Page all of 2 12>
Topic Options
#18326 - 01/16/09 09:45 PM "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian"
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Forenote : this new topic is also a reply to this post from The Zebu, I advise you to read before going further.

What you described happened to me:
 Quote:
Although there are some people who are genuinely fucked up by life with things like drugs, and it took religious faith to give them the kick in the ass necessary to set themselves right.
When my life was pointless and I was close to suicide, I started to really struggle to give a sense to my life. I think I really started to sincerely seek for truth. In that sense, the Bible is right saying seek and you'll find. I actually managed to give a new sense to my life. Off course at that moment, you're more eager to escape the hell of reality for believing in something else. But I think it's a matter of self preservation.
If you believe in God's redemption, then all your past sins are cleared and this provides some relief to the psychological pain that comes from culpability. You recover some self-esteem and you are pushed to take again control over your life, your action. It gives you the sense of the responsibility.

After being "born again" I think it depends if you are in touch with a community of Xian or not. I had this "faith electroshock" while I was reading the Xian Bible alone. And I started to "struggle with my faith", alone as it should be done.
And that's why I'm against any church; it's a gathering of false Xians, "educated" Xians not really seeking for truth.
But what about the one who lived the same electroshock while listening at the speech of the priest? I don't judge...

To really put it in another light, let me quote the Talmud. It's about a man coming to a great rabbi, Hillel the Elder, and saying "If you can explain me the Thora in less than 30 sec, I'll convert to Judaism", to what Hillel replied:
 Quote:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.
. The point is not to debate here the moral/ethic expressed by this. The point is elsewhere:
If the whole Thora can be summarized to this simple sentence (and it's simple and accessible to everyone) why then there is a need to study it? The fact is that you have to know what is hateful to you doubled by the fact that you’re not long to observe that you can’t refrain yourself to do what is hateful to you to your neighbor is some situation.
You’ll come to realize that you’re behavior is guide by all sorts of ideas that came in your brain you don’t know how. By reading the Torah or any great philosophical or religious tradition, you’ll raise some essential questions. I personally debate them with my friends, etc. The life and the text play the role of the fire of scrutiny Dan already mentioned. But off-course it works only if you act as a true truth seeker with all your self-integrity and self-honesty. The Buddha is not saying the same, inviting you to analyze what he says rather than to swallow it? Walking like that, even on a RHP, you can gain some “altitude” and really better yourself. But you still have to know what is hateful to you. Free violence, vandalism? I do not like it. Vengeance? Here it is! Up to you to question yourself! I personally think that these sacred texts are so confusing and apparently self-contradictory that at the end it just pushes you to make your own idea of it. The problem is really with the churches telling you how you should interpret the text. But off-course discussing with another true truth seeker who is higher on the same path or another can be of great benefit.

The more I advanced on the Xian path the less I saw God as a person and more I was seeing it as a concept, a symbol of what is “good”. With modern Satanism, you directly consider Satan as a symbol, and realize how, at the end, “it’s all yours”.

I’ll finish by saying that it’s all about point of view. I can say there are Born Xians because it’s written that the name of the saved men are written on a tree. And I’m wondering if there are not people, seeing their life pointless and coming across TSB, who have the same kind of “revelation” or electroshock allowing them to start seeking truth, bettering themselves, etc. And if it’s the case, is it not similar to a Born Again experience ?
That’s what I like (amongst other) in Satanism. But I think many Satanists have a simplistic view of RHP religions and philosophies.

Thoughts?

Top
#18333 - 01/16/09 11:12 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
I'm not sure I understand the topic. I'll start off though by saying comparing born Christians and Satanist is confusing. Are we saying that they are opposites? In that case it's a false dichotomy. If we're saying they are similar, I feel they have nothing in common and shouldn't be used in the same topic let alone the same sentence.
If it's about finding a moral code, well that's up to the individual.A person can always fuck up their life. They'll either figure out how to un-fuckit, or they won't. There is no objective moral outline for human behavior other than what we give it.
A born again experience is very shady terminology. All it refers to is when ones view of reality becomes no longer valid, often do to a negative experience, and another view is adopted to replace it. This is extremely subjective and the basis for brainwashing whether it be by the church, military, or the Manson family.


