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#19635 - 02/04/09 12:36 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Dimitri]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Actually, the US has the power to get rid of them. It's only immoral and in contradiction with human rights which holds them back.


Would you mind explaining how exactly it is "immoral and in contradiction with human rights"? It would seem to me that the continued US support for Israel and their "inhumane" treatment of the Palestinians is more "immoral" etc.

The fact is, up until the end of WWII there was no Israel. They were given that strip of dirt to get them to shut up. (from what i've seen the place is a shithole and not worth killing/dying over)

The US government still feels somewhat responsible for the Holocaust, or at least a little guilty for waiting so long to enter the war. Because of that they feel indebted to them. Yes I know it is stupid, but that is the way it is.

In a way it is kind of like the indians being given the right to own casinos and grow peyote... "Hey there, sorry about the whole trail of tears thing and trying to wipe out your entire civilization....but as a consellation you can gamble and get high legally" (I am aware that not all indians own casionos and/or use peyote)

Also, one can not forget the strangle hold of manipulation they (the jews) have on US foreign policy through control of the World Bank etc. Just so we are clear, that is not an anti-semetic statment, it is the truth.

If the US government really gave a shit about making sure genocide never happened again they would have dones something about the situation in Darfur by now. Not to mention countless other instances where the US just stood back and watched.

Morgan is absolutely correct when she says the situation over there is just going to get worse and the best thing we can do is sit back and watch.

If they want to blow each other up, let them, but make sure they have to supply their own damn explosives. The only thing that will be achieved from the US continuing to support Israel is a rise in anti-american sentiment from the middle east and they hate us enough as it is.
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#19639 - 02/04/09 01:48 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Would you mind explaining how exactly it is "immoral and in contradiction with human rights"? It would seem to me that the continued US support for Israel and their "inhumane" treatment of the Palestinians is more "immoral" etc.

I'm not talking about supporting both of them.
I'm only mentioning they have the power to stop it once and for all without support to either of them. Or in better words: NUKE the fucking place. Some well-dropped "super-bombs" and missiles could easily erase all the problems. Surely they should pay a price for it, but it is way cheaper than literally pumping billions of $ in a war that continues.

What do you prefer? A war on a long base where there are only losses and you are sure of the problems will stay?
Or a short hard descision which erases all?

 Quote:
Morgan is absolutely correct when she says the situation over there is just going to get worse and the best thing we can do is sit back and watch.

I didn't disagree with her, read a bit better.

 Quote:
Not to mention countless other instances where the US just stood back and watched.

This sounds so egocentristic. Call things by their name.
So this sentence in my opinion should change from "stood back and watched" towards "don't give a damn".


Edited by Dimitri (02/04/09 01:53 PM)
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#19642 - 02/04/09 02:35 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Dimitri]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
NUKE the fucking place. Some well-dropped "super-bombs" and missiles could easily erase all the problems.


Are you fucking kidding me? I can assure you that your suggestion that we "NUKE the fucking place." Would not easily erase all the problems. Quite to the contrary it would create way more problems.

Unless you are the drawing the conclusion that the nuking of them would cause every other country with nuclear weapons to launch theirs; pretty much destroying all life on earth. If that is what you are getting at, then yes, it would erase all the problems.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Surely they should pay a price for it, but it is way cheaper than literally pumping billions of $ in a war that continues.


Yes, the flow of money should stop. I am not diagreeing there. However, you didn't answer my original question. How would it be immoral for the US to pull their support for Israel? And I am not talking about supporting the Palestinians either. I mean the US governement out of that entire conflict.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
What do you prefer? A war on a long base where there are only losses and you are sure of the problems will stay? Or a short hard descision which erases all?


I would prefer the US stays out of it, period. I don't care if they want to blow each other up. I have already made that point clear; or at least I thought I did. Your "short hard decision that will erase all" will not really erase all sans nuclear apocalypse.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I didn't disagree with her, read a bit better.


Right, because I said you disagreed with her......

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Not to mention countless other instances where the US just stood back and watched.

This sounds so egocentristic. Call things by their name.
So this sentence in my opinion should change from "stood back and watched" towards "don't give a damn".


