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#18002 - 01/11/09 08:57 PM 2012
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
I have recently been reading up on Nostradamus and other ancient prophecies. Yes I have been bored.

Of what I read from Nostradamus, in 2012 some astrological event will happen causing earthquakes, volcanoes, and tsunami's.

I find this 2012 is the end of the world prophecy quite strange. Even more so that it is the year that the Mayan and Jewish calendars end. I also found that the Hopi Indians had a similar prediction.

I was watching a documentary on the Hopi and they showed and interesting drawing. It was of a group of people at a fork in the road. One side the group stuck together and it shows them all dead. The other side shows one man follow a goat that leads him to food.

In Nostradamus' prophecy he also shows man caught in decision and following a goat to survive. Does anybody think it is possible it is a symbol of LHP vs. RHP? Does anybody here think it is possible the prophecies are true, or is it a simple case of you see what you want to see? What do you think about the 2012 prophecy?

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#18003 - 01/11/09 09:12 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The current year on the Hebrew Calendar is about 5069... Maybe they overslept and missed it.

I plan on waking up on December 22, 2012 and laughing my ass off at the current batch of end of the world loonies. They'll be in good company.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm
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#18005 - 01/11/09 09:17 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I saw some special on The History Channel a few months back on the Mayans and the 2012 doomsday prophecy. It is an interesting subject to be sure, but I don't think there is too much to these predictions in the way of predicting the end of the world.

I think the most interesting thing about it that on 12/21/2012 the sun will be in the exact center of the Milky Way galax. This is an event that, according to astronomers, occurs once every 45,000 years or so. The baffling thing about it is how the Mayan were able to pinpoint that exact date.

Whether or not they knew that it will be happening on that date or it is just a coincidence is still up for speculation. Unfortunately most of the written records kept by the Mayan people were destroyed by the conquistidors and their missionaries who were trying to "save the heathens".
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#18006 - 01/11/09 09:18 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Once you start to take these sorts of things seriously you have lost hold on reality. How exactly do you think these ancient people managed to gain knowledge of the future, when we can not? It is obvious that our science and technology is superior.
Perhaps magic?


So to answer, what do I think about it? I don't.

I have far more important things to think about.
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#18008 - 01/11/09 09:36 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
I understand from a scientific viewpoint it is all just bullshit.
As far is being the end of the world, honestly, nobody knows. What I find intriguing is multiple civilizations, without knowledge of each other, came up with 2012.

Am I going to panic and build a shelter? No.

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#18011 - 01/11/09 10:21 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Nowhere in any Mayan record does it regard "2012" as an apocalypse. The calendar does not END there, but rather simply starts a new cycle.

And since the Mayans were an astronomical-minded people, and based their calendar on the stars (duh!), so it should come as no surprise that they picked a year of cosmic significance to cap off their time-cycle.
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#18016 - 01/12/09 12:25 AM Re: 2012 [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
No where in any Mayan record does it regard 2012 as anything because the records do not exist.
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#18017 - 01/12/09 01:00 AM Re: 2012 [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Butterz Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
Are you trying to say the Maya never existed? If there is no record, where did the Mayan calendar come from?

"At a rough estimate, in excess of 10,000 individual texts have so far been recovered, mostly inscribed on stone monuments, lintels, stelae and ceramic pottery. The Maya also produced texts painted on a form of paper manufactured from processed tree-bark, in particular from several species of strangler fig trees"- Wikipedia.org

What surrounds 2012 as far as the Mayan Calendar is the astronomical alignment that only happens every like 40,000 years happening on winter solstice.

Some other things to consider are: Real science is predicting the next/current sun cycle to be the worst in 50 years. The first two sunspot's of 2006 are moving in reverse direction.

NASA has been watching these sunspots as for the first time ever recorded they moving in 2 different directions. Usually they mill move from south to north for 11 years and then switch. Also their locations are not following suit with what has been seen before.

Now when everything is aligned and the sun is doing it's crazy shit I'd be willing to bet something happens. Apocolypse? Probably not. Still should make for some kind of strange cosmic event.

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#18019 - 01/12/09 01:16 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
Just a quick add on.
Equation: Sunspot Count = Solar Flares = Magnetic Shift = Shifting Ocean/Jet Stream Currents = Extreme Weather

Now factor in the increased magnetic shift caused by the alignment. Now factor in the 1016 asteroids over 100meters in size close enough to be thrown into Earths orbit.

When certain conditions are right there is an increase in chance of variable.

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#18022 - 01/12/09 04:10 AM Re: 2012 [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
I think the most interesting thing about it that on 12/21/2012 the sun will be in the exact center of the Milky Way galax. This is an event that, according to astronomers, occurs once every 45,000 years or so. The baffling thing about it is how the Mayan were able to pinpoint that exact date.


I probably missed something. Looking here I read

 Quote:
The Sun (and therefore the Earth and Solar System) may be found close to the inner rim of the Galaxy's Orion Arm, in the Local Fluff or the Gould Belt, at a hypothesized distance of 7.62±0.32 kpc (~25,000±1,000 ly) from the Galactic Center.[30][31][32][33]


I don't see how the Sun could be in the center of our galaxy one day when we know it's turning around its center...

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#18023 - 01/12/09 04:17 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
What surrounds 2012 as far as the Mayan Calendar is the astronomical alignment that only happens every like 40,000 years happening on winter solstice


Which alignment are you talking about exactly? What is aligned every 40,000 years? The sun with some other stars? The earth, the Sun and something else ?

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#18025 - 01/12/09 05:22 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
As you stare into the sun on 12/21/12, just before you realize it was a dumb thing to do, as your retinas burn any you are rendered blind, you will be looking directly toward the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

OF COURSE the whole of the galaxy has been waiting for this exact moment for this small, insignificant planet on a small subspur of the Orion Spur (which is why when you look up into the sky at night you'll probably see... wait for it... Orion) crosses the invisible equatorial line, when the sun is exactly dead center (give or take a million or twelve miles) in the crosshairs of the CENTER OF THE GALAXY!!

Of the billions and billions of stars in this galaxy, and the billions and billions of bodies orbiting these stars in this galaxy, sombody has painted a big target on the planet Earth. BASTARDS!! They could have gotten us last time we crossed... we were only 1 or 12 degrees out of plumb, but the universe is a big believer in symbology, so it's going to go after our Solstice. You asked for it!

Ok. Let's look at it logically. First, the Mayans decided that their calendars would "end" at the solstices. They also restarted at the solstices as well. They were perpetual and, think about it... they carved their calendar on a stone that weighs approximately 24 tons. You don't just grab another 24 ton stone and go to carving if you can avoid it. Second, if the Mayans were so great at prediction, why couldn't they predict when their civilization would implode?

"Chief Owumnatahu!!! The world is going to end in the year 2012!"
"My Shaman... is that important?"
"Well... we'll all be dead then and the Mayans will only be a memory."
"Fuck it. Let's go have a taco."

Every couple of years we have some doom and gloom prediction. Every couple of years we find gullible people falling into the trap of believing it because some prophet or some religious seer says it's going to happen. People sell their stuff and move to live underground with some new agey guru like Liz Claire Prophet who takes their money and laaaaaughs!

The world IS going to end. Someday. Just a fact. Not a damned thing you or I can do about it. Just a fact. Worrying about it is pretty much a waste of time. Just a fact.
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#18027 - 01/12/09 06:09 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Jake999]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Thanks for the astronomical clarification Jack! \:\)

Thanks also for the link to Failed prophecies.

It always make me smile to see Xian predicting the end of the world when knowing that Jesus himself said he did not know (but only the father knows).

How pretentious they're in believing they could know something their Messiah ignores \:\)

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#18036 - 01/12/09 11:06 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Butterz
Are you trying to say the Maya never existed? If there is no record, where did the Mayan calendar come from?



No, dumbass, I am not trying to say the Maya never existed. That would be an extremely retarded claim to make. I said the records don't exist because, as I said in my first reply to this thread, most were destroyed. Try reading the whole thing before you make assumptions.....dumbass.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (01/12/09 11:10 AM)
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#18037 - 01/12/09 12:13 PM Re: 2012 [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
I think the most interesting thing about it that on 12/21/2012 the sun will be in the exact center of the Milky Way galax.

I find this part hard to believe...
Earth has always been a bit into the outer regions of the milky way. And also, there is one little fact which makes it impossible. If I'm not mistaking there is a black hole on that spot. Aren't you sure you meant that the earth is on an exact same position it was 40,000 years ago?
(And just noticed fabiano pointed that out already.)
 Quote:
Equation: Sunspot Count = Solar Flares = Magnetic Shift = Shifting Ocean/Jet Stream Currents = Extreme Weather

Heard that before.. In this modern age with far more advanced technology we can only predict solar flairs 10 minutes or less before they happen. Now I wonder how those ancient civilasations predicted this?
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#18048 - 01/12/09 07:21 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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I was just reiterating what I heard on the show. Nowhere do I make the claim that the information is 100% accurate, so keep that in mind.
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#18060 - 01/12/09 10:24 PM Re: 2012 [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I think the most interesting thing about it that on 12/21/2012 the sun will be in the exact center of the Milky Way galax. This is an event that, according to astronomers, occurs once every 45,000 years or so. The baffling thing about it is how the Mayan were able to pinpoint that exact date.

This sounds like you believe it... Why would anyone post when you don't even take the time to research what you talking about or believe in it on any level? Why because this is a bullshit cop-out just like the tipping thread where you say something stupid and when you see it is not going your way you need to further clarify yourself, right back out of the equation...

Other than that Jake is correct as I myself have lived past many dates the end of the world was supposed to happen...

