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#18326 - 01/16/09 09:45 PM "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian"
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
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Forenote : this new topic is also a reply to this post from The Zebu, I advise you to read before going further.

What you described happened to me:
 Quote:
Although there are some people who are genuinely fucked up by life with things like drugs, and it took religious faith to give them the kick in the ass necessary to set themselves right.
When my life was pointless and I was close to suicide, I started to really struggle to give a sense to my life. I think I really started to sincerely seek for truth. In that sense, the Bible is right saying seek and you'll find. I actually managed to give a new sense to my life. Off course at that moment, you're more eager to escape the hell of reality for believing in something else. But I think it's a matter of self preservation.
If you believe in God's redemption, then all your past sins are cleared and this provides some relief to the psychological pain that comes from culpability. You recover some self-esteem and you are pushed to take again control over your life, your action. It gives you the sense of the responsibility.

After being "born again" I think it depends if you are in touch with a community of Xian or not. I had this "faith electroshock" while I was reading the Xian Bible alone. And I started to "struggle with my faith", alone as it should be done.
And that's why I'm against any church; it's a gathering of false Xians, "educated" Xians not really seeking for truth.
But what about the one who lived the same electroshock while listening at the speech of the priest? I don't judge...

To really put it in another light, let me quote the Talmud. It's about a man coming to a great rabbi, Hillel the Elder, and saying "If you can explain me the Thora in less than 30 sec, I'll convert to Judaism", to what Hillel replied:
 Quote:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.
. The point is not to debate here the moral/ethic expressed by this. The point is elsewhere:
If the whole Thora can be summarized to this simple sentence (and it's simple and accessible to everyone) why then there is a need to study it? The fact is that you have to know what is hateful to you doubled by the fact that you’re not long to observe that you can’t refrain yourself to do what is hateful to you to your neighbor is some situation.
You’ll come to realize that you’re behavior is guide by all sorts of ideas that came in your brain you don’t know how. By reading the Torah or any great philosophical or religious tradition, you’ll raise some essential questions. I personally debate them with my friends, etc. The life and the text play the role of the fire of scrutiny Dan already mentioned. But off-course it works only if you act as a true truth seeker with all your self-integrity and self-honesty. The Buddha is not saying the same, inviting you to analyze what he says rather than to swallow it? Walking like that, even on a RHP, you can gain some “altitude” and really better yourself. But you still have to know what is hateful to you. Free violence, vandalism? I do not like it. Vengeance? Here it is! Up to you to question yourself! I personally think that these sacred texts are so confusing and apparently self-contradictory that at the end it just pushes you to make your own idea of it. The problem is really with the churches telling you how you should interpret the text. But off-course discussing with another true truth seeker who is higher on the same path or another can be of great benefit.

The more I advanced on the Xian path the less I saw God as a person and more I was seeing it as a concept, a symbol of what is “good”. With modern Satanism, you directly consider Satan as a symbol, and realize how, at the end, “it’s all yours”.

I’ll finish by saying that it’s all about point of view. I can say there are Born Xians because it’s written that the name of the saved men are written on a tree. And I’m wondering if there are not people, seeing their life pointless and coming across TSB, who have the same kind of “revelation” or electroshock allowing them to start seeking truth, bettering themselves, etc. And if it’s the case, is it not similar to a Born Again experience ?
That’s what I like (amongst other) in Satanism. But I think many Satanists have a simplistic view of RHP religions and philosophies.

Thoughts?

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#18333 - 01/16/09 11:12 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
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Registered: 10/24/08
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I'm not sure I understand the topic. I'll start off though by saying comparing born Christians and Satanist is confusing. Are we saying that they are opposites? In that case it's a false dichotomy. If we're saying they are similar, I feel they have nothing in common and shouldn't be used in the same topic let alone the same sentence.
If it's about finding a moral code, well that's up to the individual.A person can always fuck up their life. They'll either figure out how to un-fuckit, or they won't. There is no objective moral outline for human behavior other than what we give it.
A born again experience is very shady terminology. All it refers to is when ones view of reality becomes no longer valid, often do to a negative experience, and another view is adopted to replace it. This is extremely subjective and the basis for brainwashing whether it be by the church, military, or the Manson family.


Edited by The AntiChris (01/16/09 11:14 PM)
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#18362 - 01/17/09 01:35 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
The Zebu Offline
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I wouldn't say opposites, but it does reflect a general idea that Christians sometimes tend to fight against human nature, whereas Satanists embrace it.

I once saw a shirt that said. "No thanks, I was born right the first time".

It made me lol.

: D


Edited by The Zebu (01/17/09 01:35 PM)
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#18377 - 01/17/09 09:36 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
A born again experience is very shady terminology. All it refers to is when ones view of reality becomes no longer valid, often do to a negative experience, and another view is adopted to replace it. This is extremely subjective and the basis for brainwashing whether it be by the church, military, or the Manson family.


Yes indeed! But notice it does not prevent to do several "born again" experiences in one life. Bettering your view of the reality, redrawing your "map".
That's why I say it's related to the "process of the fire of scrutiny .
If you discuss here and you come to realise you're views are wrong on some subject, you correct your map. It's only a small correction, but it's often "hard to admit". You fight and defend your idea before droping it.

