Page 2 of 3 <123>
Topic Options
#20666 - 02/17/09 10:35 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Simply put, if people who identify themselves as LaVeyan Satanists wish to follow the dictate, DO NOT HARM CHILDREN... it's their right to do so. And it's a no brainer that there are children around the world that could be harmed because we use product X... Union Carbide's fiasco in Bhopal, India killed children and women and men and animals. But in this, you're looking at a "we are the world scenario." Satanism isn't a religion that looks at "the world," or has a "we are the world" mindset. It focuses on the individual and what the individual chooses to do in HIS OR HER LIFE ONLY. If that coincides with a group of other individuals, perhaps a group calling themselves LaVeyan Satanists, does that say that it's some kind of universal rule? No. It says that it's a concept that has been embraced by individuals who ascribe to a philosophy in which that precept is a part.

What's ridiculous, and frankly intellectually dishonest, is when every fucking post becomes an exercise in nit picking and parsing language... agenda driven, for the most part... by people who have the capability to do better. There are people who don't like LaVey. Ok. There are people who don't like the LaVeyan Statements or Rules. OK. You don't have to, and nobody... NOBODY says you have to. By the same token, those who find that those guidances meet their needs have the same right to follow them as they see fit.

No. I wouldn't harm a child. I know that children are harmed by many things that humanity does. I can't help that. I simply wouldn't willingly harm a child. No. I wouldn't kill a non-human animal unless attacked or for food. I know that non-human animals are killed all the time . I can't help that. I simply wouldn't kill a non human animal unless attacked for food. Big deal. If that offends you, then thank you for playing and fuck you very much... you're just a little to invested in my life.

People don't get it that as Satanism ISN'T a world-hugging-kumbaya type or religion/philosophy. All of this, "well, it happens every day, all over the world" rhetoric means nothing in our acceptance of what Satanism is. And we don't care what Satanism is to YOU. It's not our job to meet up to your expectations or to try to argue why we're right and you're wrong. We're right for US. You're right for YOU.

LaVey wrote a piece in The Cloven Hoof in the late 70's that shows our attitude for the most part.

"There are some men who are islands, entire of themselves, but most are pieces of the continent -- part of the maine. If a clod -- and clods they be -- is washed away by the sea, the mainland is richer, albeit smaller. If a promontory were washed away, then some small alarm might be caused if one's manor builded from unique efforts stood upon it. But no man's death, save he who stands by me, diminishes me. Other men's deaths make the earth a sweeter, finer place for those who have the capacity to relish each moment spent upon it. Each useless drone's death enriches me. I am involved in growth, and the incompetent dead can at best provide fertilizer. Then, though the land be lesser in size, it will be richer in soil and lusher in visage. Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls because someone is being paid to pull the rope."
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#20687 - 02/18/09 03:54 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This isn't even about nitpicking. It's about a fundamental weakness incorporated into a philosophy claiming to oppose them. What is intellectually dishonest about it, is that all those grand defenders of the rules at the same time also seem to be defenders of eliminating just that what some rules are about. Think welfare, think eugenics, think...
If you insert something kumbaya, you end up being kumbaya.

If Satanism is about transcending the current, weakness should be eliminated, not embraced. Choice will always remain.

D.

Top
#20692 - 02/18/09 05:21 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
This isn't even about nitpicking. It's about a fundamental weakness incorporated into a philosophy claiming to oppose them. What is intellectually dishonest about it, is that all those grand defenders of the rules at the same time also seem to be defenders of eliminating just that what some rules are about. Think welfare, think eugenics, think...
If you insert something kumbaya, you end up being kumbaya.


One of the early Revolutionary War flags depicted a snake with the words, "Don't tread on me." That is precisely - I say again, precisely - the spirit of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth.

Tell me, please, if you see a meaningful difference between the following two statements.

1. Point that gun at me and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

2. Point that gun at X and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

Replace X with any of the following and tell me, please, if a meaningful difference emerges between the options.

1. - my car

2. - that Rembrandt painting on the museum wall

3. - that five year old girl I've never met

4. - that nearly extinct marsupial

I don't see any meaningful difference at any point in this exercise. All the options boil down to, "Pull that trigger and I'ma fuck you up," to speak in rap for a moment.

In a might is right world, rules will be imposed. How do I know? Because we already live in a might is right world and always have - no other kind of world has ever existed - and rules are imposed here. Among wolves, the alpha male eats first. That's a rule. Among walruses, the male who defeats his rivals will mate, the male who doesn't, won't. That's a rule.

Among humans, the toughest guy in the room (or the guy with the most allies in proximity) gets to include under his protection anything he likes. That's a rule.

