bona fide science.


Edited by Mequa (12/18/08 07:14 PM)
Edit Reason: Metaphysical comment

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#16492 - 12/18/08 08:35 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I am here to discuss and learn, and I deserve just as much respect as anyone else on this forum.

You are quite naive if you really believe that. Naive about Satanism, Satanists, and life in general. Respect is not something you are just 'entitled' to, it is something you have to earn by way of merit.

 Quote:

Is faith a bad thing?

The second you open your mouth to try to communicate it, the answer is yes. Faith can be spread, like any good disease.The only faith that is not harmful is the faith that is kept to yourself, and even that is self-deceptive.

It is harmful in that epistemology must be completely abandoned to embrace it. Epistemology is the human study of what can be known and the ways that they can be known, and that is where science comes in. Science, of course, is, is a modification of the Latin word for knowledge or knowing. Science is technically the sum total of REAL human knowledge, and the means of attaining it.

FAITH by nature masquerades as epistemology, when of course it is not. You can never know anything real through faith. Faith is harmful because the second you believe something on faith you have shut the door to any REAL knowledge. Faith is harmful because it impedes thought, research, communication and advancement. Faith is harmful because it implies stagnation. No knowledge, no science, no advancement, can ever come from faith;Yet faith replaces the very means that these things can be attained by. It is an intellectual cancer.

Like crack, or smoking, or any other personally harmful decision a person might make for themselves, I respect a persons right to have faith because it is their own mind, to do with as they will.Just don't bring that shit around me and expect to be respected or even tolerated.
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#16494 - 12/18/08 09:22 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Well, I think I've learned my lesson. I still have my faith, and as you and many others would probably suggest, it is best to keep it to myself. I just hope this whole discussion doesn't come bite me in the ass in other threads that come to religion...Hahah

And, at the risk of sounding sarcastic, thanks everyone.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16529 - 12/19/08 02:03 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Hey Mikey,
Have you looked into Sciencetology?

There is nothing wrong with evolving your thoughts and beliefs, but as Dan and Diavolo mentioned when you just take things on "Faith" you limit your own minds understanding and possibilities.

Dude, find what makes you happy, just dont expect others to follow you or really understand you.

Its called a solitary path for a reason.



Morg


Just remember to have fun along the way....




Edited by Morgan (12/19/08 02:06 PM)
Edit Reason: bad grammer
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#16531 - 12/19/08 03:34 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Morgan]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I've never looked into Scientology, yet I have heard some things about it. My whole "hypothesis" on the Satan/Jehova/Angels subject having to do with separate races (from this world or another) was really just a stab in the dark, trying to bring at least some reasoning to my beliefs. I consider it a possibility, but I don't actually believe Satan is an "alien"...If I remember correctly, that was the belief behind the Joy of Satan's teachings...Not something I would really want to associate myself with to be honest.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16540 - 12/19/08 08:20 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If not an alien then what? some sort of magical metaphysical entity?

Why?

I can only blame this level of sillyness on your age, or some unknown to me motivation to continue on a path obviously not fueled by reason or logic.

I KNOW you are intelligent. THINK!
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#16544 - 12/19/08 08:54 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Perhaps...

And you can't blame it on my age...How many christians do you know that are older than 15? It is a faith based beleif system. Whether or not you consider it silly is your opinion.

And am I any less intelligent for having faith? Thank you for the compliment, but at the same time your words are somewhat offending.

Will I change my mind in the future? I don't know. And obvious to you may not be to some...Sure it sounds crazy, but just because you don't follow the same path as I do doesn't mean it's the wrong path. And as Morgan said, there's a reason it's a solitary path. I have to figure out things on my own.

Right now we can only agree to disagree...If you're done trying to change my mind that is, which doesn't bother me. It's the constant bashing of my beliefs and comments on things such as my age. When I first came to this forum I was 13. Not only was I 13, but I was a Christian, searching for answers. Between then and now, I have looked into many different beliefs. I even considered myself to be a modern Satanist for a period of time, but then something happened and my beliefs changed. I'm not saying I will believe what I do forever, maybe something else will happen that would make me reconsider things. As many people have told me, I need to continue on my path, an endless path in my opinion.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16545 - 12/19/08 08:58 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
If you're done trying to change my mind that is


Nope. not yet.

 Quote:

Thank you for the compliment, but at the same time your words are somewhat offending.

I realize that.