If now your draw a map which is pure dream and is far from the reality, or an outdated one you did not reviewed since decades, it will be "very hard to admit". You will have to erase your lovely picture of your paradise world map. Oh my god, it was so beautifull and I spent some much time and energy in drawing it! So, when you come to realise this and admit it, it must be a kind of psychological electroshock reported as "born again great experience". But I tell you, you have to born again every day!

 Quote:
I once saw a shirt that said. "No thanks, I was born right the first time".

It made me lol.


Yeah, Im smiling also \:\) But beyond the joke, it's true! When one borns for the first time he's quite well adapted to the world. He sleeps when tired, eats when hungry and cries for his mother when something goes wrong. He has the right behaviour at the beginning but it's fucked up by the society that puts preconceived thinks in his brain very soon. It's sometimes called education \:\)

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#18419 - 01/18/09 07:20 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
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I couldn’t agree more Fabiano. I was just pointing out the dangers of the situation. To paraphrase how John Lilly put it, self development is in the programming of the human biocomputer, as long as one is in control of their own software!
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#18433 - 01/19/09 07:18 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Fabiano Offline
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Yes, and here we come to the opposition between existentialism views claiming the man is master of his acts, his destiniy and the values he decides to adpot; and the maerialism/physicalism views claiming that the mind is a physical thing in the sense it can always be "mapped" to some concrete fact occuring in the brain (so determined).

To me the truth is in between because while I cannot just omit facts reported by cognitive sciences, I cannot neither forgot that our thoughts, our choices, our acts, or more generaly said, our behaviour has physical effects on the brain throught neuroplasticity.

The brain is not a "fixed" computer running the mind software. He's also a variable auto-adaptative hardware shaped by the behavior of the software he runs. Introducing this feedback loop weakens the deterministic point of view.

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#18454 - 01/19/09 05:22 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

The brain is not a "fixed" computer running the mind software. He's also a variable auto-adaptative hardware shaped by the behavior of the software he runs.

For the purpose of the biocomputer model as put forth by Lilly, and then further by Bob Wilson and Leary, the hardware in this sense is "fixed" as being inside the skull, cellular, and even so far as to say bodily functions as breathing or even genetic traits and fixed imprints. Software is reserved for our "modeling of" or "mapping of" the universe. The universe it can be said is only what our nervous systems say it is and science does not disagree. The Copenhagen interpretation was just the beginning. Our measurements are only as good as our instruments including our brains.
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#18455 - 01/19/09 05:24 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Why would that weaken the deterministic view? What we do have is a computer that is capable of learning, being in this case, store data and due to that, has more options to pick from. Picking of course not as in free choice.

At no point that abandons the deterministic perspective or even weakens it.

D.

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#18456 - 01/19/09 05:58 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
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Either/Or philosophy should be buried with Aristotle. One can influence the outcome of any situation within the context of said situation. The computer model just gives one more tools to do so.
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#18457 - 01/19/09 06:15 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:
At no point that abandons the deterministic perspective or even weakens it.

Indeed. I would take that even further and say the only way to defeat the case for determinism would be to demonstrate a point at which 'cause and effect' ceases to happen, on the macro scale.
Good luck!
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#18465 - 01/19/09 08:23 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The AntiChris Offline
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Cause and effect is so passe. Not to be paradoxal, but to say macro and micro don't effect each other is absurd. Just add or take an atom of any molecule.
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#18467 - 01/19/09 08:30 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Way to effectively say nothing....

Whether or not you 'like' the fact of universal material cause and effect really doesn't mean shit. It is what it is.

And of course the macro and micro 'effect each other'. But many things that happen on the micro scale don't happen on the macro, and vice versa. Even on the micro scale it is doubtful there are any uncaused events, just undiscovered causes to events in a science of phenomenon we are just beginning to understand.

So..did you have a point or were you just typing to hear the clacking of your own keyboard?
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#18472 - 01/19/09 09:57 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The AntiChris Offline
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Listen Descartes died along time ago just after he proved the existence of god by the same route. I'm talking about theories of consciousness in relation to how we perceive space/time. See Einstein,Schrödinger and friends. If you can't see my point I suggest you get a library card.
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#18476 - 01/19/09 10:53 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

If you can't see my point I suggest you get a library card.

Assuming that I have not read the authors you are talking about..well..assuming makes an ass out of..well just you today.

I think perhaps you need to take a moment and articulate whatever it is you are trying to say more effectively. Are you trying to argue against cause and effect? Can you be coherent for once?

Perhaps you could start off with an example of an event with no cause.
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#18492 - 01/20/09 04:20 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Well Dan, if we talk about consciousness and someone pops up an old turtle like Schrödinger, what direction do you think we're going?
Yeah, the wonderful world of quantum-consciousness.

Btw, about consciousness I did see this movie this week which is rather interesting. I really hope I don't turn into a hippie after getting a stroke but besides that, it is a nice account of how your personality and grasp of the world fades when having one.

My stroke of insight

D.


Edited by Diavolo (01/20/09 04:52 AM)

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