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#3378 - 01/11/08 11:00 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Euronymous]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 26
Loc: somewhere on this giant dirt b...
Finally a real response. Since you were so fast to judge me, i just want to fucking laugh at you. First off i have never visited a "myspace" website... EVER..nor will i ever. I actully wear very little make-up. To make this real simple for ya, i don't publicly exploit my Santanistic nature. I get more pleasure when people are oblivious of whom stands behind them in the groccery store line. True i once was this little" goth ass punck bitch", but i have long since transcended for the mentality a a punk ass kid!!! I'am going on 30 yrs. of age, i no longer give a fuck what people think when they look at me. FYI, i was the bully on the school ground...done 3yrs institutionalized for it.(not that i'am proud of that) You only make yourself look like a fool to me, by jumping to conclusions when you have no real facts to base them on. As for expanding my mind to christianity....NO THANKS....been there and it was the worst expirience of my life. Oh ya, i haven't literally pissed on a church since i was like 15 yrs. old, yet the memory sill entertains my mind.
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#3379 - 01/11/08 11:18 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You're irritating. You have the vocab an writing skill of a boy of 7 and the personality of a blueberry scone. You're just going to get peoples backs up if you carry on like this, now you're clearly not happy here (or wanted) so why don't you get lost and go elsewhere. Also pissing on a church means sod all, every drunken college guy in Hampshire has done that (It's the only building for 1.5 miles between the housing and the pub, not even a tree or wall to piss against).
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3383 - 01/12/08 12:48 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 26
Loc: somewhere on this giant dirt b...
A blueberry scone huh...thats original.Now your right i haven't been to happy lately and find this hypocritical site did'nt improve my demeanor.As for my typing skills, i can thank my cat for helping me look stupid that way, he steps on the keyboard alot.... Sorry about that one, i shall be more careful. Why do so many of you take me litteraly about pissing on churches, i was only being a smart ass.i haven't done that for like 15 yrs., so get over it.NO i'am not going away just yet. And frankly, you are irritating me right now, guess turn about is fair play.
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#3388 - 01/12/08 11:55 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You know what, you're probably going to get banned soon. You get peoples backs up and say stupid things. Luckily this forum isn't a democracy nor does it have to be fair, we (and by we I mean the collective quality of this forum) could just ban you because we would be happier without you. Change your attitude or someone who, unlike myself, owning a moderators coverted ban button, may be the next person you piss off. Don't take this the wrong way, it's not a threat nor is it me trying to be horrible, I'm warning you that you're seriously pissing people off.

As for the cat on the keyboard... why didn't you REREAD the post after the animal jumped onto your keyboard? I would.

Basically if you're here to argue and get people backs up just leave now, you won't enjoy your time here, people will get angry at you and you'll get banned. If you're here to talk and discuss things that fine. Hell this is probably the most lenient forum I've ever been on, but we don't like stupidity here or pretentiousness.

Something to think about at least.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3398 - 01/12/08 04:02 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
This reply is for those who have misinterpreted my position on this piece.

Let me be very clear in saying that the study of the Christian Bible is more than worth the time. I've read several versions of it several times, in addition to the Book of Mormon, the Torah, the Qu'ran, the Bagivadghita, and many other of the world's major religious works. I am better informed because of it. Reading is rarely a waste.

What I object to is the caricaturization of Christ and Satan to suit the author's needs. This is fine for fiction, but hardly belongs in a serious forum discussing philosophy.

Octavius
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So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#3412 - 01/13/08 12:14 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Honestly I would disagree with you about the Bible.

As a book for moral codes it advocates slavery, prejudice, sexism, animal sacrifice, the death penalty, war and subjugation. If forbids sexual desire, procreation, free will and critical thinking to name but a few things.

As a book for entertainment, the main purpose of books in my opinion. The Bible is difficult to follow, extremely predictable, astoundingly boring and long winded, it's got a tremendous amount of filler and the chracters are painfully one dimensional.