~T~

PS. If you are of the belief most Mayan records were destroyed... I will go one further for you and say if true then commonsense would say the portion of the Mayan calendar dealing with dates beyond 2012 were simply destroyed...

Now what the fuck were we talking about?
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#18082 - 01/13/09 05:03 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ta2zz]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I got a workplanner here at home that ends at January 15 2010.

Assume for a second our whole civilization here would vaporize tomorrow and that in two months, aliens land and find my little planner. Do you think they'll worry about January 15 2010 being Doomsday?

I find it pretty logical that when you create a calender, you at one point say, this is far enough in the future. If we don't create one that runs endlessly, why would they?

D.

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#18084 - 01/13/09 06:05 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
This regards the whole thread, not a response to Diavolo.

Let's suppose the prophecy is true. What does it change? Will you change your life in preparation of this. And how will you prepare?

And if it's not true, we're just wasting our time...


Edited by Fabiano (01/13/09 06:06 AM)

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#18086 - 01/13/09 06:21 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It's not true, no doubt about that.

What is most strange about this collective doomsday craze is that it doesn't matter at all. Every day can be your doomsday, you can be ran over by a bus, die of a heart attack, get murdered... the options are endless and still, I do see none getting all freaked about that. I see none dig a bunker or flee to a mountaintop in Africa. So why would it suddenly matter if the world comes to an end? If I die, the world dies anyways. Some people that are so worried about 2012 aren't even going to make it that far.
It's a silly subject and anyone even taking this remotely serious should have IDIOT branded on his forehead.

D.

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#18087 - 01/13/09 06:38 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ta2zz]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
This sounds like you believe it...


Belief or disbelief was never an issue in any of my posts in this thread.


 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Why would anyone post when you don't even take the time to research what you talking about or believe in it on any level?


Once again; belief was not an issue. The reason I didn't research it is because I was stating what I saw in the documentary.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Why because this is a bullshit cop-out just like the tipping thread where you say something stupid and when you see it is not going your way you need to further clarify yourself, right back out of the equation...


I fail to see any "cop-out" here, or, in the other thread that you mention. If you ever feel the need to post such an assinine idea; please please please please please reafrain.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
PS. If you are of the belief most Mayan records were destroyed... I will go one further for you and say if true then commonsense would say the portion of the Mayan calendar dealing with dates beyond 2012 were simply destroyed......


That is why I said MOST and not ALL

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Now what the fuck were we talking about?


I suggest back-tracking and re-reading. If you still do not get it; you are on your own.
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#18111 - 01/13/09 01:26 PM Re: 2012 [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Assume for a second our whole civilization here would vaporize tomorrow and that in two months, aliens land and find my little planner. Do you think they'll worry about January 15 2010 being Doomsday?

If they are alike us..
Probably within their time a new church will be set up, self-sacrifices, theories some new-born ones are actually are us reincarnated on their planet, theories we became beings of pure light and some alien assholes are trying to do the same....
And your planner will contain the date we shall return as pure energy beings and let the aliens ascend to a new state of mind.

Sarcasm and fantasy... just what a man like me needs to be happy apart from food and a descent toilet.


Edited by Dimitri (01/13/09 01:26 PM)
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#18413 - 01/18/09 02:19 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
I'm reading, and thinking; civilizations were wrong with predicting the absolute end of Earth. With over population comes a tax on resources. We only have so much of room, oil, food, etc., and it's just a natural consequence to think that the world will eventually come to an end because we don't have an infinity of the aforementioned things. Now, are groups trying to control individuals by claiming the end is near? I think so...perhaps it's to maintain order or something else.

I like to think that Earth has always been on a slippery slope with coming to a cataclismic end, but it has this nack of bouncing back. I noticed the climatic conditions improved dramatically this year with the temperature and rainfall. All plants remained green during the summer of '08 which astonished me as I have been witnessing vegetation dying preceding this past summer.

I'm 'betting on' our civilization to still be around in 2012, and thereafter.
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#18417 - 01/18/09 06:22 PM Re: 2012 [Re: paolo sette]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
The world won't end for a few more million years- and when it does, humanity will either have died out or colonized some other part of space.

But within the next few thousand years, I highly doubt that humanity will be eradicated. Yes, western civilization as we know it will most likely collapse, (probably within the next few centuries), but people who say it's "the end of the world" are SO narrow-minded. "The world" is not limited to a purely human scope, especially not a western one.

If western civilization were ever to collapse, I'd probably end up converting to Islam and moving to some piss-poor village in the middle east to become a goat herder.
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#18428 - 01/18/09 11:22 PM Re: 2012 [Re: The Zebu]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Nowhere in any Mayan record does it regard "2012" as an apocalypse. The calendar does not END there, but rather simply starts a new cycle.

And since the Mayans were an astronomical-minded people, and based their calendar on the stars (duh!), so it should come as no surprise that they picked a year of cosmic significance to cap off their time-cycle.


Yes, this seems to be the most likely explanation. 2012 is just the beginning of a new astrological phase, like the dawn of the age of aquarius (rather catchy tune, that).

As for the hurricanes, volcanoes, wars and rumors of wars, THERE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN hurricanes, volcanoes, wars and rumors of wars.
This end of times stuff is a bunch of bs designed to stress people out.

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#18771 - 01/24/09 02:42 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
Marilyn Offline
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Registered: 09/05/08
Posts: 45
this reminds me of something else, were there was this great prediction the ufo's were going to visit us.
it was last year sometime,
as far as i noticed, ET did not visit me.

if i can find the link again, i will post it

-Marilyn
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#18806 - 01/24/09 11:29 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Once you start to take these sorts of things seriously you have lost hold on reality. How exactly do you think these ancient people managed to gain knowledge of the future, when we can not? It is obvious that our science and technology is superior.


It takes a special kind of hubris to assume that our society's technology and science is superior to that of many ancient civilizations. The Mayans developed a calendar system far more advanced than The Julian Calendar, a calendar to which we ascribe without a second thought. The Mayans developed an intuitive understanding of the solar system that saturated their entire culture while the average American can walk out of his or her living quarters while remaining completely oblivious to the fact that there are stars in the sky. The native people of South America also developed a medicinal (classification) system that - in many instances - is far more effective than our own. Western scientists in The Amazon often consult the indigenous peoples of various tribes to learn about potential cures for diseases plaguing us in the "modern" world.

There are also many ancient, unsolved mysteries that indicate the Egyptians possessed knowledge, tools, and/or technology that exceeds our own understanding of the universe. We still have no real clue as to how they built half the shit they built; it's all speculation. Who knows what untold tomes of knowledge rested in The Library of Alexandria before it was set ablaze. There are countless examples of other cultures, ancient or otherwise, that possess knowledge and technologies that are superior to ours. It is presumptuous, narrow-minded, and ethnocentric to assume we are the cat's meow of civilization.

You could benefit from some mental yoga.


Edited by H.setesh (01/24/09 11:39 PM)

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#18810 - 01/24/09 11:45 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Right. And you could benefit by replacing your feet onto terra firma, and pulling your head out of the clouds.

If these ancient technologies are so great, why aren't we still using them? Could it be because they are in fact primitive technologies?

I think you watch too many A&E specials. Technology is progressive.
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#18816 - 01/25/09 12:34 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
you could benefit by replacing your feet onto terra firma, and pulling your head out of the clouds.


Logical Fallacy: ad hominem

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I think you watch too many A&E specials. Technology is progressive.


Logical Fallacy: ad hominem

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
If these ancient technologies are so great, why aren't we still using them? Could it be because they are in fact primitive technologies?


We do use them. Look around you. Do you live in a democracy or a republic? Have you ever used a pen, a pencil? Have you looked through a telescope? Do you use reason and logic? I emphasize the last question. Many of the drugs used to treat Parkinson's disease, drug addiction, leukemia and more have been used by indigenous cultures for thousands of years.

Another reason we don't use many ancient technologies is because we're oblivious to them. The limestone blocks made to build The Pyramid of Giza were perfectly square. We have no clue how they made them. Another reason we are not using these technologies today is because it is not professionally expedient for scientists and archaeologists to investigate subjects that contradict popular theory.

I also recommend you refrain from using obvious fallacies like the ad hominem fallacy in your arguments. It belies your insecurities.



Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 12:35 AM)

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#18819 - 01/25/09 01:23 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Bacchae Offline
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Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
Ancients also thought demons caused illnesses, and leeches cured them.

I agree with both camps here. I am sure there are many cures, treatments, technologies, and practices that are ignored or covered today, largely because there is no profit in them.
And obviously we cannot construct an identical pyramid.

But at the end of the day.. who cares? We don’t need a city made of stone giants or animal shapes that can be seen from outer space. I couldn’t care less if someone found an ancient nuclear reactor levitation ark of the covenant thing, because todays problems are not the same problems as yesterdays.

On an individual level perhaps, because people haven’t changed much.. but all of the great mysteries that we sit around and scratch our heads over were large scale “state projects” at whatever time in antiquity they were conceived.
And MOST of those were religious and/or spiritually motivated.

As far as 2012 is concerned.. the mayans stole their calendar and astrological technology from the red bearded white god from the sea. I don’t buy everything Graham Hancock has to say, but that tidbit screams with accuracy. California is full of modern day mayans with wailing booger machines on their hips, homemade tattoos on their necks, working for a dollar an hour in the home depot parking lot, and not enough sense, ambition, or fortitude to take care of their problems at home, which happens to be one of the most beautiful and resource rich lands on the planet. I do not believe they have ever, at any point in history, had the capabilities of mapping out the constellations, constructing a calendar, or making accurate prophecies. They didn’t even have the effin WHEEL. They ate humans. They were barbarians, despite whatever romantic myth surrounds them today.

