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#16291 - 12/16/08 12:57 PM Re: A [Re: Jake999]
The Zebu Offline
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Well it was 1970. You crazy old drug-nuts were always dropping acid and snorting any substance with an acronym.

I'm joking of course. I really can't speak for something like that, though...
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#16294 - 12/16/08 02:18 PM Re: A [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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I do agree that interesting things do happen and if you can't repeat it and provide at least some serious evidence, it will never be more than interesting.

I can trigger some state of mind when/before sleeping that makes me experience pretty interesting things.
When I was young, there was this book out from a dude called Monroe or something, on astral travel. Down here it was one of those books that were popular for as long as people did buy into it. Anyways, traveling around at night seemed like a pretty interesting thing for a kid of that age and I sure knew some bedrooms I'd pass on my nightly tour of the universe. Needless to say I didn't travel far, astral travel is bullshit for people that can't afford a plane-ticket.

But this exercise to get into the mood, something hypnotic, boat-water-waves stuff, did trigger something in me. I get into some sort of state of mind which is a combination of lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis but like with all things in my life, slightly different. So, I am in reality, lucid, limited at some aspects and experiencing pretty weird phenomena. It's been some years since my last visit and although I'm not going to say I have a 100% garantee to trigger it, in at least 70% of the cases, I get into that state.

I could create a whole belief system because of it, different plane, entities, consciousness-body detachment. I could even go that far and use demons, ghosts and hellish explanations but although it freaked me out the first times, I do prefer to think it is my brain playing with me. I prefer to disbelieve. And it is indeed, nothing more but interesting. If I wanted to believe this, I could not do else but believing all the rest too; the arguments are identical pro and contra.

D.

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#16314 - 12/16/08 05:22 PM Spirituality without Beliefs - Rational Mystic [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Interresting, as it seems that many of us finaly have such "unusaul/unexplainable" experiences.

More and more I'm convince that they're just modified states of cousciousness. It seems to fit Diavolo's experience and some of mines. But in the case of Jake, no rational explanation.

And of course it's wise not basing one'w whole life on 30sec of it.

But just two remarks :

1°) When such very troubling experience happens when your life seems pointless and you're reading the bible, or in any other religious context, it's very hard to not associate it with some "God contact".

2°)It's part of the rational process to "imagine" some explanations to unexplained things. Just a matter of putting some hypothesis on the table... to be verified. How two people can see the same unreal thing at the same time?
Brain-to-brain communication could explain it, as it could also explain the extract of TSB indicating it's possible to implement idea in some distant mind.
If one wants to dig in this hypothesis, rationally, he must belief in it at least a little bit. How could he find the desire to make the researches? What motivates him if not the desire to prove he' right?

Or one can unbelief and limit himself in destroying others hypothesis. It's also very useful !





Edited by Fabiano (12/16/08 05:34 PM)
Edit Reason: Put the subject back

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#16316 - 12/16/08 05:36 PM Re: A [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Jake's experience is somewhat difficult to find a theory for; two people seeing the exact same thing while not being drunk or drugged. The only thing I can come up with, and admitting it's just something to make it rational to me, is play of light. Light and shadow can do crazy things with our brain. Still I got no clue how real the fire was, so it's an explanation of something I think went on, not necessarily what went on in reality.

I don't know if others experienced it, but if you take enough XTC (probably not for all kinds), think in figures like swallowing at least five, you get mild hallucinations, fata morgana stuff. I'm not sure if it works during the daytime too, my drugs-experiments were mostly at night but I've seen weird stuff when walking home, caused by a brain getting chemically fucked up and starting to compose unreal pictures but they seemed so real that it was fascinating. Still, like a good old fata morgana, the moment I was too close or wanted to touch, poof, it was gone. Knowing it was the drugs sure helps recognize the wonders the mind is capable of.
I'm 100% sure in many non-drug cases it is doing the same without a person knowing.

D.

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#16321 - 12/16/08 06:12 PM Re: A [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Our own brain produces narcotics. I think you can have some control on them by "playing with your mind", entering in some modified state of consciousness.

It's a very personal experience to learn to play with one's own brain. To me the magical systems of beliefs, by the mean of symbols, images, etc worked for transmitting some knowledge about these "magical" things, about how to play with your mind and your brain. Some kind of empirical guide which works but explain nothing...

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#16325 - 12/16/08 06:59 PM Re: A [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Still I got no clue how real the fire was, so it's an explanation of something I think went on, not necessarily what went on in reality..


How "real" was the fire? Well... there was no heat. Other than that, it was just as if the wall was on fire. A curtain of fire. If you have a hearth, stoke it up to a roaring blaze and look into its center. That will give you and idea of what the whole wall looked like.

I also want to stress that I am not given to having visions... never have been. This was a once in a lifetime occurence.
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#16378 - 12/17/08 02:58 PM Re: A [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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The brain dislikes formlessness and tries to make sense out of it by transforming the info it gets, or parts of it, into understandable images. It's what happens when you look at clouds; shapes, animals and about everything imaginable starts to appear. Smoke some weed and watch the clouds to even improve that experience.

