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#1706 - 11/10/07 07:15 PM A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan
Meq Offline
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A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan


Jesus: Love your neighbour as yourself. Do not repay evil for evil.

Satan: You think that is the good life?

Jesus: Yes.

Satan: And how do you substantiate that?

Jesus: Well, it's obvious really. If you hurt a person in revenge, it will always come back to you. You reap what you sow. So you are only hurting yourself.

Satan: Of course, if you believe in divine judgment, or Karma. But I do not. I only believe in natural cause and effect. So I don't think it will necessarily 'come back' to you if you are smart and strong enough, and able to evade the social consequences of your harmful acts to others.

Jesus: But taking revenge harms your soul.

Satan: How does it harm your soul?

Jesus: Revenge involves an obsessive desire to harm another person, which may not be possible and thus leads to frustration. Such anger and frustration necessarily sours your happiness in the here and now.

Satan: But, can a person not take vengeance without getting overly attached to the results of it? So that it is indulgence, not compulsion?

Jesus: Perhaps, but vengeance is based upon hatred, which is irrational, and leads to alienation against the All, against the universe and the divine.

Satan: And how is hatred irrational?

Jesus: Well, hatred is based on a belief that a person chose to harm you, through their free will, and this harmed your soul. From such a past act, you condemn the person in the here and now - enmeshing yourself to a story of the past - while in fact, they were not acting in freedom, but as a slave to irrational darkness. Furthermore, the suffering they caused you did not harm your soul, and can in fact help you to grow spiritually. You can learn to find the source of real joy from within, and thus learn how others' actions can never harm your soul.

Satan: I grant how being less attached to a story of the past can indeed set you free, and thus aid rational self-interest. But this passion of hatred and revenge is universally human. And surely it is no more irrational than romantic or sexual love - the belief that devotion to a person of the opposite sex is the way to real happiness. Yet such a passion of sexual attraction is merely nature's way of continuing the human species - without regard to the real happiness of the individual involved. Yet the survival of human life depends on this passion - as well as the passion of anger. Both passions can be destructive to the individual when taken to an extreme - yet they can be immensely pleasurable and beneficial when taken smartly in moderation. Just as humans today can enjoy sex without reproduction - or the burden of emotional enmeshment with another person - they can also enjoy taking vengeance on those who hurt them. 'Revenge is sweet.'

Jesus: I agree with you that sexual and romantic passion can be detrimental to the soul - thus many wise monks and sages have decided to choose celibacy in their pursuit of spiritual enlightenment. Yet sexual and sensual enjoyment – without compulsion - is a reasonable option for the majority of human beings. However, taking revenge is never permissible, and is always wrong.

Satan: That is an interesting point, so I'd like to discuss it next. However, I’d like to ask one more question first: How do you know that a person who harms you is not acting freely? I'm not talking about 'free will' in some kind of metaphysical sense here, so much as asking why a malicious or manipulative act (such as stealing, murder, seduction or manipulation), which is carried out with cunning smartness and self-interest, is necessarily less free and less 'enlightened' than, for example, an act of compassion?

Jesus: It is because we are all one body, and deeply interconnected. Only a person who really lives from this knowledge is truly happy, being free and spiritually enlightened - and that means living an ethic of non-violence and boundless compassion towards others - taking compassionate action to help them, not harm them. A person who harms or exploits another is failing to express their divine loving nature as part of the All. In contrast, an enlightened being not only refuses to cause harm, but will not sit by while others suffer – for to do nothing is to do evil. Rather, he is a willing slave to love, giving freely of his time and energy to help all sentient beings be really happy - despite the personal suffering this may cause him. But he finds that it is somehow ultimately worth it. He feels it in his bones.

Satan: Hold on. So what you are saying is that, if a person robs you, it is only because they are unenlightened?

Jesus: Yes. For a person to rob, they must be excessively attached to material possessions and wealth. Such a state of attachment – or the worship of wealth – is a sign of spiritual immaturity. An enlightened person would not be so attached to wealth and materiality that they would harm another person merely to further their own material interests. So the robber’s actions are an expression of his own spiritual sickness and irrationality.

Satan: I disagree. While it is certainly true that excessive attachment to wealth – like any compulsive craving or idolisation of something outside oneself – is harmful to oneself, it does not follow from this that robbing another person is never in one’s best interests.

Jesus: Yes it does!

Satan: No. In terms of excessive attachment to wealth, it makes no difference whether one obtains wealth from a rich relative, a business venture, a lottery win – or via robbery, fraud or murder – provided one gets away with it, can live with oneself, and is smart enough to not have to live in fear of retribution or prosecution. The important thing is not to get excessively attached or addicted to money, not where one gets it from. Indulgence, not compulsion. As Seneca said, it takes a weak mind to be unable to bear wealth. Addiction to wealth causes harm to oneself – and it is harm to oneself which is the most important thing to avoid, not harm to others. On the other hand, if a person has the opportunity to obtain extra wealth by stealing, the power and smartness to get away with it, the self-esteem to be able to live with himself, and the equanimity to avoid getting excessively attached to it – how can such a person possibly harm himself by robbing others? Furthermore, obtaining vast wealth in this way may free one from the burden of having to support oneself financially via stressful and tedious work – allowing the person to lead a more contemplative life, and thus even a more enlightened one. So if the act of robbery is not a detrimental act to oneself, it cannot be said to be unenlightened, and there are no grounds for supposing that an enlightened being would necessarily act otherwise.

