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#20598 - 02/17/09 07:06 AM Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
Zoid Offline
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We didn't have a thread on the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, so now we do. Any discussion of any of the Eleven Rules would be on topic here.

My interest this morning is in the tenth, "Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food."

I concur with this whole-heartedly, as I am quite fond of non-human animals. I eat them, as I see no reason not to, since animals eating one another is as old as the amoeba. I certainly would kill anything that intended to do me harm.

But I would add this to the tenth rule: " - and don't eat any species that is endangered unless you will starve otherwise."

In my view, someone who violates the above is guilty of the ninth Satanic sin, lack of aesthetics, as anyone who can't appreciate the beauty of a species of animal is a philistine of the basest and most boorish variety.

As for those who violate the original wording of the tenth rule, such as those who fish for sharks so they can cut off the fins and sell them as health remedies or virility enhancers, or who hunt rhinoceri so they can cut off the horns for similar purposes, I accuse them. They stand accused by me of breaking the tenth rule and committing the ninth sin, and though they neither know nor care, my wrath is upon them, my financial strength is arrayed against them, and perhaps I will go further than this, as I continue to ponder subtle and sophisticated manifestations of the second degree antisocial, and opposition to the social more by which the accusation of murder is only applied to the slayers of humans.


Edited by Zoid (02/17/09 07:30 AM)
Edit Reason: Zoid corrected the sense of the final sentence by adding the word "committing" before the words, "the ninth sin."

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#20600 - 02/17/09 07:46 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
XauriEL Offline
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Registered: 02/16/09
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Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
I'm curious as to how people view animal testing in scientific/medical experiments, vis. the tenth rule.
My personal intuition is that human testing is more reasonable, as it would reveal more about the human reaction than even chimps do. This would be a good use for various worthless parasites.
Thoughts?
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#20601 - 02/17/09 07:48 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
spiderbreeder Offline
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Posts: 300
Loc: Sydney,Australia
I totally agree that the people killing animals for anything other than food is a violation of the tenth rule indeed.

All these shark fin plunderers, whale/dolphin murderers, and tiger penis thieves etc are definitely violators of the ninth sin.

Not only are they totally disregarding the aesthetic qualities of the species they are killing, they are also totally disrupting the planet's natural balance factor- they're not only pushing certain species into extinction, they are in effect doing the same to the entire planet by stuffing up the eco-system.

If I am starving, and stuck out in the middle of nowhere, and my only chance of survival was to kill so I could eat, I would do it.

If anyone or anything invaded my space with harmful motive, I would kill them without hesitation, and go down the "acting in self defence" road...

On a darker note , the situation above is probably the only time( other than serving in the Army etc) that you could literally murder a repugnant human being and get off, scott free.
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#20602 - 02/17/09 08:02 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm not a big Laveyan, not saying I don't see value in certain things he wrote but a part of what was inserted in the SB is what I consider societal houseniggery.

If one considers morals to be solely subjective, one can't suddenly start preaching objective ones. Those rules about harming children and killing non-human animals are just embarrassing when you look at the whole picture. Of course they had to be added to create a schism with traditional Satanism as described in lore and fixated into religious minds but again, it is social houseniggery nonetheless. Maybe required in the day but nowadays something I find utterly unnecessary. Of course I look at Satanism or the LHP from an individual perspective and see no need to put my shoulders or energy under the movement as a whole. To a degree because the movement as a whole, in its most common shape, implies compromise which, as usual, is always at the expense of the Self.

So what is so wrong with killing or eating endangered species? Actually nothing. Species die off all the time and have done so since the start of life. Whether the reason is climate change, destructive mutation, bad luck or humans; it does not matter. We are a part of nature and we can't prosper without it being at the expense of other organisms or species. Is it wrong to eat an endangered species? No, absolutely not. That is as wrong as only eating steak and letting all the other meat go to waste. We do that a lot and see no harm in butchering an animal for those unique parts we prefer. And no, the rest isn't all consumed by others out there.
There is no value difference between a cow and a shark. Availability does not make something more valuable, we humans tend to grant value to things less common but it's an artificial marker. A lion will eat the last antelope without thinking twice.

So I can't subscribe to those moral imperatives passed on to us by the SB. If someone wants to kill animals for pleasure, lust or use in ritual, that's their decision and whether I like that or not can't have any effect on it being an objective moral or not.

D.

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#20606 - 02/17/09 09:52 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
XauriEL Offline
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Registered: 02/16/09
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Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
I don't just follow the Satanic Rules of the Earth I was 'told to'. They are guidelines to help live a long, happy, self-fulfilled life. They really have to be seen in conjunction with the rest of the philosophy, particularly the Satanic Sins.

My own perspective is that the majority of the philosophy is an outgrowth of the Satanic Sins, particularly of the primary sin, Stupidity (which the other sins are implicit in). Like it or not, the world has no qualms about killing you or destroying you emotionally. Self-discipline is not about doing what's 'right' by society's definition. It's about weighing risks against rewards, effort against effect. I see the Rules of the Earth not as hard-fast 'universal laws' but as guidelines to common situations where the potential risk outweighs the possible rewards, or vice versa; situations where the potential effect is not worth the required effort.

Taker the ninth rule 'do not harm little children'. Every time you hurt or kill someone you make enemies of them (if they survive) and everyone who cares about them. Harming someone if it's not necessary to do so, if they're not harming or threatening you, is a stupid move. Children are in the vast majority of cases not capable of threatening an adult; sure, there are situations where you have to take the kid out to save your own life, but in the general scheme of things, harming children is simply unnecessary. Therefore whatever you think you might get out of harming them, there can't be that many situations where it's not outweighed by the fact that now you've got 10-100 times as many people gunning for you. Even if they're an orphan with no family, odds are *someone* out there is going to care enough through pure sympathy to come after you and take you out. That being said, go ahead and kill as many children as you think you need to. Just don't be surprised, or expect sympathy from me, when you suffer the consequences of your stupidity.
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#20609 - 02/17/09 10:03 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
Diavolo Offline
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Guidelines huh? That's probably why people talk about breaking them or sinning against them. You call them guidelines, I call them moral rules. Seeing how people respond to criticism upon them, I think I'm closer to the truth.

D.

