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#20541 - 02/16/09 09:48 PM Pentagonal Revisionism
Zoid Offline
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We didn't have a thread that's focused on Pentagonal Revisionism, so now we do. Any discussion of the Five Point Program would be on topic here.

What's in my head tonight is - "What if clones were substituted for artificial companions?"

Thus the fourth point would become, "Development and Production of Human Clones," and the fifth point would include the concept of clones being programmed to fill roles in a total environment.

The Christian church would vehemently oppose this, which gets us to the third point - the rejection of religion as a valid foundation for secular law - and the second point - taxing churches as a way of undermining their privileged financial position and thus weakening them.

And of course the existence of clones developed and programmed to be slaves is an example of stratification, albeit founded on a different premise than LaVey described, which was a meritocracy.

Does this imaginary scenario horrify you? I just keep wondering how long it will be, until we finally hear of someone, somewhere, successfully cloning a human being - and how long after that, until we hear of clone farms selling human clones on the black market. It seems to me it's just a matter of time.

Why bring this up? Because it begs a question. Why are we OK - assuming we are - with the original fourth point, the development and production of artificial human companions; I.e., androids? Is it because we assume an android won't be sapient? What if we're wrong about that? What if we are astonished to discover sapience in some super-advanced android of the future? Does the fourth point become unacceptable? Or is this question ludicrous because we somehow can prove the impossibility of sapience arising in an android?

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#20544 - 02/16/09 11:10 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
Morbid Rex Offline
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The way I see it we already use "robots" to make our lives easier. Any technology that we apply to our lives (i.e. Microwave, toaster) can be seen as a primitive "robot." And let's not forget the simple droid-like companion robots that already exist.

Technology is still in a very primitive stage despite how far we've come. Artificial Human Companions are worth working towards, and we'll no doubt see major issues regarding them in the future, but I believe it's a box that should be very carefully opened. I'm personally against developing any type of Android that can develop mental capacities beyond it's fundamental task/tasks. An Android that cooks breakfast or plays the piano on command is find and dandy to me, but developing machines that can reason would be crossing uncertain waters.

Also I'd be against developing Human clones programmed for rudimentary tasks. The human animal has proven itself to be one of the highest embodiments of life on this planet, creating actual living human clones which serve no purpose other then to be our lowly slaves seems to me to be a nauseating perversion of natural freedom, which is essentially what Satanism is about.
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#20548 - 02/17/09 12:06 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morbid Rex]
spiderbreeder Offline
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From where I'm standing , the developement of a 'clone' that has the physical and mental potential to think and act on our level totally negates the original reasons for developing 'artificial companions' in the first place.

You could do anything you pleased to an AC - you couldn't to a clone.(Not without some kind of 'human repercussions'anyway)
If you ordered your AC to be your personal slave, go stand on it's head in the corner for an hour, or any number of other examples I could list here, It would comply without hesitation as it has been 'manufactured' to do so.

A clone wouldn't, due to being able to think/feel for itself.

Personally, I would prefer an AC over a clone anyday- the ideal AC is going to be tailored to my individual needs and desires, with the added bonus of being able to be 'switched off' when I require solitude, which can be up to days at a time...

A clone would have the mental capacity to get pissed off if I ignored it, and wouldn't I have to feed the bloody thing?

I agree with Morbid, in that cloning is a box that should be opened very slowly.

If a person desires a personal flunky that can be controlled by them one hundred percent, it makes sense to stick with the original AC plan.

There's no chance of them suddenly turning against you one day, and deciding to sleep with your significant other, or reading your diary while you're at work.. !!
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#20552 - 02/17/09 12:29 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morbid Rex]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
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 Originally Posted By: Morbid Rex
The human animal has proven itself to be one of the highest embodiments of life on this planet, creating actual living human clones which serve no purpose other then to be our lowly slaves seems to me to be a nauseating perversion of natural freedom, which is essentially what Satanism is about.


This amuses me... It would seem to me that the Satanist must challenge all notions of "sanctity", even those that seem obvious.

First of all, humans are not the "highest embodiment of life". We are animals, just like all the other species on this planet. Just because we have the capability to blow each other up doesn't mean we're special. Besides, automatically being human does not entitle you to any kind of respect- you have to earn it.

