Page 2 of 2 <12
Topic Options
#18494 - 01/20/09 07:05 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not going into another consciousness debate here, just picking up on determinism and free will.

At an up-quantum level it is not even a question, determinism is a fact there, even when chaos theory makes certain aspects incalculable. At a quantum level, some aspects, as perceived now, seem to be non-deterministic, or at least some parts of those aspects seem to be non-predictable. So if one is to uphold the assumption that QM is an end&all-theory and we can't go smaller or find underlying principles, determinism might indeed be proven to be wrong. The new super-collider might give new answers to it or not. Time will tell but considering the fact that everything at an up-QM level is deterministic, I would find it perfectly understandable that everything below it turns out to be deterministic too.

One of the main problems that people seem to have with determinism is that it disrupts the age-old idea that we are somehow special. That idea goes back into religion where we are god's chosen people that are granted free will and thus can decide what path to take, we can decide to be moral or amoral, to be saints or sinners. Determinism seems to undermine that very idea and it has severe ramifications at some levels. I fail to see those ramifications. It is not because we are restricted to an illusion of free will that we do not need to act as if this illusion is true. We cannot act differently and therefor have to act as if we posses it. Identical to how we act as if the world as we perceive it is the true world.

The answer to free will is also not to be found in philosophy, the answer is in evolution. There is no doubt that free will is a rather new principle when it comes to evolution. A couple of 100k years ago, there simply was no free will. One can't look at a virus or bacteria and claim it has free will. It's also pretty hard to look at an alligator or frog and consider it having free will. Now, the more complex and the more brain-investors a species becomes, the more we begin to see some level of free will. One of the requirements is the ability to choose and one can't choose without having a notion of self. If there is no self, every action is nothing but a response. When there is a self, there suddenly becomes choice, choice made possible by having the ability to select between stored data. It's this ability we call free will and the more data there is, the more probabilities it has, the more it begins to feel like free will.
But at no point it is more than a clever trick of nature, a survival mechanism that evolved. Laws of physics are identical now as they were 500.000 years ago, so if free will is not a trick of the mind, why isn't it in other organisms or proto-human species? Would a Cro-Magnon have the same free will as a current human? No, just like a chimpanzee does not have the same free will. It is subject to evolution and thus change.

An unborn to newly born infant is a parasite. It is an automated response machine that at no point has choice, not until it starts forming a self. After it forms a self and it begins to learn, it starts to develop more and more free will. So if free will is not determined, at what point does it miraculously appear?

The desperate clinging to free will is to me a desperate clinging to our specialness. Yes we are special compared to other species but not that special that we are above nature. That's religious thinking.

What also amuses me, and I'm not sure if you're subject to it, is that a lot of people invoking QM to disrupt determinism, at the same time elevate consciousness above its natural limitations and use the very same QM to state determinism is a fact. Example given; quantum consciousness that predicts events to mediums. Predictions are only possible in a deterministic environment.

D.

Top
#18495 - 01/20/09 07:38 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally I wasn't trying to argue anything at all. I was having a discussion about the human biocomputer model in relation to the topic (which is not determinism). Other than that I was just having some fun with the speculations that can arise out of the thinking games one can play with quantum physics. I wasn't attempting to "prove" anything. I have no emotional stake in whether free will exists or not. BTW aren't we still trying to figure out this pesky gravity theory? And isn't singularity a bugger. How would cause and effect work in the absence of time? What if the Earth wasn't flat?

Edited by The AntiChris (01/20/09 07:41 AM)
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18496 - 01/20/09 07:52 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what makes me a devout materialist? The fact that I can elaborate my opinion about it beyond; if -> there might?

If I'm not mistaking, you are the one sending others to the library but at the same time can't put any contra-argument in a solid shape. If you think determinism is wrong, feel free to say why. If you can't go beyond; go to the library or other vagueness; better don't say anything. And don't act as if you're just having fun; devout, pesky gravity and such points out you're not. You're filled with stuff you can't argue about and the mere fact that I defend determinism seems to make that obvious.

D.

Top
#18497 - 01/20/09 08:06 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Ug, I wasn't trying to state an argument. Just what if scenarios. Then arguing that these "what ifs" can be asked and are "fun" to think about. I actually feel the same as you stated in your previous post concerning determinism. Lighten up.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18498 - 01/20/09 08:33 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Oh but I'm not hurt if you're concerned about that. It's just that labels like devout puzzle me. I know, it is gone now, blame pesky QM.
This is not because of your post, I see it frequently on the web.

It's as if upholding an opinion that is accepted, plausible or provided with evidence is somewhat looked down upon, as if one is actually a mindless believer for thinking that the obvious is true and that anyone that thinks out of the box, including those that are so warped out they can't even remember what the box was, are suddenly free-thinkers.
I can imagine that in a couple of decades someone stating god created the universe will be regarded as a critical freethinker while people taking the scientific route will be regarded as religious drones. That's rather strange but when you consider a society where dumbness is cultivated, at some point, it will most likely be adored too.

D.

Top
#18499 - 01/20/09 08:49 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
I definitely agree with your point there. Have you seen these magazines that are published as if they were scientific reading but actually talk about how Noah got dinosaurs on the ark? That new Ben Stein documentary scared the shit out of me as well. Scary scary shit. I did remove the devout because I thought it was unfair. Didn't mean to freak you out...no 5th dimensional beings messing with our posts here.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18514 - 01/20/09 06:33 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I have few time to answer, my battery is nearly empty. \:\(

But just one question: if we don't have free will, what about responsability. How can we be responsible for choices we didn't really made?

Top
#18524 - 01/21/09 12:26 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3891
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Enter compatiblism. We DO have free will in that we 'choose' our own path. The fact that we 'choose' only what we will choose, and no other choice doesn't really matter. We still do what we do, choose what we choose and bear responsibility for those choices. If this seems unfair, it's because it is unfair. 'Fairness' is not really relevant.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#18579 - 01/22/09 12:07 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
We can choose "freely", but only within our options. Options are ALWAYS limited. We like to think that we can do whatever we want, but we can only do what oppertunity allows us to.

('Fairness' is not really relevant. )

- "Fairness" is just as illusiory as "free will", neither exist, it's just a neat idea; same as equality, eternal life of ANY form, creation, forgiveness, promise, apology and all that nonsense. Just an idea, nothing more.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

Top
Page 2 of 2 <12


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.022 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 22 queries. Zlib compression disabled.