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#18379 - 01/17/09 09:53 PM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Jake999]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Nothing will never replace intelligence Jack. And dependancy sometimes become stupidity. I recently saw at work poeple using an Excel spreadsheep without understanding it, without knowing what calculations were made automatically. They were just filling numbers and forwarding a sheet. Amazing !
This is unacceptable to me.

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#18385 - 01/18/09 12:20 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Fabiano]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I remember about 1,000 years ago, while I was in a high school Trigonometry class everybody had "Graphing calculators"... they were expensive "way back then", and I never purchased one. I still had a cheap ass "Scientific calculator".

I remember plotting points using the formula (it was horrible), and by the look of the formula, would know what to expect. I also had a little cheat sheet written out regarding cosine, sine...

Anyway, I remember we had some particular problem to work on... and everybody got out their damned little computer machines, and I got out a blank sheet of paper, and my calculator...

They had become so dependent on it, that when the formula they plugged got all fucked, they honestly didn't know what to do. I sat there like an idiot... drawing an axis and plotting.

I remember trying to help them, but since I never used their technology, and they actually had no understanding of the concept of what we were doing... it was a difficult experience. I had to get an instant crash course in "graphing calculator" to even try to help them understand what was going on.

Anyway, this is boring... the point is, like the Excel point, and Auto-CAD, if you can't "do it" with a piece of paper... technology is only going to get you so far.

Still, it would have been nice to have a graphing calculator...
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#18399 - 01/18/09 07:43 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When I was at school those calculators were as ridiculous as the first portable phones, more mass than function. We had to put them aside when doing the tests because it was seen as a negative benefit; you had to be able to do it without that stuff.
Calculating shit yourself was considered normal.

I think about a decade ago, I met the first kid that couldn't calculate shit if his life depended upon it. 17x3 was like asking him the meaning of life, you only got a dumb look and if he didn't type it in his electronic pocket brain, he wouldn't know the answer. It amazed me but what I considered an exception in those days, might be perfectly normal today.
I watched some BBC series some years ago where they stuffed kids from this era in a schooling system of some decades ago with the same material to learn and test. They looked like retards. It probably can be blamed upon the educational system.

D.

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#18403 - 01/18/09 11:13 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Jake999]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
What is the point of theoretical doomsaying? Don't you (Dimitri) have anything better to do than worry about what happens IF the internet crashes?

I'm not complaining when everything which is computerlinked is failing. Just curious about the opinions here of some members and how they think what the effects should be should most virtual and electrical technology fail.
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#18414 - 01/18/09 02:58 PM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

This is quite an interesting topic, many of this is predicted by the old Scifi writers... When robots are built and they take away the workload of a human, humanity then gets lazy and weak... Scary to realize where we are already with the brain weakening and people already becoming fat and lazy... The robots are barely here on a consumer level yet...

As people need to do less they will, they then want to work even less... I see this even in the tattoo industry... New artists are brought in on artistic skills alone and taught nothing of the craft other than how to make their mentor money... Build or tune the machines they use, make a needle, mix ink, broken clip cord what to do? Macrophage cells, spore tests what's that? Merssa (MRSA) anyone?

When I was leaving high school in 84 the younger classes already had kids who couldn't read an analog clock anymore... Today we see young people everywhere who work a cash register who cannot count back change to save their lives... Of course I must admit I do enjoy getting handed back $18 out of $25 for a $21 item...

Here in CT some stores such as Walgreen's have now gone back to a register that kicks out the coins itself... Stores like Dunkin Dognuts ;\) will not accept anything over a $20 bill anymore, is this because their are more counterfeit $50's and $100's? No not at all, it is because employers realize this dumbing down of their employee base...

Something that me and my best friend had talked about over 20 years ago... As the population grows those who lead would want a dumber population as they are easier to predict and/or control... After all with the current political structure the people in power want only to keep that power for themselves and their own... An educated intelligent person craves power him or herself and can therefore become a threat...

The groundwork for the latest change in public schooling happened in 2001 with the no child left behind act...

But to get back on topic, the answer is yes... By us relying on these "external brains" we are clearly losing as a species, the ability to do simple math as well as remember phone numbers...

What lies in the future?

~T~

P.S. The threat of technology failing in a massive way is reality... Google EMP attack... On that note disregarding the loss of brain function, should most virtual and electrical technology fail, life as we know it will change forever...


Edited by ta2zz (01/18/09 03:02 PM)
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#18431 - 01/19/09 12:02 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: ta2zz]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Just think if electricity went off for more than a week...

Think of the mayhem, the paranoia, think of how we get our food these days...

I think I'll bring my dog and cats indoors for that... and maybe go a huntin' for some fresh meat...
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#18434 - 01/19/09 08:09 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: daevid777]
spiderbreeder Offline
member


Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 300
Loc: Sydney,Australia
Back when I was in High School, we had calculators but were rarely allowed to use them, and the computers were only accessible to the kids who took the home computer elective class, which I never did.

I was really quick at doing basic adding and subtracting etc in my head, and didn't have to think much at all when I had to hand peoples change back to them in my younger years, but I've gotta say that ever since the micros cash registers started popping up all over the place about 10 years ago, my math skills have really faded.

