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#1631 - 11/09/07 02:33 PM Sicko
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I just finished watching the Michael Moore documentary Sicko. Iím a Canadian so the rules that govern the American health care system obviously donít have any effect on my day to day life. Iíve heard horror stories of the American health care system long before this film came out, specifically from having an aunt that lives in Nevada whose son fell on the pavement and cracked his skull open. The cost of the surgery was enough to force her and her husband to both take on second jobs. I wouldnít doubt that certain facts were omitted from the film and that not every facet of such a broad subject matter could be covered in such a brief time span, so Iím wondering what other peopleís opinion on the content and accuracy of this film were, specifically those living within the American health care system.

Michael Moore really made it sound like the large insurance corporations are putting dollar values on peopleís lives, and their body parts. Regular, every day people are dying because these corporations are constantly looking for ways to cut costs and employees are actually being rewarded on the basis of how many people they screw over. Is the current state of the human condition really so low that sheer greed overpowers basic, common sense decency? Even from a Satanic point of view, as individuals we certainly have more respect for the intellectually superior, but making money at the expense of childrenís lives (and parents and siblings) is nothing but a sign of pure cowardice, and in this sense the money being made has little to do with intellectual superiority and more to do with oneís willingness to resign their own humanity to make a quick dollar.

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#1633 - 11/09/07 02:52 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Is the current state of the human condition really so low that sheer greed overpowers basic, common sense decency?"

Yes. Its all about the benjamins, and making a profit at the expense of others.

I work in the medical field, currently medicaid & most insurance companies for example only reinburse you about .40(cents) for each blood draw. A single blood draw by our visiting nurse to a patients home costs more than 40 cents. So either the patient pays the full cost out of pocket, or doesn't get the blood work done. The doctor doesn't really care because most do not do house calls anymore. We still do this work for some patients anyway at a loss becuase its the right thing to do.

"...oneís willingness to resign their own humanity to make a quick dollar."

Larger Corporations do not have a sense of humanity because humanity does not pay their stockholders or CEO salaries. Smaller companies who still know their stockholders/employees by name sometimes can manage to retain their humanity.

I am actually kinda glad that I work for one of those.

Morgan
_________________________
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#1635 - 11/09/07 04:31 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
undeadridinghood Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Washington State
I haven't had any serious injuries, so I'm pretty lucky. I know that my exboyfriend's mother died of cancer because she was a smoker and they weren't willing to treat her properly. Just the cost of comfort and morphine put her husband into debt. She had a brain tumor, so it's kind of stupid what they pulled. The medical bills they had to endure made it impossible for them to pay a lawyer if they sued, which they could.

Also, I have Tricare, which is the health insurance given to the military. Many doctors and psychologists/psychiatrists won't accept it, so we've had to run around from office to office just to get simple medical treatment. Now we have to go to the same medical center that covers people on Medicaid and the uninsured instead of getting a more specialized kind of care. I don't trust a general practitioner when it comes to psych meds, so it's kind of frustrating. And the copays are horrendous. It basically means that you have to figure out what's wrong with you using books and the internet even before you go to the doctor. I've found that if you don't already have a diagnosis in mind, they'll just take a quick look at you and say you're fine, then go to the next person because there are so many people waiting and they're always running behind. I live in a pretty small town, so I can only imagine how difficult it would be to get proper care in a city.

Our other option is to drive an hour to the military hospital and specialists. Their billing system is strange, and it seems like every time we go we wind up with extra hidden bills in the several hundred dollar range coming a month or two later. My dad had knee replacement surgery basically because the bone in his knee died, and that was done in town. Then they told him after that he'd have to DRIVE an hour to the military hospital for physical therapy. He couldn't do it because of the pain of sitting in a car for that long, plus we were so busy that we couldn't drive him there and back plus the length of the session, so now he has very little function in that knee. His leg is stiff, he walks with a limp, and the pain is still there. He's a pretty busy guy who likes to collect things on the beach, carve wooden sculpture, and he teaches at an alternative highschool. All of these things he's had to cut down on or slow down on.


Edited by undeadridinghood (11/09/07 04:38 PM)

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#1691 - 11/10/07 04:53 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
The current state of health care in the West needs it's own thread in the Politics forum.