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#20621 - 02/17/09 03:46 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I have always seen the statements/rules/sins not as rules or guidelines, but as identifying traits. Rather than a rulebook to be adapted to, these writings are to either be agreed with or not. If you see your own behavior set and morality embodied in what is written, without having to change or adapt, you just might be a Satanist.

The type of person that does not find these rules objectionable or constraining, but rather as normalcy and plain common sense, may even be that rare human phenotype that has been labeled as 'Satanist'.

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#20624 - 02/17/09 04:17 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Your identifying traits are moral rules Dan. It's not because one names it differently that the content changes. Guidelines can't be broken. Identifying traits, rules and laws require conformity. Satanism by nature can't be of a conformist nature and it cannot wield with moral premises. So it is plain silly to uphold them as a must follow or suffer punishment in whatever shape.

Laveyan Satanism as created in the day is a moral philosophy. It doesn't matter if rebellion or non-conformity is upheld, the very nature of certain aspect of it are conformist and moral to the core. It's of course not in your face like other religions but nonetheless it is there. The sins or rules are prime examples of it, whether they make sense or not.

In my opinion everything in life is situational. Therefore it is rather silly to create limitations one isn't sure one can uphold. I don't believe in that shit. Don't harm children and the non-human animals stuff is plain silly. We sin against them all the time, if it isn't direct, it is indirect. I've set out my arguments about one of the rules before so I am not going to repeat them here. I assume if people think about it, they might realize that such rules are only there for the feel-good and that they have no intrinsic value at all. But of course, such feel-good rules, who's going to object against them at all? No sane human one might assume. Well, everyone that thinks a bit longer about them and can get past the obviousness of them might see it differently. Still, like nice little memes they are repeated all the time without anyone every wondering the actual value or content. And if someone does, instead of thinking about the criticism, all I see is a defense of the rules. It's weird, you know, us being free-thinkers and such.

D.

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#20627 - 02/17/09 05:01 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

Identifying traits, rules and laws require conformity

Is it really conformity to fall in line with your own natural behaviors and beliefs? I would call it self-honesty myself.

Personally if I found the tenets and descriptions of what constitutes a Satanist limiting or out of character, I would probably find a new, more accurate label for what I am and how I believe. Or maybe just use none at all.
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#20631 - 02/17/09 05:18 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
XauriEL Offline
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So the rule is, 'you're not allowed to follow any rules'?

I choose which 'rules' I will follow, and when to bend or break them, depending on my needs and desires. I find the LaVeyan Rules of the Earth to be a valuable touchstone as far as what kind of behaviour will rationally maximize my happiness and fulfillment in life without unduly impinging my personal freedom and bringing the least reasonable amount of blowback on me from the society and the reality we live in. I can certainly imagine situations in which I would break any or every one of the Rules, for instance if I was beset by child soldiers who were intent on murdering me I would more than likely have to hurt or even kill them to keep myself alive. That doesn't alter the fact that killing children, for the most part and in the vast majority of circumstances, is a really stupid thing to do. Stealing is a stupid thing to do. Forcing sex on someone who doesn't want it is stupid. Trying to give your advice to people who won't listen is stupid and a waste of time. Killing endangered animals without reason upsets the balance of the ecology in ways that end up coming back against you, therefore it is bloody stupid.

Nonconformity for the sake of nonconformity is nothing but foolish relativism. No, I am not required by my avocation of Satanism to withold my judgment of the stupid actions of others. In fact quite the opposite, my judgment is the only one that matters within my existence. Everyone follows rules, if you really think you don't you come off as somewhat deluded. You follow the rule of not jumping off 100 story buildings. Guidelines can and should be broken when necessary; they are not commandments. But in the vast majority situations you will encounter in your everyday life, following them is a good way to stay alive, stay focused, and get the advantage over people who follow stupid rules or don't think they're subject to the dictates of reality.
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#20633 - 02/17/09 06:08 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm going to be nice in my reply. You're from Saskawatcha-land or something and maybe you do have other manners of reading and interpreting things.

You wield the word stupid a lot, which is humorous because a lot of what you are ranting about here got very little to do with what I wrote. What I said is that those rules are moral rules and because morals are subjective, people should decide for themselves if they follow them or not. Your previous rant about killing children and such was all nice and swell but as an argument against my comment about the morality of a rule, a bit stupid. Next you mention how you choose to follow or bend every rule as you see fit, suddenly agreeing with my argument from before but now accusing me of saying that I claim none should follow any rule at all. Again, and I'm going to spell it: S U B J E C T I V I T Y D O E S N O T I M P L Y T H O U S H A L T. It implies you can. Obama was right; yes we can.

D.

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#20651 - 02/17/09 08:45 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Please forgive all the multi-quoting, there was a lot said here, some more intelligently than others – in my opinion – that I would like to comment on.

 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
I'm curious as to how people view animal testing in scientific/medical experiments, vis. the tenth rule. My personal intuition is that human testing is more reasonable, as it would reveal more about the human reaction than even chimps do. This would be a good use for various worthless parasites. Thoughts?


Personally I am against animal testing, even if only due to my own “morality”. Human testing is often done, and you can even get paid for it! Sometimes, though, there can be unpleasant side effects. Your suggestion that it (product testing), “ would be a good use for various worthless parasites.” The problem with that being; who decides what qualities define a worthless parasite? I could make the argument that a rat is a worthless parasite. That aside – what makes you think you could force this upon anyone? Wouldn’t that be just as “wrong” as forcing an animal to undergo the very same testing?

Instances of non-human animal testing have been quelled over the years, however; the testing will continue unless it is made illegal, or it becomes no longer economically viable. Good luck getting that legislation passed. I am sure the major of the companies that do test on non-human animals, especially pharmaceutical companies, keep the palms of government officials well greased to insure that any such legislation is snuffed out before it could even get off the ground. Unless P.E.T.A organizes a hostile take-over of the government.

 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
I don't just follow the Satanic Rules of the Earth I was 'told to'. They are guidelines to help live a long, happy, self-fulfilled life.


Are you implying that without these “guidelines” one wouldn’t be able to “live a long, happy, self-fulfilled life”? I am positive that are millions of people out there who are quite happy of your life that have never even seen a Satanic Bible, let alone need it in order to enjoy their lives.

Xians say the very same thing about their bible, as I am sure members of other religions do as well. They aren’t anymore correct in saying that than you were, and for the exact same reasons.

 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
So the rule is, 'you're not allowed to follow any rules'?