Egocentric? I may have a bit of an ego, but that is besides the point; so fuck you. \:\) Call it standing back and watching, or not giving a damn, it is the same exact thing. One simply describes what they did while the other describes why. Which is exactly the point I was making in the first place.
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#19644 - 02/04/09 02:58 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Are you fucking kidding me? I can assure you that your suggestion that we "NUKE the fucking place." Would not easily erase all the problems. Quite to the contrary it would create way more problems.

And in my opinion I think it will.
This is getting opinion vs opinion and being a smart guy I know this could go on endlesly. So don't even try...

 Quote:
How would it be immoral for the US to pull their support for Israel?

Already highlighted that part, read again.
And if you are being to tired/lazy/other things where I might be accused of flaming/... --> Nuking to some is immoral and against human rights since most people tend not to survive it in a pretty cruel way....

 Quote:
Call it standing back and watching, or not giving a damn, it is the same exact thing.

They aren't. "Standing back and watching" can be interpretated as: "looking at a certain action without actual physical involvement but having a feeling about it".
And "don't give a damn"... well that part is clear...
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#19645 - 02/04/09 03:27 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Dimitri]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
If I may, nukes would NOT be the way to go. That option is a bit irresponsible right now. The negative effects on the environment could be too costly. It would be far wiser to use biological warfare. Using germs for genocide/ethnic cleansing would be far easier to clean up and would take much less time, and assuming we used one that only effected humans would be great so we could let scavengers clean up the mess naturally. Containment would be a dificult issue however.
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#19646 - 02/04/09 03:31 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: blsk]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
If I may, nukes would NOT be the way to go. That option is a bit irresponsible right now. The negative effects on the environment could be too costly.

Like the environnement right now is that clean...

 Quote:
It would be far wiser to use biological warfare.

Good call, would fail also..
If I'm not mistaken they did a test once in Great-brittain with biological warfare... almost20-30 years ago?
Anyway, the site is still prohibited, it seems clean, but no animal could survive, only plants...
The dangerous part of biological warfare is the fact that it is uncontrolled to a certain degree once put in action.
Microbs, viruses and other pathogenes tend to spread quite fast over kilometers in some minutes. While radioactivity can be controlled. We can calculate roughly where a "fall-out" may occur and where a safe distance is from the actual explosion.


Edited by Dimitri (02/04/09 03:35 PM)
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#19647 - 02/04/09 03:39 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Dimitri]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
I may be giving the govt. too much credit here but I think 20-30 years could allow us to provide a more successful germ, also you mentioning plants reminded me that scientists have been using fungi to clean contaminated sites. I think that would be great. The animals could repopulate later, kill the people, count your losses(consisder the animals collateral damage) and use fungi to clean up naturally.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#19949 - 02/08/09 09:42 AM Re: ordered by god [Re: blsk]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
It has been my experience that people who talk about the Palestinian problem usually don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Really, spend a year living in that part of the world and get back to me.

I would say that in general, Palestinians and Israelis are two groups of people who deserve each other. No Muslim nation wanted to accept Palestinian refugees and most of the population of Israel is made of people who were encouraged to leave Europe.

Israel for it's part is at least made up of people who came from a Western background who at the very least understand things like democracy and rule of law.
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#21670 - 03/07/09 02:05 AM Re: ordered by god [Re: Fist]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
I am not fond of Jews.
Not that fond of Moslems either...

I have no love for Israel.
But I detest Hamas as well.

If someone kept on firing rockets against my friends & neighbours. I am quite sure that I would have had enough after a while.
In my view; the Israeli military aggression is both justified and quite understandable.

Anyways; "the strip of desert" (Palestine) was another mans land.
And this land was given away by the UN in order to feel better about allowing the distasteful Holocaust-thingie to happen.
Bad idea, really bad idea...

Jews and Arabs are basically the same people, both populations are Semitic.
(The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites, "wiki-quote".)
But; the Jews is claiming to be Gods own people, and tend to be a tad superior about it...