They are actually kind words. I think you already have tools way beyond what many will ever have. I just think you need time to learn to use them ;\)
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#16546 - 12/19/08 09:15 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Ah, good analogy.
And again, thank you for the compliments. Just too bad is was buried under all the bashings.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16564 - 12/20/08 03:19 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
"We", "Wii?", are speaking with, if memory serves correct, and the age of this individual certainly does fit... to "Mike of the Fire".

At least, I believe this is the latest incarnation of "Mike of the Fire" - bible school dropout... "go back to high-school..." Sorry Mike, that's a joke that you need to get, and I suggest watching "Grease", as a primer.

And... although I'm really just fucking with you, and I honestly mean no harm, you've still got this "Theistic" thing going on, which can honestly be a trap, especially for the young. You see, you have a(n) unique opportunity here, to become something you never quite imagined... but maybe, just maybe, you "woke up" too soon. Nothing wrong with that, and I'm almost envious, but you may be just getting off that yellow-brick road and heading straight for the rabbit-hole (shit, I need to start reading to my kids again...).

Actually, that's a good starting place: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland... I've started reading it too, I think I'm about half-through. It's easy enough to read, but not easy to think-through (implications)... hell, it's on Crowley's recommended reading list, as I remember.

Anyway, I meant, you're so young... don't be going all weird... plenty of time for that. Read Alice... and maybe someday when you're 30 or 40, read it again... nothing is what it is, when you think it is.... or at least that's what the mushroom said to me.

Sorry, should have been a PM - forgive ye Mods of greatness. ?
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#16572 - 12/20/08 05:35 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I blame it on your age Mike. You might disagree with it but I still see the same Christian kid that stumbled in here two years ago. You might have partially dropped the Christian lore but all the fundamental flaws in thinking and the whole need for mystical bullshit are still governing your thinking. It's a different movie you are directing but the story-line is identical.
There are a lot of people out there that think Satanism depends on nothing but adding the goat, devil and demon into their arguments, glorify them and they're on the right path. The LHP doesn't depend on imagery. I see someone still walking the RHP without realizing it. The imagery fools you to think you are on the right track but the content points into another direction.

It doesn't even have anything to do with smart. I know people that are much and much smarter than me that are very dumb at some levels. It's a matter of insight and understanding and that got more to do with reaching a critical point in your thinking than with being smart to begin with. You are nowhere that critical point at the moment.

Do with it what you want.

D.

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#16574 - 12/20/08 05:48 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Well, exactly...

I was making a grand attempt at being "nice", and then Diavolo just goes and blows the whole thing to bits.

But if you stick around you'll find that he's... exactly the same way, pretty much all the time...

But in this case... he's actually being very nice. This is like "nice Diavolo, oooohhh, prettty little Diavolo", scratch him on the tummy kinda nice, so listen up, 'cause it don't get much better than this.

Sooner or later he's going to bite you (and me for posting this, among other reasons) on your sorry ass. Good luck man, I'm already doomed, save yourself!!!!
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#16576 - 12/20/08 06:34 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: daevid777]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Well, daevid777 and Diavolo, let take Mike his time. He slowely is becoming LHP and is starting to realize what true Satanism actually is. He made already the huge step for putting on the label "theistic inspired satanist". I give it a few more years and he will ignore all the theistic bullshit and he shall have the more pure essence of this philosophy.

I had the same experience, I came into contact with Satanism on the age of 13. I hated it because I had the wrong information before me. Also preconceptions had feared me about this philosophy (wich actually was christian bullshit). But fueled by interest I stepped out of my bubble and read some works of Lavey. It was then I began to realize that Paganism and other faith-based religions actually are hollow spheres. It took me just 2 years to "convert". And another year by becoming active within Satanic "communities". Mike is almost going trough the same proces, maybe on a bit different way, but within some time his ideas will change.
My "evolution" hasn't come to an end yet, it's still changing. Just like other people. Untill I die..

"Takes a choclat cigarette and puts it in his mouth". Maybe within a few years that'll be a big Havana Cigar.. For now, I'll enjoy it.


Edited by Dimitri (12/20/08 06:35 AM)
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#16579 - 12/20/08 08:58 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dimitri]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Mike is almost going trough the same proces, maybe on a bit different way, but within some time his ideas will change.


Yet who's to say exactly what my ideas will change to?

And D, it's not so much an age thing that it is an experience thing. The more I see or read or hear, the more I will pick up. Sure this comes with age, but it's not restricted to people with a few more years under their belt. Some that are my age or younger could find or realize whatever it is you feel I will.