Jesus: Yes there are. Such selfish acts as robbery, fraud, murder – or indeed, vengeance – alienate one from his fellow man and from the All. There is only one way a human being can possibly be happy, and that necessarily involves recognising that we are all one body, and deeply interconnected. Love your neighbour as yourself, because in a sense your neighbour is yourself – sharing in the same being. Once this happy enlightened state is reached, a person cannot fail to express a boundless compassion towards others, acting in altruism and personal self-sacrifice for the greater good. They will cheerfully give and never steal, always help and never harm.

Satan: Hold on. Is this true for everyone - or just for a few people who are that way inclined?

Jesus: It is universally true for everyone, absolutely without exception.

Satan: And how do you substantiate that?

Jesus: It resonates with me.

Satan: Okay.

Jesus: I guess only those who lack finer instincts can fail to recognise the absolute value of love, compassion, non-violence, altruism and self-sacrifice.

Satan: While it is possible that there is more to that 'argument' than a blatant ad hominem personal attack, and I am indeed lacking some special esoteric or mystical knowledge which will reveal the truth of this matter in its true light - nevertheless, I cannot accept your conclusion without a reasonable argument.

Jesus: Your loss. I know I am right. Anyway, it seems totally obvious and self-evident to me that harming another person, such as through revenge, is always wrong - evil - negative - a bad thing to do.

Satan: And how is taking revenge or harming another person so wrong? I don't believe in moral absolutes, only what is best for the individual. I don't see how harming another person will necessarily always lead to harming oneself, if one is smart enough in carrying out one's revenge.

Jesus: But all of us are one body. We are all interconnected, and so hating or harming another person leads to alienation against the All.

Satan: You are forgetting that the divine is immanent in both the rational and the 'irrational'; in hatred as well as love; in cruelty and the act of vengeance, as well as in kindness and forgiveness. All these are parts of the All - do not forget this!

Jesus: Yes, but irrationality, hatred and vengeance are based on a non-acceptance of reality as it really is. They should therefore be avoided, so that reality can be accepted. Therefore, hatred should be turned around, the will to revenge should be turned into forgiveness, and irrationality should be replaced with rationality.

Satan: But does not this ‘should’ itself involve a non-acceptance of reality as it really is? You propose that non-acceptance be countered with non-acceptance - 'fighting fire with fire'. Why not, instead, bring acceptance into the non-acceptance? Accept the hatred and act of vengeance without judging it as 'bad' or 'unhealthy' or 'negative' - provided it does not interfere with one's rational individual self-interest?

Jesus: Yes, but a Sage - a perfectly wise man, a Buddha or Christ - would not feel or act in such a way. Should we not strive to move towards this ideal, rather than away from it?

Satan: Even if emulating such an ideal is the best thing for us to do – which has not yet been determined – who is to say that the path towards Sagehood is a straight line? Developmental psychology often talks of 'U-shaped' development - seemingly getting worse before it gets better, but as a necessary prerequisite to growth. Perhaps becoming more hateful or vengeful or irrational or even murderous is a prerequisite for certain unique individuals to move on to further spiritual growth?

Jesus: This is dangerous thinking. Such behaviours and emotions are harmful, and totally useless. We would be better off without them.

Satan: Better off by whose standards? Human nature is wild - not something which can be kept tidy and sterile. Your ideal of a perfectly wise Sage may seem lovely, but it is in fact a ridiculous caricature of human nature - no one is like that. Implicit in your veneration of such ideals is a despising of human nature as it really is - the brutal, irrational, vicious, vengeful, hateful and downright cruel aspects of life.

Jesus: But such very real aspects of human nature are not denied in my Sage - they are merely transcended and included into the ideal of a perfectly loving and rational being.

Satan: So, like in alchemy, you wish to transmute the base metal of human nature into gold. But how do you know this is not just an impossible fantasy? And how is such a Christ-like Ideal Being relevant to the reality of human life?

Jesus: I know it can be done, because of the many enlightened Sages who have walked the Earth and paved the way. The common man is on the same spiritual hierarchy as the Sage, but only further down. This is a completely linear hierarchy, with such Sages at the top, the common man in the middle, and criminals at the bottom. The only positive direction any human being can go is away from criminality and towards compassion. Robbery and revenge have absolutely no place whatsoever in the good life. When society progresses, whether through divine or human means - for goodness is bound to conquer evil in the end - the common man shall be Sage-like, and all cruelty and delusion will be removed from the human race.

Satan: But many of these so-called enlightened Sages have turned out to be deeply hypocritical and 'unspiritual', leading double lives. Even if there really are enlightened Sages - who is to say if all humanity has the potential to be as these few? Perhaps they have their own nature, and the average human being has his or hers. They are not 'superior' or 'more evolved', but merely different. The mass of humans will retain their nature as it is.

Jesus: But this merely illustrates the spiritual darkness which the mass of humanity lurks in, and its need to awaken. The enlightened few can show the way to the masses.

Satan: This is an ideological construct. So is your 'spiritual hierarchy'. Perhaps it is not possible for the mass of humanity to transcend their nature, and escape illusion. If that is so, then why not embrace human nature as it is - incurably irrational, deluded, vengeful, and cruel? And if illusion and cruelty is the inescapable human condition - why not embrace it? Rather than viewing this as 'bad' or 'negative', or something to be overcome - simply accept it as it IS. We just are what we are.

Jesus: But even if such pessimism holds, it is still worth continuing the same path - attempting to both transcend, and include, human nature. Both/and, not either/or.