So call me a pessimist (or an optimist?!) but sadly, I don’t believe anything will come out of 2012 except some panic, small scale rioting, and a bunch of hype.
I am much more concerned with a triple front war in the middle east, the rekindling of a cold war because of bush's missile defense program in russia's front yard, and the pending collapse of the dollar.

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#18821 - 01/25/09 02:18 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
I also recommend you refrain from using obvious fallacies like the ad hominem fallacy in your arguments. It belies your insecurities.


This made me laugh. I like to laugh, so thanks.
Irony is great stuff. By commenting on 'my insecurities' to add muscle to your argument, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of. The difference is I know I am doing it and I don't give a shit. This isn't a 'debate'. This is me making fun of a nutter.

Yes, we are still using some things that have been around for a long time. So fucking what? That doesn't at all support your claim that there were 'superior' technologies in the past than what we have now. In fact, the incarnations of the pen,pencil,telescope, etc are all so far advanced from their prototypes, as to be unrecognizable.

But you know what? this is ridiculous. You can keep believing whatever conspiratorial shit that floats your boat, and I really won't lose any sleep. But bring it here and I will continue to tear it to shreds, just for fun.
;\)
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#18823 - 01/25/09 03:18 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
Ancients also thought demons caused illnesses, and leeches cured them.


The classification system used in biology today is a complete fabrication. Kingdom are split into phylums which are then split into classes and orders and so on. It's made-up, pretend. The classification system used amongst South American indigenous peoples is a system of spirits and demons. Ironically, scientists have found that it is a more effective and more efficient way of classifying nature with the intent of healing the sick.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
the mayans stole their calendar and astrological technology from the red bearded white god from the sea.


I have not read any literature by Graham Hancock that suggests Europeans had bequeathed their astrological technology to The Maya. My understanding is that The Mayan astrological system is unique to their culture, albeit correspondences have been found between it and the I-Ching. In fact, my understanding is that the mathematical prowess of The Maya was unrivaled at the time (circa 36 BC) throughout the world. Where did you read this?

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
California is full of modern day mayans with wailing booger machines on their hips, homemade tattoos on their necks, working for a dollar an hour in the home depot parking lot, and not enough sense, ambition, or fortitude to take care of their problems at home, which happens to be one of the most beautiful and resource rich lands on the planet.


The socio-political problems in Mexico are the result of neo-liberal oligarchs that control 90 percent of the wealth in the country. Half of that wealth has American fingerprints on it. If you don't like Mexicans mowing your lawn, write your representative or vote for the National Socialist Party.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
I do not believe they have ever, at any point in history, had the capabilities of mapping out the constellations, constructing a calendar, or making accurate prophecies. They didn’t even have the effin WHEEL. They ate humans. They were barbarians, despite whatever romantic myth surrounds them today.


The Maya practiced human sacrifice. The Aztecs ate the brains of their victims in times of war. There is a chemical in the brain that will cause hallucinations and feelings of euphoria when consumed by a member of the same species. The Dutch ate juniper berries to the same effect, minus the horrific practice of cannibalization. From a strategic point of view cannibalization was quite effective. The Aztecs were feared throughout the region. Unfortunately, The Aztecs were the real boneheads: all brawn, no brains.

The Maya, contrary to your allegations, had developed a rather technologically and philosophically advanced culture. While The Goths were sacking and defiling Rome (for good reason I suppose,) The Maya were utilizing the most advanced mathematical system in the world and creating works of art that rivaled those of Greece. While Europe slumped into The Dark Ages, The Maya experienced a golden age.

Sacrifice is not limited to South America. The Germanic Peoples sacrificed people to Odin on a regular basis. They chose victims that were intoxicated and full of warmth and good cheer. They never knew what was coming: one moment they would be saying "brost," the next moment they would be dragged to a tree and hanged. I dare say that the Maya performed proper sacrifices: with fanfare, spectacle, in front of the entire empire. I don't condone human sacrifice, but at least The Maya knew how to entertain.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
I am sure there are many cures, treatments, technologies, and practices that are ignored or covered today, largely because there is no profit in them.

...

So call me a pessimist (or an optimist?!) but sadly, I don’t believe anything will come out of 2012 except some panic, small scale rioting, and a bunch of hype. I am much more concerned with a triple front war in the middle east, the rekindling of a cold war because of bush's missile defense program in russia's front yard, and the pending collapse of the dollar.


A triple-front war in The Middle east, the rekindling of The Cold War, and the pending collapse of the dollar are reasons for worry. Yet, I am wary and weary of focusing too heavily upon this subject matter. Some of the greatest achievements throughout the history of humankind have been the direct result of our curiosity and our conceptual faculties. Einstein sucked at math, but - boy - he had one hell of an imagination. The guy speculated on shit that the average person probably thought was a waste of time. Nuclear power provides 15 percent of the world's electricity, by the way.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 03:30 AM)

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#18824 - 01/25/09 03:20 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
By commenting on 'my insecurities' to add muscle to your argument, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.


Actually, I'm not.

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#18826 - 01/25/09 03:37 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: H.setesh
If you don't like Mexicans mowing your lawn, write your representative or vote for the National Socialist Party.


Dan, here is an example of me using an ad hominem fallacy in a debate with Bacchae. It may also be an example of a straw-man fallacy. I'm also guilty of sarcasm. That's it for the lesson (ad hominem/sarcasm).

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#18827 - 01/25/09 03:50 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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You have a lot of funny beliefs.
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#18831 - 01/25/09 03:57 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
You have a lot of funny beliefs.


Thank you.

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#18833 - 01/25/09 04:09 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
Originally Posted By: Bacchae
the mayans stole their calendar and astrological technology from the red bearded white god from the sea.


Quetzalcoatl... and the confusion of "Cortés" being "his" return.

but I think that was "Aztec"... anyway, I think that's what was being referenced...

It fits with the "calendar idea" anyway.

Ah, apparently the "same" in Mayan civilization... Kukulkán... but I'm not sure about the red beard...


Edited by daevid777 (01/25/09 04:16 AM)
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#18840 - 01/25/09 04:37 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Bacchae Offline
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Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
no its viracocha (sp?). i havent read that stuff in a long time, but i believe references are in fingerprints of the gods, and heavens mirror. maybe? its been awhile.

hancocks basis for this was in part citing other researchers works, wherein they described this god as a white man from the sea that taught them things, like calendars, but also because of the sudden an utterly unexplainable technological jump they made. one day collecting berries and dancing around a fire, and the next building massive structures and creating civilizations.
he also linked them up with the egyptians, under the same circumstances.
the mayans and aztecs however were lacking certain things that would have been obvious stepping stones to such a sophisticated state, such the wheel.

im going with Atlanteans on this one. and no, not people from Atlanta.

anyway. I find this stuff mildly interesting, enough to crack a few books every now and then, but ultimately its just a diversion. nothing will ever convince me that sophisticated civilization rose fully featured, powerful, and advanced out of the Americas. it just did not happen. yes there were these cities and such, and maybe they did construct them, but they did not create them on their own. this was the backwater of the world until the europeans came.

erego... fuck the mayans and the sacrificial victims they rode in on. ad hominems a plenty.

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#18842 - 01/25/09 04:40 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
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Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: daevid777

Quetzalcoatl... and the confusion of "Cortés" being "his" return.



sorry i read that wrong a minute ago. YES! quetzalcoatl and viracocha are the same or at least very very similar. and this is why they thought the spaniard was Him.

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#18846 - 01/25/09 04:52 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
The Germanic Peoples sacrificed people to Odin on a regular basis. They chose victims that were intoxicated and full of warmth and good cheer. They never knew what was coming: one moment they would be saying "brost," the next moment they would be dragged to a tree and hanged.

You are coming a bit on my territory now,
as far as I know there weren't real humans sacrified, HOWEVER a doll was made to sacrifice. And this in honour to "German" who was a mythical being linked to rain.

 Quote:
The Maya were utilizing the most advanced mathematical system in the world and creating works of art that rivaled those of Greece. While Europe slumped into The Dark Ages, The Maya experienced a golden age.

True, but then again, if they had a "golden age" why do I not see them as wealthy persons in this modern age? If they were that great once they surely must had something to be succesfull that could be used today.
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#18847 - 01/25/09 04:52 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Do you really think that's what they thought, though?

Sometimes I wonder... I mean, these people must have had a bullshit detector, right?

I can't imagine... even for a so-called "primitive" society to not recognize things, or even see things as we might see them today. I do believe our eyes and ears haven't evolved so vastly in 2,000, 3,000, or whatever amount of years.

I guess if you throw in "faith", then we can knock ourselves down a few thousand years... but still...

the Mahabarata?

Sometimes I think the movie "Stargate" might have more knowledge in it than intended... but this is just fanciful speculation.
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#18850 - 01/25/09 04:56 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
True, but then again, if they had a "golden age" why do I not see them as wealthy persons in this modern age? If they were that great once they surely must had something to be succesfull that could be used today.


Maybe they relied too much on their "technology" \:\) ... but that, as they say... is another thread...

Again, as far as the sacrifices go, I think the reference was a little off, I think this might have been a reference to the "Druids", and the "bog-men" they found... didn't you see that special documentary?



Edited by daevid777 (01/25/09 04:58 AM)
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#18853 - 01/25/09 05:14 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
the mayans and aztecs however were lacking certain things that would have been obvious stepping stones to such a sophisticated state, such the wheel.


