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#21502 - 03/04/09 08:32 AM Arguments against Christianity...
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
Folks, I did a foolish thing last night and swam into the shark-infested waters of the chatroom. I wasn't exactly prepared for the barrage of attacks on Christianity that came my direction to be honest. I was outnumbered big time and it was a bit unnerving.

Anyway, I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread in which you guys can list some of the main arguments you have against Christianity. I'll try to respond as best I can and maybe we can all learn something from the experience? It would be arrogant of me to claim that I fully understand Satanism when I'm not one so I would expect the same courtesy shown towards me as a Christian.

What do ye think? I would like to hammer out one point at a time because otherwise things get very tangled...

I must be crazy doing this!

Thanks,
Ichtus.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21503 - 03/04/09 09:44 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid. Something you managed to show once again by registering on a Satanic forum, and to go to a chat filled with satanists who have various reasons not to like Christianity....

Christianity also is hypocritical, they want us to deny our natural instincts so we can "go to heaven" without being any proof there is one, thus forcing people to have a boring 1-sided life without enjoyment (except for the enjoyment of praising christ... but then again, I don't find it necessary to fall on my knees for someone who died 2000 years ago..).

Also, their general morals and "guidelines" have the tendency to keep people stupid and to stop the advancement of the human race. Even now, 200 years after Darwins theory the Vatican took steps in trying to weave the evolution theory with their scriptures... talk about idiots...

Christianity also was responsible for the dark ages were all acquired knowledge was being burned/destroyed by this religion. The dark ages wwere called dark for the fact knowledge was lost, and not the excuse some idiots use as "age of the devil were the good christians were trying to get rid of him.."

Many other reasons are present.. But I don't want to spoil the other members their fun..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21506 - 03/04/09 10:17 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
In all honesty Ichtus, I feel I would have more success in getting my point across to a brick wall.

My approach is to attack ideas, NOT the person.
I must warn you however - not everyone here is so gracious.


But let's start with a fundamental issue, before we come back to it:
Faith.

We cannot prove that there is a God either way, like you said. This may be true in a strict philosophical sense - but is is often used as a leaping-off base for all kind of absurdities.


For example, don't you think it would be a big, blind and intellectually bankrupt leap to reason that, just because we cannot prove there are NOT invisible fairies in your room right now, it is reasonable to believe in them? No?


Let's go through this one more time.
Can invisible fairies be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in them?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR their existence!
Do you follow?

OK, let's use the same logic on the doctrines taught by the Church as truth:

Can a big person outside the universe (who has a penchant for miraculously impregnating virgins and getting incredibly pissed off when teenagers masturbate) be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in one?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR its existence!
Do you follow?


The Christian is guilty of special pleading.
Somehow the above argument works on the invisible fairies, but when it comes to a big person outside the universe, the devout believer's eyes glaze over every time.

And here is where this relates to 'faith'.
To take the leap of faith in the fairies is obviously unreasonable.
But somehow, to take an identical leap of faith in a big person outside the universe is a reasonable thing.

Somehow...

But no, the typical Christian response is to take such a strong logical argument against the reasonableness of their 'faith' as a personal attack, or 'taking the piss'.
And, with a martyr complex, continue believing (through faith of course!) that their faith stance is nevertheless reasonable.
Logically, it is NOT reasonable, clearly as crystal, but the believer just doesn't want to know.

Perhaps I'll go for the brick wall next time.

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#21507 - 03/04/09 11:26 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Attacks on Christianity? All we were doing is giving you verses from YOUR scripture and trying to find out how you could reconcile all the hypocrasies and contradictions therein. I said it last night and I will say it again now, if you feel attacked by your own faith; perhaps you need to re-evaluate that faith.

My main arguments against Chrisitianity? That is easy.

1. Christianity expects you to ultimately devalue this life with the promise of an afterlife. What good is something if you can't have it until you die? Especially when there is no good reason to believe it is true.

2. We are expected to feel ashamed and guilty of being human and giving in to our natural urges. Especially when it comes to sex and masturbation. I will spill all the seed I want thank you very much.