Satan: No. This is doublethink. Your approach fails to 'include' human nature 'as it is' in its attempt to 'transcend' it. If human nature cannot satisfactorily be 'transcended' into a condition of sweetness and light without denying and condemning the dark reality of what being human really consists of - then to attempt to do so is to try and have your cake and eat it.

Jesus: Well, of course it cannot be done perfectly in reality. In an ideal world, human nature could be perfectly transcended and included. But still, in our imperfect world, we must try.

Satan: And why must we? Your ideal of a Sage-like all-compassionate perfect human being is an impossible, irrelevant and idealistic dream. To judge human nature by it - and watch human nature come off badly, making us look 'flawed' - as 'fallen'. But if such so-called 'fallenness' is our natural condition, then why not accept it as it is - without the negative value-judgment necessarily involved in comparing it to such a ridiculous ideal? As the Zen Buddhists say: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" The 'Buddha' in this context is the ideal of the Sage. Kill the ideal. Embrace the reality. Stop trying to turn human beings into angels - and accept instead that angels do not exist, and humans will never be angels. There are only human beings as they are. Cruel, deluded, destructive, selfish and vengeful animals. The screams of the suffering masses do not concern me. "The public good be damned! I will have no part in it!"...

Jesus: But that is nihilism! We all need to have strong idealistic dreams in order to live!

Satan: Well, I do not. And there is nothing nihilistic about accepting reality as it really is. The greatest good to me is to pursue my own individual survival, well-being and happiness. Much like adolescent romantic love, your idealistic dreams promise a personal happiness beyond measure – and claim to be the only way to such happiness. Yet not only are they equally deluded, they are just as much a hindrance to obtaining real happiness. Being genuinely happy, first and foremost, involves a judicious use of one’s intellect and critical faculty, in order to see certain things more clearly. Most urgently, this means rejecting false and unsubstantiated values which drain one’s vitality. Such as values derived from guilt, shame, fear, ignorance, a lack of acceptance of one’s more brutal nature, and the burdensome and guilt-ridden belief that “I am my brother’s keeper”. Values which negate one’s own survival, well-being and happiness to the benefit of others – coupled with the delusory and unsubstantiated promise that this is somehow the only real way to one’s individual happiness. What a swindle!

Jesus: Well, my friend, when you are as spiritually mature as me, I am sure that you will recognise your aching spiritual need, and finally come round to my glorious values and ideals.

Satan: Such a thinly-veiled ad hominem personal attack is your only rebuttal? And with what smug arrogance you defend yourself as a bastion of maturity when clinging so desperately to your oh-so-precious beliefs as they struggle against sound argument!

Jesus: I love you, my friend. I hope you see the light.

Satan: I hope you do too, if you truly value the truth as much as you claim. But I suspect a feel-good, romanticist, mystical pipe dream is what you really want, rather than a clear-headed, sober and down-to-earth perspective on reality.

Jesus: You fucking bastard!

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#1720 - 11/10/07 09:15 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Meq Offline
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A literary note:
The names were the last thing I added to this piece.
Some of the views of 'Jesus' here are closer to those of Socrates.

Also, some of the views of 'Satan' are derived from LaVey, Nietzsche, Rand and others (including Hume and Schopenhauer) - while others diverge widely from these thinkers (who had many disagreements as well as parallels).

This is not an orthodox LaVeyan piece by any means.
I merely borrowed the literary theme as a base to build upon with some creative new ideas and dialogue...

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#1735 - 11/11/07 01:03 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Octavius Offline
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Christianity: Why do we even care?

Am I the only one who just doesn't give a damn about anything Christian? Am I the only one who is indifferent towards Christians? Am I the only one who can visualize satanic philosophy and practical application without a connection to Christianity? Why must there be this duality for so many of us?

A piece like this doesn't speak of freedom. It doesn't disprove or discount Christian philosophy. It's an angry tirade in the guise of a superiority complex. A piece like this only weakens the satanic ideal and mollifies the caricature of what Satanism has become.

Do you really care what Jesus would say? What do you gain by pointing out Christian folly other than a false sense of superiority? Isn’t it easier to simply NOT CARE about what Jesus would or wouldn't say? Or are you using these opposing views as archetypes? If so, to what purpose? It seems to me that your summation of Jesus crying foul with "You fucking bastard!" only illustrates that the point of your entire diatribe was to get a proverbial "rise" out of a fictitious character. Why on earth would you spend your time and energy on such a pointless endeavor?

Am I wrong? Or does this whole piece simply play into "WWJD?
"


Edited by Octavius (11/11/07 01:06 AM)
Edit Reason: html correction
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#1736 - 11/11/07 01:19 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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I think it's fantastic, a wonderful piece, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
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#1741 - 11/11/07 03:14 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
undeadridinghood Offline
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Honestly, I couldn't get through the whole thing, my eyes just aren't working tonight. Or last night for that matter, or the night before that... but I digress.


The fact that she said that the names came last kind of shows that she *isn't* going in a WWJD sort of anti Christian rant. She said that she took the theories of many, not just Christians, and I trust her on that, I suppose.

On the pointless endeavor note, perhaps rather than considering it as a piece of Satanic philosophy, you could try thinking of it as a writing exercise, or a screenplay. It shows creative talent, and exercising that definitely isn't a pointless endeavor.

Also, not all of the people who may join, have joined, or think of joining this forum are beyond Christianity. There are still perfectly rational, interesting people, I know at least one, who are, what is the proper term, stereotypical satanists. They believe in god, they believe in Satan, and they made a choice. It's always possible that it is just you that doesn't care.