Would it be a perversion to use stem cells to grow organs for our own purposes? Of course not. So why would it be a perversion to grow a bunch of organs connected to each other, ie, a human body, for our own purposes? Humans are nothing more than a system of organic machinery. Yes, it may be "wrong" to restrict the will or freedom of a fellow human, but if the "programmed clone" in question is born with no true consciousness or free will in the first place, then how can it be usurping freedom?

Indeed, the next step up in humanoid-robot technology is the substitution of actual living tissue rather than lifeless metal and electronics. Coupled with genetic programming, it is only a matter of time before science is capable of growing a human with whatever mental capacity would be needed. You want a free-willed artistically-inclined female with a genius IQ and dark hair? Done. You want a subservient, well-"endowed" male with no free will or consciousness to serve as your personal sex toy? Hey, nothing's impossible.

All this crazy science-fiction theorizing aside, these kinds of bio-organic robotics are ages away from development, and even more so from public acceptance. They also present all sorts of problems, such as the need to feed, clothe, and bathe another human. And don't even get me started about the moral outcry that would certainly delay its practical debut for a good century or so. Who has the time for that?

For the current moment, mechanical androids will do perfectly for the need for "artificial human companions". I'm betting they'll have good models on the market within the century,


Edited by The Zebu (02/17/09 12:31 AM)
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#20553 - 02/17/09 12:33 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: The Zebu]
Morgan Offline
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A clone would think, and thus possibley decide to kill you and take over your life.

Takes go fuck yourself to a different level.

A robot, you could just shut off and put in a closet.

A living doll, with the "right part" you want is available now, if you have enough money.

I think its all just a matter of time and money as to what gets made to satify various peoples sexual desires.

Besides, if you have enough money you can go to south america and get almost anything you want.

Morgan



Edited by Morgan (02/17/09 12:36 AM)
Edit Reason: submitted too early
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#20554 - 02/17/09 12:39 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: The Zebu]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
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Good point Zebu, I was about to say something similar...

I for certain, would love to have a freezer full of cloned hearts, kidneys, livers, and lungs... for replacement as needed... this is not a bad vision of the future in my eyes... one that is quite possible in the next decade or so, possibly now. Scientifically possible. (this goes back to the "living to be 1,000 video Dan_Dread posted)

But a "full human clone"? Clones are people too! You would have to genetically program them to be "docile" or whatever... not to mention the societal/moral/legal calamity that would ensue...

If this is okey-dokey, might as well start genetically altering existing embryos or fetuses for our gain.

Wait... we already do.
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#20555 - 02/17/09 12:44 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morgan]
daevid777 Offline
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This was an old topic a while back... it was suggested we get the creepy Japanese scientists (that always make attractive female robots)... and put that "brain" into a "RealDoll"...

I'd be fine with that... it would be a hard thing to put in your closet though, I've heard those things are heavy.
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#20562 - 02/17/09 01:08 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I can't think of any reason that I would need an AC, I have enough interactions with real ones. I suppose it might be cool to have one as a slave to do my bidding, but I am not lazy and I can do things for myself.

As far as anything sexual is concerned; nothing could be as satisfying as real sex with a real living human. I just don't think I could bring myself to fuck a robot. Hell, even blow up dolls seem pointless to me.

Clones - wow, what an interesting prospect - One could come in handy should I ever desire to fake my own death. On the subject of my own personal organ farm, I would prefer that what ever I needed be grown individually rather than as a "package deal". On a side note: Would killing of ones clown constitute homicide, suicide, or clonicide?

Taxation of all churches? Hell yeah! In fact, I don't even understand why they aren't already taxed. Many churches pull in copius amounts of money. There is a church in my town that is worth a million dollars. Just the building, not including the land it is on. The church was built from money that the church recieved from church fundraisers and collection plates etc.

Now that I think about it, I should be on the side of the churches being tax free. I could get in on that cash cow, these people are obviously eager to buy their way into heaven. So why not exploit that weakness? I could even use their own tenets against them; something about a camel and the eye of a needle...
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#20572 - 02/17/09 01:56 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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hmm, your clone as an organ farm...
Well, you take out half the brain, and put it into a comafarm building. Thus, it grows but never lives.
You are still gonna need a lotta cash to pay for that.
Fuck, nursing home/coma care monies for your parts is gonna be really expensive.