Edited by The AntiChris (01/16/09 11:14 PM)
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18362 - 01/17/09 01:35 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I wouldn't say opposites, but it does reflect a general idea that Christians sometimes tend to fight against human nature, whereas Satanists embrace it.

I once saw a shirt that said. "No thanks, I was born right the first time".

It made me lol.

: D


Edited by The Zebu (01/17/09 01:35 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#18377 - 01/17/09 09:36 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
A born again experience is very shady terminology. All it refers to is when ones view of reality becomes no longer valid, often do to a negative experience, and another view is adopted to replace it. This is extremely subjective and the basis for brainwashing whether it be by the church, military, or the Manson family.


Yes indeed! But notice it does not prevent to do several "born again" experiences in one life. Bettering your view of the reality, redrawing your "map".
That's why I say it's related to the "process of the fire of scrutiny .
If you discuss here and you come to realise you're views are wrong on some subject, you correct your map. It's only a small correction, but it's often "hard to admit". You fight and defend your idea before droping it.

If now your draw a map which is pure dream and is far from the reality, or an outdated one you did not reviewed since decades, it will be "very hard to admit". You will have to erase your lovely picture of your paradise world map. Oh my god, it was so beautifull and I spent some much time and energy in drawing it! So, when you come to realise this and admit it, it must be a kind of psychological electroshock reported as "born again great experience". But I tell you, you have to born again every day!

 Quote:
I once saw a shirt that said. "No thanks, I was born right the first time".

It made me lol.


Yeah, Im smiling also \:\) But beyond the joke, it's true! When one borns for the first time he's quite well adapted to the world. He sleeps when tired, eats when hungry and cries for his mother when something goes wrong. He has the right behaviour at the beginning but it's fucked up by the society that puts preconceived thinks in his brain very soon. It's sometimes called education \:\)

Top
#18419 - 01/18/09 07:20 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
I couldn’t agree more Fabiano. I was just pointing out the dangers of the situation. To paraphrase how John Lilly put it, self development is in the programming of the human biocomputer, as long as one is in control of their own software!
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18433 - 01/19/09 07:18 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Yes, and here we come to the opposition between existentialism views claiming the man is master of his acts, his destiniy and the values he decides to adpot; and the maerialism/physicalism views claiming that the mind is a physical thing in the sense it can always be "mapped" to some concrete fact occuring in the brain (so determined).

To me the truth is in between because while I cannot just omit facts reported by cognitive sciences, I cannot neither forgot that our thoughts, our choices, our acts, or more generaly said, our behaviour has physical effects on the brain throught neuroplasticity.

The brain is not a "fixed" computer running the mind software. He's also a variable auto-adaptative hardware shaped by the behavior of the software he runs. Introducing this feedback loop weakens the deterministic point of view.

Top
#18454 - 01/19/09 05:22 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

The brain is not a "fixed" computer running the mind software. He's also a variable auto-adaptative hardware shaped by the behavior of the software he runs.

For the purpose of the biocomputer model as put forth by Lilly, and then further by Bob Wilson and Leary, the hardware in this sense is "fixed" as being inside the skull, cellular, and even so far as to say bodily functions as breathing or even genetic traits and fixed imprints. Software is reserved for our "modeling of" or "mapping of" the universe. The universe it can be said is only what our nervous systems say it is and science does not disagree. The Copenhagen interpretation was just the beginning. Our measurements are only as good as our instruments including our brains.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18455 - 01/19/09 05:24 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why would that weaken the deterministic view? What we do have is a computer that is capable of learning, being in this case, store data and due to that, has more options to pick from. Picking of course not as in free choice.

At no point that abandons the deterministic perspective or even weakens it.

D.

Top
#18456 - 01/19/09 05:58 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Either/Or philosophy should be buried with Aristotle. One can influence the outcome of any situation within the context of said situation. The computer model just gives one more tools to do so.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18457 - 01/19/09 06:15 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
At no point that abandons the deterministic perspective or even weakens it.