The concept that the wheel is a requisite for civilization is an ethnocentric point of view and is completely speculative. The whole concept was founded mainly by European archaeologists.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
yes there were these cities and such, and maybe they did construct them, but they did not create them on their own. this was the backwater of the world until the europeans came. erego... fuck the mayans and the sacrificial victims they rode in on. ad hominems a plenty.


A lot of your arguments are hailing from an ethnocentric point-of-view that verges on racism.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
hancocks basis for this was in part citing other researchers works, wherein they described this god as a white man from the sea that taught them things, like calendars, but also because of the sudden an utterly unexplainable technological jump they made. one day collecting berries and dancing around a fire, and the next building massive structures and creating civilizations. he also linked them up with the egyptians, under the same circumstances. the mayans and aztecs however were lacking certain things that would have been obvious stepping stones to such a sophisticated state, such the wheel. im going with Atlanteans on this one. and no, not people from Atlanta.


The bits about Atlantis and correspondences between The Egyptians and Mayans is interesting. I've read essays on the topic from various sources. I will need to read more of Graham Hancock's writings. I have always found his theories interesting. I am still skeptical. Popular theory maintains that The Olmec were the oldest civilization in The Americas. Their civilization dates back to 1500BC. Unpopular theory suggests that civilization in The Americas may have predated 1500BC. Most of Europe was still tribal at that time (which - as far as I'm concerned - may have been preferable). Egyptians and Africans (as you may be aware) are not "white." They're "colored." So, it must not have been them that rose out of the sea (if anyone rose out of the sea).


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 05:17 AM)

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#18854 - 01/25/09 05:16 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You are coming a bit on my territory now,
as far as I know there weren't real humans sacrified, HOWEVER a doll was made to sacrifice. And this in honour to "German" who was a mythical being linked to rain.


My research refutes this. They hanged people . . . as sacrifices to Odin (Wotan).

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#18855 - 01/25/09 05:19 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Must have been my Viking brethren... blonde hair, red beard, sea-fairing...

Why not?

Ever hear about the "Cocaine Mummies"? in Egypt... where they didn't have the coca leaf...

I refuse to believe vast sea travel began at the time "historians" allege. Shit was going on... before, shit was going on...
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#18856 - 01/25/09 05:22 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
A lot of your arguments are hailing from an ethnocentric point-of-view that verges on racism.


And what's so wrong with ethnocentrism? Fact is, no matter how civilized and advanced the Mayas were, the Europeans whooped their ass. While they had a spiffy calender that could *ahem* predict the end of times, the Europeans imported doom directly.

D.

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#18857 - 01/25/09 05:25 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Must have been my Viking brethren... blonde hair, red beard, sea-fairing...

Why not?


Evidence. You're begging the question. The Vikinger didn't exist as a tribe until well after The Maya were building pyramids and factoring the swing of the Milky Way into the trajectory of The Earth.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 05:25 AM)

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#18858 - 01/25/09 05:28 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
And what's so wrong with ethnocentrism? Fact is, no matter how civilized and advanced the Mayas were, the Europeans whooped their ass. While they had a spiffy calender that could *ahem* predict the end of times, the Europeans imported doom directly.


You make a good point.

Here's another one: if you take a racist stance you're going to be limiting yourself to a very small tribe. Power in numbers - and you're outnumbered.

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#18859 - 01/25/09 05:31 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
And they did it with "advanced technology"... guns... and disease.

My kids were fine the first five years of their lives... put them in public school, wham! Cold, flu, stomach virus, cold, bronciolitis, cold...

I'm glad for "modern medicine", another "technological enhancement"... I'm not knocking the old ways... I use them as well, just as adjunctive treatment... I can't take any chances.
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#18860 - 01/25/09 05:34 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
While they had a spiffy calender that could *ahem* predict the end of times


For the record - since we've strayed from topic - I want to point out that I don't believe that The Mayans were "predicting the end of times." I think they thought the date was important, although I have no idea why and I don't think anyone does.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 05:35 AM)

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#18861 - 01/25/09 05:37 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
(Ahhh, Mr./Miss Setesh... you have graduated to "moderator", I would like to be the first to congratulate you.)




Edited by daevid777 (01/25/09 05:40 AM)
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#18862 - 01/25/09 05:39 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what? I'm a very small tribe to begin with. Do you really think anyone in Satanism is there for the huge and happy family feeling? At best, we're tribalists. It's "them vs us" and even in that, it's "me vs us".

So ethnocentrism comes naturally and relativism is just a silly approach on things. I am not too bothered about ancient cultures. I admit it can be interesting to watch or read about and yes they did things that were remarkable during those days and no, we didn't find all the answers on how they did it. So what? Does that imply I have to think of the Egyptians or Mayas as someone at the same level as us? Not at all. Not that I think that highly about our current civilization, mind you.
But I can't put them on a pedestal because they could put rocks on top of another and invented some calenders. They were underdeveloped, we ate them. That's the true story.

D.

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#18863 - 01/25/09 05:44 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Denmark, Norway, Sweden... didn't have people? Or boats? I obviously need to study my history, if that's the case.
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#18865 - 01/25/09 06:14 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: H.setesh
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You are coming a bit on my territory now,
as far as I know there weren't real humans sacrified, HOWEVER a doll was made to sacrifice. And this in honour to "German" who was a mythical being linked to rain.


My research refutes this. They hanged people . . . as sacrifices to Odin (Wotan).

Back it up please...
I know Odin hung himself to Yggdrasil and gained the knowledge of the runes by this way. But people actually doing it themselves or at least forced by others... Never came across that part yet. I don't give a damn if your research refutes it. If you claim something back it up. I got my copy of the Edda near me.
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#18867 - 01/25/09 07:12 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
During the Maya's preclassic period, we were already using iron, setting up city-states like Athens, Sparta, Rome. China was trading with some states here. Architecture was way advanced. So south-America's advanced civilizations were relatively advanced. Hell, we already had Alexander the Great kicking ass.

The Viking expansion and exploration dates at least another 1000 to 1500 later.

I don't think they had contact with other cultures, at least not with more advanced. If, they might not have used the wheel, but they sure would have used metals for weapons. Personally I consider them a stone age civilization.

D.

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#18868 - 01/25/09 07:56 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah, I mean "Norse" people generally... I know about the "Viking Age"... they're my peeps.

History, is a mystery, when you start going back a few thousand years... especially if that culture didn't necessarily "write it down".

No responses on the Egyptian-cocaine connection yet...
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#18869 - 01/25/09 08:39 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I never heard of it before but read up on it. They seem to have found not only cocaine but also tobacco in Egypt mummies.

It might be possible that Egypt had trade that gave them access to coca and tobacco but it doesn't necessarily imply they traveled there. It could as easily have been China whom already traded silk with Egypt around 1000BC.

Btw, a Mexican-Viking? I suddenly see sombreros with horns.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (01/25/09 08:45 AM)

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#18872 - 01/25/09 10:18 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:

You are coming a bit on my territory now,
as far as I know there weren't real humans sacrified, HOWEVER a doll was made to sacrifice. And this in honour to "German" who was a mythical being linked to rain.


People sometimes confuse the Nordic ritual of nailing a man to a tree in worshiping the goddess Freya, insuring bountiful harvests on land and sea. It's thought that the reason the Norse regions so quickly adapted to Catholicism is that when the first priests arrived they were carrying crucifixes, which the Norse tribesmen though to be the equivalent of sacrifices to Freya.

According to Adam of Bremen, the Swedish kings sacrificed male slaves every ninth year during the Yule sacrifices at the Temple at Uppsala. The Swedes had the right not only to elect kings but also to depose them, and both king Domalde and king Olof Trätälja are said to have been sacrificed after years of famine.

The notorious "Bog Man (Fissured Fred)", who's head was found in a Germanic bog had signs of one single blow to the head, which had been severed from his body, and sunk into the bog. This could have been a sacrifice or a simple execution, but
from the BBC documentary on ancient Europe: "Writing much later, in the first century AD, the Roman historian Tacitus tells us that these Germanic peoples executed their social outcasts - cowards, shirkers and those of disrepute - by pressing them down into bogs. So were these bog victims in fact executions and not sacrifices? If such a distinction could be drawn between the two, it does seem most likely that they were sacrifices, because bogs were places where other, inanimate offerings were made."

Human sacrifice and cannibalism is pretty much a staple of most developing cultures in Asia, in Europe, in the South Pacific, In South America, and even in the good ol' US of A, where there is evidence that the Anasazi Indians practiced it, and, in my home town area, the Cahokia Indians of the Illinois and Mississippi Valleys practiced ritual murder and cannibalism with the emergence of the Vulture Cult, which made its way North from Mexico.
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#18877 - 01/25/09 11:22 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So what? I'm a very small tribe to begin with. Do you really think anyone in Satanism is there for the huge and happy family feeling? At best, we're tribalists. It's "them vs us" and even in that, it's "me vs us".


You seem interested in reinforcing the ego and projecting it mercilessly forward in time and space. This seems to be a preoccupation linked to Satanism. Am I correct? If so, being a member of a racist community makes you obsolete (note: I am not suggesting that all Satanists are racist). The majority, the powerful, decide the course of history and you're outnumbered. National Socialism and other forms or racism are no more than memetic sneezes that are doomed to be stamped under the heels of history. It's no skin off my back. In fact, I would like to ship all the racists of the world to Australia and let them butcher each other in The Outback. We can turn it into a reality show.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So what? Does that imply I have to think of the Egyptians or Mayas as someone at the same level as us?


I never suggested you need to think about anything, but I did lead you to think about it.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not that I think that highly about our current civilization, mind you.


Agreed.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But I can't put them on a pedestal because they could put rocks on top of another and invented some calenders. They were underdeveloped, we ate them. That's the true story.