And how many irrational faith based thinking christians do you know that are older than 15? Age isn't everything...You could just as easily find someone in their 40's who believes in the bible or believe what I do. What can you blame their stupidity on?

I need to follow my own path. People can help me on my way but what it really comes down to is that all the answers I will receive will come from within myself. I am starting to see where some of your (and many other people on this site's) views are coming from, however if I just decide to change my beliefs so abruptly I will have accomplished nothing. As time goes on I know my opinions will change, but who's to say what direction I will head toward? It is up to me to decide what is right and wrong, what is real and what is not. Everything comes from within, and seeing as how Satan as my god exists only within my mind, he is a part of me and therefore I AM Satan, I am my god. This much I understand, and is what I mean when I referred to him and god as "real to me". It is all part of my own reality. The passages of the OT I find a liking to are passages that can be taken in either a literal or symbolic sense, such as god creating heaven and earth. This can refer to the fact that by nature I was born into this world, however discovering other aspects about my existence that are aside from nature are the work of the adversary within me, meaning by questioning my existence I am becoming Satan, until I can one day become one with him in the sense that I am fully enlightened and have become my own god. Although I understand this as I mentioned, I do not think I am quite there yet, as some here have helped me to realize. It all takes time, and I have a lot more thinking to do on the topic. And only through myself can I find my answers.


Edited by Mike (12/20/08 09:10 AM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16580 - 12/20/08 09:25 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Yet who's to say exactly what my ideas will change to?
I don't know what your ideas will change to. The only thing I'm quite certain about; is that if you stick here long enough your views will change more to laveyan philosophy and less to theistic-inspired ideology.

 Quote:
And how many irrational faith based thinking christians do you know that are older than 15? Age isn't everything...You could just as easily find someone in their 40's who believes in the bible or believe what I do.

I wasn't judging on your age, I judge no one on their age. Hell you could be as old as me.. I'm only 19 or so. It is not that someone older is more wiser. But to me it is a fact that from a certain point when you start learning about a philosophy you will unconsiously put some aspects of it within practise in your real life. You can disagree with me for now, but I'm quite sure that within a couple of years looking back at my comment you'll laugh and actually say I was taking it at the right end. Unlikely for my rather young age, I already know how most people will react in certain situations. How I know? Read and observe hiding within shadows of others has it's advantages and in the end you can outshine them.

 Quote:
I need to follow my own path. People can help me on my way but what it really comes down to is that all the answers I will receive will come from within myself.

That's what I call a REAL satanic answer.

 Quote:
And D,

I'd like to stress out: I'm not a rapping negro. My name is Dimitri with capital D. Not "D". Not to cause you harm or so. I just want to point that part out.
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#16581 - 12/20/08 09:42 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In your case I consider it an age thing. I saw you construct four different belief-systems before my absence and now you have a next one and in all of them, I do see the same fundamental flaws and only a difference in how the package is wrapped. It's what I imply with reaching or not reaching a critical point in thinking. At your age, you are obsessed with the wrapping of a package and give it too much value. At one point, if you'll get there, you'll realize that the wrapping is rather irrelevant and that the content is what it is all about. All the explanations about metaphores, literal and symbolic meanings are nice and well but they don't hide a fundamental need. It's this need I call the flaw, the critical weakness in whatever philosophy or religion is constructed upon it. You can smash the house of god and erect a temple of satan but if you start putting your bricks on the previous foundation, the building will only appear different.

The direction of the path isn't as much decided by oneself as it is an unavoidable direction. One can stuff so much knowledge in a rabbit, it starts to resemble an elephant but it might still eat carrots. Why are there biologists out there, with all their knowledge about nature and science, whom still cling to some belief system which can't be called else but weak or stupid? The critical point. Their brain never reached that critical point, either because it isn't capable of doing so, or they are too weak to do so. Choice has very little to do with it. And we're back at the old but valid; "satanists are born, not made" line. Not even a person can turn himself into a satanist. One is or one isn't. If one can reach the critical point or not defines what one is.

You're still young, you got time and time will tell. Knowledge might be handy, experience for sure but if or if not you'll get that neural click is beyond your control. As it was with all of us.

D.