Top
#20694 - 02/18/09 05:59 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Might is right is a mechanism in nature. It's not a rule at all. Predator, prey, victim, aggressor are all subject to this mechanism. There is no fixed rule for any of these to follow or behave accordingly. In nature, animals react as instructed, we do have choice, illusionary or not. What we do, or rather should do, is not reject this mechanism. When we fulfill a certain need and behave according this natural mechanism, we don't need to feel bad about it. We can not sin, so it is plain silly for us to invent sins, no matter how subtle hidden . We don't need to suffer from slave morality as indoctrinated into us by society or religion. We define our own morality, when something applies and when not and when it is the right time to behave in a certain manner. If someone else sets up moral principles, we do not need to follow them.

The concerns of the many are not the concerns of us. The only thing we have to be concerned about is us and, if that is appropriate is someone's case, their extended tribe. The moment this extended tribe starts to include unknowns, one is more than a foot into a kumbaya philosophy.

There are rules out there and there are laws and they are imposed but it does not imply anyone has to conform. In reality they do NOT exist. It only implies there is a price tag to everything. If the price is right, all is allowed.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (02/18/09 06:12 AM)
Edit Reason: changed wording

Top
#20709 - 02/18/09 09:50 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.

Top
#20722 - 02/18/09 11:54 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: joseph oreilly]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Tell me, please, if you see a meaningful difference between the following two statements.

1. Point that gun at me and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.
2. Point that gun at X and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

Replace X with any of the following and tell me, please, if a meaningful difference emerges between the options.

1. - my car
2. - that Rembrandt painting on the museum wall
3. - that five year old girl I've never met
4. - that nearly extinct marsupial

I don't see any meaningful difference at any point in this exercise. All the options boil down to, "Pull that trigger and I'ma fuck you up," to speak in rap for a moment.


I see a difference. In every possible way you'll get what you deserve.
- If you shoot my car, I'd hurt you quite badly.
- The Rembrandt will most likely get you arrested for destroying cultural history of great value, in which you shall pay several millions dollars and let you go broke.
- The five year old might give you death sentence and possibly lynched in certain countries...
- The marsupial will make famous, but hated by many people. A blame you have to cope with...

If you knew your Satanic philosophy you should have known you must carry the fruits of the seeds you have planted.
To make things short: there is a difference after the action has taken place. Don't start crawling back with "Yeah but in prehistoric times...." fuck-it, did we have cars in the prehistory?

@ Joseph O'reilly
 Quote:
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.

Read your biology and learn to think.
Animals only seem to have one purpose to us, but destroy one specie and the whole nature will be in imbalance and will have negative effects on us.
Fucking idiot....
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#20730 - 02/18/09 12:35 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: joseph oreilly]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: joseph oreilly
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.


Oh shit, not you again.

Do you mind explaining why you think LaVey was "just bored and lazy"? While we are the subject of explaining things; how do you know what a tiger, parrot, panda or whale tastes like? I smell a load of bullshit.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#20731 - 02/18/09 12:40 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If you start feeding trolls soon we will have a whole nest of trolls, and will have to call an exterminator.

Are you going to pay for that!?
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#20733 - 02/18/09 12:47 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I haven't even begun to feed....

I am curious as to how Joseph here plans to substantiate any of his claims. I would think that you, Dan, of all people would be quick to want to cut through this bullshit. What better way than to give him the rope and let him tie his own noose?

Pay for the troll exterminator? Hell, i'll do you one better; I will be the exterminator. I have a shit load of Black-Flag (the bug spray, not the band) in my garage.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#20734 - 02/18/09 01:07 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I no longer even acknowledge the existence of complete morons in this place, as it is a luxury afforded here. Anywhere else, I at the very least have to go out of my way to walk around them.

In other words, I only bother with bullshit that at least has the cursory appearance of coherence. It is obvious this joseph guy isn't capable of offering any sort of real resistance. Like kicking a dog after all it's legs have been amputated.

Hardly sporting.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#20735 - 02/18/09 01:19 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Touche good sir; point well taken.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#20777 - 02/19/09 06:16 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Might is right is a mechanism in nature.


It isn't even that. It's merely a philosophical statement that expresses the obvious ramification of another philosophical statement, namely, "The universe doesn't have a moral dimension."

There's a song lyric I can remember, despite my inability to remember the title or any other lyrics from the song: "I got the gun, so I get the pesos - yeah, that seems fair."

In a universe with no moral dimension, the most dangerous entity in the room makes the rules for that room, and if the other denizens complain about moral codes being violated, every word they say can be rejected a priori as gibberish.

The real choices the denizens have are as follows:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Break the rules and prepare for defensive combat alone or with allies.

3. Attack, alone or with allies, the dangerous entity who made the rules.

This is true choice. The dangerous entity hasn't removed the power of choice from the denizens. The dangerous entity has merely narrowed the range of choices for the denizens to basically three.

And by the way, the dangerous entity doesn't by any means have to be human. A bobcat might set the rule, "Don't come within three feet of me."


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

What we do, or rather should do, is not reject this mechanism. When we fulfill a certain need and behave according this natural mechanism, we don't need to feel bad about it.