Edited by undeadridinghood (11/11/07 03:15 AM)

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#1746 - 11/11/07 11:55 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
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Greetings Octavius,

The opposing views were indeed intended as archetypal - in an "undefiled wisdom vs hypocritical self-deceit" kind of way.

The last line was not intended for mass publication - though I thought it would be interesting to post on a forum such as this.
My other version concludes:
Jesus: Oh, you evil scoundrel!

But the 'fucking bastard' conclusion is a parody of the emotional reaction of many moralistic dogmatists who resort to fallacious reasoning, ad hominem attacks and what Rand called the Argument from Intimidation, then resort to childish name-calling rather than admit defeat. I've seen this a lot too, and I thought it's be fun to poke fun at it.
It kind of sums up the attitude of many moralists:
"If you don't accept my personal value judgments as objective truth, then you are a piece of shit."

Or as Rand put it:
"Only the most degenerate, morally depraved, cretinous imbecile could fail to see the truth of my argument."


And yes, the views I attributed to 'Jesus' are very common viewpoints and arguments I have had to encounter and debate. Not exactly Christian per se (all of them), but with a similar moralising and anti-individual stance - which often subtly undermine the individual in my view.

The views I attributed to 'Satan' are certainly not to be taken as definitive truth - just in the spirit of an individual rebelling against moralistic dogma and attempting to affirm his own life and individuality.
Agreement is not necessary, just an appreciation of the general spirit of this endeavour.

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#1779 - 11/11/07 09:28 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Personally I just found it to be an interesting and entertaining piece of writing that was well worth spending a few minutes reading and smirking at before moving on to the next thing. It was a worthwhile use of my time as I found it entertaining. Why does it need to be anything more?
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#1782 - 11/11/07 10:07 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
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I appreciate the replies, especially from the author. As to Mr. Tornado's question of why it needs to be anything more, I simply expect more from the Philosoophy forum than Jesus bashing and evil posturing. It's apparent that there are many interpretations, and I replied with mine.
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#1783 - 11/11/07 10:47 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
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This dialogue represents the tension between the inherent demands of rational self-interest in the individual, and the additional burden of morality or humanitarian love imposed by society (and indeed from biological instinct - morals and social values evolved from ape cooperation).

The question raised is - why should an individual follow social values, when he becomes conscious enough to realise that these often come into conflict with his own personal happiness?

'Jesus' fails to provide a rational answer to this question posed by 'Satan', so he makes the archetypal value judgment of demonising those who hold dissenting views as 'evil', and those views themselves 'evil' or 'Satanic', forbidden or taboo ways of thinking which empower the individual to the (possible) detriment of society.

The seemingly childish reaction of 'Jesus', "You fucking bastard!", is an example of primitive emotion, resulting from our biological heritage and also fostered by society. It is precisely this emotional impulse which is behind the social morality, imposing moral dogma and demonising ways of thinking which do not accept it.

This is not necessarily a 'good' or 'bad' thing, it is how societies work. To motivate an individual to practice altruism to his own detriment, it is necessary to convert the individual to a value system which undermines his own happiness (often unconsciously to him).

This value system boils down to a dogmatic belief, held by the individual, that acting altruistically is good.

The role of social morality is to enforce this dogma in the individual, blinding him to the possibility of breaking away from the imposed norms and living a life liberated from guilt.

Which necessarily leads this very subject matter into socially unacceptable areas - its potential to corrupt good young minds, for instance \:D

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#1817 - 11/12/07 07:32 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Poneros Offline
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I enjoyed it thoroughly. Using the terms Satan or Satanist generally creates a feeling of antipathy among the christians of the world. Like Octavius, I couldn't really care less what they think, but in the sense that we use the word Satan--a word from their texts ( Milton notwithstanding)--one expects the occasional us/them debate to occur.

I liked seeing how both halves used so many of the various moral stances from the last several centuries as both logical and emotional fodder. Well played.

I suppose the end was a tad predictable, given the nature of the site, but it doesn't mean I wasn't rooting for that outcome. Heh.

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#1951 - 11/16/07 05:56 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Poneros]
Meq Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Poneros
I liked seeing how both halves used so many of the various moral stances from the last several centuries as both logical and emotional fodder. Well played.


Practically all of these ideas (on both sides) go back to ancient philosophy, so actually thousands of years - although we are of course more directly familiar with their more recent forms.

Normative morality ("thou shalt, because you should") is a pretty distinctly Judeo-Christian thing.
While eudaimonic morality ("do this, because it will make you happy") is more from Socrates and his ilk.

'Jesus' here (as a clever moralist) mixes up both forms of morality, appealing both to guilt and a false sense of reward (or self-interest).
'Satan' also follows a form of eudaimonic morality (pursuing genuine happiness), but differs from 'Jesus' on how such happiness is to be defined and obtained.
This parallel's LaVey's 'undefiled wisdom' vs 'hypocritical self-deceit'.


'Jesus's' view is slanted strongly to promoting social interests, often at the expense of the individual. For example, he identifies true happiness with unselfish love and compassion, and views smart self-interest as hurting one deep inside.

First, he suggests the possibility of something like divine judgment (the Christian view) or Karma (the Hindu/Buddhist one), as a means of justifying his view that true happiness absolutely requires a life of extreme self-sacrifice and love.

When a naturalistic worldview is required (with just natural cause and effect, no supernatural Karma or reward), 'Jesus' gets clever and borrows an argument from Socrates and the Stoics (which has close parallels to Buddhism).