No. The rule is: do what works for you. Whether it be following all the rules, some of the rules, or none of the rules. Just be aware that there are consequences for our actions. Be the consequences good or bad we will be subject to them should we so choose to undertake whatever action bares said consequences.

 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
killing children, for the most part and in the vast majority of circumstances, is a really stupid thing to do.


That should say killing anyone, for the most part and in the vast majority of circumstances, is a really stupid thing to do. You also go on to mention that stealing from, and forcing sex on other people is stupid; yet you don’t specify children.(e.g. stealing from children/forcing sex on children)

I just find it funny that one would have a qualifier while the others do not.


 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
Killing endangered animals without reason upsets the balance of the ecology in ways that end up coming back against you, therefore it is bloody stupid.


Species die off all the time. Something like 90% of all the species that have ever lived on earth have gone extinct. We will to eventually, and you can be damn sure that no “higher life form” will ever put us on some list. The Dodo went extinct, man was the cause of that. I don’t hear anyone complaining about it. Nor do I see anyways that it “came back against” anyone. In fact, I can’t think of an instance where a species going extinct had a negative impact on our life. Perhaps someone else can think of one?

I can, however, think of an instance where a species going extinct had a positive impact on us: the dinosaurs. It has been said that if the cataclysmic event that wiped out the dinosaurs had not happened; there would be a good chance they would be the dominant species on the planet. If that were the case you wouldn’t be able to bitch about animal testing because you would be too busy trying not to become some velociraptor’s next meal.

 Originally Posted By: XauriEL
You follow the rule of not jumping off 100 story buildings.


No, but I am mindful of the laws of gravity. \:D

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If one considers morals to be solely subjective, one can't suddenly start preaching objective ones. Those rules about harming children and killing non-human animals are just embarrassing when you look at the whole picture. Of course they had to be added to create a schism with traditional Satanism as described in lore and fixated into religious minds


Well said. Especially concerning the rule of not harming little children. I doubt if there is anyone Satanist or otherwise that would think it be wrong to harm child solely because TSB says that it is so. The majority of people, I think, would avoid that because their own morality, with outside influence or not, deems it to be wrong. This of course would not apply to sociopaths or other people who get off on doing such things.

I would think that the main reason that not harming little children was specifically outlined as a “rule” is as D has already pointed out; to distance LaVey’s vision of Satanism from what most of society would view Satanism as (i.e. some sort of fringe cult that sacrifices newborns to Satan).
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#20655 - 02/17/09 09:00 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
XauriEL Offline
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Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Who's talking about morality?
I'm not.
I'm talking about making reasonable choices in order to have a successful life.
I'm talking about the way I see the LaVeyan precepts. I don't see them as moral prescriptions. I see them as algorithms to be applied to the situation at hand. Obviously I'm speaking only for myself.
It's not 'conformity' to die when you fall off a 100 story building. Reality is not subjective.
You mentioned the ninth rule, so that's the example I used. I don't recall saying anything about whether it was moral.
I really could not care less what 'moral' choices you make. If morality is absolutely subjective, it's a meaningless term with no relevance to what I'm talking about.
 Quote:
Guidelines can't be broken. Identifying traits, rules and laws require conformity. Satanism by nature can't be of a conformist nature and it cannot wield with moral premises.

 Quote:
So the rule is, 'you're not allowed to follow any rules'?

 Quote:
... suddenly agreeing with my argument from before but now accusing me of saying that I claim none should follow any rule at all.

That's what I understood you to say. It seemed to me that you were specifically invalidating my choice to follow the 'guidelines' I choose to undertake. Pardon if I misapprehended, but your sentence structure is unclear.

Thank you for being 'nice' as far as it goes, but you seem to be arguing with something other than what I'm saying.
The flippant, disrespectful reference to my place of residence is not appreciated. Please engage with me, not with your ignorant preconception of what I am.
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#20657 - 02/17/09 09:01 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Zoid Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If one considers morals to be solely subjective, one can't suddenly start preaching objective ones.


In my view there is no such thing as a moral dimension to the universe. The Superego is a disease. The Ten Commandments are mind-rape. My parents were jackasses and what they taught me was poisonous.

This doesn't stop me, however, from refusing to perform and refusing to let others perform behaviors that I abhor. This is precisely why I had previously drawn attention to what I talk about as Satanic Heart. Good is what I'm emotionally positive toward. Evil is what I'm emotionally negative toward. And yes, this is the epitome of subjectivity. I consider the notion of objective values to be an oxymoron.

If Person X makes ready to shoot a harpoon at a humpback whale in my presence, I will use force to stop that from occurring. If Person X is a better fighter, I will lose and fail; otherwise, I will win and succeed. In taking this action, I will make no claims of morality, God's will, lessons from my parents, or any other pretense at being guided by objective truth. I like whales; I don't like whale-harpooners; I protect the first and resist the second because my heart compels me to do so.

Whenever free agents come near one another, there is the possibility of collision. Sub-atomic particles collide. Air currents collide. Tigers and antelopes collide - if the tiger is fast enough. Collision and freedom do not contradict one another. Quite the contrary.

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth are my emotions written down. They are my heart on paper. If they weren't, I would reject them. If Person X has a heart that rejects the Eleven Rules, then Person X and I will collide. This is natural. This is life. I uphold Person X's intrinsic freedom to oppose me. I will also punch Person X repeatedly in the face. There is no contradiction.

In the end this boils down to that well known principle, might is right. That principle, might is right, is the unspoken foundation of all law. Laws bind because might says so. Behind every law is a gun. Even our election laws are secured by might. If our armed forces rejected an election, it would stand rejected, because against our armed forces there is no feasible recourse. Democracy exists because the military permits it to. This is true in every country.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

So what is so wrong with killing or eating endangered species? Actually nothing.


Right and wrong don't exist at all. But wrath exists, and ofttimes carries a gun.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

There is no value difference between a cow and a shark.


Objectively there is no value difference between any two things we could name, because objective value is an oxymoron. Speak of emotion, and might, and then the shark may come to be seen as more valuable than the cow.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

A lion will eat the last antelope without thinking twice.


Not if I shoot the lion. An odd scenario, to be sure, since lions are more threatened than antelopes, but I take your hypothetical as I find it.