Agreed.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 11:24 AM)

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#18878 - 01/25/09 11:26 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Back it up please...
I know Odin hung himself to Yggdrasil and gained the knowledge of the runes by this way. But people actually doing it themselves or at least forced by others... Never came across that part yet. I don't give a damn if your research refutes it. If you claim something back it up. I got my copy of the Edda near me.


Refer to Jake999's post on this thread. I will conjure my research if need be, but - hopefully - this will do for now.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 11:27 AM)

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#18880 - 01/25/09 11:34 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
History, is a mystery, when you start going back a few thousand years... especially if that culture didn't necessarily "write it down".


History is decided by those who can argue it best, and you simply have not presented any sane, rational, reasonable, or logical argument reinforcing your claims that The Vikinger bequeathed The Maya with advanced mathematical/symbological and building methods 1000 years prior to their existence. Are you suggesting The Vikinger traveled through time? The Vikinger never developed an astrological/astronomical technology, barely had a written language, and knew little or nothing of mathematics. Their greatest achievements were developing a pseudo-democratic system, judge-by-jury, and drinking mead.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 11:34 AM)

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#18881 - 01/25/09 11:38 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
People sometimes confuse the Nordic ritual of nailing a man to a tree in worshiping the goddess Freya, insuring bountiful harvests on land and sea. It's thought that the reason the Norse regions so quickly adapted to Catholicism is that when the first priests arrived they were carrying crucifixes, which the Norse tribesmen though to be the equivalent of sacrifices to Freya.

Second thing for adapting christianity into the German mythology was due to the fact Baldr and Christ had some points in common.

Back to H.Setesh: They say they executed people; social outcasts and so on. Executing vs sacrifice.... there is a difference.
But still waiting for a link from you. Not that I don't believe jake. But I prefer to read it from another source. Little article or so..
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#18882 - 01/25/09 11:40 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The Viking expansion and exploration dates at least another 1000 to 1500 later. I don't think they had contact with other cultures, at least not with more advanced.


The Vikings actually did travel to North America via Iceland and Greenland. While there they found The Native Americans, who they mistook for elves, dwarves, and goblins. Apparently, they hung one of them. They found him so funny and interesting that they thought to make a sacrifice to Odin to bless the new land. After The Native Americans found the body of their dead tribesman hanging from a tree, a battle ensued. The Vikinger were outnumbered and lost.

This was less than 1000 years ago.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 11:43 AM)

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#18883 - 01/25/09 11:43 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So not being a relativist makes me automatically a racist? Good to learn something new. If you want to experience the hippie feeling that all cultures are equally valid, as are all humans, feel free but you're not going to find much support here.

I can't subscribe to the current attitude that we must embrace everything out there and be ashamed for all we did in the past.
In reality, relativism is a memetic fart and a pretty self-destructive one.

D.

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#18884 - 01/25/09 11:45 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So not being a relativist makes me automatically a racist? Good to learn something new. If you want to experience the hippie feeling that all cultures are equally valid, as are all humans, feel free but you're not going to find much support here.

I can't subscribe to the current attitude that we must embrace everything out there and be ashamed for all we did in the past.
In reality, relativism is a memetic fart and a pretty self-destructive one.


Logical Fallacy: Straw-man. I never said that being non-relative makes you a racist. Being racist makes you a racist.

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#18885 - 01/25/09 11:51 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
The Vikinger never developed an astrological/astronomical technology, barely had a written language, and knew little or nothing of mathematics.

vs

 Quote:
The Vikings actually did travel to North America via Iceland and Greenland.

Vikings had boats... to build a boat.. well you need the ability to count. And to navigate you must have astronomical knowledge. Rudimentary, yes; but they had it. Unless you believe they travelled by foot to North-America. Or how else do you explain they knew how to return home?
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#18886 - 01/25/09 11:52 AM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Go suck a carrot.

There, slap a fallacy on that hippie.

D.

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#18887 - 01/25/09 11:59 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
That was from my post... I seldom rely on the web for my references.

History of the Christian Church by John Fletcher Hurst
World Mythology: A History of Great Myths and Epics by Donna Rosenberg

Got another source for you... but from memory... have to lay my hands on it in my library, and then I'll let you know. (Yeah... I know... I'm an old fart, but I still like books.)
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#18888 - 01/25/09 12:01 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
to navigate you must have astronomical knowledge. Rudimentary, yes; but they had it.


You are correct, although I still don't think they rose out of the sea and enlightened The Maya (which was my original point in that post).


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 12:04 PM)

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#18889 - 01/25/09 12:03 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Go suck a carrot. There, slap a fallacy on that hippie.


I can use the Vitamin A.

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#18890 - 01/25/09 12:03 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Jake999]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Donna Rosenberg book...
I think I have that one if I'm not mistaken.
Not really had the time to read/start reading it YET.
I'll take a look for it and put it on top of my "to read list".
After the exams at least. ...

 Originally Posted By: H.seteh
You are correct, although I still don't think they rose out of the sea and enlightened the Maya (which was my original point in that post).

Why should they enlighten the Maya? If I find a new tribe which is pretty primitive I'm not feeling the urge to "enlighten" them.


Edited by Dimitri (01/25/09 12:06 PM)
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#18894 - 01/25/09 12:43 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Why should they enlighten the Maya? If I find a new tribe which is pretty primitive I'm not feeling the urge to "enlighten" them.


It's not that they should or shouldn't; it's that they couldn't. This is an attempt at historical revisionism.

Peace, nigga.

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#18900 - 01/25/09 01:09 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Stupid remark, how do you know they couldn't? That's just an assumption.
And I'm no nigga thank you very much.
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#18901 - 01/25/09 01:17 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Why is this thread still continuing? Are we really arguing about which civilization has brought the most and most advanced technology to the table?

We have instantaneous global communication, air travel, the Internet, surgery, cars, skyscrapers, computers, etc etc etc.

You would have to be a complete idiot to believe people that lived in mud huts and caught their food with spears can rival that just because they figured out a way to keep time.

REALITY. Embrace it.

And for fucks sake setesh, go read and learn what 'ad hominem' actually means. I realize you probably only stumbled across the list of fallacies last week on some random website and had that 'aha' moment, but you are still using the term wrong.

An 'ad hominem' argument is when you use an argument that focuses on the one arguing the point in an attempt to discredit the point itself.

For instance, if I were to say your argument is crap because you seem like a complete flake, that would be an 'ad hominem' In reality, the two things (your argument being crap, and you being a flake) are separate, but true, statements.

See how that works?
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#18904 - 01/25/09 01:33 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Stupid remark, how do you know they couldn't? That's just an assumption.
And I'm no nigga thank you very much.


Show me evidence that The Vikinger sailed to Mesoamerica and bequeathed knowledge of the stars and stonemasonry to The Maya and Olmec a thousand years prior to The Vikinger ever entered the world stage. Your argument is flawed and I can only surmise that you're delusional if you believe it.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 01:35 PM)

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#18905 - 01/25/09 01:34 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And for fucks sake setesh, go read and learn what 'ad hominem' actually means. I realize you probably only stumbled across the list of fallacies last week on some random website and had that 'aha' moment, but you are still using the term wrong.

An 'ad hominem' argument is when you use an argument that focuses on the one arguing the point in an attempt to discredit the point itself.

For instance, if I were to say your argument is crap because you seem like a complete flake, that would be an 'ad hominem' In reality, the two things (your argument being crap, and you being a flake) are separate, but true, statements.

See how that works?


Dan, you use a lot of logical fallacies in your arguments - if they can even be called arguments. This makes you look stupid. You are, again, incorrect.

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#18906 - 01/25/09 01:38 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
What exactly am I 'incorrect' about oh keeper of the ancient knowledge?

 Quote:

argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


Read it twice if you have to.
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#18907 - 01/25/09 01:40 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Dan, watch out with the guy, he does research. We merely read books.

D.

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#18908 - 01/25/09 01:41 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Show me evidence that The Vikinger sailed to Mesoamerica and bequeathed knowledge of the stars and stonemasonry to The Maya and Olmec a thousand years prior to The Vikinger ever entered the world stage. Your argument is flawed and I can only surmise that you're delusional if you believe it.

You are evading the original topic and some of my questions. Also your answers are based on assumptions. Bad thing to do, many bullshit-detectors here. My argument is not flawed, if you make an assumption, I can too even tough it is something impossible.

Anyway, like Dan said: history is history. Now is now, I live in this era/age/time and am happy about it. I don't give a fuck if there are ASSUMPTIONS there were civilisations so-called "more advanced" then ours. It's only something nice to know if it indeed was but that's about it. Do I gain something by knowing so? --> NO

So fuck-off, dream about you historic society's where they can fly on banana peels, and start learning something usefull.


Edited by Dimitri (01/25/09 01:58 PM)
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#18931 - 01/25/09 10:36 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
Research.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: H.setesh
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You are coming a bit on my territory now, as far as I know there weren't real humans sacrified, HOWEVER a doll was made to sacrifice. And this in honour to "German" who was a mythical being linked to rain.
My research refutes this. They hanged people . . . as sacrifices to Odin (Wotan).
Back it up please...
I know Odin hung himself to Yggdrasil and gained the knowledge of the runes by this way. But people actually doing it themselves or at least forced by others... Never came across that part yet. I don't give a damn if your research refutes it. If you claim something back it up. I got my copy of the Edda near me.