3. It tries to weasle its way into everything. Especially government. I for one am sick and tired of it. Seperation of Church and State anyone? - I know, I know; pipe dream right?

4. Xians, for all the love and tolerance the preach are some of the most hatful and intolerant dickheads I have ever come across in my life.

5. All the contradictions, hypocracies, and implausibilities contained in the bible - OT or NT - cause me to wonder how many of you have actually read the bible. If you did, how can you reconcile all the problems and use the title Christian?

I would like to end with a quote from Gene Roddenberry:
"If this is your God, hes not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; hes so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. Hes a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being."

Have fun, Ichtus - and remember - Hail Satan!
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#21508 - 03/04/09 11:26 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I heard that when you pray to Jesus, your penis shrinks.

I wanted to give you some serious arguments against Christianity but I don't see much reason. What would I gain from it or what would you gain? Would you understand us more and feel a bit of love or compassion for us lost sheep?
I doubt it. You will never be capable of understanding us, just like a monkey will never understand a human, no matter how long he observes them. There is a critical difference and this difference disables you, so it is futile to even attempt.

For me there is nothing in it either. Does it make a difference when I present my arguments to you? No. What are you ever going to respond that benefits me? You ARE a Christian, the personification of my complaints, how can I, from you, ever get a sensible answer to them?

You might be a jolly chap mind you, it's not about that, but you're just prey. You live like it, think like it and will die like it. There will never be mutual understanding so why bother pretending?

D.

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#21510 - 03/04/09 11:38 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
1.we dont come here to target shoot
2. we are not here to stimulate anyone's curiosity.

tread lightly guest.

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#21514 - 03/04/09 01:06 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Dimitri]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid.

There no need for the insults and generalisations. I'm here to debate and if nobody is interested I'll go elsewhere. I was hoping to engage in a mature, intelligent debate. Any chance of that?
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21515 - 03/04/09 01:10 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid.

There no need for the insults and generalisations. I'm here to debate and if nobody is interested I'll go elsewhere. I was hoping to engage in a mature, intelligent debate. Any chance of that?

Is that it?
If you really were here for discussing I would have assumed you should have reacted towards the different reasons I gave you, not the little teasing I do...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21516 - 03/04/09 01:52 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Meq]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: Mequa

Faith.
.....
For example, don't you think it would be a big, blind and intellectually bankrupt leap to reason that, just because we cannot prove there are NOT invisible fairies in your room right now, it is reasonable to believe in them? No?

I have no reason either to believe in or doubt the existence of fairies. Either way, they don't affect my life.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

Let's go through this one more time.
Can invisible fairies be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in them?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR their existence!
Do you follow?
Yes, I'm not a fool. You can't prove a negative. I'm well familiar with that idea.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

OK, let's use the same logic on the doctrines taught by the Church as truth:

Can a big person outside the universe (who has a penchant for miraculously impregnating virgins and getting incredibly pissed off when teenagers masturbate) be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in one?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR its existence!
Do you follow?

I know very well there is no proof available to most people for God's existence, especially for those who doubt Him.

I think however that there many "pointers" to God or divine fingerprints e.g.

- Where does our "conscience" come from?
- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.
- How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?
- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.
- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.
- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.
- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).
- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.
- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?

None of the above are proof but there are lots of people who have no doubt whatsoever having had a spiritual experience. I personally have no proof but I have strong convictions reinforced by experiences of love and peace especially during prayer.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

But no, the typical Christian response is to take such a strong logical argument against the reasonableness of their 'faith' as a personal attack, or 'taking the piss'.

I'm ready to admit that my faith is based on reason alone but I don't find it unreasonable. But faith isn't totally blind. Poeple experience God working in their lives. If Christians got nothing from their relationship with Christ, there would be no Christians left. Fact is Jesus does make a difference to their lives (including mine).
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21517 - 03/04/09 02:02 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
It's a fairytale. A fuckin' lullaby. Now leave. Someone please ban this asshole. Had you bothered to look around you would find a shitload of threads covering this QUITE well.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#21519 - 03/04/09 02:17 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Rig Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
 Quote:

- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?