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#20659 - 02/17/09 09:41 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
XauriEL Offline
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Registered: 02/16/09
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Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
 Quote:
The problem with that being; who decides what qualities define a worthless parasite? I could make the argument that a rat is a worthless parasite. That aside – what makes you think you could force this upon anyone?

Fair question. From Dictionary.com: Parasite n. 2. a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others. Make of that what you will.
I don't believe I mentioned the issue of force here. I meant to imply that parasites deprived of their support might well be glad to be useful as human test subjects rather than being left to starve. Apparently I need to practice my clarity and concision.
 Quote:
Are you implying that without these “guidelines” one wouldn’t be able to “live a long, happy, self-fulfilled life”?

No, I don't believe I said that. I think these particular guidelines, among others, are merely a human reflection of the realities of the universe we live in. That is, they are rationally discoverable from first principles. Anyone who has a happy life, the more power to them, obviously they're doing something right. I don't see the SB as 'received wisdom' but rather as a human laying out his (admittedly at times flawed) reasoning on why it's a good idea to act a certain way. I wouldn't try to enforce those rules or convert anyone to them, though I often marvel at the circumstances people bring on themselves from failing to understand the consequences of their actions.
 Quote:
I just find it funny that one would have a qualifier while the others do not.

I would say the rule is specifically applied to children because children are specifically powerless to do the things that would justify harming them. Whereas there are a vast array of circumstances that would justify hurting or killing another adult. Similarly, I can't think of any circumstance offhand where whatever someone gets out of rape could possibly be worth the kind of shit they bring back on themselves. But I can certainly imagine circumstances where taking something away from someone that they didn't want or can't handle could be both to their benefit and to mine (which was the specific principle I was referring to).
 Quote:
Species die off all the time ... I can’t think of an instance where a species going extinct had a negative impact on our life.

Edible fish stocks are declining to the point where people are losing their jobs. You might like jellyfish but I prefer tuna. However it goes beyond just the immediate impact. Ecologies are complicated nonlinear systems where minor disturbances have major effects. When one species goes extinct others replace it who are capable of surviving and thriving on whatever killed the unfortunate one. When you fill the ocean with poison, it creates fireweed. The death of the dodo didn't have adverse effects, true; but then, the dodo was in isolated population in a relatively closed system (that's why it became so stupid). It was a one off. That case doesn't tell us a lot about the ecosystem as a whole.
 Quote:
I can, however, think of an instance where a species going extinct had a positive impact on us: the dinosaurs.

I wasn't aware that was the direct result of human activities. Let's not get anthropic here.
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#20666 - 02/17/09 10:35 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Simply put, if people who identify themselves as LaVeyan Satanists wish to follow the dictate, DO NOT HARM CHILDREN... it's their right to do so. And it's a no brainer that there are children around the world that could be harmed because we use product X... Union Carbide's fiasco in Bhopal, India killed children and women and men and animals. But in this, you're looking at a "we are the world scenario." Satanism isn't a religion that looks at "the world," or has a "we are the world" mindset. It focuses on the individual and what the individual chooses to do in HIS OR HER LIFE ONLY. If that coincides with a group of other individuals, perhaps a group calling themselves LaVeyan Satanists, does that say that it's some kind of universal rule? No. It says that it's a concept that has been embraced by individuals who ascribe to a philosophy in which that precept is a part.

What's ridiculous, and frankly intellectually dishonest, is when every fucking post becomes an exercise in nit picking and parsing language... agenda driven, for the most part... by people who have the capability to do better. There are people who don't like LaVey. Ok. There are people who don't like the LaVeyan Statements or Rules. OK. You don't have to, and nobody... NOBODY says you have to. By the same token, those who find that those guidances meet their needs have the same right to follow them as they see fit.

No. I wouldn't harm a child. I know that children are harmed by many things that humanity does. I can't help that. I simply wouldn't willingly harm a child. No. I wouldn't kill a non-human animal unless attacked or for food. I know that non-human animals are killed all the time . I can't help that. I simply wouldn't kill a non human animal unless attacked for food. Big deal. If that offends you, then thank you for playing and fuck you very much... you're just a little to invested in my life.

People don't get it that as Satanism ISN'T a world-hugging-kumbaya type or religion/philosophy. All of this, "well, it happens every day, all over the world" rhetoric means nothing in our acceptance of what Satanism is. And we don't care what Satanism is to YOU. It's not our job to meet up to your expectations or to try to argue why we're right and you're wrong. We're right for US. You're right for YOU.

LaVey wrote a piece in The Cloven Hoof in the late 70's that shows our attitude for the most part.

"There are some men who are islands, entire of themselves, but most are pieces of the continent -- part of the maine. If a clod -- and clods they be -- is washed away by the sea, the mainland is richer, albeit smaller. If a promontory were washed away, then some small alarm might be caused if one's manor builded from unique efforts stood upon it. But no man's death, save he who stands by me, diminishes me. Other men's deaths make the earth a sweeter, finer place for those who have the capacity to relish each moment spent upon it. Each useless drone's death enriches me. I am involved in growth, and the incompetent dead can at best provide fertilizer. Then, though the land be lesser in size, it will be richer in soil and lusher in visage. Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls because someone is being paid to pull the rope."
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#20687 - 02/18/09 03:54 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This isn't even about nitpicking. It's about a fundamental weakness incorporated into a philosophy claiming to oppose them. What is intellectually dishonest about it, is that all those grand defenders of the rules at the same time also seem to be defenders of eliminating just that what some rules are about. Think welfare, think eugenics, think...
If you insert something kumbaya, you end up being kumbaya.

If Satanism is about transcending the current, weakness should be eliminated, not embraced. Choice will always remain.

D.

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#20692 - 02/18/09 05:21 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
This isn't even about nitpicking. It's about a fundamental weakness incorporated into a philosophy claiming to oppose them. What is intellectually dishonest about it, is that all those grand defenders of the rules at the same time also seem to be defenders of eliminating just that what some rules are about. Think welfare, think eugenics, think...
If you insert something kumbaya, you end up being kumbaya.


One of the early Revolutionary War flags depicted a snake with the words, "Don't tread on me." That is precisely - I say again, precisely - the spirit of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth.

Tell me, please, if you see a meaningful difference between the following two statements.

1. Point that gun at me and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

2. Point that gun at X and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

Replace X with any of the following and tell me, please, if a meaningful difference emerges between the options.