The argument is that an enlightened sage (or Buddha/Christ) would transcend his egoism by integrating his ego with the community of life, as a necessary step on the way to integrating with the whole Universe and feeling supreme bliss and happiness.

This social integration necessarily means venerating certain 'spiritual' ideals, such as justice and compassion, even when these clash with rational self-interest and what an individual can smartly get away with (including emotional costs). So it is (potentially at least) a subtle way to undermine the individual.

In asking individuals to emulate such an altruistic Sage, such a philosophy negates the reality of everyday carnal life.

The path to happiness does not go in a straight line, argues Satan - even if the mystical ideal of universal love is the culmination of true happiness (a VERY deep issue cleverly sidestepped here), the path to true happiness beginning now involves accepting, rather than rejecting, one's 'darker' impulses which lead to pleasure and personal gratification - but within the bounds of a rational egoism, not a love-based altruism which sacrifices the individual to the common good (even with the ingenious con that this is the best way to achieve real happiness).

Ego boundaries are best kept strong and healthy, in other words - rather than mixed up with others' in sympathy and pity, leading to unnecessary self-sacrifice and extra suffering.

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#3340 - 01/11/08 12:57 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
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Again, i agree with Octavious on this one. And i have a serious question to ALL members of this site. Why the fuck are you coming here to talk about the christian god and jesus FUCK!! Incase you haven't noticed this is a SATANIC "group". Why the fuck would we want to talk, read, or think about christianity on this site????? If i want to hear what christians god worrshipers thought today, i would call my grandma!! YES, shitty talk of this type seriously weakens the integrity of this site. FUCKING STOP......."destroy yourself, see wgo gives a fuck" Lamb Of God
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#3367 - 01/11/08 08:22 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Perhaps because we are trying to better ourselves and grow. Learn all facets of thought. Delve into something that intrigues us. Maybe you might benefit personally by removing your "Satan is my co-pilot" bumper sticker, taking some nail polish remover to your black nails, and some make up remover to your overly lined eyes and explore more. Satanism isn't all about peeing on church doorsteps because you are sickened by them or wearing your offensive anti-christian tee shirt. I've seen your kind of Satanism more times than the number of hairs I have growing from my nut sac. Usually it's pissed off teenagers who just discovered the Satanic Bible or black metal and think that is the way it is. Or wannabes looking for attention or the weakling hoping to put the fear of Satan into the bullies that beat them up on the school grounds. Use this site as a tool to grow and learn in your path of Satanism. Otherwise, you will be sent back to your evil myspace world of like minded, devil horn displaying, dripping blood crucufix, wannabe playground.
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#3376 - 01/11/08 10:03 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Euronymous Offline
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I concur with you totally on this issue. I too can careless about anything Christian because it has no part in my life period. I can careless what Jesus would have said to Satan; and if I did care about such dialogue, all I would have to do is read the Christian Bible. Which seems as pointless as the original post itself. Who cares about the words of Jesus. This is akin to a Christian trying to argue with a known Satanist; the Christian does it just to be a self-righteous dick and as far as I'm concerned the Satanist shouldn't even waste his very breath on such insignificant and futile conversation. It leads nowhere and accomplishes nothing.
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" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

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#3377 - 01/11/08 10:07 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Euronymous Offline
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A simple word of wisdom: "Jesus should NEVER have a place on this site, for to bring him into a topic is highly.....shall I say 'Christian-like'?."
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" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

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#3378 - 01/11/08 11:00 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Euronymous]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
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Finally a real response. Since you were so fast to judge me, i just want to fucking laugh at you. First off i have never visited a "myspace" website... EVER..nor will i ever. I actully wear very little make-up. To make this real simple for ya, i don't publicly exploit my Santanistic nature. I get more pleasure when people are oblivious of whom stands behind them in the groccery store line. True i once was this little" goth ass punck bitch", but i have long since transcended for the mentality a a punk ass kid!!! I'am going on 30 yrs. of age, i no longer give a fuck what people think when they look at me. FYI, i was the bully on the school ground...done 3yrs institutionalized for it.(not that i'am proud of that) You only make yourself look like a fool to me, by jumping to conclusions when you have no real facts to base them on. As for expanding my mind to christianity....NO THANKS....been there and it was the worst expirience of my life. Oh ya, i haven't literally pissed on a church since i was like 15 yrs. old, yet the memory sill entertains my mind.
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#3379 - 01/11/08 11:18 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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You're irritating. You have the vocab an writing skill of a boy of 7 and the personality of a blueberry scone. You're just going to get peoples backs up if you carry on like this, now you're clearly not happy here (or wanted) so why don't you get lost and go elsewhere. Also pissing on a church means sod all, every drunken college guy in Hampshire has done that (It's the only building for 1.5 miles between the housing and the pub, not even a tree or wall to piss against).
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3383 - 01/12/08 12:48 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 26
Loc: somewhere on this giant dirt b...
A blueberry scone huh...thats original.Now your right i haven't been to happy lately and find this hypocritical site did'nt improve my demeanor.As for my typing skills, i can thank my cat for helping me look stupid that way, he steps on the keyboard alot.... Sorry about that one, i shall be more careful. Why do so many of you take me litteraly about pissing on churches, i was only being a smart ass.i haven't done that for like 15 yrs., so get over it.NO i'am not going away just yet. And frankly, you are irritating me right now, guess turn about is fair play.
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#3388 - 01/12/08 11:55 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You know what, you're probably going to get banned soon. You get peoples backs up and say stupid things. Luckily this forum isn't a democracy nor does it have to be fair, we (and by we I mean the collective quality of this forum) could just ban you because we would be happier without you. Change your attitude or someone who, unlike myself, owning a moderators coverted ban button, may be the next person you piss off. Don't take this the wrong way, it's not a threat nor is it me trying to be horrible, I'm warning you that you're seriously pissing people off.