Bit about the workings of Israeli culture (also scissored from Wikipedia), which might explain a thing or two:

By the time the State of Israel was proclaimed, the majority of Jews in the state and the region were Ashkenazi (European Jews). Following the declaration of the state, a flood of Jewish migrants and refugees entered Israel from the Arab world and the Muslim world in general. Most were Sephardim and Mizrahim, Jews from the Maghreb, Yemenite Jews, Bukhorim, Persian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, and smaller communities, principally from Libya, Egypt and Turkey. More recently, other communities have also arrived including Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews. Because of the relative homogeneity of Ashkenazic Jewry, especially by comparison to the diversity of the many smaller communities, over time in Israel, all Jews from Europe came to be called "Ashkenazi" in Israel, whether or not they had any connection with Germany, while Jews from Africa and Asia have come to be called "Sephardi", whether or not they had any connection with Spain. One reason is that most African and Asian Jewish communities use the Sephardic prayer ritual and abide by the rulings of Sephardic rabbinic authorities, and therefore consider themselves to be "Sephardim" in the broader sense of "Jews of the Spanish rite", though not in the narrower sense of "Spanish Jews". Similarly "Ashkenazim" has the broader sense of "Jews of the German rite".

The founders of modern Israel, mostly European-descended people, believed themselves superior to these new arrivals. With higher degrees of Western-standard education, they were better positioned to take full advantage of the emerging Western-style liberal democracy and Western mode of living which they themselves had established as the cultural norm in Palestine during the pre-state era.

Cultural and/or "racial" biases against the newcomers were compounded by the fledgling state's lack of financial resources and inadequate housing to handle the massive population influx. Thus, hundreds of thousands of new Sephardic immigrants were sent to live in tent cities in outlying areas. Sephardim (in its wider meaning) were often victims of discrimination, and were sometimes called schwartze (meaning "black" in Yiddish). One immigrant from Iraq recalls being given a tent when first arriving in Israel, while a neighbor from Germany was given an apartment. Those Sephardic Jews lucky enough to get an apartment were placed in inexpensive concrete apartment blocks that were for the most part of a lesser standard than those erected to house Europeans or Westerners.

Worse than housing discrimination was the differential treatment accorded the children of these immigrants, many of whom were tracked by the largely European education establishment into dead-end "vocational" schools, without any real assessment of their intellectual capacities. Mizrahi Jews protested their unfair treatment, and even established the Israeli Black Panthers movement with the mission of working for social justice.

The effects of this early discrimination still linger a half-century later, as documented by the studies of the Adva Center [18], a highly respected think tank on social equality, and by other Israeli academic research (cf., for example, Tel Aviv University Professor Yehuda Shenhav's article in Hebrew documenting the gross underrepresentation of Sephardic Jewry in Israeli high school history textbooks, [19]. Every Israeli prime minister has been Ashkenazi, although Sephardim and Mizrahim have attained the (ceremonial) presidency and other high positions. The student bodies of Israel's universities remain overwhelmingly European in origin, despite the fact that roughly half the country's population is non-European. And the tent cities of the 1950s morphed into so-called "development towns". Scattered over border areas of the Negev Desert and the Galilee, far from the bright lights of Israel's major cities, most of these towns never had the critical mass or ingredients to succeed as places to live, and they continue to suffer from high unemployment, inferior schools, and chronic brain drain.

While the Israeli Black Panthers no longer exist, [19] the Mizrahi Democratic Rainbow Coalition and many other NGOs carry on the struggle for equal access and opportunity in housing, education, and employment for the country's underprivileged populace - still largely composed of Sephardim and Mizrahim, joined now by newer immigrants from Ethiopia and the Caucasus Mountains.

Intermarriage of all these regathered Jewish ethnic groups was initially uncommon, due in part to distances of each group's settlement in Israel, and cultural and/or "racial" biases. In recent generations, however, the barriers were lowered by state sponsored assimilation of all the Jewish ethnic groups into a common Sabra (native-born Israeli) identity which facilitated extensive "mixed-marriages".
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#24279 - 05/08/09 05:44 AM Re: ordered by god [Re: Woland]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
although this is an older thread, i'm curious to understand the tendency towards anti-semitism that i'm clearly reading.

what is the purpose of such nationalistic distinctions with regard to race?

why not recognize israel as possibly something separate from "jews"? jews are not necessarily in agreement with israel's cause. many jews are as far removed from the israeli nation and cause (and the jewish religion), as black americans are from the congo, or those with non-jewish european backgrounds are from christianity.

this is tantamount to declaring anyone on this forum with such ancestral roots as christian.

muslims, on the other hand, are definitely religious, although not every muslim is arabic.