Those dolls are heavy, but put some roller skates on the bitches feet and they will move real nice.
Hell, I just might put some stripper clothes on the bitch and leave her on my couch.

Morgan
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#20573 - 02/17/09 02:04 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morgan]
daevid777 Offline
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I guess I'm an "idealist" after all...

But I didn't mean an entire human clone, just cloned organs...

Yeah, you'd have to be rich - well, that could solve some of those eugenics/immigration ideas floating around out there... the poor live to 80, the rich live to 800...

It wouldn't matter if they were initially smart either... you'd gotta know a thing or two by say, at least 250 years old...

Maybe I could transform one of the rooms upstairs... but my couch? She'd be covered in marker and chapstick... and god knows what else could happen - not for my kids!

I like the roller-skates idea...
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#20590 - 02/17/09 05:52 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morbid Rex]
Zoid Offline
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Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morbid Rex
I'm personally against developing any type of Android that can develop mental capacities beyond it's fundamental task/tasks. An Android that cooks breakfast or plays the piano on command is find and dandy to me, but developing machines that can reason would be crossing uncertain waters.


What about an android, with appropriately designed anatomy, which can engage in sexuality? I always assumed sexuality was part of LaVey's original vision, and to me that implies the ability to interact with humans at an extremely high degree of complexity.


 Originally Posted By: Morbid Rex

Also I'd be against developing Human clones programmed for rudimentary tasks. The human animal has proven itself to be one of the highest embodiments of life on this planet, creating actual living human clones which serve no purpose other then to be our lowly slaves seems to me to be a nauseating perversion of natural freedom, which is essentially what Satanism is about.


My thinking on this is irrevocably influenced by C. J. Cherryh's sci-fi novel, Cyteen, which depicts and explores the ramifications of clones who are programmed from birth, and not merely to perform rudimentary tasks, but to devotedly serve the master in highly sophisticated ways, such as, for example, bodyguard. Anyone at all interested in the topic under discussion would do well to read said novel.

Here again, since I've been assuming sexuality was part of the package, I have never been limiting the proposal to rudimentary tasks. Devotion would be absolute but the services rendered would be utterly open-ended. Also, the likeliest scenario would be to program the clone to get complete fulfillment, satisfaction, self-esteem, and self-actualization from the services rendered. In all likelihood, the clone would be happier than the master!

Does any of that alter your perspective?

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#20650 - 02/17/09 08:45 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
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Who gives a shit about any of that.

It is a TOOL. Created to perform a task.
Thats it.

I want my tools to work, not think.

Morgan

Sometimes, the simple way is the best way.
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#20658 - 02/17/09 09:22 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morgan]
Zoid Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Who gives a shit about any of that.

It is a TOOL. Created to perform a task.
Thats it.

I want my tools to work, not think.


Sexuality, at least as I have experienced it, requires a great deal of complexity, responsiveness, subtlety, sophistication. Do you agree the original concept included sexuality as something the artificial human would engage in?

Certainly if the pseudo-female artificial human is merely expected to lie on its back and spread its legs - and the pseudo-male artificial human is merely expected to insert its penis and perform some pelvic thrusts - then I will agree, there's no need for complexity, subtlety, responsiveness, sophistication.

But I can't believe LaVey would have any interest in such a dull ambition.

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#20672 - 02/18/09 12:17 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
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If I wanted reflective sexuality, I would fuck a man.
If I just want to get my rocks off, I would use a "tool".
Everything serves its purpose.

I prefer playing chess with a human, last time I played a machine, I beat it.
There is an underlying trait of chaos within a human that a "tool" can not duplicate.
That chaos gives forth personality, passion, and love.

I do not think you can program a tool to give/respond to love.

As simple as it sounds, I want my "clone/organ donor/robot/fuck toy" to be simple. No brain, no confusion, just a tool made to serve its purpose.

Its not a dull ambition, its actually quite hard to do as shown by your negative response to the matter.