As for Moore's movie, it is just more of the same. "America is bad" got it, now move on to something else. I really wish that people like Moore and rest of the rich Hollywood retards would just move to Cuba which is evidentally one of the best places on Earth.

Moore knows as much about medicine, as he knows about guns, as he knows about the auto industry. All of his 'documentaries' have the same problem - the ending is determined before the shooting starts. He is documenting nothing. He is simply re-enforcing he conclusions with pictures. In some circles that is called propaganda.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#1692 - 11/10/07 05:01 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
All of his 'documentaries' have the same problem - the ending is determined before the shooting starts. He is documenting nothing. He is simply re-enforcing he conclusions with pictures. In some circles that is called propaganda.


I agree with your analysis, but I think that Moore has said as much himself; although there are leftists who view what he has to say as gospel Moore himself hasn't shied away from the fact that his "documentaries" are not representative of objective journalism.

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#1726 - 11/10/07 09:57 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I see your point of view regarding the perspective that many documentaries out there are just reinforcing one point of view with pictures or with facts that have already been stated. But this day in age, how much can you really say that hasnít been said before? Arenít journalists and news reporters doing the same thing on a daily basis? Iíve worked as a photojournalist for a newspaper, and you wouldnít believe the extent to which your words are edited, regardless of whether or not you are stating the truth. The way my editor explained it to me, the newspapers make most of their money from companies that pay for advertising space. Most of those companies are conservative and conservative people donít want to hear about things that may offend their sensibilities, regardless of whether or not it is completely true (case in point, my articles focused around hypocrisy and corruption in the police force, the illogic of criminalizing medical marijuana when alcohol and tobacco laced with man-made chemicals were legal, and even some issues with the Catholic church and misperception of modern day Satanism). Bottom line: Donít piss off the corporations, they give us money and make us rich.

So after bearing witness to this sort of trend, I think Iíd rather hear the perspective of someone who isnít being censored or taking hush money from the financially elite. Isnít the point of any documentary to make you think, to give you a new perspective and on issue that already exists, and allow individuals to exercise their right to free speech and their own point of view? And if you can make money in the process, good for you. Correct me if Iím wrong, but I donít think Moore started off as some rich kid living in Hollywood. I enjoy a fresh perspective, and as a Canadian much of what Moore brought up I was not previously aware of and they werenít all things that fell into the realm of ďAmerica is badĒ because he certainly touched on the lifestyles of other nations. The danger behind what you watch on television or film in any era is taking the information you derive as gospel and not having enough common sense to question it and form your own educated opinion on the matter.

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#1728 - 11/10/07 10:28 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
In the US, the mainstream media is run by people who are leftist liberals. The US as a general rule is center right. Newspapers are losing circulation and have been forced to make a lot of cut backs. Most of the network news outlets are getting killed by Fox News that offers a more center right point of view.

For us in the US, Moore is just more of the same from the Hollywood left.

For what it's worth, Moore was born to a middle class family in Flint Michigan (home of General Motors). His first movie "Roger and Me" was about how GM owed him a job. All the same, from his own personal hard work, initiative, and American ingenuity he has become a millionaire.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#1750 - 11/11/07 03:02 PM Re: Sicko [Re: undeadridinghood]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I had actually given a great deal of thought to moving to California over the past couple of years, but the most significant deciding factor I found myself having against it was the health care system in the United States. I donít think I could comfortably make the transition from a free health care system to likely having to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket. That and the higher crime rate did make me feel a bit uncomfortableÖ

Iím wondering what would prevent mental health practitioners in the US from accepting military insurance? Itís just my personal opinion, but I would think that soldiers that have come back from overseas and witnessed some seriously traumatic and life-altering events would need that sort of treatment more than anyone, as well as their families having to cope with the stress of it. Iíve dealt with Post-traumatic Stress Disorder most of my life and know what sort of living hell it can be to cope with. Anyone having first-hand, extensive experience to war will likely deal with some form of PTSD and I know that some very credible people have anticipated that the two largest demand increases in the field of health and wellness over the coming years will be in PTSD and those trained to deal with the care of the elderly. I donít know the reason for it, but it seems a bit unnerving that any psychologist or psychiatrist would turn away those who are insured through the military.