The same thing happens with some ghost spottings, shadow and light suddenly start to look like people. Remember the devil in the Twin Towers? The shipload of Mary spottings.
I experimented with it when painting, using only gradients of a certain color (dark red to light red as an example) and then randomly putting it on canvas. I never painted anything I, afterwards, didn't see stuff into.

It's fairly possible (hypothesising again) that a certain source of light, combined with something affecting it, like rain on the window allowing it in, created a certain effect on the wall that your (both) brains interpreted as something similar or the closests known to your brains, fire in this case.

It's why I have this theory that if ever anything totally unknown would appear to us, we'd not even see it as it is.

D.

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#16384 - 12/17/08 04:57 PM Re: A [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

The same thing happens with some ghost spottings, shadow and light suddenly start to look like people.

Although this is quite true, and I too prefer to rationalize everything I can, I don't think the primitive monkeys that we still are have the means to explain everything that happens just yet. Hell I doubt we can even detect much of what happens. All we have are 5 randomly evolved senses.

 Quote:

It's why I have this theory that if ever anything totally unknown would appear to us, we'd not even see it as it is.

They say the indians could not make heads or tails of the first tallmast sailing ships they saw. They just could not wrap their minds around something so alien, and could not tell where the boundaries of the ship ended and the surrounding landscape began. Although this may be more true or less true than reported, (some say they just didn't know they were man made, others say they couldn't see them whatsoever) there is certainly at least a grain of truth to this.

I also apply this idea to the possibility of alien life. We could probably walk right past a UFO and not realize it. It would probably be just so alien that the mind would not be able to place the boundaries/labels necessary to categorize/objectify the data.
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#16387 - 12/17/08 05:14 PM Re: A [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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But if we can't perceive it (including technological perception) it is just the same as it not being there. There could be an alien sitting next to me now but if I can't see, feel, smell or hear it, it simply is not. We could argue that planet X was there before we perceived it but another way of looking at it is stating that perception creates reality. So, our consciousness might not perceive the world that is, but create the world that is. Darn, now that sounds godly.

I don't know if you ever read Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott. At some levels we are this square and can only percieve stuff affected by our limitations. If anything multidimensional pops up here, we'll perceive only the 3-dimensional parts. We got brain/senses that are constructed to work in a 3-dimensional reality and they can never surpass those limitations, except maybe at an abstract level.

D.

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#16389 - 12/17/08 05:21 PM Re: A [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

But if we can't perceive it (including technological perception) it is just the same as it not being there.

Absolutely, for all intents and purposes.

 Quote:

So, our consciousness might not perceive the world that is, but create the world that is.

There will always be variance between subjective reality and objective reality. I don't know if just totally ignoring the latter is such a good idea, though.
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#16391 - 12/17/08 05:27 PM Re: A [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The brain dislikes formlessness and tries to make sense out of it by transforming the info it gets, or parts of it, into understandable images.


LOL! Ok... but at 1 AM in a sleepy country village in New Mexico in 1970, in TWO people in the same bed, who have never used any form of illegal drug, had no alcohol, we quietly talking after having sex, there's very little the mind has to make sense of when the wall across from you looks like:



Decades out, it's still a fresh memory, and to today's mind, we try rationalizing it in today's terms. That's natural. I'll probably never know what caused it, and like I said, I draw no message from the event. It was just an interesting event that someone else might have the tendency to ascribe some supernatural meaning to.
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#16392 - 12/17/08 05:28 PM Re: A [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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It isn't a good idea to just totally ignore one but perception = reality. Now the real question would be; what is reality? Although we don't even know if reality is understandable to us, we do need a consensus on what reality is to us humans. We just need that to be able to function.

And this consensus is the consciousness that I said creates the world as is. Of course anyone is allowed to view their subjective reality as supreme compared to the consensus reality. To a degree it might lead to new discoveries expanding the consensus reality we know. But the majority of those subjective realities are simply wrong.

D.

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#16393 - 12/17/08 05:33 PM Re: A [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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After having sex Jake, now it all makes sense. Your neurons were still firing. ;\)

Seriously, I can't find make any good explanation for it, it's interesting.

D.

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#16397 - 12/17/08 06:01 PM Re: Spirituality without Beliefs - Rational Mystic [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
So what you mean is I am fooling myself? And that by believing what I do I am lying to myself? How can we value reality when nobody knows what "real" is? Is reality different for everyone? Or if there is one overall truth, how can we tell what it may be?

Your insults are taken lightly, but by saying what you are, you're referring to the idea that what I believe is false. Period. You've said yourself you cannot dis-prove my beliefs, yet you still say I'm full of "self deceit" and that it doesn't lead to reality, when you can't know that what I believe is in fact a false reality.

So do I value reality? As far as I know what reality is, yes, I do.
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#16399 - 12/17/08 06:19 PM Re: Spirituality without Beliefs - Rational Mystic [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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What I said to you in my reply, post #16254, was a bit of friendly advice. A rhetorical question designed to make you think.

Obviously it failed.

Let me offer one more thing for you to think about, and try not to let your feelings get hurt this time;

That someone can not disprove something means absolutely nothing. If you are more interested in your truth than what is actually true, then fine. Have at it. Just don't expect anyone else to care, or give you the time of day.
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