Indeed. I would take that even further and say the only way to defeat the case for determinism would be to demonstrate a point at which 'cause and effect' ceases to happen, on the macro scale.
Good luck!
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#18465 - 01/19/09 08:23 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Cause and effect is so passe. Not to be paradoxal, but to say macro and micro don't effect each other is absurd. Just add or take an atom of any molecule.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18467 - 01/19/09 08:30 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Way to effectively say nothing....

Whether or not you 'like' the fact of universal material cause and effect really doesn't mean shit. It is what it is.

And of course the macro and micro 'effect each other'. But many things that happen on the micro scale don't happen on the macro, and vice versa. Even on the micro scale it is doubtful there are any uncaused events, just undiscovered causes to events in a science of phenomenon we are just beginning to understand.

So..did you have a point or were you just typing to hear the clacking of your own keyboard?
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#18472 - 01/19/09 09:57 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Listen Descartes died along time ago just after he proved the existence of god by the same route. I'm talking about theories of consciousness in relation to how we perceive space/time. See Einstein,Schrödinger and friends. If you can't see my point I suggest you get a library card.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18476 - 01/19/09 10:53 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

If you can't see my point I suggest you get a library card.

Assuming that I have not read the authors you are talking about..well..assuming makes an ass out of..well just you today.

I think perhaps you need to take a moment and articulate whatever it is you are trying to say more effectively. Are you trying to argue against cause and effect? Can you be coherent for once?

Perhaps you could start off with an example of an event with no cause.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#18492 - 01/20/09 04:20 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Well Dan, if we talk about consciousness and someone pops up an old turtle like Schrödinger, what direction do you think we're going?
Yeah, the wonderful world of quantum-consciousness.

Btw, about consciousness I did see this movie this week which is rather interesting. I really hope I don't turn into a hippie after getting a stroke but besides that, it is a nice account of how your personality and grasp of the world fades when having one.

My stroke of insight

D.


Edited by Diavolo (01/20/09 04:52 AM)

Top
#18494 - 01/20/09 07:05 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not going into another consciousness debate here, just picking up on determinism and free will.

At an up-quantum level it is not even a question, determinism is a fact there, even when chaos theory makes certain aspects incalculable. At a quantum level, some aspects, as perceived now, seem to be non-deterministic, or at least some parts of those aspects seem to be non-predictable. So if one is to uphold the assumption that QM is an end&all-theory and we can't go smaller or find underlying principles, determinism might indeed be proven to be wrong. The new super-collider might give new answers to it or not. Time will tell but considering the fact that everything at an up-QM level is deterministic, I would find it perfectly understandable that everything below it turns out to be deterministic too.

One of the main problems that people seem to have with determinism is that it disrupts the age-old idea that we are somehow special. That idea goes back into religion where we are god's chosen people that are granted free will and thus can decide what path to take, we can decide to be moral or amoral, to be saints or sinners. Determinism seems to undermine that very idea and it has severe ramifications at some levels. I fail to see those ramifications. It is not because we are restricted to an illusion of free will that we do not need to act as if this illusion is true. We cannot act differently and therefor have to act as if we posses it. Identical to how we act as if the world as we perceive it is the true world.

The answer to free will is also not to be found in philosophy, the answer is in evolution. There is no doubt that free will is a rather new principle when it comes to evolution. A couple of 100k years ago, there simply was no free will. One can't look at a virus or bacteria and claim it has free will. It's also pretty hard to look at an alligator or frog and consider it having free will. Now, the more complex and the more brain-investors a species becomes, the more we begin to see some level of free will. One of the requirements is the ability to choose and one can't choose without having a notion of self. If there is no self, every action is nothing but a response. When there is a self, there suddenly becomes choice, choice made possible by having the ability to select between stored data. It's this ability we call free will and the more data there is, the more probabilities it has, the more it begins to feel like free will.
But at no point it is more than a clever trick of nature, a survival mechanism that evolved. Laws of physics are identical now as they were 500.000 years ago, so if free will is not a trick of the mind, why isn't it in other organisms or proto-human species? Would a Cro-Magnon have the same free will as a current human? No, just like a chimpanzee does not have the same free will. It is subject to evolution and thus change.

An unborn to newly born infant is a parasite. It is an automated response machine that at no point has choice, not until it starts forming a self. After it forms a self and it begins to learn, it starts to develop more and more free will. So if free will is not determined, at what point does it miraculously appear?