My father is also in a similar situation to yours. He was nearly killed in a car accident three and a half months ago and shattered his left femur (upper leg bone) in four places and had to have a metal rod inserted and the bone reconstructed around it. He also sustained several breaks to his right arm and is now dealing with nerve damage because of the surgery that was necessary to repair it. He actually went to stay in a specialized rehabilitation facility for awhile, and from what he told me it was a complete joke and he couldnít stand being there. Basically the exercises they were giving him to do he could do by himself at home, and he found the environment more depressing than anything.

So from my personal experience, if I could give you some advice regarding what your father is going through it would be to collect information from the physical therapist he would otherwise be seeing and find out what kind of exercises he should be doing. If heís dealing with something similar to my father, chances are they are things he can do at home in a more comfortable environment. There are also a lot of natural remedies out there to help deal with inflammation, joint pain and bone deterioration that western medicine completely ignores. It may just be a blessing in disguise that your father isnít being forced to deal with hours of sitting in a car, unnecessary fuel expenses and paying to have someone tell him to do things that he could just as easily do on his own more comfortably and with less stress surrounding the situation.

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#1756 - 11/11/07 04:00 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Not everyone has to pay so much money out of pocket here in the US if they have health insurance...it all depends on what insurance you have. There's Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, and just hundreds more that are offered to people via their employers.

In my case, every October, we have a representative pay us a visit from Aetna to set up new health care policies or make revisions to existing ones. There are "tiers" in Aetna, depending on what kind of coverage you want and how much out of pocket you want to pay.

I have an HMO plan, and I pay about $20/wk for my policy. Because I have such a low premium, I pay a little more for my doctor's visits. Years ago, I opted to have a higher premium deducted from my paycheck, but my doctor's visits were only $20. For a regular doctor's visit now, I pay $40. Expensive? Yes, but I don't go to the doctor's but two-four times a year. Specialist visits (urologists, podiatrists, OB/GYN, etc) cost $50 per visit. Being admitted into the ER at the hospital costs me a flat $100. No matter what tests, surgeries or whatever are performed, Aetna will cover it. Now, for hospital stays, I have to pay 30% of the total bill, which is usually mailed to me a few weeks later. Luckily, I haven't had to stay overnight at the hospital for anything, just an occasional visit to the ER, so I haven't been slapped with any outrageous bills. But, when you get billed for that sort of thing, you don't have to pay the full amount, you're allowed to make payments.

I also have Aflac (cue the stupid duck--af-LAAAAAC!), which reimburses me for lost time at work, up to a certain amount.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#1767 - 11/11/07 06:38 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
ballbreaker Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
the most significant deciding factor I found myself having against it was the health care system in the United States. I donít think I could comfortably make the transition from a free health care system to likely having to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket.


Are we living in the same country? The health care isn't free for me...are you dodging your tax collector or what?

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#1773 - 11/11/07 09:09 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
undeadridinghood Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Washington State
 Originally Posted By: Tala de Sade
Iím wondering what would prevent mental health practitioners in the US from accepting military insurance? Itís just my personal opinion, but I would think that soldiers that have come back from overseas and witnessed some seriously traumatic and life-altering events would need that sort of treatment more than anyone, as well as their families having to cope with the stress of it.


This is just from personal experience and what my parents explained to me when I was younger and we had to stop seeing the family doctor I'd been with for most of my childhood.

Nearly everyone in the medical field is in it for money. Certain insurance companies, such as military insurance, are only willing to pay a certain amount for the treatment. Medical people who expect good pay, not out of greed, just out of cost of living and the fact that if they're good, they deserve more money, won't take the insurance. I suppose we could still see them, but the fees would be outrageous and come out of pocket.

The annoying thing is that offices change which insurances they'll accept. We were with a particular office for years until they decided to no longer accept our insurance.

We've had other insurance coverage when my dad had different jobs, but now my dad is a non union teacher. I think they have the option of some sort of coverage, but it's not even as good as what we have now. We had Blue Shield for a while when my dad worked for the city Public Works, but they downsized his job so we lost the insurance.

I hate that the government expects people to get health care from their employers. It's as unreliable as job security itself, which isn't very good, at least looking at my dad's experiences.

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#1795 - 11/12/07 10:05 AM Re: Sicko [Re: undeadridinghood]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Again, health care really needs it's own thread in the Politics Forum because it is not the simple issue that the simple minded Moore tries to simplistically explain.