Abiogenesis, and then evolution through natural selection. Search Google for more information on either topic. You can find numerous articles by scientists who can explain either subject better than I could in this short post.

 Quote:

- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.


Okay, first, the argument you Christians use is that something--an omnipotent, omnipresent god--came from nothing and created everything. That said, the Big Bang doesn't at all postulate that something came from nothing; rather, it's believed that the natural state of the universe is energy. At some point, that energy turned into mass and expanded. Reference Hubble's Red Shift, the law of the conservation of mass-energy, and the Big Bang for more information. You clearly don't understand basic physics. Oh, and look up the principle of Occam's Razor.

 Quote:

- How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?


How does an omnipotent, omnipresent god come from nothing? Wouldn't he himself warrant a creator?

 Quote:

- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.


Show me a documented miracle and explain how it has absolutely no scientific proof. And no, personal experience from a friend of yours is not at all a valid claim.

 Quote:

- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.


Because personal experience is subjective, and not a valid argument.

 Quote:

- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.


Coincidence? No, it couldn't possibly be. Lets ignore all those prayer studies that showed that prayer has had absolutely no effect on anything.

 Quote:

- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).


Again, personal experience is not a valid argument in support of one's position.

 Quote:

- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?


Yeah, because a numerous amount of people believe something, it must be true, right? Sorry, numbers don't work that way. Belief is a relic from the past, when humans didn't have the understanding of life and the universe that they do now. God, or gods, filled the gaps in their knowledge.

 Quote:

- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.


How many times do you need to cite personal experiences?

 Quote:

- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?


Yeah, you definitely need to have an introductory physics course.

 Quote:

None of the above are proof but there are lots of people who have no doubt whatsoever having had a spiritual experience. I personally have no proof but I have strong convictions reinforced by experiences of love and peace especially during prayer.


It's ridiculous to challenge people to a debate and then offer absolutely no proof whatsoever for your claims. You're delusional, by the way.

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#21520 - 03/04/09 02:23 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:

1 Where does our "conscience" come from?
2 How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
3 Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.
4 How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?
5 Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.
6 Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.
7 Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.
8 Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).
9 Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
10 I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.
11 Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?

1)I once had the idea our conscience and diversity of ideas came from the different atomic/molecular interactions and energy exchanges within our brain whom differ from person to person.
I cannot proof it to be right and am quite sure others might show the inconsistencies, but it is more plausible then a giant invisible man controlling us..
2) There are various answers, or to be scientifically more correct: hypotheses, on this one. I'm not in the mood of writing the whole definition of my "personal favourite", instead I'll give the name and a little wikipedia link.
--> Miller-Urey experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment
3) True, but saying "god created it" just replaces the question. Where did he get the material from, and from what material is he made? Also god exists out of faith believers have, but when he created everything, there was no one who believed him so therefor he was in the impossibilty to exist...
4) --> See number 1. Since it is almost the same question only a bit rephrased..
5) At first: what miracles? And you witnessed from who? Also, where you present at the events when they occured? Are you very sure they weren't lying to you?
And yes, in my opinion all miracles have some natural explanation.
6) Mere hormonic events in the body. If I take blood from a person full of the "grace of god" and a sample before he was, I'll find a higher percentage of "lovehormones" in the blood. This triggered by your brains you forced to think about good things... A bit the same as you are in love...
7) --> Like which? Couldn't it be just mere luck? Are you sure there wasn't something normal about it which caused you to think 'your prayers being answered"?
8) --> That's personal jabbering/BS... No critics on that..
9) It's only in the west most believe in a "supreme being".
Take it back 2000 years earlier (or even less) and polytheistic religions ruled the surface of the earth. Even at this moment, there are various people who believe in multiple gods.. Christianity only spread the monotheistic idea by inquisition and holy wars...
10) Those are just people's own opinions. You can't build a whole statement of it. Someone who finally get off of his bad drinking habit by "religion" doesn't mean god has a hand in it. It only means a real person has convinced the other one.. Nothing more, nothing less..
11) For that you must study physics.. conservation laws etc...
Actually laws are not fixed, they differ from time to time. But we as humans simplify them into something more global or fixed.. Easier to count and calculate...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21522 - 03/04/09 02:42 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

1. Christianity expects you to ultimately devalue this life with the promise of an afterlife. What good is something if you can't have it until you die? Especially when there is no good reason to believe it is true.