I see reading the Bible as being a waste of time for me in my current state because as far as I can see there is only one benefit to reading the Bible and that is that we need more Athiests and nothing converts someone faster than reading the damn Bible. This is the only good thing to come from that dreadfull book.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3519 - 01/16/08 02:45 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 26
Loc: somewhere on this giant dirt b...
Okay, Tornado Creator, you..i admit are right. Yes, i was coming across in such a manner that would "get peoples backs up". From time to time i get a little out of control trying to get my point across. I realize that getting the people of this "group" pissed at me is really not what i'am looking for. Yet the christian bible and ALL THINGS CHRISTIAN LIKE...i stil and always will hate them with every fiber of my being. And my opinions are not ignorant to me because i HAVE read the bible and the Book Of Mormon, so i do have an educated knowledge of what it is i hate so much.So when i first came across these forums, thinking that christianity would'nt bother me here.. well i was a little dissapointed and rather pissed off. I apoligize for getting on you nerves.And i hope there are a least a few people whom i can talk to on thus site who will embrace "Christian Bashing" with me, i know now you are not that person. And as for why i did not reread my post..well again i was pissed off and acted in haste..we or (I) as a human do, do rather stupid impulsive shit from time to time.
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#3521 - 01/16/08 03:52 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Fair enough.

I make fun of religion from time to time, but honestly, I've outgrown 'Christian Bashing', I will debate morals with a Christian politely from time to time but I feel like I'm granting too much freedom for religion. I tend to just give criticism and move on now. This doesn't mean I can't laugh at religion, hell, if it's not there for my ammusement... why the fuck not? It should be.

That's my outlook on religion and I'm sticking to it.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3530 - 01/16/08 05:44 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
A reasonable understanding of Christian myths and philosophy is essential for any kind of progress with Satanism. It is important to remember that Satanism (in any form; theistic, LaVeyan, etc.) is a post-Christian religion, much in the same way that Christianity itself is a post-Jewish religion (plus numerous pre-Christian pagan religions besides). In each case, the myths and symbolism of the parent religion are recycled and re-purposed for the new one. So the Jewish Passover festival becomes the Eucharist, The pagan winter solstice festivals becomes incorporated into Christmas etc., etc.

So it is with Satanism, which in many respects can be seen to be as much as an outgrowing of, as it is a reaction against Christianity per se. Hence some degree of appreciation of where Christianity came from, how it developed, important themes and so on will certainly be useful in developing a deeper, more nuanced understanding of Satanism -- rather than it simply being a shallow rebuke of Christian fundamentalism, which ultimately isn't really going to get you very far in life.

Stag

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#3532 - 01/16/08 08:47 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I prefer to look at Satanism as having little or nothing to do with modern religions, however there's no secret that Islam and Christianity have caused alot of Satanists to question religion just because they have seen the strange shit that religion is trying to do or justify.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3596 - 01/20/08 04:56 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
Despite what some might argue, Satanism did not spring fully formed like Athena from the brow of Anton LaVey. It has a long and convoluted history stretching back many centuries, perhaps even to the dawn of thought itself.

This heritage is readily apparent to anyone who has studied Satanic Philosophy for any length of time. Thematically at least, the most obvious influence is from Christianity itself; Satan is a Christian symbol, let's not pretend otherwise.

Into the mix we also have any number of pagan influences, some filtered through the lens of Christianity, others more directly via history books, comparative religious studies, etc. On top of this we have add healthy dose of post-Enlightenment philosophy and a practical approach to magick as popularised by Crowley, et al. (being itself a mash-up of alchemy, quabbalah, yoga etc.)

Once you understand where Satanism has come from, you can begin to think about where it's going, which admittedly is a whole other subject entirely.

Stag

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#3607 - 01/20/08 07:09 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
What I object to is the caricaturization of Christ and Satan to suit the author's needs. This is fine for fiction, but hardly belongs in a serious forum discussing philosophy.


By this standard, Plato's Dialogues do not count as philosophy, as Plato blatantly 'caricaturized' the views of Socrates to support his own metaphysical beliefs (such as survival after death and reincarnation - Socrates himself may have been agnostic about this sort of thing).
He certainly caricatured Socrates' opponents in debate, the vilified Sophists.
And - shock, horror! - he utilised a fictional scenario for what was indeed a serious discussion of philosophy.