The desperate clinging to free will is to me a desperate clinging to our specialness. Yes we are special compared to other species but not that special that we are above nature. That's religious thinking.

What also amuses me, and I'm not sure if you're subject to it, is that a lot of people invoking QM to disrupt determinism, at the same time elevate consciousness above its natural limitations and use the very same QM to state determinism is a fact. Example given; quantum consciousness that predicts events to mediums. Predictions are only possible in a deterministic environment.

D.

Top
#18495 - 01/20/09 07:38 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally I wasn't trying to argue anything at all. I was having a discussion about the human biocomputer model in relation to the topic (which is not determinism). Other than that I was just having some fun with the speculations that can arise out of the thinking games one can play with quantum physics. I wasn't attempting to "prove" anything. I have no emotional stake in whether free will exists or not. BTW aren't we still trying to figure out this pesky gravity theory? And isn't singularity a bugger. How would cause and effect work in the absence of time? What if the Earth wasn't flat?

Edited by The AntiChris (01/20/09 07:41 AM)
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18496 - 01/20/09 07:52 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what makes me a devout materialist? The fact that I can elaborate my opinion about it beyond; if -> there might?

If I'm not mistaking, you are the one sending others to the library but at the same time can't put any contra-argument in a solid shape. If you think determinism is wrong, feel free to say why. If you can't go beyond; go to the library or other vagueness; better don't say anything. And don't act as if you're just having fun; devout, pesky gravity and such points out you're not. You're filled with stuff you can't argue about and the mere fact that I defend determinism seems to make that obvious.

D.

Top
#18497 - 01/20/09 08:06 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
Ug, I wasn't trying to state an argument. Just what if scenarios. Then arguing that these "what ifs" can be asked and are "fun" to think about. I actually feel the same as you stated in your previous post concerning determinism. Lighten up.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18498 - 01/20/09 08:33 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Oh but I'm not hurt if you're concerned about that. It's just that labels like devout puzzle me. I know, it is gone now, blame pesky QM.
This is not because of your post, I see it frequently on the web.

It's as if upholding an opinion that is accepted, plausible or provided with evidence is somewhat looked down upon, as if one is actually a mindless believer for thinking that the obvious is true and that anyone that thinks out of the box, including those that are so warped out they can't even remember what the box was, are suddenly free-thinkers.
I can imagine that in a couple of decades someone stating god created the universe will be regarded as a critical freethinker while people taking the scientific route will be regarded as religious drones. That's rather strange but when you consider a society where dumbness is cultivated, at some point, it will most likely be adored too.

D.

Top
#18499 - 01/20/09 08:49 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Diavolo]
The AntiChris Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Pennsylvania
I definitely agree with your point there. Have you seen these magazines that are published as if they were scientific reading but actually talk about how Noah got dinosaurs on the ark? That new Ben Stein documentary scared the shit out of me as well. Scary scary shit. I did remove the devout because I thought it was unfair. Didn't mean to freak you out...no 5th dimensional beings messing with our posts here.
_________________________
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.

Top
#18514 - 01/20/09 06:33 PM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: The AntiChris]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I have few time to answer, my battery is nearly empty. \:\(

But just one question: if we don't have free will, what about responsability. How can we be responsible for choices we didn't really made?

Top
#18524 - 01/21/09 12:26 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Enter compatiblism. We DO have free will in that we 'choose' our own path. The fact that we 'choose' only what we will choose, and no other choice doesn't really matter. We still do what we do, choose what we choose and bear responsibility for those choices. If this seems unfair, it's because it is unfair. 'Fairness' is not really relevant.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#18579 - 01/22/09 12:07 AM Re: "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian" [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
We can choose "freely", but only within our options. Options are ALWAYS limited. We like to think that we can do whatever we want, but we can only do what oppertunity allows us to.

('Fairness' is not really relevant. )

- "Fairness" is just as illusiory as "free will", neither exist, it's just a neat idea; same as equality, eternal life of ANY form, creation, forgiveness, promise, apology and all that nonsense. Just an idea, nothing more.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

Top
Page all of 2 12>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.034 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 37 queries. Zlib compression disabled.