Having a computer to think for me might have been attractive in the short term, but in the long term,my mental agility and powers of deduction concerning all things mathematical leave much to be desired.
I've started to count in my own head at work instead of relying on looking at the monitor for visual cues, and my brains slowly sharpening up again.

I think Jake is correct when he said that the new way of doing things can be beneficial if you already know the way of old...

But the kids that are born in to a situation where everything they need to know is just effortlessly provided to them at the touch of a button are missing out on an important part of their mental development.It's healthy for the brain to think out the "whys" and the "what fors" without punching a problem into a calculator and numbly accepting the answer that appears on the screen.

I'm still awesome at remembering phone numbers and people's names though, all is not lost!
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#18439 - 01/19/09 09:39 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: spiderbreeder]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I know it's going to be hard to believe for some of you, but calculators didn't exist when I went to school... well, not electric ones anyway. There were some little mechanical gizmos that you can find in antique shops these days, but when I did math in class, you had to do it with a pencil and paper and show the teacher how you arrived at your solution to the problem.

Texas International came out with the first personal calculator (T1) in 1967. I received one as a gift in 1969, just prior to leaving on my first military assignment. The thing just did rudementary math functions... cost about $85, which was a lot of money then. I was making $63 every two weeks, most of which went to my young wife while I was overseas, so an $85 was an extravagance that I would have never had, without the generosity of my parents.
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#18440 - 01/19/09 10:32 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Jake999]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
I know it's going to be hard to believe for some of you, but calculators didn't exist when I went to school... well, not electric ones anyway. There were some little mechanical gizmos that you can find in antique shops these days, but when I did math in class, you had to do it with a pencil and paper and show the teacher how you arrived at your solution to the problem.

Like the mathematics ruler? --> http://www.vallei.net/pleinen/leefomg/hobby/rekenlat/saristo1.gif Or however it is called in English..
I've still got one of those. Despite everyone of my age uses a calculator I've learned myself some old "tricks" to calculate. You never know when it might come in handy. And mostly in my opinion: most "older" techniques are still the best.
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#18442 - 01/19/09 11:27 AM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Sliderule in English...those were still in use well into the 80's. Used to have those to calculate the moments of longitudinal line for loading aircraft for correct weight and balance. Gets toooooooo complicated to do with just a pencil and paper, and could take you all day!

Here's an example of a "simple" one. Military cargo is HEAVY and requires quite a bit of computation.

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#18448 - 01/19/09 01:30 PM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: daevid777]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Just think if electricity went off for more than a week...

Think of the mayhem, the paranoia, think of how we get our food these days...

I think I'll bring my dog and cats indoors for that... and maybe go a huntin' for some fresh meat...


I don't know...we seemed to do pretty well during the last ice storm and some people were without power for close to a month. Maybe it's just the area that I live in...there are still loads of people around here who go off the back porch and shoot their dinner, can their homegrown veggies, and stockpile like devils.

I got pissed at the electric company once and shut my power off at the breaker. I got five weeks of protest in before I turned it back on. Of course, I didn't even own a computer then so it may have been different...

I'm not worried about myself and my family should it all go to hell. My home is defensible, I have almost three years of dry and canned goods, I can hunt/fish and prepare what I kill PLUS I know what I grows around here that can be eaten and where it grows...I know every square inch of ground for about five miles around me. I know how to purify water and make enough power to cover the bare necessities...etc.

The real problem is not in that people are letting machines think for them, it's in that people are RELYING on those machines and society in general for their very survival. Only a dumbass fails to have a contingency plan. To go through life expecting that everything is always going to be as you expect it to be and as you NEED it to be is utter folly. To DEPEND on it to be that way is suicide.

My "city friends" get a giggle out of me because I take my kids out to the middle of nowhere and "make" them eat wild food and learn about tracking/hunting/clean water/stockpiling/storing/etc., but when our famous tornadoes hit, or we get those hellish ice storms like we got in 2000, we're snuggled up cozy in our home just waiting it out (not a care in the world) while others are fistfighting in the dark at wal-mart for the last can of spam.

There is no shame in being self-reliant. And there is no shame in enjoying the best while planning for the worst. You could drop my five year old off in any terrain in the country and a few days later she would walk out with a full belly and an ass chewing for whomever was responsible for it.

So if 2012 means it all crashes down around us, meh. It'll give me an excuse to break out the platt maps. And forgive me for tying the two threads together, but that's what it looked like was happening anyway.


Edited by ceruleansteel (01/19/09 01:35 PM)
Edit Reason: realized I had tied the two threads together....had to apologize.

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#18449 - 01/19/09 02:05 PM Re: Raise of technology: downfall of humanity? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Yeah, the fact that you can't use the computer and have to calculate yourself isn't the biggest problem should technology fail en masse. The whole food chain comes to a halt and it'd be pretty hard for the ones that rely on it.

I'm one of those oldtimers that at an early age was taught what weed is eatable and how to home grow your own vegetables. I admit that I'd get rather skinny when having to live of what I can shoot in the wild here but in times of despair, I think cats or dogs might make a good meal too. Being self-reliant is an art but because there is no need, it is quickly forgotten or stops being passed on.

D.

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