1. - my car

2. - that Rembrandt painting on the museum wall

3. - that five year old girl I've never met

4. - that nearly extinct marsupial

I don't see any meaningful difference at any point in this exercise. All the options boil down to, "Pull that trigger and I'ma fuck you up," to speak in rap for a moment.

In a might is right world, rules will be imposed. How do I know? Because we already live in a might is right world and always have - no other kind of world has ever existed - and rules are imposed here. Among wolves, the alpha male eats first. That's a rule. Among walruses, the male who defeats his rivals will mate, the male who doesn't, won't. That's a rule.

Among humans, the toughest guy in the room (or the guy with the most allies in proximity) gets to include under his protection anything he likes. That's a rule.

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#20694 - 02/18/09 05:59 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Might is right is a mechanism in nature. It's not a rule at all. Predator, prey, victim, aggressor are all subject to this mechanism. There is no fixed rule for any of these to follow or behave accordingly. In nature, animals react as instructed, we do have choice, illusionary or not. What we do, or rather should do, is not reject this mechanism. When we fulfill a certain need and behave according this natural mechanism, we don't need to feel bad about it. We can not sin, so it is plain silly for us to invent sins, no matter how subtle hidden . We don't need to suffer from slave morality as indoctrinated into us by society or religion. We define our own morality, when something applies and when not and when it is the right time to behave in a certain manner. If someone else sets up moral principles, we do not need to follow them.

The concerns of the many are not the concerns of us. The only thing we have to be concerned about is us and, if that is appropriate is someone's case, their extended tribe. The moment this extended tribe starts to include unknowns, one is more than a foot into a kumbaya philosophy.

There are rules out there and there are laws and they are imposed but it does not imply anyone has to conform. In reality they do NOT exist. It only implies there is a price tag to everything. If the price is right, all is allowed.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (02/18/09 06:12 AM)
Edit Reason: changed wording

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#20709 - 02/18/09 09:50 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: XauriEL]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.

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#20722 - 02/18/09 11:54 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: joseph oreilly]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Tell me, please, if you see a meaningful difference between the following two statements.

1. Point that gun at me and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.
2. Point that gun at X and you better make your first shot count because you won't get another.

Replace X with any of the following and tell me, please, if a meaningful difference emerges between the options.

1. - my car
2. - that Rembrandt painting on the museum wall
3. - that five year old girl I've never met
4. - that nearly extinct marsupial

I don't see any meaningful difference at any point in this exercise. All the options boil down to, "Pull that trigger and I'ma fuck you up," to speak in rap for a moment.


I see a difference. In every possible way you'll get what you deserve.
- If you shoot my car, I'd hurt you quite badly.
- The Rembrandt will most likely get you arrested for destroying cultural history of great value, in which you shall pay several millions dollars and let you go broke.
- The five year old might give you death sentence and possibly lynched in certain countries...
- The marsupial will make famous, but hated by many people. A blame you have to cope with...

If you knew your Satanic philosophy you should have known you must carry the fruits of the seeds you have planted.
To make things short: there is a difference after the action has taken place. Don't start crawling back with "Yeah but in prehistoric times...." fuck-it, did we have cars in the prehistory?

@ Joseph O'reilly
 Quote:
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.

Read your biology and learn to think.
Animals only seem to have one purpose to us, but destroy one specie and the whole nature will be in imbalance and will have negative effects on us.
Fucking idiot....
_________________________
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#20730 - 02/18/09 12:35 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: joseph oreilly]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: joseph oreilly
Lavey's just bored and lazy sometimes animals don't serve any other real purpose on earth besides food for us and taking part in their own natural food chain, what's the point of protecting them it just leads to an unadventurous diet to which I pity you!

Endangered tigers taste incredible as well as parrots, pandas and wales, if they die out in the process of my lunch forgive me for not shedding a tear.


Oh shit, not you again.

Do you mind explaining why you think LaVey was "just bored and lazy"? While we are the subject of explaining things; how do you know what a tiger, parrot, panda or whale tastes like? I smell a load of bullshit.
_________________________
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#20731 - 02/18/09 12:40 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If you start feeding trolls soon we will have a whole nest of trolls, and will have to call an exterminator.

Are you going to pay for that!?
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#20733 - 02/18/09 12:47 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I haven't even begun to feed....

I am curious as to how Joseph here plans to substantiate any of his claims. I would think that you, Dan, of all people would be quick to want to cut through this bullshit. What better way than to give him the rope and let him tie his own noose?

Pay for the troll exterminator? Hell, i'll do you one better; I will be the exterminator. I have a shit load of Black-Flag (the bug spray, not the band) in my garage.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#20734 - 02/18/09 01:07 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I no longer even acknowledge the existence of complete morons in this place, as it is a luxury afforded here. Anywhere else, I at the very least have to go out of my way to walk around them.

In other words, I only bother with bullshit that at least has the cursory appearance of coherence. It is obvious this joseph guy isn't capable of offering any sort of real resistance. Like kicking a dog after all it's legs have been amputated.

Hardly sporting.
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#20735 - 02/18/09 01:19 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Touche good sir; point well taken.
_________________________
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#20777 - 02/19/09 06:16 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Might is right is a mechanism in nature.


It isn't even that. It's merely a philosophical statement that expresses the obvious ramification of another philosophical statement, namely, "The universe doesn't have a moral dimension."

There's a song lyric I can remember, despite my inability to remember the title or any other lyrics from the song: "I got the gun, so I get the pesos - yeah, that seems fair."

In a universe with no moral dimension, the most dangerous entity in the room makes the rules for that room, and if the other denizens complain about moral codes being violated, every word they say can be rejected a priori as gibberish.

The real choices the denizens have are as follows:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Break the rules and prepare for defensive combat alone or with allies.

3. Attack, alone or with allies, the dangerous entity who made the rules.

This is true choice. The dangerous entity hasn't removed the power of choice from the denizens. The dangerous entity has merely narrowed the range of choices for the denizens to basically three.

And by the way, the dangerous entity doesn't by any means have to be human. A bobcat might set the rule, "Don't come within three feet of me."


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

What we do, or rather should do, is not reject this mechanism. When we fulfill a certain need and behave according this natural mechanism, we don't need to feel bad about it.


I agree with all of that. I could quibble semantics but I won't.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

We can not sin, so it is plain silly for us to invent sins, no matter how subtle hidden.


