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#16616 - 12/21/08 11:18 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

There is intelligent theistic Satanism out there but it seems you didn't discover it yet.

Neither have I. Where are they hiding it?


Half joking half not. What exactly would you qualify as intelligent theism? (doesn't have to be Satanism)
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#16618 - 12/21/08 11:21 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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What I would qualify? Hmm, something that considers theism as a form and thus a tool.

D.

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#16620 - 12/21/08 11:27 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Theism implies and necessitates a very real belief in a living deity of some sort that can be interacted with.This can only function on faith, which flies in the face of reason/logic. (the basis of what we consider 'intelligence')

Unless you mean something different by intelligent, I don't know what you mean. I also don't know what you mean by form/tool in this context.
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#16623 - 12/21/08 11:39 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I wouldn't go so far as to call every part of Satanism that uses a theistic perspective to explain their drive or motivation as inherently stupid.

I could pretty well explain my Satanism out of a theistic perspective, as I could out of a satanless atheistic perspective. I maybe even could out of a biblical christian perspective. I do however choose the simple and down-to-earth rational perspective but I am not limited to this choice. That's what I call form, the wrapping of the package. In some ways it doesn't matter too much how you wrap the package, as long as the content is solid. You'll lose some because of the form and you gain some purely because of the form but essentially, when you are deliberately using a certain form, you are communicating with those that can look beyond the form. You can say it's confusing things up to a degree and I admit that is indeed true but this confusion can be a shifting tool.

I nowadays make a habit of trying to find the content beyond the form. At times there is very little because many people don't understand the use of form and get lost inside it. They are glorifying the wrapping and do little more than produce more wrapping. They are incapable of diving deeper and go beyond the barrier that has been set up. Let's call them the shallow ones, a mind limited to go only a certain distance while others can dive right into the essence, communicate above the form or even in the form whenever they feel like it. In a way, see it as a coded message, some just don't have the key to break the code.

ONA as an example is without a doubt intelligent and they're not the only ones but a minority compared to the shallow form-addicts.

D.

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#16624 - 12/21/08 11:47 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

There is intelligent theistic Satanism out there but it seems you didn't discover it yet.

Neither have I. Where are they hiding it?


Half joking half not. What exactly would you qualify as intelligent theism? (doesn't have to be satanism)

Intelligent theism... maybe the sect-like people who commit suicide? At least they are intelligent enough to kill themselves so we wouldn't waste energy on them trying to break their illusive bubble..
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#16625 - 12/21/08 11:48 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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I don't know, I see it a bit different. I don't see the theism/Atheism dichotomy in Satanism to be a matter of wrapping/superficiality but rather as the core issue.

In my mind Satanism hinges on a certain set of things, and excluding these things leaves something other than Satanism. One of these things is autotheism. The very core of being a Satanist is the exultation of ones own self, to propel ones own self to great things. To propel oneself to 'rise above' as it were. Rise above the masses that instead of focusing their will inwards, are subserving it to some imaginary nothing and perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.

In my mind, 'theistic satanists' are no different whatsoever than theistic anything else. Same premises. Same faith. Same abdication of responsibility onto something else. Same glorification of being 'second banana' to something else.
Slave mentality.
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#16626 - 12/21/08 11:58 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Not really Dan, this is only the case when people are the form. I can be, believe to be or pretend to be. My form would be identical but my commitment to the form would be different.

If I want to communicate with someone out of my area here, I would shift to my local tongue and exclude all that aren't capable of understanding it. It's language and switching between languages whenever the need is there seems logical and reasonable to us. But you can do the same with form. If I only want to communicate with certain people, I could change my message accordingly. I could still write in plain english, I could still write things that seem understandable to most but at the same time, I could have my true communication wrapped inside and only accessible to those able to see it.

But I won't deny that there are a lot out there that are the form they use, most theistic Satanism is depressingly silly, no doubt about that.

D.

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#16630 - 12/21/08 12:34 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
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 Quote:

Not really Dan, this is only the case when people are the form. I can be, believe to be or pretend to be. My form would be identical but my commitment to the form would be different.

I realize utility is not identity, or that what you do and what you are are separate things. See my sig.
That IS what you are saying here right? I have honestly read your post 4 times now and I am not entirely sure what you are saying here.

Your metaphor about language I get, and I agree that situational context is always important to consider before you do something.