Supply and demand will never go away. It is as fundamental a law as is the law of gravity. The cost of health care in the US his high because it is not subject to normal market forces. The patient never really pays the bill. The bill is paid for him by the insurance company or Medicare. The doctors and hospitals have an economic interest in charging as much as they can to insurance company or to the govt. As a result, the price of health care shoots up because there is no pricing competition. If you look at elective medicine like plastic surgery, the pricing is much more competitive because people will shop around and will not pay for things they do not need. The same is true for procedures like Lasik and PRK. Most insurance companies will not pay for this so these procedures are subject to market forces and are affordable.

In Western countries where health care is provided by the govt, supply and demand still applies. The supply finite and the demand is nearly infinite, you cannot raise prices and simply bill someone else, so, you have rationing. This is why in Canada and the UK people die in the que waiting for their ration. And, you are still paying for this! What do you think they do with all of that tax money?

There is no free lunch.

The best we could do in the US is get the govt completely out of medicine. Give everyone a tax free medical savings account, have 'loser pays' tort reform like in the UK, and allow the free market to decide what health care is 'worth.'
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#1812 - 11/12/07 06:22 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
Baphomit666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Taunton-Mass-USA
I agree Fist. In the US for people without/unnable to get healthcare the cost is just too high and prescriptions can not be attained for those who may really need them. I'm not saying that i think it should be free, but it should be up to the market not the govt like you stated.

When me and my ex started dating she had no healthcare at all. In the US it is technically illegal to not have any insurance. She was not making enough to pay for the whole thing herself and was afforded no help from the place she was employed. She could not get Mass Health (the free healthcare in our state, for those who may not know) because she made just over the limit yearly for it. She got sick and couldn't get any prescribed medicine for her ailment because if she had she would have had to pay 80$ PER PILL for whatever the prescription was.

What i don't undestand is that the govt controlls it and tells us we have to have it, but will only give it to those who meet the pre-recs and those who are fortunate enough to work for a company willing to help out can afford it. What are the people who are in the middle supposed to do? The funny thing is that unplanned pregnancies and welfare mothers/families are an issue also, but this does not surprise me due to the fact that she was unnexpectedly impregnated. When she wen't to the doctor to find out for sure she got a written note validating her pregnancy and she wen't back to Mass Health and had health insurance the minute she walked out.

I have nothing against people who need help sometimes by any means. All i am saying is that if the govt is going to do things this way people are going to take advantage of it. BUT this is like telling the people that don't have to use it that it is OK to just get pregnant and live on everyone elses taxes which completes the circle by raising the taxes on things in this field and making it harder for others to do thus increasing the problem. Plus i think it makes some people that struggle and work thier asses off day in and out jealouse of those who live on wellfare, and become bitter to the working class and possibly, ultimately, become like those who just mooch cause it is easier and it is there.

P.S. I am not taking pot shots at people on wellfare as long as it is a for a credible reason. It's just that i have an aunt that can't even take care of herself and yet has 7 kids with 4 already taken by DSS. She lives on wellfare and has another kid about every 4-5 years so she doesn't have to work. She even conned a church into paying her way so she could spend her wellfare money on watever she wanted too, rather than her bills which the church now pays 75% of. So i get heated talking about things related. I did not meen to offend anyone, and appologize in advance if i have.


Edited by Baphomit666 (11/12/07 06:24 PM)
_________________________
~~Baphomit666~~
"In night i see the real, concealed by days blinding lie"

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#1816 - 11/12/07 06:30 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Baphomit, I'm 100% with you about people leeching off the welfare system. No need to apologize...women popping out children who will be taken from them a few years later, or potheads claiming disability so they don't have to work. It's bullshit.

Welfare is for people who are genuinely hard on luck, but was only ever intended as a temporary solution. Sad to see, that people are structuring their lives AROUND the welfare system, in order to keep benefiting from it.

I work for my nice things, and it's the most aggravating thing to see people take a free ride on my tax dollars, then have the nerve to bitch about not getting special treatment. Makes me want to gun them all down and take the burden off the system. Free that money up for people who really need it.
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#1854 - 11/13/07 02:19 PM Re: Sicko [Re: ballbreaker]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I also live in Ontario, just a few hours away from where you are. I was born here, Iíve had an OHIP card all my life (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) which is provided freely to any Canadian citizen living here. That being said, I donít see the relevance to your question of whether or not I am dodging the tax collector, which Iím obviously not. With your OHIP card, you take it to reception any time you go to see a doctor or the hospital ER, they take down your information and youíre not billed a cent.