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#16582 - 12/20/08 10:20 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Dimitri]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Oh, sorry, I was referring to Diavolo as "D". Hahah

Diavolo: All I can do at this point is listen to everyone's advice and try to use it. And I do understand what you mean by your analogies, yet it is the wrapping that will lead me to the content. And if we are born as satanists and cannot choose our path, and things just seem to fall into place, wouldn't you consider that "fate"? If I am my own god, aren't I in control of my life, as opposed to having my path already laid out for me, waiting for me to walk through it? I chose which path to take. And it isn't necessarily a straight path. There are twists and turns, road blocks, and some construction going on as well. I may loose my way at times, but in the end it will all take me to the same place, whatever that may be.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16583 - 12/20/08 10:46 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Oh, sorry, I was referring to Diavolo as "D". Hahah

In that case my apologies. Now you mention it, Diavolo indeed ends his messages with "D"


Edited by Dimitri (12/20/08 10:46 AM)
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#16584 - 12/20/08 10:52 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Yeah, I'm the rapping negro.

It isn't as much about fate. Fate triggers too much fatalism into people, I don't like the word too much. Before you know we all sit in a chair waiting what the gods bring us.
We prefer control, although a healthy degree of fatalism isn't bad. A statement like satanists are born... is only valid if you accept that there are things beyond your control. You have very little say about your genetic make-up, as with the conditions you are born into. There is also little control about the mutations that defined you as you are. Being our own god doesn't imply some irrational perspective on things like being able to be whatever we want to be or do whatever we want to do. I'm never going to be an astronaut and certainly will never run the 100m below 8 seconds, no matter how hard I might wish for it or train.

Being your own god essentially implies that you are the controlling force in your life but it doesn't imply you have no limitations. You have, and some of them you will never change. What is our drive is that we explore those limitations, define them and analyse which and which not can be pushed beyond their current limits. Some are rock-solid and you'll have to live with them, some are flexible and can be improved.

One of those limitations can be a decisive factor in what we can be and what not. The critical point I talk about is subject to those limitations.

D.

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#16585 - 12/20/08 11:06 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Diavolo]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
A statement like satanists are born... is only valid if you accept that there are things beyond your control. You have very little say about your genetic make-up, as with the conditions you are born into. There is also little control about the mutations that defined you as you are. Being our own god doesn't imply some irrational perspective on things like being able to be whatever we want to be or do whatever we want to do.


Things like genetic make-up yes are beyond our control (although there are such things as genetic engineering), but how does that effect what path we will walk? Are you referring to the fact that genetic make-up can also determine your brain development and thus level of intelligence? If so, I see what you are saying. Certain conditions can alter your perception of things. I would know...But I'd rather not go there as of right now.

Just because you have the tools doesn't mean you can build the shed. You need to learn how over time. And if you end up building a dog house instead, you still did achieve the goal of building something, and the tools didn't go to waste.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#16589 - 12/20/08 03:07 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Just because you have the tools doesn't mean you can build the shed. You need to learn how over time. And if you end up building a dog house instead, you still did achieve the goal of building something, and the tools didn't go to waste."

You still failed.
You did not create what you set out to do (shed).


"however if I just decide to change my beliefs so abruptly I will have accomplished nothing."

If you change your mind due to something new you learned or made more sense, then you have accomplished something.

Staying in the same place because you need a longer "time frame"
is silly.

Morg

whatever, do as you will....
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#16591 - 12/20/08 03:25 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Morgan]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
You still failed.
You did not create what you set out to do (shed).


What I meant was that even though I set out to come to one conclusion, I may change my mind along my path and reach something different that I had no idea I could reach, which is always a good thing. I may end up feeling more comfortable in the dog house than in the shed (bad analogy, I know).

 Quote:
If you change your mind due to something new you learned or made more sense, then you have accomplished something.


Yes, but you can't jump to conclusions too quickly...You still have to question everything first, even if it makes more sense than something you believe in.

 Quote:
Staying in the same place because you need a longer "time frame" is silly.


I never said I needed a longer time frame. I meant it will take time for me to come to my final conclusion. In my eyes the path you choose is endless, for there is always more to learn.


Edited by Mike (12/20/08 03:28 PM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#33138 - 12/22/09 11:34 AM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: Mike]
mind8mind Offline
lurker


Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2
I also believe in the Lord of Darkness.
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#33141 - 12/22/09 03:05 PM Re: "The Diabolicon" [Re: mind8mind]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
member


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
...read the rules before posting again mudmind - consider this your one and only warning.

M.'.T.'.
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