As for the cat on the keyboard... why didn't you REREAD the post after the animal jumped onto your keyboard? I would.

Basically if you're here to argue and get people backs up just leave now, you won't enjoy your time here, people will get angry at you and you'll get banned. If you're here to talk and discuss things that fine. Hell this is probably the most lenient forum I've ever been on, but we don't like stupidity here or pretentiousness.

Something to think about at least.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3398 - 01/12/08 04:02 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
This reply is for those who have misinterpreted my position on this piece.

Let me be very clear in saying that the study of the Christian Bible is more than worth the time. I've read several versions of it several times, in addition to the Book of Mormon, the Torah, the Qu'ran, the Bagivadghita, and many other of the world's major religious works. I am better informed because of it. Reading is rarely a waste.

What I object to is the caricaturization of Christ and Satan to suit the author's needs. This is fine for fiction, but hardly belongs in a serious forum discussing philosophy.

Octavius
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#3412 - 01/13/08 12:14 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Honestly I would disagree with you about the Bible.

As a book for moral codes it advocates slavery, prejudice, sexism, animal sacrifice, the death penalty, war and subjugation. If forbids sexual desire, procreation, free will and critical thinking to name but a few things.

As a book for entertainment, the main purpose of books in my opinion. The Bible is difficult to follow, extremely predictable, astoundingly boring and long winded, it's got a tremendous amount of filler and the chracters are painfully one dimensional.

I see reading the Bible as being a waste of time for me in my current state because as far as I can see there is only one benefit to reading the Bible and that is that we need more Athiests and nothing converts someone faster than reading the damn Bible. This is the only good thing to come from that dreadfull book.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3519 - 01/16/08 02:45 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Bridgett Leavitt Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 26
Loc: somewhere on this giant dirt b...
Okay, Tornado Creator, you..i admit are right. Yes, i was coming across in such a manner that would "get peoples backs up". From time to time i get a little out of control trying to get my point across. I realize that getting the people of this "group" pissed at me is really not what i'am looking for. Yet the christian bible and ALL THINGS CHRISTIAN LIKE...i stil and always will hate them with every fiber of my being. And my opinions are not ignorant to me because i HAVE read the bible and the Book Of Mormon, so i do have an educated knowledge of what it is i hate so much.So when i first came across these forums, thinking that christianity would'nt bother me here.. well i was a little dissapointed and rather pissed off. I apoligize for getting on you nerves.And i hope there are a least a few people whom i can talk to on thus site who will embrace "Christian Bashing" with me, i know now you are not that person. And as for why i did not reread my post..well again i was pissed off and acted in haste..we or (I) as a human do, do rather stupid impulsive shit from time to time.
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#3521 - 01/16/08 03:52 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Bridgett Leavitt]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Fair enough.

I make fun of religion from time to time, but honestly, I've outgrown 'Christian Bashing', I will debate morals with a Christian politely from time to time but I feel like I'm granting too much freedom for religion. I tend to just give criticism and move on now. This doesn't mean I can't laugh at religion, hell, if it's not there for my ammusement... why the fuck not? It should be.

That's my outlook on religion and I'm sticking to it.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3530 - 01/16/08 05:44 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
A reasonable understanding of Christian myths and philosophy is essential for any kind of progress with Satanism. It is important to remember that Satanism (in any form; theistic, LaVeyan, etc.) is a post-Christian religion, much in the same way that Christianity itself is a post-Jewish religion (plus numerous pre-Christian pagan religions besides). In each case, the myths and symbolism of the parent religion are recycled and re-purposed for the new one. So the Jewish Passover festival becomes the Eucharist, The pagan winter solstice festivals becomes incorporated into Christmas etc., etc.

So it is with Satanism, which in many respects can be seen to be as much as an outgrowing of, as it is a reaction against Christianity per se. Hence some degree of appreciation of where Christianity came from, how it developed, important themes and so on will certainly be useful in developing a deeper, more nuanced understanding of Satanism -- rather than it simply being a shallow rebuke of Christian fundamentalism, which ultimately isn't really going to get you very far in life.

Stag

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#3532 - 01/16/08 08:47 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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Loc: No Fixed Address
I prefer to look at Satanism as having little or nothing to do with modern religions, however there's no secret that Islam and Christianity have caused alot of Satanists to question religion just because they have seen the strange shit that religion is trying to do or justify.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3596 - 01/20/08 04:56 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
Despite what some might argue, Satanism did not spring fully formed like Athena from the brow of Anton LaVey. It has a long and convoluted history stretching back many centuries, perhaps even to the dawn of thought itself.

This heritage is readily apparent to anyone who has studied Satanic Philosophy for any length of time. Thematically at least, the most obvious influence is from Christianity itself; Satan is a Christian symbol, let's not pretend otherwise.

Into the mix we also have any number of pagan influences, some filtered through the lens of Christianity, others more directly via history books, comparative religious studies, etc. On top of this we have add healthy dose of post-Enlightenment philosophy and a practical approach to magick as popularised by Crowley, et al. (being itself a mash-up of alchemy, quabbalah, yoga etc.)

Once you understand where Satanism has come from, you can begin to think about where it's going, which admittedly is a whole other subject entirely.