Obviously elective medical issues like cosmetic surgery, seeing a hypnotherapist, acupuncture and alternative health care treatments arenít covered by the government. But seeing a physician, psychologist, psychiatrist, neurologist and any other sort of specialist is free. Surgery is free as long as it isnít cosmetic. You pay for your own medication unless you have a drug plan. In the United States insurance is governed by private companies and what type of plan you have with them determines what you pay. In Canada (speaking as someone who was born a Canadian citizen) doctorís visits and any medically necessary treatments are covered by the government.

Yes, our tax dollars go toward paying the highly trained professionals of the health care industry. I understand what you mean when you say it isnít ďfreeĒ but the comparison I was making was toward the way it is administered in the United States versus the way it is administered in Canada, France and the United Kingdom as Michael Moore had documented in Sicko. Americans pay taxes too, the percentage of which varies on a state to state basis as far as I know, but their tax dollars certainly arenít going towards their health care.

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#1856 - 11/13/07 02:54 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I think it was something Michael Moore touched on when he did Bowling for Columbine that people on welfare in the United States are obligated to participate in some sort of ďwork to earnĒ program. It was the story about the African American boy in Flint, Michigan who I believe was only in the first grade and brought a gun to school and shot a Caucasian female classmate. When the police investigated where the boy found the gun, it came out that he was living with a relative who owned the gun as his mother was bussed off to work every day and having to participate in the ďwork to earnĒ program because she was on welfare. I havenít seen the movie for awhile, but I believe that was the general outline of the situation.

Since you brought up the mothers on welfare issue I was wondering if you could clarify whether collecting welfare in the United States means having to participate in a government-run work program? The way Moore suggested it worked was that these jobs only paid minimum wage and in areas like Flint people took these jobs because there was little other work available. I donít know a lot about the welfare system in Canada, but from what I understand anyone collecting it has to participate in a sort of job search program to prove that they are looking for work unless they are unable to work, but I donít believe there are any mandatory government dictated jobs here for those on welfare.

I think any Satanist would agree with the fact that women who center their lives around popping out babies every couple of years just to live for free should be forced to get their tubes tied. Itís something I donít think I will ever be able to comprehend. Welfare pays the bare minimum to live month to month and the mother is basically insuring their children an impoverished upbringing and a lesser chance of success in their adult lives. I donít have children, but if I did I would want them to have the best of everything I could provide. I would be putting money away for a college education, taking them on vacations when they were old enough to appreciate seeing the world and generally trying to provide a fulfilling life. Limiting a childís life to what the mother can scam from the government and any charity she can find (which would likely be happening more out of the self-serving interest of giving herself an easy life) isnít just a sick form of child abuse, itís something the law should find a way to start preventing.

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#1868 - 11/13/07 11:51 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Nemesis]
Baphomit666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Taunton-Mass-USA
Nemesis, good to know i am not the only one with the whole gunning down mind set. I think that there should be some real reform in this system in this area. I know it is hard to tell when someone is in real trouble and needs help as opposed to people who are faking, but only sometimes. I think that it is prety obvious when a single mom has a kid and as soon as it is old enough to start school, has another and get's the original taken away for something or another, that she is manipulating the system. The government should stop turning a blind eye on this serious problem and DO SOMething about it.

I have nothing against potheads either, IF, they work to support there habbit. I love to drink and on occasion i smoke, but i get up everyday and go to work for money to do so. The sheer thought that while i am working to barely get by, some lazy asshole get's a check in the mail containing my money and is better off than i am.
_________________________
~~Baphomit666~~
"In night i see the real, concealed by days blinding lie"

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#1870 - 11/14/07 12:37 AM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
perhaphs you should just become that lazy asshole then baphomit666 what is stopping you? why work when you dont have to .i dont get why if you can it with out that suffering why dont you take it
free money is always nice i was on child welfare at 16 then when i became an adult normal welfare for a few years ,i did not have to work, i got free money granted it wasnt much money but still i hate work.im all about fun most of that money i blew partying
that whole mentailty of work work work till you die is weak in my opion if i can get sompthng for free i will take it. are pot heads that sell dope considered working to you out of couristy?
just beacuse you feel you need to slave away to live.dont get angry at thouse smart enought to get money with out that annoyance of work.so beacuse you suffer for it everyone eles must suffer is the mentality? kinda silly in my views,hell even now i turned my hobby into my work so its not really work. i have probly worked at most 3 years of my life in 28 years not counting my current occupation as i dont consider that work. as for bring up a child in the enviroment thats a diffrent story.
unless they are making sick cash but usally its poverty in the situation so on that i agree people having kids to get one more check then usally losing to child services seems like child abuse to me.