I agree with all of that. I could quibble semantics but I won't.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

We can not sin, so it is plain silly for us to invent sins, no matter how subtle hidden.


The Nine Satanic Sins are so-named because the name catches our attention. We actually commit the first sin (stupidity) if we treat the name of the list as if it yielded anything more than two specific warnings:

1. "These things are despised by Anton LaVey and anyone who thinks like him."

2. "These things would be prudent to avoid, since, in each case, there is a penalty that will probably be extracted by the universe, because the universe is, and always has been, a foolkiller."

The universe is a foolkiller. That is natural law. It is implicit in the premise of that pithy institution, "The Darwin Awards."


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

We don't need to suffer from slave morality as indoctrinated into us by society or religion. We define our own morality, when something applies and when not and when it is the right time to behave in a certain manner. If someone else sets up moral principles, we do not need to follow them.


Right timeliness! One of my favorite concepts. \:\)

I agree with all of the above quote. I could quibble semantics but I won't.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

The concerns of the many are not the concerns of us.


I agree - unless the many have me surrounded and are pointing guns at me.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

The only thing we have to be concerned about is us and, if that is appropriate is someone's case, their extended tribe. The moment this extended tribe starts to include unknowns, one is more than a foot into a kumbaya philosophy.


I disagree because I think by "unknowns" you mean, for example, strangers, children we haven't met, rhinoceri we haven't met... and I see no reason to deny myself the opportunity to extend the boundaries of my self in any direction I choose.

This is an important philosophical point. Call it, "the psychic amoeba principle." I can extend the boundaries of my ego to engulf anything I choose to identify with. This makes me larger. It is an emotional investment I deliberately make, the same way I invest financially in the stock market. The dividends are strictly emotional, of course, and this is another reason why I have previously drawn attention to Satanic Heart. If we don't understand the fulfillment and self-actualization that arise directly from the heart, from the emotions, then we won't understand the dividends of emotional investment, and thus we won't understand the practicality of what I'm calling, fancifully, "the psychic amoeba principle."

If I choose to live fiercely by engaging myself directly or indirectly in the well-being of the rhinoceri, this simply means I have enlarged my ego adroitly and successfully, such that I now have a path toward fierce living that I didn't have before. Virtues of the Satanic Heart that will manifest and propel me to actualization would be, especially, fondness, jealousy, justice, terribleness, hate, and relentlessness. Six out of thirteen is pretty good! My life will be enriched.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

There are rules out there and there are laws and they are imposed but it does not imply anyone has to conform. In reality they do NOT exist. It only implies there is a price tag to everything. If the price is right, all is allowed.


I agree - with one semantic quibble I can't walk away from. Rules don't exist in objective reality, this is true, but they exist in subjective reality, and if broken, the consequences in both objective and subjective reality can be severe. More succinctly: might is right.

Top
#20781 - 02/19/09 09:25 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
So after everything you wrote out, you simply agreed with him.

It seems that "stuff" that comes naturally and flows to most "Satanists", you have a problem internalizing. It seems that you at times go and use all this flowery language in an attempt to almost convince yourself of what it all means.

Are you sure, of who you are, what you feel inside, and what really resonates with your own internal core of being?

Its okay if this isn't for you, and just an exercise in learning about others and yourself.

At least that is how you come across to me at this point.

Enjoy your quest,

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#20785 - 02/19/09 11:17 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
"Everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people
So meet me at the mission at midnight - we'll divvy up there.
Everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people
Well, I got the pistols, so I get the pesos
Yeah, that seems fair."

-The Refreshments, "Banditos"

Just thought I would help you out by finishing the rest of that song lyric.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#20799 - 02/19/09 01:45 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm only going to continue upon some stuff we differ upon.

You claim "Might is Right" not a mechanism but merely a philosophical statement and present an argument for that. I like to point out that your argument is actually affirming my position. In an amoral universe, the most dangerous entity setting the rules for the room shows that the mechanism is at work beyond the control of the entity, beyond morals and beyond philosophy. It's a mechanism beyond the world of subjectivity although morals define how we interpret it.

About unknowns. To me the most important qualifier for something is purpose. What is its purpose to me? If it has none, it is of no importance. And believe it or not; this is how all humans affairs work. The difference being that some use internal qualifiers while others are subject to external ones and confuse those valuations with their own. Morals are some of those external valuations people embrace. You can extend the boundaries of your ego as far as you like and so do I, but my boundaries stop when purpose reaches zero. I like nature and I enjoy watching animals from time to time but even when, none of them has such a value that I feel inclined to propose an external value system or, easier said, being moral about it. And even if, my morality is a pure selfish concern and I expect only the weak to embrace them without evaluation. That being said, I do recognize the duality of it and how one thing can be a master-morality and, at the same time, also be slave morality. The difference merely being in who values it as what.

D.

Top
Page 2 of 3 <123>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.033 seconds of which 0.007 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.