Stag

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#3607 - 01/20/08 07:09 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
Banned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
What I object to is the caricaturization of Christ and Satan to suit the author's needs. This is fine for fiction, but hardly belongs in a serious forum discussing philosophy.


By this standard, Plato's Dialogues do not count as philosophy, as Plato blatantly 'caricaturized' the views of Socrates to support his own metaphysical beliefs (such as survival after death and reincarnation - Socrates himself may have been agnostic about this sort of thing).
He certainly caricatured Socrates' opponents in debate, the vilified Sophists.
And - shock, horror! - he utilised a fictional scenario for what was indeed a serious discussion of philosophy.

Actually, by this standard, even the biblical Gospels can be classed as a 'caricaturization' of Jesus.
If you agree that there was a real man whom the biblical Jesus was based on (which is somewhat in doubt), then surely the gospels are a fictional caracature?
Either way, they are mostly fictional - as was a lot of ancient symbolic literature.

Then there are the contradictions.
Matthew, Mark and Luke portray a slightly-more-than-human-but-not-God Jesus, while in the Gospel of John he is definitely God Incarnate.

And there are the 'gnostic' Gospels. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus is very much a Buddha-type figure. In the Gospel of Judas, he has the ability to metamorphise into a child. In others, he is a guide offering a model of initiation into the esoteric 'inner Mysteries' of the gnostics, in the style of the old pagan Mystery cults (the source of the term 'mysticism').

St Paul's Jesus was a figure who appeared to him in a vision of light.
Is this really the same dude we are talking about?
Or is this figure more of a chameleon, adapted to the individual's needs even at the very formation of orthodoxy?

The German theologian Rudolf Bultmann called this the 'deep well effect'. Looking for the 'real' Jesus is like looking down a well - all we actually see is our own reflection...


And as for Satan... in the Book of Job he is definitely not the personification of evil. That definition has to wait until the New Testament.
And even then, he is oddly devoid of horns and that famous pitchfork. These were a medieval addition based on a parody of pagan gods such as Pan and Triton.

So, who is the 'real' Jesus?
Or the 'real' Satan?

None. And all.
What became Christian orthodoxy was originally only one branch of the faith, and set to rigidly define its canon and dogma.

Unlike mainstream Christianity, the Gnostics had no problem with writing their own interpretations of Christ into (many, many) later gospels.
This was largely because they viewed him as an archetypal, spiritual figure ('Docetism'), rather than a real flesh-and-blood man with divine attributes. So he wasn't 'set in stone', unlike what the Church made of him.
Thus, the 'real' Jesus, as Timothy Freke later put it, is a red herring.
The same goes for Satan (or any other fictional demon).


Of course, a person may be interested in the original religious portrayal of a deity. It makes little sense to look to a modern dialogue such as this in search of such historical accuracy, when it was never intended to be anything other than an elaborate postmodern discussion of ethics (which would be far less interesting if it stuck rigidly to Christian tradition).
It is not a history of religion lesson.
There is plenty of material available on that already.


As for the dialogue.... actually, it was originally between 'A' and 'B' (as is not unknown in academic philosophy).
What you object to so vehemently is a last-minute 'replace all' job.
If you really don't like the names - just copy the dialogue into your favorite word processor and replace them.


Edited by Mequa (01/20/08 08:00 PM)
Edit Reason: Rudolf Bultmann

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#3610 - 01/20/08 09:33 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
Your above reply is so eloquent, yet nothing you wrote changes my opinion of the original piece. Ms. Mequa, why is it so important to you that I appreciate this post as something thought-provoking? Does it bother you that much to have me criticize this particular piece? Just curious...
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So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#3622 - 01/21/08 12:17 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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I just found it to be a humourous way of spending 10 minutes and I think everyone here is putting far to much significance into it, significance it doesn't deserve.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3714 - 01/27/08 04:13 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
Meq Offline
Banned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
Your above reply is so eloquent, yet nothing you wrote changes my opinion of the original piece. Ms. Mequa, why is it so important to you that I appreciate this post as something thought-provoking? Does it bother you that much to have me criticize this particular piece? Just curious...


Should it bother me?
I saw this as a creative exercise, which may serve as a potential springboard towards deeper thought and insight regarding the serious meta-ethical and epistemological questions raised in this dialogue.
If these questions (or the style and setting in which they are raised) do not raise your interest, however (and most people fall into this category anyway - hardcore philosophy can be pretty arcane), then you doubtless know what kind of things are more thought-provoking to you and stimulate your interest.

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#3719 - 01/28/08 03:24 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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I found it interesting personally and could relate to the points that where made in the conversation but I was already approaching it with a sense of humor and low expectations of any serious meaning because it was clearly connected to religion which I feel has far to much standing in todays society which it clearly doesn't deserve.

It's not a great thought provoking work but it's not entirely without merit. Those that don't want to mock religion of see it as immature and of little value confound me. Why not mock religion and act immature in a controlled manner like this, it is at the very least an outlet for our feelings and thoughts but perhaps this topic should have been placed in the General Discussions area after all.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#3720 - 01/28/08 10:15 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Meq]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Mequa
As for the dialogue.... actually, it was originally between 'A' and 'B' (as is not unknown in academic philosophy).
What you object to so vehemently is a last-minute 'replace all' job.
If you really don't like the names - just copy the dialogue into your favorite word processor and replace them.

Then the real question should be this… What did you expect to gain by changing the names to Jesus and Satan?

To some it would seem you might have done this to try to make this piece more popular on this site, to fit it in… When you have to wrap something to sell it chances are that “it” is fairly worthless… Some of the best gifts come in the plainest wrappings…

To me this rushed wrapping to sell it to us, is reason enough to skip over this piece…

J.M.H.O.