Morgan
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#20693 - 02/18/09 05:48 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morgan]
Zoid Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
If I wanted reflective sexuality, I would fuck a man.
If I just want to get my rocks off, I would use a "tool".
Everything serves its purpose.


OK. I can certainly imagine some potentially entertaining attributes to be built into the pseudo-male. The penis could vibrate. The penis could also have a servomechanism that calibrates the size and shape of the penis to the woman's internal anatomy, and calibrates the angle of the penis to maximize stimulation of the clitoris. The penis could even increase or decrease its temperature in response to vocal commands from the human.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

There is an underlying trait of chaos within a human that a "tool" can not duplicate.
That chaos gives forth personality, passion, and love.

I do not think you can program a tool to give/respond to love.


Perhaps not. But I hope the science of artificial intelligence continues to advance until the skills of an expert prostitute can be programmed into a machine.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

As simple as it sounds, I want my "clone/organ donor/robot/fuck toy" to be simple. No brain, no confusion, just a tool made to serve its purpose.

Its not a dull ambition, its actually quite hard to do as shown by your negative response to the matter.


Fair enough. Certainly what bores me could be for someone else a source of excitement. Fucking or getting fucked by an artificual human might qualify as a fetish, in fact.

I have just always thought LaVey had something more diabolical in mind... something that would revolutionize society. We already have vibrators. Attaching one to a simulated male body requires engineering skill, to be sure, and might spark controversy among the idiots who fear Harry Potter, but society as a whole wouldn't shift much, I don't think.

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#20775 - 02/19/09 05:16 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
spiderbreeder Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 300
Loc: Sydney,Australia
A vibrating penis, with a servomechanism that calibrates the size and shape of itself to my internal anatomy..... and I can tell it to get hotter too?

It will be a glorious day indeed, when something of that calibre hits the market...


I may never leave the house again. ;\)
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#20793 - 02/19/09 12:56 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: spiderbreeder]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
They already have something on the market like that. It's called they Sybian. I couldn't find a site for the other machine that wasn't a porn site. There is another machine that you can control the speed, size, penetration, etc all from a remote control. Have a look at the Sybian.

Sybian
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#20845 - 02/20/09 05:21 AM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: fakepropht]
spiderbreeder Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 300
Loc: Sydney,Australia
Well, blow me down with a feather and call me Martha...

Thanks for posting that link Fake, it's ripped my carnal horizon wide open... Ahhh, the possibilities are endless!

I must confess, I've never really ventured into vibrators, but I've gotta tell you, the Sybian looks like a wonderful introduction to the whole scene.
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#20909 - 02/20/09 10:02 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Zoid]
Morbid Rex Offline
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Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
 Originally Posted By: Zoid
My thinking on this is irrevocably influenced by C. J. Cherryh's sci-fi novel, Cyteen, which depicts and explores the ramifications of clones who are programmed from birth, and not merely to perform rudimentary tasks, but to devotedly serve the master in highly sophisticated ways, such as, for example, bodyguard. Anyone at all interested in the topic under discussion would do well to read said novel.

Here again, since I've been assuming sexuality was part of the package, I have never been limiting the proposal to rudimentary tasks. Devotion would be absolute but the services rendered would be utterly open-ended. Also, the likeliest scenario would be to program the clone to get complete fulfillment, satisfaction, self-esteem, and self-actualization from the services rendered. In all likelihood, the clone would be happier than the master!

Does any of that alter your perspective?


Ahhhh this does make your view much more understandable to me. Still I see the cloning of human beings as a very complex issue which must be studied from various angles. For example would a clone be looked at as being just as valuable and productive as a naturally born human being in our society or would it just be viewed as a disposable utensil that can easily be replaced? There's no question that even creating human clones who get a sense of fulfillment out of their assigned tasks would cause quite the moral conundrum amongst people.
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#20911 - 02/20/09 10:38 PM Re: Pentagonal Revisionism [Re: Morbid Rex]
Ringmaster Offline
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Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
I would say it would be. It is geneticaly the same as a born human. It can still think with logic and reason, it can still work like one.

Why would it be an issue? I think it could do great things for soviety if done right. If being looked at as an expendable asset it would prove most productive. It is easier to dispose of something as long as you have no emotional attatchment to it atleast from what I have found.
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