Deities. Mercury is the deity whom they chiefly worship, and on certain days they deem it right to sacrifice to him even with human victims. Hercules and Mars they appease with more lawful offerings. Some of the Suevi also sacrifice to Isis. Of the occasion and origin of this foreign rite I have discovered nothing, but that the image, which is fashioned like a light galley, indicates an imported worship. The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance. They consecrate woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to the abstraction which they see only in spiritual worship. - Tacitus

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

The gods were not worshipped in temples, but in sacred groves. Sacrifices were offered to them, sometimes even human sacrifices; and their will was found out by means of lots. - History of Germany By James Sime, Edward Augustus Freeman. Pg. 9 - 10

http://books.google.com/books?id=5MEBAAA...-qHzL8E#PPA9,M1

It was believed that Woden delighted in the blood of human sacrifice, and near the temple lay a dark and gloomy wood, where among the tree-roots and from out the moss gleamed white the skulls and bones of victims of his altars. - Stories from German History from Ancient Times to the Year 1648 By Florence Aston. Pg. 30.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cYpCAAA...qHzL8E#PPA30,M1

It is attested in primary sources that sacrifices were made to Odin during blóts. Adam of Bremen relates that every ninth year, people assembled from all over Sweden to sacrifice at the Temple at Uppsala. Male slaves and males of each species were sacrificed and hung from the branches of the trees. - Wikipedia article: Odin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin


When Tacitus refers to Mercury, he means Odin. Mercury would have been the Greek god that closest resembled Odin.

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#18932 - 01/25/09 10:49 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
H.setesh Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Chicago, IL
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

...you could benefit by replacing your feet onto terra firma, and pulling your head out of the clouds.

...

I think you watch too many A&E specials.


So, Dan. How do the above two statements made by yourself "[address] the substance of the argument or [produce] evidence against the claim." It seems to me that they actually "[attack] or [appeal] to a characteristic or belief of the source (me) making the argument." Hmmm.

It's funny. You claim to use logic but rarely do, and you throw it completely out the window when your ego is rubbed the wrong way. Perhaps you should put the brakes on the ego-magick because it's making you look like an ass.

Your ego is getting in the way of your logic.


Edited by H.setesh (01/25/09 10:51 PM)

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#18934 - 01/25/09 11:15 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Do you read? I already freely admitted that I do that. I just don't give a shit, I'm not bound by any formal rules.

I just think it's funny that you keep crying foul, as if this were some sort of regulated debate, yet seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that you are doing it yourself.

It's giving me an acute case of the lols
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#18937 - 01/25/09 11:47 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dan_Dread]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Jesus...

Anyway, I was throwing out a "fanciful speculation" of mine (as I explained), that there could have been a more "global" exchange before any "authority" wrote it down, or if such things were recorded... they may have been lost. As occurs time and time again in "history".

People with boats (I don't care what they were named), and ocean in between, it was obviously done later, why not sooner? I don't need evidence to speculate...

Oh, how would the Chinese get their hands on Cocaine? Or Tobacco? From what I know the coca leaf is indigenous to South America alone, and would have remained there... unless...


Edited by daevid777 (01/25/09 11:54 PM)
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#18940 - 01/25/09 11:52 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
Btw, a Mexican-Viking? I suddenly see sombreros with horns.


I don't "dance on my hat" if that gives you any clues...
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#18941 - 01/25/09 11:59 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
you simply have not presented any sane, rational, reasonable, or logical argument reinforcing your claims


I never meant to imply otherwise... but the way you wrote that, your tone... it hurts, man, hurts.

 Quote:
Their greatest achievements were developing a pseudo-democratic system, judge-by-jury, and drinking mead.


Don't forget evoking fear in most of northern Europe, listening to their wives, killing some priests, and destroying churches... oh, and "bathing" regularly.
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#18948 - 01/26/09 01:05 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
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Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
the Vikings and early Scandinavians had plenty of accomplishments. they were strong, inventive people that flourished in a harsh and isolated land, and through sheer skill navigated their SMALL boats across nearly every major body of ocean on the planet.

the peculiar thing is that today it is fashionable to belittle and dismiss the Vikings. because they were as white as the driven snow.
all northern europeans are treated this way. and that is The Reason. white hate, and self loathing.
the brown people however, are glorified, mystified, and deified. oh look at the their achievements! they made a calendar!!!

if i lived in a tropical paradise and didnt have to worry about freezing to death, starving to death, or drowning to death, and could sit around in a loin cloth chewing stimulants I would make goddamned calendars all day.

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#18951 - 01/26/09 01:23 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
Butterz Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
Bacchae, you bring up an interesting point. While pondering your post I realized that it is completely true. So it is very possible the Maya created such a long calendar for lack of anything better to do.

Back to the 2012 theory though, wich is why I started this thread in the first place. Nostradamus predicted that 2012 would be the coming of the end. Believing or not doesn't change anything. Many of you discredit the Maya 2012 and have good reason to. Now what is your take on Nostradamus 2012?

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#18952 - 01/26/09 01:30 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Is this in one of his "quattrains"? (or however you spell it)

I mean, you could read almost anything in those things. I remember getting some false email after "the events of 9-11", regarding a totally cut and paste version of one of these. Did Nostradamus actually just write something that plain, for once?

I mean, he wrote "In the year 2012..."

I'm not doubting you, but I'd like a link or something.
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#18955 - 01/26/09 01:49 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Butterz Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
I got my information from:

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=399006

Unfortunately the link is only an advertisement for the program. It does have a breif summary. I thought about posting links to the show on youtube, but they are broke down into 8 minute clips and the show was I believe 2 hours. It's easy to find a website saying anything you want but I trust History Channel.

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#18982 - 01/26/09 02:01 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Yeah, the more one thinks of it, the weirder it becomes. At what point did the attitude change from adoring the accomplishments of a nation or a conqueror to adoring the victim and the conquered?

What made nations great in the past was their pride, now it is almost a requirement to focus on the bad things. If Caesar would ride into Rome today, the people would throw tomatoes because he did many bad things to those poor barbarians. They after all could carve pretty symbols into rock.

I'm not much of a fan boy and race, culture and such leaves me pretty indifferent most of the time but hell, if I do have to pick or support one when the time is there, it sure is my own. Screw the rest.

D.

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#18997 - 01/26/09 04:56 PM Re: 2012 [Re: H.setesh]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Originally Posted By: H.setesh
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Stupid remark, how do you know they couldn't? That's just an assumption.
And I'm no nigga thank you very much.


Show me evidence that The Vikinger sailed to Mesoamerica and bequeathed knowledge of the stars and stonemasonry to The Maya and Olmec a thousand years prior to The Vikinger ever entered the world stage. Your argument is flawed and I can only surmise that you're delusional if you believe it.


Here's your proof.

If vikings could make it to Oklahoma long enough to scribble "november 11, 1012" into a rock, I doubt Mexico was much trouble SINCE THEY PASSED RIGHT BY IT. And go ahead and dig up all the other links you can find regarding the runes in America. They also left writings in Minnesota.

Now can we end this stupidity?


Edited by ceruleansteel (01/26/09 04:59 PM)
Edit Reason: had to end on an insult...it's my way.

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#19009 - 01/26/09 07:45 PM Re: 2012 [Re: ceruleansteel]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I'm going to have to butt in and say that the story has a heavy scent of bullshit hanging around it. Give us academically-backed proof please, rather than some quasi-legit story.

It really doesn't matter anyway. Bottom line is, the Mayan people could tell what time it was by the stars because they were too stupid to make atomic clocks.

Happy now?
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#19014 - 01/26/09 08:23 PM Re: 2012 [Re: The Zebu]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Runes

Runes

Runes

google "Heavener Runes"

I can do this all day....

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#19021 - 01/26/09 08:58 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Re: Diavolo

"At what point did the attitude change from adoring the accomplishments of a nation or a conqueror to adoring the victim and the conquered?"

I think this started after world war 2 in a kinda fucked up way. Germany was blamed for everything, and at this point, their own history is still against the law to talk about or have out in public.

In Vietnam, we (the us soldiers) were called baby killers, and etc. Everything we did over there was wrong to a lot of people, no matter what the reasons were.

1960's forward in the USA, Everything culturally "white" is bad, and only works to keep minories down. That thought is so preverant, and is used as an excuse for certain people not to try to better their situation.

Those cultures that fell by the wayside, fell for a reason. They were weaker in some way to a better opponite.

As for 2012, who gives a shit. The worlds' not ending, and its gonna be just another day. I'm only gonna be concerned if we have that thing (whatever the fuck the xians call it) where people get sucked up to heaven without their clothes on en mass.
I figure maybe 50 people will disappear if that many.
;\)


Morgan
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#19072 - 01/27/09 02:35 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Thanks for the back-up steel.
I only didn't search for the evidences since I noticed this guy wouldn't stop whining about his research. Better to leave people ignorant if they have a huge ego.

@morgan.
Your brief summary of human history the last decades really shows we aren't that "far-advanced" as we would like to believe.
Still a long way to go before we can say we are civilized.


Edited by Dimitri (01/27/09 02:39 AM)
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#19080 - 01/27/09 02:53 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Proof that Vikings invented time and ruled the ancient world.....

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#19082 - 01/27/09 02:58 AM Re: 2012 [Re: fakepropht]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
LMFAO! Is anyone else as annoyed by Flava Flav as I am? To the point where anytime you see him or hear about him you want to break something! YEAH BOOOOOOOOOOOOY
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#19088 - 01/27/09 03:44 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
As much as I have newfound admiration for CeruleanSteel, and as much love for all things "Norse"...

I will retreat back to my "other brothers" of the brown path...

So I've started reading this book, aptly entitled "2012", by Whitley Strieber, the crazy guy that wrote "Communion", etc...

And I've just finished, "The Gates of the Necronomicon", which is also by Simon (Necronomicon guy...I know), and I gotta say a good read. And I have to dignify that I wasn't expecting it to be anything great...