Actually, by this standard, even the biblical Gospels can be classed as a 'caricaturization' of Jesus.
If you agree that there was a real man whom the biblical Jesus was based on (which is somewhat in doubt), then surely the gospels are a fictional caracature?
Either way, they are mostly fictional - as was a lot of ancient symbolic literature.

Then there are the contradictions.
Matthew, Mark and Luke portray a slightly-more-than-human-but-not-God Jesus, while in the Gospel of John he is definitely God Incarnate.

And there are the 'gnostic' Gospels. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus is very much a Buddha-type figure. In the Gospel of Judas, he has the ability to metamorphise into a child. In others, he is a guide offering a model of initiation into the esoteric 'inner Mysteries' of the gnostics, in the style of the old pagan Mystery cults (the source of the term 'mysticism').

St Paul's Jesus was a figure who appeared to him in a vision of light.
Is this really the same dude we are talking about?
Or is this figure more of a chameleon, adapted to the individual's needs even at the very formation of orthodoxy?

The German theologian Rudolf Bultmann called this the 'deep well effect'. Looking for the 'real' Jesus is like looking down a well - all we actually see is our own reflection...


And as for Satan... in the Book of Job he is definitely not the personification of evil. That definition has to wait until the New Testament.
And even then, he is oddly devoid of horns and that famous pitchfork. These were a medieval addition based on a parody of pagan gods such as Pan and Triton.

So, who is the 'real' Jesus?
Or the 'real' Satan?

None. And all.
What became Christian orthodoxy was originally only one branch of the faith, and set to rigidly define its canon and dogma.

Unlike mainstream Christianity, the Gnostics had no problem with writing their own interpretations of Christ into (many, many) later gospels.
This was largely because they viewed him as an archetypal, spiritual figure ('Docetism'), rather than a real flesh-and-blood man with divine attributes. So he wasn't 'set in stone', unlike what the Church made of him.
Thus, the 'real' Jesus, as Timothy Freke later put it, is a red herring.
The same goes for Satan (or any other fictional demon).


Of course, a person may be interested in the original religious portrayal of a deity. It makes little sense to look to a modern dialogue such as this in search of such historical accuracy, when it was never intended to be anything other than an elaborate postmodern discussion of ethics (which would be far less interesting if it stuck rigidly to Christian tradition).
It is not a history of religion lesson.
There is plenty of material available on that already.


As for the dialogue.... actually, it was originally between 'A' and 'B' (as is not unknown in academic philosophy).
What you object to so vehemently is a last-minute 'replace all' job.
If you really don't like the names - just copy the dialogue into your favorite word processor and replace them.


Edited by Mequa (01/20/08 08:00 PM)
Edit Reason: Rudolf Bultmann

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#3610 - 01/20/08 09:33 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Your above reply is so eloquent, yet nothing you wrote changes my opinion of the original piece. Ms. Mequa, why is it so important to you that I appreciate this post as something thought-provoking? Does it bother you that much to have me criticize this particular piece? Just curious...
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#3622 - 01/21/08 12:17 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I just found it to be a humourous way of spending 10 minutes and I think everyone here is putting far to much significance into it, significance it doesn't deserve.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3714 - 01/27/08 04:13 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
Your above reply is so eloquent, yet nothing you wrote changes my opinion of the original piece. Ms. Mequa, why is it so important to you that I appreciate this post as something thought-provoking? Does it bother you that much to have me criticize this particular piece? Just curious...


Should it bother me?
I saw this as a creative exercise, which may serve as a potential springboard towards deeper thought and insight regarding the serious meta-ethical and epistemological questions raised in this dialogue.
If these questions (or the style and setting in which they are raised) do not raise your interest, however (and most people fall into this category anyway - hardcore philosophy can be pretty arcane), then you doubtless know what kind of things are more thought-provoking to you and stimulate your interest.

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