pigeon-holing and targeting jews as somehow in favor of an ethnically cleansed israeli state is inaccurate, and would be inaccurate in the case of any diasporic ethnic group.

can someone explain this logically to me?
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#24292 - 05/08/09 03:29 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: miriam]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
clarification-
this is not to say i didn't find the video informative and refreshing. finally, something mainstream that is questioning a situation which is, due to aforementioned guilt, taboo.
it also doesn't mean i think anyone on here is christian or white, or that i care what ethnic background you have. i just wondered if there could be more of a distinction made between israelis (who are jewish), and jews (who are not necessarily israeli or religious).
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#24294 - 05/08/09 04:23 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: miriam]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course there can be a distinction between Jews and Israelis. But Jew, as used in many cases here, does not relate to geography or religion as much as to culture. And there is a difference between Jews located in Israel and Jews located in other parts of the world, as much as there is a difference in Turks here or in their own country. And like with everything there is a difference between the Jews themselves.

Still, when people debate it here, they often debate about the things they dislike. And of course this isn't the absolute truth. Not everything is black and white and not all Jews are National-Zionists but at the same time, one has to take a position on things because being a relativist doesn't lead anywhere except into degeneration. For every argument contra, there is an example pro but it's not because someone gives you 50$ for each blow to your head that it makes things all right.

Am I antisemitic? No, certainly not and at the same time I surely am. If you explain antisemitic as hating Jews, I am not. If you explain antisemitic as hating certain dominant aspects of Jewish culture whether here or in Israel, I am without a doubt. Of course, antisemitic is as easily thrown around as the racist accusation. Criticism nowadays equals racism or antisemitism; it's the easiest way to make the other party appear less credible.

D.

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#24299 - 05/08/09 08:28 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Diavolo]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
daniella weiss is obviously not alone in her efforts to prevent a peace deal, and her zeal is hypocritical to say the least. the entire state of affairs in israel is hypocritical. but assuming that this is how all jews are is an oversimplification.

where does branding jews lead? certainly not toward relativism.
being anti-israel is, to me at least, not a wholly unwise stance. if you want to criticize jewish culture, go ahead. but a well thought out criticism of jewish culture does not seem to present itself in this thread.
in fact, i have seen very few references to jewish culture at all; but i have read a lot of misinformation. for instance, i know it was said in jest, but the jews did not kill jesus (too bad...)

there are some points that are very well stated without being particularly anti-semitic. here is a logical criticism, to quote nemesis: " The only reason I can justify the US's continued presence in Israel and its defense thereof, is that it keeps the Middle East in a state of constant turmoil. When everyone's busy hating the Jews, and Palestinians are firing rockets here and Israel's firing theirs over there, who's got the time or resources to form powerful unions? Unions that could make the Middle East a strong, and feared international force to reckon with."

all i'm trying to say is that there are well-founded objections to US involvement in israel in this thread, good solid criticisms. why pepper them with blanket inaccurate statements about "jews" being rich or manipulative, or deserving the nazi holocaust?

it's unfortunate that the appellation "racism" is often used in the media to discredit worthwhile political (and ethno-political) critiques. however, is it possible such opinions will have a greater impact and more validity if the appraisal is not seasoned with aspersions?
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#24300 - 05/08/09 08:35 PM Re: ordered by god [Re: Diavolo]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
slightly off topic, but here are some other interesting examples of religious extremists who believe they've been chosen or ordered by god to do inane shit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anwsku-9IiY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIoFiDE2awM&feature=related
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#24305 - 05/09/09 12:55 AM Re: ordered by god [Re: miriam]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Look in a nutshell, people are stupid and manipulitive.

People will twist information to their own views.

In my life, my tattoo artist is a Satanist(former Jew) born in Isreal.
My old slave was an Isreal jew.
I found out tonight a jew tried to help the south get the backing of france and england against the north, during the civil war.

People will do whatever is necessary to make money and survive.

When people live up to their sterotypes, they are their own sterotypes.

I think its a matter of looking at the big pictue and outside the box.

Isreal was created after world war II, because no one country wanted them.

Isreal is now doing to the Palenstines the same thing that was done to them by the Nazi's.

Its not a matter of being rasist, it's a matter of just disliking people for being an asshole.

Morgan
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