Anyway, "2012" seems (I just started it, okay?) to suggest an ancient presence here on earth... linked with certain astrological events, etc. All "buried" beneath some of the greatest, strangest "landmarks" of the ancient peoples... with some sceptibility as to actually when these things were actually created, or at least their "foundations".

Anyway, this, combined with some strange astrological shit in the "Gates" book, seem to coincide.

Ta2zz posted a video regarding the 8 pointed "star", which to some of the ancients was a symbol of "divinity". Further research on the "celestial poles" versus the Earth's on "Magnetic polar" influences creates, at certain times, a direct map to what has been called before as "the center of the galaxy"...

this does take into account that we are on "Earth", and what's going on "out there" is whatever it is, although can cause change here... as above, so below... etc. This "conjunction", if you will, makes these "poles" cross, in such a way that has not been seen for a very, very long time, this "research of mine" argues. That is the "celestial, astral or starry if you will" and the "terrestrial, Earthly" poles will create an axis, which could be represented as an "eight-pointed star"...

And, this should happen around 2012... during the Equinox... 11:13 am... or so... December 21st, or 22nd...?

Otherwise it has been suggested, from "crazies", that our world has been infilrated by "lizard men", reptilian humanoids, if you will, "pod-people" regarding whom we are to be "watchful"...

Regarding the ancient civilizations, and their technology, some of which appears to have arrived "overnight", one can only speculate...

Especially regarding some of the ancient paintings, carvings, and/or stories... I wouldn't believe, but as I've said before regarding these peoples vision and mental acuity, wouldn't it be easier to just call a spade a spade? (that's not racist either)

A "serpent"... (lizard man?) with "feathers" (space craft)... translating sucks ass... the Mahabarata, as I mentioned earlier, and to which no one commented upon, is full of a battle in the skies, with aircraft, spacecraft, using weapons completely unseen by the people of that age, and even us... perhaps the first "sci-fi" epic novel?

Oh yeah, there is also the "creation myth" - in many cultures... involving "serpents", and "gods" that defeat these beings... many of such stories creating "us" in the process... usually part of a "duality" of sorts... part "God", part "Dragon"... from the dead body of the serpent, and the god's "breath" or some kind of shit like that...

Anyway, the premise of this "fanciful speculation", is...

the ancient people were not so un-technologically advanced as it appears

they learned this from a "visitor", a "foreigner"

there was a great destruction of some kind, in the past, which could happen again

"history" is bullshit (emphasis mine)

lizard "men" walk the planet, even to this day, and they have an agenda

"We" are part lizard-man, part something else (god?)... and neither thing might be beneficial to our existence... no one cares, and we might actually be a threat in some way

"we" are the "aliens" on this planet, birds and fish and bears and dogs just look at us and think "WTF?"

So... yeah, we're all doomed. I never thought humans were actually a "part" of this wonderful nature anyway, and I still speculate on the advancements in technology the last hundred years... no one could have done this before? The million years humans have inhabited this earth, not one person could have imagined a "steam-powered" engine? A light-bulb? Electricity, though it was all around them? A telephone? A flying machine? A car?

for 999,900 years, we just sat with our thumbs up our asses? Camels and horses, "maybe" the wheel? The fucking wheel? I'd publicly execute all my "royal inventors" if I were a king back then...

some things just don't make sense... and I wasn't implying in most of my above rhetoric that I actually believe any of this, except maybe for the last part...

Just my "fanciful speculation" - no evidence, no proof, not that it really means a shit when it comes to "ancient history".

sorry it was so long....
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#19093 - 01/27/09 04:01 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Anyway, "2012" seems (I just started it, okay?) to suggest an ancient presence here on earth... linked with certain astrological events, etc. All "buried" beneath some of the greatest, strangest "landmarks" of the ancient peoples... with some sceptibility as to actually when these things were actually created, or at least their "foundations".

Anyway, this, combined with some strange astrological shit in the "Gates" book, seem to coincide.


vs

 Quote:
One cultist, known as Old Castro, provides the most elaborate information given in Lovecraft's fiction about Cthulhu. The Great Old Ones, according to Castro, had come from the stars to rule the world in ages past.

“ They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape...but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.[14] ”

Castro points to the "much-discussed couplet" from Abdul Alhazred's Necronomicon:

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die.[15]
Castro explains the role of the Cthulhu Cult: When the stars have come right for the Great Old Ones, "some force from outside must serve to liberate their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented them from making an initial move."[14] At the proper time,

“ the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from his tomb to revive His subjects and resume his rule of earth....Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom.[16] ”

Castro reports that the Great Old Ones are telepathic and "knew all that was occurring in the universe." They were able to communicate with the first humans by "moulding their dreams," thus establishing the Cthulhu Cult, but after R'lyeh had sunk beneath the waves, "the deep waters, full of the one primal mystery through which not even thought can pass, had cut off the spectral intercourse."

In great lines there are quite some resemblances..

Cthulhu-inspired?
Chtulhu spin-off?
Is the mythos of lovecraft not fictive?
Should I shit my pants?
Should I scratch my balls?
Whatever...
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#19095 - 01/27/09 04:37 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

As I am not looking to write a whole story and its well past my bedtime... I will leave you these few links to different information... Speculate however you will...

Technology has been here before... One must open their mind and see the clues laid out before us... The Antikythera mechanism, Precolombian Airplane Models, The Bagdad battery...

Combine these facts with things like we discussed in this thread... Namely how fast the people forget how to do even simple things... Raise of technology: downfall of humanity?

Bring in shows like this Life After People and the current beliefs behind the electric universe...

With evidence like this it doesn't take too much speculation to say that quite possibly we have reason for all the end of the world scares... Perhaps the reason it is so fresh in our memories because it damn near happened before...

With that being said do I think the Myans knew the exact year it would happen again? Do I think 2012 will be the end? No... Not likely...

~T~
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#19097 - 01/27/09 04:43 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Well, this is fiction vs. fiction here, but... maybe you could just scratch your balls... if you'd like...

There's always this talk of "Gates", of which you can pass through, but it's like opening any other kind of door... it works "both ways". In the "text" of the "Walking", that is a sort of "astral projection", the word "astral" being related to the "stars", by linguistics, this does offer "speculation" for fun... in the "Gates" book, there is the mention of the "Watcher", which could be seen as a rip off from the "Golden Dawn" methods, or "Pathworking", but the "Watcher" is "neutral", and doesn't really give a shit about you either, and could turn on you if you don't treat it right...

I have no doubt any of this could be real for "me", if I so intended this insane pursuit, but "real", objectively "real" for "everyone"... that would be something.

I'd like very much to be on the side of the "winning party", thank you very much... I've never given a squid a blowjob, though... or let me rephrase... I've never given a blowjob, though...

Truth is, if these things are "real" (and a big nod to the guys in the white scrubs...), what reason would they have to actually give any sort of shit about us?

Unless there was an agenda, we were created out of "both" parties involved, and they've come to collect... or at least one of them has...

In any case, we're doomed (C-three-P-O), it could be a genetic marker of some sort and you realize this is all crazy talk, right?

To be more crazy, check out "reptilian humanoids", see what you get...

Anyway, going full on nuts batshit crazy... the legends of "us" being created out of some sort of primeval dragon, lizard, reptillian, thing, that has been, of course "slain", and the prevailing "god" form that creates "us" from the defeated body of aforementioned "serpent-thing" goes far and wide.

this is, of course, "Mythology", and not necessarily "History", though "historical representations" of such things are evident...

But they were just a bunch of savages, that ate eachother, and didn't have the wheel...
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#19098 - 01/27/09 04:50 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ta2zz]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Thanks for "keepin' it real" Ta2zz...

But that kinda shit just creeps me out a little more...

I almost want to believe in a fantastical delusion, now!
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#19099 - 01/27/09 05:01 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Well about technology...
I'm not surprised such things as very rudementary aircrafts were made on a small scale but not very operative.
It doesn't mean a thing these ideas and models existed far before science made it globally acceptable.
Most things are found at different places at different times in history.

Why we don't find evidence of real-life working aircrafts nowadays? Some people may have understood the principle but their knowledge may have lacked to actually built something like it. And in case for an airplane.. well just look at birds flying around and you'll see the links.

About the antikythera mechanism: it is indeed something "mind-blowing" we discovered. However, it doesn't surprise me. It's almost the same as the aircrafts. One may have noticed something and found a structure. From that point a little bit of engeneering and you got yourself a mechanism. Maybe some people knew how to work with it, but I believe this was something a normal person from those times would have frowned upon, even some "scientists" of those ages would find it a bit weird..

We as a human race are quite wide-spread around the globe. We are with quite a few also. It's possible something was invented decades ago but was lost in time without us knowing about it. Or maybe we did know about it, at least some did, re-discovered the principles, made modifications to it and presto: we have something new.
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#19124 - 01/27/09 02:12 PM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
Id like to point out only 2 things that are relevant to your post:

1. whitley streiber is a science fiction writer who basically jumpstarted his career with an "autobiography" of his own alien abduction.

I enjoyed his radio show, but he is no Art Bell! and he is no Graham Hancock either. great writer, but not a scholar.

2. the lizard people were popularized by David Icke. who as you know is a GIANT in the field of speculative history and conspiracy.
I will let you in on a secret, that only the illuminati and david icke groupies know (and Dev!)... the lizard people is a code word for jews.

there was an awesome documentary on canadian TV a few years ago when a crew followed mr. Icke around on a book signing tour. in every city he went to groups of young jews harassed and attacked him, and even managed to have some of his events canceled. why? he doesnt dwell on jews or israel in his books... yet they really hate his message.


