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#20108 - 02/11/09 12:13 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Dan_Dread]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
What if I am "My own... Personal... Jesus"?

I guess I'm not an Atheist... by any definition.
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#20109 - 02/11/09 12:35 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: daevid777]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I don't call myself an Atheist for a few reasons.

I believe in a cosmic creator/destroyer. He is named Azathoth. He sits in the center of ultimate chaos, piping away on thin reeds and shitting himself, like all blind retard-gods do.

Silly mythology aside, I actually do ascribe the cosmic creation/destruction idea to a "God", although this "God" is rather impersonal, and by no means anthropomorphic, and lies beyond the sphere of human comprehension.

So when I get into arguments with religious people, they usually give a "deer in the headlights" look when I tell them I'm not an Atheist. Because they're so used to viewing the idea of "God" as this limited, dogmatic definition, they typically shit themselves whenever anybody presents an idea called "GOD" that does not fit the mold of what they've been told all their life of what "GOD" is supposed to be.

As far as a PERSONAL god goes though, that role is left to myself.
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#20110 - 02/11/09 12:49 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
It doesn't matter what properties you cook up in your imagination for your 'god' to have. It's all the same.

Faith is faith is faith. The beginning of all unwisdom.
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#20128 - 02/11/09 05:34 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Lets not forget that all 'Atheism' means is 'a lack of a belief in god/s', or more specifically, a lack of belief in a personal god;ie one that watches you and cares, on some level, about your well being.


On other forums I've watched the discussion of Atheism go round in circles, for any of the following reasons:

1. Person X sees a difference between (A) believing there is no god and (B) not believing there is a god; meanwhile, Person Z refuses to acknowledge, or is unable to understand, that distinction.

2. Person X sees a difference between (A) believing in a personal god and (B) believing in an impersonal principle of order in the universe; meanwhile, Person Z refuses to acknowledge, or is unable to understand, that distinction.

3. Person X sees a difference between (A) believing in a god and (B) believing in an afterlife; meanwhile, Person Z refuses to acknowledge, or is unable to understand, that distinction.

4. Person X sees a difference between (A) believing in a god and (B) believing reality has domains no scientific apparatus will ever detect; meanwhile, Person Z refuses to acknowledge, or is unable to understand, that distinction.

In my view, Person X in each of the above scenarios is exercising discrimination, one of my Nine Virtues of the Satanic Mind. Person Z either lacks that virtue or refuses to admit possessing it due to some ulterior motive, such as mild (or not so mild) trollishness.

As for myself:

1. I claim there is no such thing as a personal god because I don't see a reason to claim otherwise and I tend to favor Occam's Razor.

2. I claim mathematics as the impersonal principle of order in the universe, and I strongly suspect we haven't begun to scratch the surface of that claim.

3. I claim there is an afterlife because claiming otherwise irritates me.

4. I claim reality has domains no scientific apparatus will ever detect, and I employ greater magic as a way of testing my hypothesis.

Obviously number 3 hinges on number 4.

I consider myself an Atheist.

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#20134 - 02/11/09 07:29 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Zoid]
ortho Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France.Paris
Hy!
There a conception in gnostic text:
"The Son of God of Hell,who has created the world, and every things it contains climbed up to the Holy Sky changed in appearence of a beautiful angel of light: Lucifer.He told them that what they lived was no good and it will be better to come on earth with Him,where He will give them many things, beautiful women and the possibility to gouvern and to have power on others, to exercice themselves with gold and money. They followed Him and Felt down IN new clothes which were in reality shealths of flesh. For live to live they are looking for Light wich really is inside themselves, through remembering". (text from Gnostic School or Church during XII and XIII centuries, in the south of France, destroyed by catholic crusade,"La croisade des Albigeois".

It is the fact of reincarnation;

In Vedantic tradition from India the individuality has 4 goals:
"Dharma" (Duty of parents,children and religon -cast, which are the expression of the Universal Order, or Cosmic Law),
Artha, Wealth which is necessary to live and to preserve your family of sickness,etc...it gives you a confortable home to live, and to get:
"Kama", pleasure, in food ,sex ("Kama sutra"), music, sport...etc
But they have to be resorbed or to conduct, to drive you to:
"Moksha", the Liberation of the cycle of birth and rebirth.("Samsara").
In concern with rebirth, you have to study this question with Tibetan Lamas, witch have a practice of "necromancie"( you can also have look on the experiences of some "medium" through Spiritism.
I've practised a little bit with them and I've been astonished...but I think to be realistic on these planes.

Eliphas Levi in "Ritual and Dogma of the High Magick", explained how He did to invoque (-cke?) spirit out of death...

May be there is some preolpe who can accept to tel us his-her- own experience?
Bye!

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#20135 - 02/11/09 07:46 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Zoid]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Indecision is a weakness, quite counterproductive. That is part of why I think 'agnosticism' is shit

I understand and agree on this view, but at the same time I understand and agree with this :

 Quote:
It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would be tightly shut, impervious to the most strenuous poundings of a thousand Lucifers.
That's why I want to keep a little share of this doubt with me. I know I don't know and there is no mean to know...