The Nine Satanic Sins are so-named because the name catches our attention. We actually commit the first sin (stupidity) if we treat the name of the list as if it yielded anything more than two specific warnings:

1. "These things are despised by Anton LaVey and anyone who thinks like him."

2. "These things would be prudent to avoid, since, in each case, there is a penalty that will probably be extracted by the universe, because the universe is, and always has been, a foolkiller."

The universe is a foolkiller. That is natural law. It is implicit in the premise of that pithy institution, "The Darwin Awards."


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

We don't need to suffer from slave morality as indoctrinated into us by society or religion. We define our own morality, when something applies and when not and when it is the right time to behave in a certain manner. If someone else sets up moral principles, we do not need to follow them.


Right timeliness! One of my favorite concepts. \:\)

I agree with all of the above quote. I could quibble semantics but I won't.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

The concerns of the many are not the concerns of us.


I agree - unless the many have me surrounded and are pointing guns at me.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

The only thing we have to be concerned about is us and, if that is appropriate is someone's case, their extended tribe. The moment this extended tribe starts to include unknowns, one is more than a foot into a kumbaya philosophy.


I disagree because I think by "unknowns" you mean, for example, strangers, children we haven't met, rhinoceri we haven't met... and I see no reason to deny myself the opportunity to extend the boundaries of my self in any direction I choose.

This is an important philosophical point. Call it, "the psychic amoeba principle." I can extend the boundaries of my ego to engulf anything I choose to identify with. This makes me larger. It is an emotional investment I deliberately make, the same way I invest financially in the stock market. The dividends are strictly emotional, of course, and this is another reason why I have previously drawn attention to Satanic Heart. If we don't understand the fulfillment and self-actualization that arise directly from the heart, from the emotions, then we won't understand the dividends of emotional investment, and thus we won't understand the practicality of what I'm calling, fancifully, "the psychic amoeba principle."

If I choose to live fiercely by engaging myself directly or indirectly in the well-being of the rhinoceri, this simply means I have enlarged my ego adroitly and successfully, such that I now have a path toward fierce living that I didn't have before. Virtues of the Satanic Heart that will manifest and propel me to actualization would be, especially, fondness, jealousy, justice, terribleness, hate, and relentlessness. Six out of thirteen is pretty good! My life will be enriched.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

There are rules out there and there are laws and they are imposed but it does not imply anyone has to conform. In reality they do NOT exist. It only implies there is a price tag to everything. If the price is right, all is allowed.


I agree - with one semantic quibble I can't walk away from. Rules don't exist in objective reality, this is true, but they exist in subjective reality, and if broken, the consequences in both objective and subjective reality can be severe. More succinctly: might is right.

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#20781 - 02/19/09 09:25 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
So after everything you wrote out, you simply agreed with him.

It seems that "stuff" that comes naturally and flows to most "Satanists", you have a problem internalizing. It seems that you at times go and use all this flowery language in an attempt to almost convince yourself of what it all means.

Are you sure, of who you are, what you feel inside, and what really resonates with your own internal core of being?

Its okay if this isn't for you, and just an exercise in learning about others and yourself.

At least that is how you come across to me at this point.

Enjoy your quest,

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#20785 - 02/19/09 11:17 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
"Everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people
So meet me at the mission at midnight - we'll divvy up there.
Everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people
Well, I got the pistols, so I get the pesos
Yeah, that seems fair."

-The Refreshments, "Banditos"

Just thought I would help you out by finishing the rest of that song lyric.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#20799 - 02/19/09 01:45 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm only going to continue upon some stuff we differ upon.

You claim "Might is Right" not a mechanism but merely a philosophical statement and present an argument for that. I like to point out that your argument is actually affirming my position. In an amoral universe, the most dangerous entity setting the rules for the room shows that the mechanism is at work beyond the control of the entity, beyond morals and beyond philosophy. It's a mechanism beyond the world of subjectivity although morals define how we interpret it.

About unknowns. To me the most important qualifier for something is purpose. What is its purpose to me? If it has none, it is of no importance. And believe it or not; this is how all humans affairs work. The difference being that some use internal qualifiers while others are subject to external ones and confuse those valuations with their own. Morals are some of those external valuations people embrace. You can extend the boundaries of your ego as far as you like and so do I, but my boundaries stop when purpose reaches zero. I like nature and I enjoy watching animals from time to time but even when, none of them has such a value that I feel inclined to propose an external value system or, easier said, being moral about it. And even if, my morality is a pure selfish concern and I expect only the weak to embrace them without evaluation. That being said, I do recognize the duality of it and how one thing can be a master-morality and, at the same time, also be slave morality. The difference merely being in who values it as what.

D.

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#20800 - 02/19/09 02:02 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
In a universe with no moral dimension, the most dangerous entity in the room makes the rules for that room, and if the other denizens complain about moral codes being violated, every word they say can be rejected a priori as gibberish.

The real choices the denizens have are as follows:
1. Follow the rules.
2. Break the rules and prepare for defensive combat alone or with allies.
3. Attack, alone or with allies, the dangerous entity who made the rules.

Take a step back and think. Our Universe has no moral rules.
The strongest "entity" are the laws of nature (not the "strongest will survive" crap.. I'm talking about the laws of physics which also are nature, only described in terms we can understand). Nature isn't an entity, it's just a mere "force" at overall. Some may reflect on it as a god, others as a force, others as a force who stands for... and so on. Against nature nothing can be done, it has universal laws we must obey. We can only use the laws to our own good-doing by studying and manipulating them.

Keep in mind: within this Universe there just aren't any moral rules. Moral rules are man-made, erase them from existance and only the non-moral rules of nature will remain.
And with "non-moral rules of nature" I'm talking about the most lucky species survives etc..
And those rules/laws are just a part of understanding Satanic thinking.


Edited by Dimitri (02/19/09 02:07 PM)
Edit Reason: expanded toughts
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#20810 - 02/19/09 04:37 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Morgan]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
So after everything you wrote out, you simply agreed with him.


I mustn't have been clear, then, since I think Diavolo and I have two significant areas of disagreement, and that doesn't include the semantic quibble about whether "might is right" is a mechanism or a philosophical principle, especially since I've come to see what he's saying in that regard and it makes sense to me, after reading his later post below.

When fleshing out a disagreement with someone, I intentionally identify all the areas of agreement, as a way of clarifying the true areas of disagreement. Also, along the way, I sometimes learn something from the other person, and when that happens, I make a point of saying so.