( The sheer thought that while i am working to barely get by, some lazy asshole get's a check in the mail containing my money and is better off than i am.) all i see in this statment is envy.
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#1896 - 11/14/07 11:46 AM Re: Sicko [Re: rob_church]
Baphomit666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Taunton-Mass-USA
Ok rob, i understand what you are saying. As i said before thoughsome people can't get wellfare. Plus i don't feel that if i am not working someone else should have to pay for me to live. My main argument against it is the whole child abuse element to the whole thing. I don't have kids and i am not dissabled in any way so i cannot (as you stated) just be the lazy asshole. I wish i could have it that easy man.

As far as envy goes, i don't envy those who do nothing but leech off of everyone else. I suppose though since others can do it and i can't then it makes me moderately angry. But seriously what if everyone went on wellfare? Nothing would get done ever and who would pay for your wellfare then? If everyone followed this example and just took advantage then there would be no more wellfare and we would all live in poverty. I can't say that i would hate that though, because then we would all be on the same page and there would no longer be seperate sets of people with seperate ideals on how to scam the rest of them.

That said, like you, i don't work that much. I am 22 and i have had many different jobs in my life cause i don't like to work either. The difference between us is that i never, for lack of a job, ask other people for handouts because i am not so weak as to have to rely on others for my own survival.
_________________________
~~Baphomit666~~
"In night i see the real, concealed by days blinding lie"

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#1899 - 11/14/07 06:02 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
Samuel Hain Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 62
Loc: arkansas
People below a certain IQ should not be allowed to have children.This is about elitism, not racism.
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#1906 - 11/14/07 07:18 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
fair enough, i was not disabled either thought. i had a choice keep living in foster homes or live on my own at 16,befor i could leave i was assigned a worker and a check and that was it.
i was basscilly handed money,would you turn it down? when i turned 18 i was so used to getting free money why change it witch by that point i usaly bought dope and sold for a tidy profit but thats neither here nor their.the funny thing is that would never happen man,people feel guilty,feel the need to slave for thier life , so not everyone even if they could would take free money.

i personally dont live for the collective i live for me,im the most selfish perosn i know and proud of it, and what ever enrichs or makes my life better easyer and so on. at that point in my life what made my life better was a not doing shit and sell dope and partying i have absoulty no guilt aobut taking money from the facless masses to make my life better. so you dont like work either yet feel guilted by the collective into working.what you consider weak ,i consider smart, weak to me is buying into that guilt and the programing and working like a dog every day of your life till you die beacuse socitey tell you that you have to.

let me ask you a question baphomit666 if you could make the same amount that you make now while not working would you?

you only live once,to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money and enjoy your self is my idea of a successful life not working like a slave,misrable, till im 60 and then cant even enjoy it fuck that..but to each his own.

so you dont work that much by your own addmission, yet have never taken free money, how did you pay your rent when you where not working out of curosity?
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#1909 - 11/14/07 07:37 PM Re: Sicko [Re: rob_church]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
i hate work.im all about fun most of that money i blew partying
that whole mentailty of work work work till you die is weak in my opion if i can get sompthng for free i will take it.


Your kidding right?

You are the object lesson as to why people argue against social safety nets.

Remember, the cheese in the trap is always free. A govt that can give you everything you want is usually in a position to take everything you have.