 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Atheism is saying 'I don't believe in god/s' No more, no less.
...
Lets not forget that all 'atheism' means is 'a lack of a belief in god/s', or more specifically, a lack of belief in a personal god;ie one that watches you and cares, on some level, about your well being.

In this perspective, I'm not an Atheist because I believe that there is a God that watches me and care at all levels about my well being. It's my inner God which I could call also call my "SELF" or my own God.
Nevertheless, I think I'm in line with TSB :
 Quote:
It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of "God", as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best. Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him. God is, to some, benign - to others, terrifying. To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live.


Using the Zoid canvas for myself I would say that I'm:
1. not believing there is a god (external & personal one); and believing in my inner God which is my source for moral & ethical behaviour.
2. believing in an impersonal principle of order in the universe; in more subtil planes of the reality than those usually percieved.
3. prefering to believe there is not afterlife because it helps me keeping that feeling of emergency that it's HERE and NOW or nowhere and never. Life is so short!
4. believing reality has domains no scientific apparatus has detected yet.

So, I personnaly could be viewed as an Atheist (cause I don't need a dad taking care of me) and as a believer (because through my "mystical" experiences I know that the inner God exists). Having walked a little bit on the RHP, I even have not much difficulties in saying "I'm my own personnal Jesus" ;\)

I'm just unspeakable...

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#20137 - 02/11/09 08:08 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Fabiano]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

1. not believing there is a god (external & personal one); and believing in my inner God which is my source for moral & ethical behaviour.

3. prefering to believe there is not afterlife because it helps me keeping that feeling of emergency that it's HERE and NOW or nowhere and never. Life is so short!


Do you believe your inner God will cease to exist when your body no longer sustains life?

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#20138 - 02/11/09 08:50 AM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Zoid]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Honestly, rationally I don't know. But even if I would know, what would it change for me ?

Would I act in a different way ?

Perhaps this inner God is a Sparkle of that powerful
force which permeates and balances the universe impersonnal
and this Sparkle will return to it's origin.

Or perhaps this inner God is just something part of the body and not accessible by science. In that case, no body anymore, no God anymore...

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#20160 - 02/11/09 02:54 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If religion wasn't needed it wouldn't be there. Evolutionary it had to make sense at some level. Personally I divide humans into two classes; the believers and the non-believers. Without going into trivialities that certain things are assumptions one can't avoid.
By belief I don't even fixate on god but throw all accepted unknowns in that group; afterlife, magick of supernatural nature, hell even the collective unconscious.

Read an interesting article on religion today:

Born believers: How your brain creates God

D.

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#20171 - 02/11/09 05:41 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Zoid]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

3. I claim there is an afterlife because claiming otherwise irritates me.

4. I claim reality has domains no scientific apparatus will ever detect, and I employ greater magic as a way of testing my hypothesis.


Then that , in my book, puts you in the exact same camp as the rest of the believers. Once you believe something by faith, it doesn't really matter what it is. You have left reality and entered lala-land.
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#20172 - 02/11/09 05:44 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

In this perspective, I'm not an Atheist because I believe that there is a God that watches me and care at all levels about my well being. It's my inner God which I could call also call my "SELF" or my own God.

This is the distinction between autotheist and Atheist.

I personally use the word 'Atheist' because it deals with my cosmological position. 'Autotheism' doesn't really deal with cosmology.
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#20188 - 02/11/09 07:56 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Then that , in my book, puts you in the exact same camp as the rest of the believers. Once you believe something by faith, it doesn't really matter what it is. You have left reality and entered lala-land.


I agree. I just happen to find this particular lala-land congenial, harmless, and psychically strategic, that last one because an ego that won't be extinguished is a likelier candidate for deification than one that will. Realism may be offended but practicality isn't.

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#20194 - 02/11/09 08:22 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Zoid]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

an ego that won't be extinguished is a likelier candidate for deification than one that will.

Oh? Why is that?

I think you are again confusing the 'hollywood' concept of deification with the real deal. Oh well.
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#20195 - 02/11/09 08:24 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Fabiano]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Honestly, rationally I don't know. But even if I would know, what would it change for me ?

Would I act in a different way ?


No, I don't think you would. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you and I share a common trait. I think we both hold propositions in our heads because we find them psychically strategic. These propositions serve us well, they support our intent, and that matters more to us than whether they satisfy a particular truth test. Am I right in my interpretation of your outlook?

To me this is a kind of magic. It works because the propositions are ones that are open to question. If I held to the proposition that the sky is never blue but is always green, this would be absurd because the proposition is demonstrably false. But the proposition that my ego will never be extinguished is open to question, as is the proposition that within you is a higher self of moral authority. We might both be correct, or both be incorrect, or any inverse pairing thereof. But we hold propositions in our heads that serve our intent, and that is what counts for me, and perhaps for you as well.

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#20197 - 02/11/09 08:31 PM Re: Is religion needed? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Oh? Why is that?

I think you are again confusing the 'hollywood' concept of deification with the real deal. Oh well.


Ritual magic requires suspension of disbelief. It is easier for me to suspend disbelief with regard to supernatural power if I hold in my head the proposition that my ego is inextinguishable. If this isn't the case for you, or if you don't engage in ritual magic, then my statements don't apply to you. In ritual magic, subjective reality is all-important, and each of us can only work with what we have.

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