The two areas of disagreement between Diavolo and myself are:

1. Diavolo sees no worthwhile purpose in the original formulation, and my subsequent embracing, of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth and the Nine Satanic Sins; whereas, by contrast, I see worthwhile purpose in all of that.

2. Diavolo sees no worthwhile purpose in choosing to work against those forces that threaten the existence of animal species; whereas, by contrast, I see worthwhile purpose in it.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

It seems that "stuff" that comes naturally and flows to most "Satanists", you have a problem internalizing. It seems that you at times go and use all this flowery language in an attempt to almost convince yourself of what it all means.


Or to convince myself (and maybe others) of what it doesn't mean. For example, Satanism doesn't mean a disengagement from the full spectrum of emotions. Or at least it doesn't have to, in my view.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Are you sure, of who you are, what you feel inside, and what really resonates with your own internal core of being?


I had hoped I was expressing all that. Nevertheless, I do have a question about myself that might be significant. I wonder if I'm as Narcissistic as some others, and if I'm not, I wonder what that means.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Its okay if this isn't for you, and just an exercise in learning about others and yourself.


Everything I do is just that: an exercise in learning about others and myself.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Enjoy your quest,


Thank you.

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#20814 - 02/19/09 09:09 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

For example, Satanism doesn't mean a disengagement from the full spectrum of emotions. Or at least it doesn't have to, in my view.

Of course it doesn't.

The full spectrum of emotions that we, as humans, can feel are a very large part of our animal nature. As Satanism centers on embracing ones humanity in it's totality, as opposed to cherry picking certain aspects to adore and others to demonize.

Separating emotions into 'good' and 'bad' and then willfully denying expression to those deemed 'bad' leads to all sorts of problems. To be master of ones own universe you must keep the beast that is your psyche happy.

Freeing yourself of pent up emotions that may impede your goals makes achieving them much more likely. In fact, this is the whole idea behind Greater Magic.

So, in short, Satanism can never embody emotional disengagement. We leave that to the christians and whatnot.
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#22575 - 03/26/09 11:09 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
97and107 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 268
Loc: New Mexico
Absolutely, I fully believe in embracing all emotions and finding out what each one means. The dualistic approach serves nothing but to fracture the conscious mind.

Well I am not a Laveyan Satanist nor have I read his books, but I do pick up a lot word-of-mouth...I should really set out to read these.

I don't wear leather anymore, it was more of a test of discipline to see if I could do it, and I love animals. So I noticed just a few weeks ago that Lavey's own personal rules conveys this same ethic, since wearing leather is certainly not food, and our advancement has lead to the development of superior fabrics such as cotton and wool felt. But since leather is a by-product of the meat industry, I think this may be acceptable. if one buys all buffalo meat should one buy all buffalo leather, then? \:D

I put myself on the spot last night because I promised my mother I would buy her a patent leather purse from Brighton tomorrow, so I will be breaking my own rule, oh goody, blasphemy!

I was wondering about "the mating signal"

how does that work? is it for men only? Because if either one gives "the mating signal" isn't that a sexual advance...I guess it's something casual like a wink or a flirtatious statement...

I think I use my eyes most of all. if I look someone in the eyes its rare, but this is cultural - on most reservations native americans rarely look each other in the eyes, which caused some trouble with the European settlers and native diplomacy as I remember - in European culture looking each other in the eye is a sign of respect, not a threat.

If a man looks me in the eyes I immediately avert my gaze as I don't want him to think I wish for his sexual advances.



Edited by 97and107 (03/26/09 11:12 AM)

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#23033 - 04/06/09 09:20 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: 97and107]
OG MUPPET Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 17
Loc: st/louis Mo.
Killing kids and animals. Ill start with the easy one first.

I haven't read it in a long time but if memory severs me right it gos as.. Do not kill animals, except for food and self-defense. I'd say if you look at all of Anton's writing/bios etc.
you'd envision a man who is an animal loving "fool". In his vast plethora of jobs,he has never worked on a farm. For if he had, it mite have read "never kill animals except for food,self-defense AND to protect ones' own pets/live stock/property.

I know. I know. not much difference, but enough to sway a jury ( ones own sense of right and wrong) to convict or acquit. And had that "farm job" been in Texes, coyotes would have been exempt all together.

Killing kids, well their can't be any reason for that, right? lol

During the U.S. civil war, the union army devies code patterns (advance right flank, left flank, etc) in the drum rolls. Guess who they got to dispatch them on the field, the "Little drummer boy". The South got wise to this and started targeting the Little bastards. (I would have. would you?) I can only guess what a few (if any) are thinking. What kind of sick fuck would put a round in the brain pan of a 8/9/10 year old boy. Too this I say, what AssHole!; puts them on the front line?

summery, "Some times were we stand, depends on were we're standing"

post scipt. Back in 95, when the embers of the "satanic panic" were still smoldering. I watch an X-files episode, were Satan himself comes too collect some unpaid union dues, from some dead-beat devil worshipers. The story line is irrelevant, but one line had/has merit for this thread, when Molder states to Skully that "satanist openly reject the ways of child and human sacrifice) I know, only a TV show right, but the writers who researched it most likely read the very words we are debating now. That's the "house niggery" hard at work.

off topic; The very same actor David Duchovny, 13 years play a character with a openly practicing dauther in the show Californication.


Edited by OG MUPPET (04/06/09 09:31 PM)

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#23035 - 04/06/09 09:55 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: OG MUPPET]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
'House niggery'. I honestly find that offensive. As if Satanism is not 'evil' enough, or is supposed to represent some sort of teenage rebellion against society. I often wish the people that took up this line of thinking would just remove themselves from society once and for all and be true to their angsty philosophy.. Ahh to dream...

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Satanism is for Satanists. If you find the 'rules' restrictive, you are barking up the wrong tree, and should probably go do something else.
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#23055 - 04/07/09 06:40 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
Banned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
'House niggery'. I honestly find that offensive.

That honestly made me laugh out loud. Appealing to offensiveness as an argument against a stance? I thought "political correctness" wasn't an argument.
Do you honestly believe Anton LaVey didn't have "public relations" (to put it in a more euphemistic context) in mind whatsoever when he included the rules?