Personally, I like to live above the poverty line - way above it! So, I work. Fortunately, I do work that I find interesting. I don't feel like I am 'slaving' I feel like I am living. One of the tenets of Satanism is to live a 'vital existence.' Sitting around a crappy apartment, half stoned all the time, waiting for the govt to send you a check is NOT living a vital existence.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#1911 - 11/14/07 08:05 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
to each his own.. i view a vital existance to be what ever makes my life better easyer or enjoyable what ever makes me happy to be alive and as i stated at that point in my life that was to hang out indulge my self relax and sell dope.

ahh but it was me taking what i wanted form the goverment, i was not disabled i could easly have found work,i choose insted to manipulate the system to my advantage, i find it funny how manipulation and being able to turn somtphing to your advantage is exalted among satanist's until its happing to them or money coming out of their pocket, then its the great evil lol
manipulation is manipluation, making you life easyer be it on your boss,or your country.


and yes i have used my talent to make my hobby my occupation as well
so i dont consider that work either:)
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#1913 - 11/14/07 09:05 PM Re: Sicko [Re: rob_church]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
...until its happing to them or money coming out of their pocket,...


And it is this reason that govt should NOT be in the business of subsidising other people's existence.

By any objective sense you live like a bum. You have blunted your sense of vitality. When was the last time you had a fine meal that did not come out of a paper sack?

I firmly believe that marijuana has become the "Soma" that Aldous Huxley warned about.

From the Wikipedia entry for "Brave New World" -

"The world the novel describes is a utopia, albeit an ironic one: humanity is carefree, healthy and technologically advanced. Warfare and poverty have been eliminated and everyone is permanently happy due to government-provided stimulation. The irony is that all of these things have been achieved by eliminating many things that humans consider to be central to their identity ó family, culture, art, literature, science, religion, and philosophy. It is also a hedonistic society, deriving pleasure from promiscuous sex and drug use, especially the use of soma, a powerful drug taken to escape pain and bad memories through hallucinatory fantasies. Additionally, stability has been achieved and is maintained via deliberately engineered and rigidly enforced social stratification."

Sound familiar?...
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#1914 - 11/14/07 09:25 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
lol you seem to think im poor,last meal i had was at wok with chan wonderful chinese, food nice eviroment and ginger beef to die for,even back then i was not poor, took that money and bought drugs and turned a profit ,a bum is begging for money no home,i am far from that even now im talented ,sexy ,have a gourgus wife ,2 cats a great life,for some reason fist you equate thouse that are smart enought to make joe blow work for me in esscnce, as having a dulled view of vitality. does work = living to you? if so in my opion that is sad.

fuck utopia i live for me not for the collective i am only here once and i will make the most of of my life here no matter how many facless robots,fools, or thosue brainwashed into beliving sociteys bullshit that i have to trample to do that.
but as i said to each his own.
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#1917 - 11/15/07 12:25 AM Re: Sicko [Re: rob_church]
Baphomit666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Taunton-Mass-USA
Rob i will say that if someone handed me money and said "here this is for you", i would probably take it. The thing is i would not keep returning to suckle from the same teet. I don't work because i feel guilty, but because for me to be happy i need to be doing something productive.

I agree with fist in that living a "vital existance" is more important than just living. Working does not = living to me. It simply gives a sense that i am bettering what i consider to be a life that should be lived to get the "most out of". Rather than making the most out of what people will give you.

P.S. hey fist how do you put the quotes in the quote boxes in your posts?
_________________________
~~Baphomit666~~
"In night i see the real, concealed by days blinding lie"

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#2205 - 11/24/07 06:40 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Baphomit666]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I think this whole conversation is a prime example of the fact that people really are individuals and what qualifies as living a fulfilling life to one may be equally as unfulfilling as the other. Iíve never known any 16 year-old with a great ambition to jump into the work force or even have a clear understanding of what it is they want to do with their lives. And when living with parents isnít an option, given the choice of foster care versus living on your own with your own money, I think any Satanic-minded individual would choose the latter. Iím not sure how it works on a province to province basis in Canada, but I know at least here in Ontario for a minor to go on welfare they have to attend school regularly until the age of 18.

Yes, it does create of safety net for some individuals. Junkies and welfare moms and those sorts of people with lesser ambitions in life have no problem with living below the poverty line. Iíd like to think that the majority of society would want to rise above that and experience the finer things in life, but I donít have the statistics of how many people are on welfare or living in poverty as a result of lacking ambition and even self-respect.