Peace

~T~
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#5297 - 03/11/08 02:12 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: ta2zz]
TheMask Offline
member


Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
I thought that it was a fucking great piece you wrote there. Highly interesting and very intelligently written. One could think thats actually Jesus himself talking.

I dont get all the criticism youre getting but i for one liked it alot. It obviously took skill to write this.

 Originally Posted By: Bridgett Leavitt
To make this real simple for ya, i don't publicly exploit my Santanistic nature.


Santa...?

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#5367 - 03/12/08 09:04 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TheMask]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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Aaah yes, Santa, or Diet-God as I like to call him.

A guy with a big beard who watches over you, sees everthing you do, decides if you are a good person, rewards those who are good, punishes those who are not... if it's presents or coal it's Santa, if it's heaven or eternal torture it's God... Santa is clearly much more forgiving.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#5370 - 03/12/08 09:23 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Aaah yes, Santa, or Diet-God as I like to call him.

A guy with a big beard who watches over you, sees everthing you do, decides if you are a good person, rewards those who are good, punishes those who are not... if it's presents or coal it's Santa, if it's heaven or eternal torture it's God... Santa is clearly much more forgiving.


Santa and God also has this in common:
The older and smarter we get, the more we question, the more we realize Santa was fake, just an invention to keep us good little people. But unfortunately there is still something beautiful about christmas season.

Then there are people who believe elves are real, or were real.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/12/08 09:24 AM)
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~~352~~


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#5371 - 03/12/08 10:26 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
TheMask Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
Very interesting comparison, i havent noticed that much before.
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#5603 - 03/14/08 07:15 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TheMask]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
It's a common Atheist comparison that has spread recently, particually on YouTube.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6167 - 03/22/08 02:22 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
rubaestellae Offline
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Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Australia
I've always found the Socratic Dialogue style of philosophical writing interesting - though Socrates never really pushed my buttons. Sure I can see why people may get upset with the whole Jesus/Satan conversation, but I wouldnt not read it just because it had the word Jesus in it.
That being said maybe next time instead use Patriarch/Adversary or something like that :).
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#6357 - 03/25/08 10:26 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: rubaestellae]
Kon Offline
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Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
The piece was good, interesting and humorous.
As far as anecdotal Satanism and Xtian philosophy are concerned, I draw conclusively that the piece is far less educational or mind opening. The euphemisms, characters, philosophic stands, derogatory will, and overall grammar were mediocre expressions at best. Unless I know the author, it takes far more education and a lot less emotion to create something of philosophic nature which would make me think they had a breath of wisdom in them.

I'd say it was a well rounded mad lib, the authors intent was to be taken humorously, though average even so.
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A God complex isn't likely to show itself.

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#9028 - 05/25/08 09:16 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Euronymous]
VictorGrigorii Offline
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Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Sarasota, FL
You present Jesus as a moronic, mystic hippy, and rightfully so. But at one point you presented Satan as an irrational Attilla the Hun, that particular point being the matter of acts of violence or force perpetrated against others for one's own benefit. How evil is it if it benefits the individual? WHICH individual? To be concerned for your own interests is one thing, but at the expense of another individual? This is a little cloudy for me. I have studied Rand extensively, and she would resent strongly being combined with the likes of Nietzsche and Hume. As for the WWJD comment, I got a little hotheaded over this point on Legion for Satan (I never knew Christianity was so important to Satanism that entire threads need be devoted to bashing it in order to maintain activity). Good point, BUT think of this; if you didn't care about what Jesus thought or what Christians thought, would you adopt the name of Christ's adversary as the name of your chosen path? YOu can go on forever about how Satan is actually pre-Christian in the sense of all of pre-christianity's gods being demonized, etc, etc. But the fact is this; the specific character called Satan is the Hebrew bad guy, and therefore is Christ's adversary, not detached from Christianity. Therefore, Christianity is going to come into play at one time or another. All in all, though, good piece, very provocative and very enjoyable.
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#10591 - 08/10/08 11:33 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: rubaestellae]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Originally Posted By: rubaestellae

That being said maybe next time instead use Patriarch/Adversary or something like that :).


"Adversary?" You mean "Satan"? So it's The Adversary versus The Adversary!

That would get confusing real fast.
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#11176 - 09/03/08 05:32 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Euronymous]
morgoth Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Loved it. Insightful and entertaining. Well written piece.
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#11637 - 09/20/08 06:30 AM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: Octavius]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
 Originally Posted By: Octavius

What I object to is the caricaturization of Christ and Satan to suit the author's needs. This is fine for fiction, but hardly belongs in a serious forum discussing philosophy.


I agree with Octavius. This dialogue isn't how I imagine this conversation would go at all. And the jesus character seems to have been designed to fail.

As for Plato, sure I guess you can call Plato's dialogues philosophy, but they're piss. Plato constructed Socrates' opponents to fail. And when all the questions of the socratic method are yes or no, it's so easy to win. he's leading his opponent to fail. A simple yes or no is not suitable for most questions in philosophy. And notice how plato's own ideas in the books are not given the same scrutiny.

The post was an interesting idea. I think it would be more interesting if a satanist wrote satan's lines and a christian wrote jesus' lines.

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#11667 - 09/20/08 07:07 PM Re: A Dialogue between Jesus and Satan [Re: coelentrate]
coelentrate Offline
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Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
And the same applies even if it weren't really written with the charachters of jesus and satan in mind.
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