So you must have something here and now before it's any good? People put money in banks and buy shared and wait for interest/dividends to accumulate don't they?

I find it actually give this life far greater meaning and purpose.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

2. We are expected to feel ashamed and guilty of being human and giving in to our natural urges. Especially when it comes to sex and masturbation. I will spill all the seed I want thank you very much.
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

3. It tries to weasle its way into everything. Especially government. I for one am sick and tired of it. Seperation of Church and State anyone? - I know, I know; pipe dream right?
Again how does that argument invalidate Christianity. I'm looking for arguments that attempt to disprove Christianity, not things you don't like about it. Maybe you don't like people who oppose gay marriage? So what?

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

4. Xians, for all the love and tolerance the preach are some of the most hatful and intolerant dickheads I have ever come across in my life.[/quotes]Ditto. You might no like what they have to say or maybe some of them are hypocrites. Does that make the teachings of Jesus false just because they don't follow them all the time? No!

[quote=6Satan6Archist6]
5. All the contradictions, hypocracies, and implausibilities contained in the bible - OT or NT - cause me to wonder how many of you have actually read the bible. If you did, how can you reconcile all the problems and use the title Christian?
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge? I didn't take a copy of the verses provided last night.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Have fun, Ichtus - and remember - Hail Satan!

I'm definitely not expecting to have fun here and I'll hail Jesus and His blessed mother, not the enemy.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21523 - 03/04/09 03:05 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Rig Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus

I find it actually give this life far greater meaning and purpose.


Your greater meaning and purpose is to live your life believing in the grand delusion that is Christianity? I'd rather live my life by logic and reason than submit to an imaginary sky wizard.

 Quote:
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


Perhaps not, but the lack of proof in favor of his existence does mean he more than likely doesn't exist. In fact, there's no proof whatsoever that he is indeed extant. You Christians believe in your god because a 2,000 year-old book tells you he exists. Sorry, but that book alone can't prove itself to be valid.

 Quote:
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge? I didn't take a copy of the verses provided last night.


We'd be here all day and long into the night if people started listing the contradictions, inaccuracies, absurdities, and atrocities in the bible. The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is a nice website to start at.

 Quote:

I'm definitely not expecting to have fun here and I'll hail Jesus and His blessed mother, not the enemy.


Have fun hailing a dead guy who--if he actually existed--was no more than an illiterate cult leader.

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#21528 - 03/04/09 03:37 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I have no reason either to believe in or doubt the existence of fairies. Either way, they don't affect my life.


Stick around for a while and you'll soon see that neither does the cosmic jewish zombie you call "Jesus".

 Quote:
I know very well there is no proof available to most people for God's existence, especially for those who doubt Him.


-2 points for the generalization that there's no proof for MOST when there is no proof AT ALL, and -5 points for capitalizing the H in "him".

If you can prove one that there is a god, you can prove it to anyone. You may be able to fool others into believing in his (lowercase h) existence, and you yourself may BELIEVE he exists, but there is no physical proof of his existence. This is why Christianity is a religion based on FAITH and not FACT. Faith is believing in something on a feeling so to speak. You can have as much faith in your scripture as possible, and that's fine, just don't go around claiming anyone can "prove" it to be true, or that there is a god of any kind. By making this ridiculous claim we've heard so many other Christians make you have proved to us that you are no different than any other Christian, so when we generalize and "attack" you, don't take offense to it...We are only going by what we have dealt with before, and yes, you are all alike in most ways. I just find it strange that you find such an interest in Satanism...Then again, a lot of us here started our lives as Christians as well...Take it from me, there are a lot of fairly intelligent people on this website. Speaking as the 600 club 'hall moniter', if you shut your mouth and open your ears, you just might here something that clicks, and who knows...Maybe YOU'LL find an argument against Christianity.

If you only knew the power of the "dark side"....
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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