I don't personally go around killing kids or raping people, simply because I don't have a particular desire to do those things, yet alone deal with the consequences of such actions.
I don't need a list of rules from some dead guy to give myself some kind of emotional confirmation in my decision not to abuse kids. It's simply not my choice.

Then again, I can see many inconsistencies in the LaVeyan stance.

If you support the cessation of welfare, you are promoting the slow and agonizing deaths by starvation of many innocent children who cannot be financially supported by their parents. Even if you argue it's the parents' responsibility, you can't blame the kids for their parents being irresponsible - yet you are promoting their suffering and death all the same.

Similarly, if you support the cessation of aid to countries which cannot support themselves, you condemn their children to a terrible and painful death by starvation.

If you support war, you necessarily promote the agonizing death and maiming of many innocent children - unless you take 'collateral damage' as more than a euphemism which enables you to take a comfortable emotional detachment from the situation.

All of these positions directly contradict the rule "do not harm little children".

Also, if you universally condemn rape, well - it is very likely that a conception going back far enough in your chain of ancestors was due to a non-consentual act. If they had followed your rules, you wouldn't be here. Simple.

 Quote:
I have said it before, and I will say it again. Satanism is for Satanists. If you find the 'rules' restrictive, you are barking up the wrong tree, and should probably go do something else.

Anton LaVey might have popularized the term "Satanism" in a non-literalistic fashion. That doesn't make his ideas the be-all and end-all of what defines "Satanism".
If you look in the dictionary, you'll see "Satanism" defined as "devil worship". Why? Because LaVey hasn't had enough of an influence to affect the dictionary. Might makes right indeed.

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#23070 - 04/07/09 08:49 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
That's some really terrible logic, meq. Just terrible.

To start with, I don't know how you arrived at my finding something offensive as being an 'argument'. That's just weird.

You are firstly arguing direct responsibility through degrees of separation. By your logic I am directly responsible for the destruction of rain forests because I use toilet paper, and I am directly responsible for the slaughter of animals because I eat meat. Arguing responsibility through separation is socialism, the very antithesis of Satanism. If you honestly think your argument holds water, which I don't, then you are arguing for socialism and by proxy, egalitarianism.


Secondly, you make the argument that rape is ok because, somewhere in the line of there to here, someone was probably raped in my ancestry. Really, Meq? Because something happened is not a philosophically sound reason to grandfather it into acceptance and legitimacy. If you go back far enough every human is related, but that does not mean I by default have to approve of every action every human before me has ever made. That my friend is a giant non sequitur.

And thirdly, if you are really arguing for Satanism being devil worship(because dictionaries printed in a predominantly christian society say so!), have at it. I don't think you will find much support there, however.

But just out of curiosity, since you are going to go down THAT road, what exactly is Satanism if not..well..Satanism?
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#23072 - 04/07/09 09:29 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Zoid]
Euronymous Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 46
Loc: san diego, ca
I would have to concur on your aforemetioned statements. These are rules that I naturally uphold and I do take benefit from them. They help give an added measure of fufillment in its practical application.

Edited by Euronymous (04/07/09 09:30 PM)
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" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

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#23079 - 04/08/09 09:01 AM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Euronymous]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Alright look you idiot(s)(whoever that may apply to). If you seriously want to debate stupid shit like killing animals and kids and when is who and what, then knock yourself out. If you don't get it it aint for you. If it IS for you, you get it and you have already been doing it. Are you seriously going to sit here and pick apart every little goddamn thing LaVey could have POSSIBLY meant? That's retarded. Everything is circumstantial, and everything is permissable in the propper circumstances. If you don't understand the things like killing kids and shit, then you need help.
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Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#23082 - 04/08/09 12:47 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: blsk]
6Saint6John6 Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Wisconsin
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth are simple to follow and make a ton of sense. How anyone dumb enough to think of killing an animal, or a human child, or drinking the blood of another is somehow linked to the Eleven Rules, should be hit in the head with the Satanic Bible and be called a disgrace and thrown in jail for being stupid!
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People Should Be Afraid Of Their Governemtns. Governments Should Be Afraid Of Their People!

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#23083 - 04/08/09 12:50 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As Satanist we oppose and we accuse. That we got this tendency can be witnessed here on this forum. If someone with a slightly different opinion or idea presents it in this place, within a short amount of time, many of us, like a pack of rabid dogs, pick it apart. It's a good thing, all ideas and arguments need to be criticized before taken as valid. And, as a bonus, it shows what stuff the poster is made from. After all, we're always looking for the right stuff.
But what amuses me greatly is that some of those same persons that have no qualms about ripping others a new asshole because their idea is either weak or considered as silly, apparently start to feel emotional when their ideas are criticized.

Let me explain that on this forum, we always criticized everything -I never have known different- and personally I do think that anyone not able to tolerate some aspects being criticized, should ask themselves some very serious questions. There is nothing holy or divine and expect that every brick of your foundation can or will be criticized, attacked or destroyed when the time is there. If people can't handle that, I will kindly give them links to fluffier places where they maybe can create a wish list of ideas and opinions beyond criticism. But down here, in my case, when I feel inclined to use words like houseniggery, I will use words like houseniggery. And I only expect the Nancies to act like Nancies.

After all, a Satanist is a rock, not a facade.

D.

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#23087 - 04/08/09 01:51 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Houseniggery is a fine word indeed. I agree with you. Everyone criticizes. I was merely criticizing the point of this discussion, that's all. And you came back with your thoughts. Tell me how it's important. Tell me it doesn't need to be. I thought that's what we were doing here.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#23088 - 04/08/09 02:17 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The point of this discussion was that everything is circumstantial, as you subscribe to, and that everything is permissible when a need arises. And that, therefor, unless as an act of what I call societal houseniggery, it is plain nonsense to subscribe to rules that are essentially worthless due to the fact that when a certain situation arises, one can easily put them aside and act differently. It is also important to point out that indirect results can contradict certain ideas, ideals or positions we consider above. And it is important to criticize the very things we take for granted or are essential parts of our beliefs. That's why we are having arguments like this and yes, it is never as amusing to criticize that what is us, as criticizing that what is them.

D.

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#23091 - 04/08/09 03:27 PM Re: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth [Re: Diavolo]
6Saint6John6 Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Wisconsin
You have a good point, why would we crizcize ourselves? Nothing is perfect but it is what and who we are. In no way do I criticize what we are, but I say there are some faults but that is true of everything.
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