I don't really see how any of this conflicts with or relates to anything I wrote, though, as the first three words of your opening sentence seems to imply. I am a bit lost

I think we may be flying right past each other here.
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#16636 - 12/21/08 01:54 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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I assume we are flying right past each other. Not really sure actually.

What I'm talking about is that one should not condemn all theistic Satanism directly because of its form. Condemn it when it is only form or maybe condemn the form itself but there is some out there that has got some pretty amazing stuff.
I'm not sure if you disregard anything theistic simply because it is theistic. If, I do advice you to reconsider that and analyse some. You'll encounter a lot of crap, undeniable but man, some stuff is good.

D.

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#16638 - 12/21/08 02:09 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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I have to admit I do completely throw theism out the door, in all of it's forms, for reasons mostly outlined in my posts #16620/#16625 in this thread.

None of the reasons given therein have been addressed. I find my reasoning to be solid.


I really don't know what you mean by 'some of it is good'. Do you mean parts that exist independent of the belief system itself? like the rituals? Or do you mean there are 'good' ways to believe in 'imaginary friends'?

Do you see nothing wrong with forming beliefs out of thin air? The slippery slope that can lead to?
"one false belief is the beginning of all unwisdom"
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#16640 - 12/21/08 02:14 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Ringmaster Offline
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Loc: Salem Oregon
I wouldn't condem the beliefs themselves simply because if someone believes it hell they believe it. I just find it counterproductive because I am an autotheist. Putting what I think to be blind faith into some external diety just seems foolish to me simply for the fact that there is no proof. Granted that arguement can used by both parties resulting in a circular unending "my beliefs are better" conversation.

There is nothing wrong with the belief of needing rituals and dogma in ones life. But I feel that it becomes counterproductive when the person uses it as a crutch to base reality off of. Sure rituals are sometimes used by autotheists but it is seen as mere role-playing, not as a reality. I have used the rituals as a way of venting out emotions. I don't expect some metaphsyical results popping up out of nowhere because of the way I said a group of words. The sheer power of words used in my rituals is enough to put my mind at ease.
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#16644 - 12/21/08 02:22 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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It seems we are not flying past each other.

I understand what you react against, it's something I reacted against myself. The form can be appaling to people that are materialistic (as I am) or that prefer a non-bullshit context.
But at times one has to enter the bullshit to see the content behind it and this content can teach more than one realizes.

Think of how some people dislike Satanism and discard anything said because the form it is presented in, is satanic. Let it even be modern satanic if you like. Some will just say; stupid devilworshipers or social darwinian utopists and that's it. They just discard all info because of the form.
While we know there is a lot of valuable stuff to be found in Satanism for them able to comprehend it or think about it. But Satanism is a form that is such a huge barrier to some they can't pass it.

Theistic Satanism can be such a form too, some esoteric (gosh I hate that label) stuff is also a form. If you look at philosophy, it has lots of different forms, but still contains valuable information that can give pretty decent insights and help one on his path.

Think like in certain movies. Like The Matrix. To some it is just stupid Sci-Fi and they can't stand watching it. To some it's a cool action movie and others do find very interesting philosophical concepts or questions in it.

D.

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#16645 - 12/21/08 02:27 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ok I see what you are saying now, but I would really need an example of something useful or good to ever come from theistic Satanism. In my experience it is usually just an internally inconsistent and incoherent sloppy mix of half understood beliefs pilfered from other belief systems, that quickly collapses under even the slightest amount of scrutiny.

Could you please present a few examples to the contrary so I can really know what you are talking about?
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#16647 - 12/21/08 02:28 PM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I will but I'll go to PM.

D.

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#16707 - 12/22/08 05:03 AM Re: 4 Crowned Princes of Hell [Re: Dan_Dread]
lianna666diaboli Offline
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Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Washington, DC
I haven't posted here in a very, very long time. I have learned my lesson, and I am not saying this because I am afraid of debate. There is obviously nothing here denoting a collaborative respectful interchange. Obviously a another perspective is not welcome. Obvious no one here is serious or adept, respectful or accepting of what a forum is designed to encourage. By these replies, you divulge your own hearts and minds. You've already shown who and what you are-and are not.

It is noteworthy that Internet Satanism is filled such types, conflicted, condescending, critical of sincere expression. The only place where some can get some ego filling worth. Manipulation, criticism, disgust allows push-back and a never a sincere scrutiny of self.

"...There is intelligent theistic Satanism out there but it seems you didn't discover it yet..." How utterly self-confessing of a complete lack of what you espouse.

High School all over again.

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