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#2206 - 11/24/07 07:09 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I havenít read ďBrave New WorldĒ but it sounds like an interesting novel. And if I had to take a guess I would say that this ďsomaĒ sounds a lot more like opium than it does marijuana. How though does the author explain a society of people regularly living out ďhallucinatory fantasiesĒ being void of that which is artistic? One would think that a natural side effect of living in a promiscuous sex and drug filled world would be that great artistic visions and accomplishments would be one the rise. From a historical perspective, the two have almost always gone hand in hand. Van Gough drank absinthe, Freud snorted cocaine, opium dens were always filled with sex and hallucinatory fantasies that often came to life and planted the seeds of artistic visions. Are the people in this novel brainwashed, or has the government found a way to naturally eliminate the artistic impulse in people for the so-called greater good?
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#2208 - 11/24/07 07:39 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Almost daily, I have to deal with some pothead dullard that starts it's sentences with "Ahhhh" or "Ummmm" or "Whaaat." Not that I have anything against drugs, but most people are simply average and possess average intelligence. They can ill afford to have their wits dulled any further.

Yes, history is full of very creative people who have used drugs. Again, brilliant people can afford to experiment with drugs. And, it only stands to reason that a highly creative person would seek as many new sensations and experiences as possible. However.... *long pause* .... most people are not that creative! They are simply high. The chances are quite good that your average pothead, crackhead, or junkie is not going to be the second coming of the Dutch Masters.

All the same, read "Brave New World" for yourself. Tell me what you took away from it. But, to answer your question, Soma acts more like a mood stabilizer that retards motivation and thus makes the population unambitious and easily controlled. In many ways it acts more like Prozac or Marijuana where people can use it and still handle routine chores.

As for promiscuous sex...

This really needs it's own thread, but, I really think some reflection needs to be done on this. In general, most people are not centered enough to engage in the practice. Honestly, think of all of the most promiscuous people you know. Perhaps you have noticed that they have 'other issues.' The 'Summer of Love' left more scars on the psyche of Baby Boomer than they care to admit. It was more about exploitation than 'free love.'

But what would I know...
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#2211 - 11/24/07 08:39 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Fist]
Succubus666 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 161
I suppose Iíve never really considered the perceptions of the dullard or those with lower levels of intelligence or motivation. Frankly, Iíve always made a point to stay away from stupid people as I have a very low level of tolerance when it comes to dealing with the willingly ignorant. And being that I own my own business and work from home, it does somewhat decrease the amount of exposure I have to those sort of people so I donít have much of an opportunity to perceive or reflect on their stupidity.

Iíve always been a very artistic person, one who consistently scored in the above average class when it came to intellect and schooling. So as I grew up among western civilization my exposure to mind-altering substances always centered around the creative experience. I liked the eroticism behind certain experiences with these substances and with lovers. I liked the stimulation of thought and reason with other substances, and I donít mind admitting that some of the ideas these ďdrug experimentation experiencesĒ brought forth to me made me thousands of dollars. There were other things I liked about being able to experiment and experience, but I wonít go into them all here.

All of this was done in a relatively controlled setting with knowledge and awareness. Things like addiction, dependence or a resulting lack of ambition never came to mind as that was never who I was. Iíve never thought of drugs as a thing which in themselves make people stupid. Stupid people may go out and look for ways to enhance that aspect of themselves, just as intelligent people may go out and do the same. What Iíd like to say is that ďdrugs should not be condemned as a negative aspect of society as the choice and utilization of that choice lies within the individual,Ē but when I force myself to take a broader look at the inhabitants of this society my confidence wanes when confronted with the question of how many of them would be able to maintain use in moderation, or self-control on any other level for that matter.

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#2934 - 12/26/07 02:57 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Succubus666]
Stan Heath Offline
lurker


Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 3
Loc: Alabama
YES THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S.A. SUCKS!! IF I HAVE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE FOR MY FAMILY IT WILL COST ME OVER $500 A MONTH,.. THEN IT DOESN'T COVER MUCH OF ANYTHING . THIS MOVIE JUST SCRATCH THE SURFACE. 3 -STITCHES IN MY SONS FINGER ENDED UP COSTING ME OVER $3000.00 ,.THE NEW HEALTH CARE PLAN BY HILARY CLINTON IS WORTHLESS TO . THEY WANT TO SUB-CONTRACT THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OUT TO 5 - INSURANCE COMPANIES .....WHICH ARE ALL OWENED BY THE ROCKERFELLERS .....GO FIGURE
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#2935 - 12/26/07 05:41 PM Re: Sicko [Re: Stan Heath]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
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