Edited by Bacchae (01/27/09 02:13 PM)

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#19125 - 01/27/09 03:17 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Just for informational purposes:

Was on CNN's news page today: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/01/27/2012.maya.calendar.theories/index.html
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#19156 - 01/28/09 12:43 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
 Quote:
Well, this is fiction vs. fiction here, but... maybe you could just scratch your balls... if you'd like...


Yeah... you're right Bacchae...

I wasn't making this into a "scholarly" debate, I was just talking about 2012... and since the book I'm reading (I bought it for my wife) was about this, and it was just laying there... I started reading it... and shared here.

I know about Whitley Streiber, which is why I intentionally mentioned him in relation to his other cooky work... he's a seemingly intelligent person, and the writing in this book is... okay so far.

The Lizard men! There was another guy... not Icke, though I've seen his site(s)... someone who maybe "split" with him once he "really went looney". John Rhodes? The "Cryptozoologist" - yeah, he's kooky too... http://www.reptoids.com/introduction.htm

The Jews! Thanks, didn't see that... Well, if they are "god's chosen people", and "god" is Quetzalcoatl... then maybe they are descendents of the "lizard". *disclaimer* - that was meant as a humorous observation, and in no way meant as a "racial" slur on the Jewish people...

Dev, would certainly be more suited to explore and expound on such ideas... I was just posting here for fun, and topical relevancy, even if it is all b.s.

Here's another reference since I brought it up (sorry x 2):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid

And, thanks for the article link Jake999... I am not concerned with the "end of the world", mine already did... so maybe I should just go with it, become "born again", and place my faith in Jesus, and when Gabriel's horn is sounded... I relish the Rapture... and am instantly saved... walking along side of all the reanimated zombies of the past. Good times... good times.
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#19158 - 01/28/09 01:03 AM Re: 2012 [Re: daevid777]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
daevid, its all in fun. no matter how serious the research is, its hard to take serious, not to mention inconsequential to real life.
I totally get caught up in too. for a long time I was obsessed with the grail mythos, merovingians, bloodlines, fucking elves, nazi sucers, and all kinds of wacky shit. the best part of it is EVERYTHING can be tied together by a clever writer!

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#19170 - 01/28/09 03:21 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Bacchae]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I'm not "caught up".... and when or if I do... you'll be able to tell, I think. It certainly won't be lizard men, or 2012...

The thing is, these two books were written well apart from one another, but if you thinks Mr. Whitley has read this book as well, then I can't argue that... even if it is not evident in the writing I've read so far.

And damned good for him, at least he did some "research", even if it was into another fictitious work... A true writer, has to be a true reader, first, I'd like to imagine.

I was going to quote a small strange criticism/poem from Edgar Allan Poe, but my library is a long way from this computer - and it was written on "paper", bound in a "book". It summed up most eloquently and beautifully, the concept of writing, and the necessity of "reading"... Now I have to find it again... damn!

As for the scholars? You already said it best...
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#21393 - 03/02/09 12:04 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Jake999]
LordOf_illusions Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 31
Loc: Kansas
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
The current year on the Hebrew Calendar is about 5069... Maybe they overslept and missed it.

I plan on waking up on December 22, 2012 and laughing my ass off at the current batch of end of the world loonies. They'll be in good company.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm


The 2012 prophecy of course is a fictitious superstition like many other end of the world scenarios that have failed before it.

With that being said there is somthing about the end of the world that turns me on and even though I know this is just another example of superstition there is apart of me that wants it to be true. ( laughs.)

Now if people are looking for a more scientific approach to a doomsday scenario I would suggest people check into the physics of cosmic entropy or cosmological entropy.

( It's enough to make any person a pessimist, guaranteed.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_from_Big_Bang_to_Heat_Death


( Beyond cosmic entropy there are a dozen ways for the world to end with the extinction of life as we know it. You got to love the irony.)

( The great thing about cosmological entropy is that there is no escape from it in that it is cosmically inevitable where humanity is powerless in the face of it.)

(Imagine the expansion of space one day leading all of existence into extinction. Great stuff! Sure to please the apocalyptic fanatic.)

( I suppose cosmic entropy is the only thing that comforts me personally in knowing that the absurdity of humanity will someday be wiped out forever.)

BTW: Where will I be on Dec 22nd 2012?

I have already planned out my day which will probally begin with me going to the liqour store where afterwards I will go home and lounge around the house hoping that there is some rare if not impossible chance that there is somthing real about this superstition. ( Even when there most likely isn't.)

( Is it just another absurd hope of mine? Yeah but if nothing happens on that day atleast I'll have my alcohol.)





Edited by LordOf_illusions (03/02/09 12:25 PM)

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#22140 - 03/17/09 07:06 AM Re: 2012 [Re: LordOf_illusions]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
In 2012, Obama will still be president and we will be coming into the full effects of our financial crisis...the bailout bills will start to become due. (I mention Obama because - surprise, surprise! - seems he was full of just as much shit as the rest of them)...

In a way, life as we know it may very well end. Great Depression II, anyone?

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#22148 - 03/17/09 01:44 PM Re: 2012 [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
In a way, life as we know it may very well end. Great Depression II, anyone?

Don't mind.. every few decades something happens to the human race (on economics, social interaction, politics, science..) which might make a change on our normal lives.
I had this discussion once with a teacher who said the same thing and predicted that something WOULD occur which would be worldwide and leave a mark on history starting from the year 2002... Looks like he wasn't that far off..

Keeping the human psychology in mind; I just know there will be once again a time of balance where everything will work out fine. The normal riots, normal rapes in the streets, normal fraud cases,... Just let time do it's things and everything might work out fine. (I'd better mention not to sit back and watch.. taking sometimes own life at hands might make a change in the outcome.)
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#22182 - 03/18/09 04:39 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
that's easy for you to say, darlin'. Not living in america certainly has it's advantages when america is getting ass-fucked by it's own government.

I do anticipate something monumental within the next three years, though. Any fool who checks out their american federal government should feel the same way (did I just call myself a fool?)...

That one dude on here who keeps clucking around about revolution needs to start building his militia right now. That's not something one can accomplish overnight...

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#22183 - 03/18/09 04:44 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
that's easy for you to say, darlin'. Not living in america certainly has it's advantages when america is getting ass-fucked by it's own government.

Don't worry, US government isn't the only one fucking up..
Every country has it's own problems at the moment and are struggling to keep head above water.
America is only a bit bigger then most european countries. So if Us government fucks up.. well they really screw up many people.


Edited by Dimitri (03/18/09 04:47 AM)
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#22185 - 03/18/09 04:56 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Dimitri]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
I can dig that. My friends have a sheep station in Oz and they say that when the american dollar dips they lose loads of cash.

It's sad that such an egomaniacal country as this has so much say in how the world operates...

My American National Government instructor would be so disappointed in me...

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#22252 - 03/19/09 10:32 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ceruleansteel]
icu4whatur Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 21
I would imagine that they are not happy campers today. This will probably hit the bond market next. That's when you see state and local governments collapse.

This dip in the dollar was caused by the FED printing 300 Billion dollars this week. This means that we are now sliding headlong into hyperinflation. 300 Billion ain't shit.

This is a $500 Trillion problem. What a disgrace.

3-Day chart for the dollar


Edited by icu4whatur (03/19/09 10:33 AM)

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#42643 - 08/30/10 02:27 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland
I haven't researched the alleged apocalypse with any real enthusiasm, seems like a crock to me. But a thinker, or philosopher, I guess, whom I respect and am interested in had quite a bizarre theory regarding the whole 2012 thing. His name is Terrence McKenna, and he developed some software which he believed could calculate the presence and fluctuation of "novelty" in the universe.
He demonstrated this visually with the "Timewave Zero", which shows the universe's....uh, novelty, throuhgout the years, correlating with world wars and ceasar/jesus, etc. It increases drastically to previously unseen levels and then stop completely in 2012, no specific date. Basically he thought 2012 was to be a pivotal time in mankinds history.
Novelty theory was partly based on the I-Ching, so don't get your hopes up here... Like I said, I respect the man and many of his ideas, but I don't sharehis views here. He treated science as nothing more than an interesting theory, and generally speaking was a little "out there". Basically, gentleman be talking crazy.

I just found this interesting.
http://2012wiki.com/index.php?title=Novelty_theory_(Time_Wave_Zero)
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#42658 - 08/30/10 09:56 PM Re: 2012 [Re: Dedalus]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Dedalus
I just found this interesting.
[*url=http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newreply&Number=18002]http://2012wiki.com/index.php?title=Novelty_theory_(Time_Wave_Zero)[/url*]

Very interesting that you should fuck up a link so...

Novelty Theory

The symbol is something I have tattooed before. Now it seems connected to 2012.

Stinky man needed a shower and deodorant...

~T~

Tick-tock tick-tock are you prepared for 2012?
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#42660 - 08/31/10 02:53 AM Re: 2012 [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Tick-tock tick-tock are you prepared for 2012?

I have a shitload of pepsi (I don't like the regular coca cola), popcorn and crack-a-nuts ready. A few books to burn about the subject and a megaphone to laugh at the doomthinkers...
Does that count?
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#42662 - 08/31/10 06:58 AM Re: 2012 [Re: Butterz]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland
 Quote:
Interesting that you should fuck up a link, so..


Fuck it...cheers. Yeah he probably had some wildlife in his beard towards the end. I think that symbol on the left appears on all the pages, but there seems to be a broken link to a screenshot on the right of the wiki page, maybe you mean that.
The circular one on the left is quite nice in any case.
Dimitri's plan of action is the best I've heard so far.
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