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#21561 - 03/04/09 11:37 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Fish guy, listen, you simply just don't get it.

As Bacchae an Morgan already pointed out, we just don't care.

The argument is not against Christianity, the argument is against arguing with Christians. It is really pointless.

Sure, some people do seem to enjoy this sort of mental masturbation. But, I personally prefer the real thing over masturbation.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#21562 - 03/04/09 11:44 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Paul Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Debyshire, England
I know I shouldn't encourage him but what the heck!

My Main Argument Against Christianity:-

God does not exist.

Next question.

Just because you can't explain the world without resorting to outdated superstitions, doesn't mean I can't.

All of your, so called proofs of existence, merely demonstrate a complete ignorance of modern science. All the answers are there in the real world. You don't have to come here for your answers. Try Wikipedia.

You came here to bolster up your own failing faith. Your early posts reveal you were expecting everyone here to be devil worshiping, demon conjuring heretics. Well we're not.

There was a new TV series here in the UK recently about a catholic exorcist. I watched the first two episodes but it was the usual cliched rubbish. The point is:- the devil and all his works were there for all to see. Possessions, foaming at the mouth, funny eyeballs,...

What you never see is god. No angels, no savior, no god,... Just deluded priests.

That's why you're here isn't it! You're looking for the devil, for Satan. Because if we can give you that, we will have restored your faith in a god you can never directly experience. Alpha & Omega. Light & Dark. Good & Evil. Black & White. God & Satan. Never one without the other. Isn't that the way your philosophy goes.

Tough. There is neither here. Only chaos.

Now go away. It's nearly 5am and I'm tired and irritated, never a good combination.


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When I'm good I'm good but when I'm bad I'm better!

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#21564 - 03/05/09 12:42 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
So you must have something here and now before it's any good? People put money in banks and buy shared and wait for interest/dividends to accumulate don't they?


Yes, I must have something here now before it’s any good. The money you speak is included in the here and now. People don’t have to wait until they are dead to collect the profits from putting money into CD’S now do they? Apples and oranges my friend.

 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


It invalidates it in my mind. That is just an argument against Christianity, which is what you wanted. “God” is a universal negative – can’t be proven or disproven. However, since you are the one to claim his existence the burden of proof would be on you.

 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge?


Maybe you should start looking at things critically. As per your request here are some example of the contradiction I speak of. Bear in mind there are many, many, more. Have fun:

John, chapter 14, verse 9 says: “he who has seen me (Jesus) has seen the Father.” This would include his mother, disciples, and others. However, the Hebrew bible says “He who has seen the face of God shall die (Exodus 33:20).” (Note: Even today, thousands of Christians claim to have seen Jesus.)

“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:8). Yet, Jesus asserted the contrary; that he “did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword” in Matthew, chapter 10, verse 34.

Romans, chapter 10, verse 13: “For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” But Matthew, chapter 7, verse 21 says “Not everybody who says to me (Jesus), Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom.”

Ecclesiastes 1:4 claims that the earth does abideth forever. In II Peter 3:10, the opposite is stated.

Paul says. “It is shameful for a man to wear his hair long” (I Corinthians 11:14). Glaringly, this is the only way Jesus is ever pictured.

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Regarding Jesus' stepfather, was he Joseph son of Jacob son of Mattan son of Eliezer (Matthew 1:15-16) or Joseph son of Eli son of Mattat son of Levi (Luke 3:23-24)? And how can both sets of genealogical tables validly include Shealtiel and Zerubabbel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27), given that both of these men are descendants of Jeconiah (1 Chronicles 3:16-19), of whom the Hebrew god has said: “No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David or ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22-30)?

See, even though it may be impossible to disprove the existance of "God", we can recognize that the "evidence" in favor of such a belief is severely lacking. Many Xian like to tout the Bible of proof of God's existance, "because it is his word".

Aside from the fact that circular reasoning like that is fallacious it also ironically discredits the very thing it intends to prove. If God is infallible, and the Bible is the word of God, then so too is the Bible infallible. Since the bible is full of so many contradictions then it could mean two things, that God is not infallible or the Bible isn't the word of God. Do you see where this is going?
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#21573 - 03/05/09 05:38 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Since you are so fond of agnostic arguments, I'll let the great Scottish skeptic and ironist David Hume have the last word, written some 260 years ago:

"So that, upon the whole, we may conclude, that the Christian Religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. Mere reason is insufficient to convince us of its veracity: and whoever is moved by Faith to assent to it, is conscious of a continued miracle in his own person, which subverts all the principles of his understanding, and gives him a determination to believe what is most contrary to custom and experience."
(An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Of Miracles [written 1748], closing text, italics mine.)

I'd recommend reading the entire Enquiry.
As my university lecturers were fond of saying - this passage is truly delicious irony.

Have a nice day.

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#21587 - 03/05/09 06:01 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
However, since you are the one to claim his existence the burden of proof would be on you.

I'm not trying to prove that God exists. What I did mention were things to my mind that I would consider to be evidence.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

John, chapter 14, verse 9 says: “he who has seen me (Jesus) has seen the Father.” This would include his mother, disciples, and others. However, the Hebrew bible says “He who has seen the face of God shall die (Exodus 33:20).” (Note: Even today, thousands of Christians claim to have seen Jesus.)

Since the Father is pure spirit, it makes no sense to take Jesus words literally. I can only assume that Jesus was using that phrase to equate Himself with the Father. His words were often a bit cryptic.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:8). Yet, Jesus asserted the contrary; that he “did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword” in Matthew, chapter 10, verse 34.

I take this to mean that Jesus was predicting that His coming would have this effect, not that He wanted there to be strife. He knew some would follow Him and others would resist which would cause friction.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Romans, chapter 10, verse 13: “For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” But Matthew, chapter 7, verse 21 says “Not everybody who says to me (Jesus), Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom.”

The first is talking about a true conversion to Jesus, the 2nd is about a confession without substance i.e. hypocrisy.

See the previous verse:

9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Ecclesiastes 1:4 claims that the earth does abideth forever. In II Peter 3:10, the opposite is stated.

In Ecc, the writer was making the point that life is short compared with the age of the earth. The bible isn't meant to be a scientific book.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Paul says. “It is shameful for a man to wear his hair long” (I Corinthians 11:14). Glaringly, this is the only way Jesus is ever pictured.

We don't actually know what Christ looked like so this is just speculation.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Context is always important. I think in 5:31, Jesus is acknowledging that His testimony alone can't be true and that it must come from the Father. In 8:14, Jesus means that His testimony is true because it comes from the Father and the same verse goes on to say "for I know whence I came".

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Regarding Jesus' stepfather, was he Joseph son of Jacob son of Mattan son of Eliezer (Matthew 1:15-16) or Joseph son of Eli son of Mattat son of Levi (Luke 3:23-24)? And how can both sets of genealogical tables validly include Shealtiel and Zerubabbel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27), given that both of these men are descendants of Jeconiah (1 Chronicles 3:16-19), of whom the Hebrew god has said: “No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David or ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22-30)?
It's not something I've studied to be honest. I'll have to investigate it.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

See, even though it may be impossible to disprove the existance of "God", we can recognize that the "evidence" in favor of such a belief is severely lacking. Many Xian like to tout the Bible of proof of God's existance, "because it is his word".
I certainly don't claim that the bible proves the existence of God.
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#21588 - 03/05/09 06:05 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
Ichtus, would your Priest and Pope just shit their vestments if they saw your new Avatar? Bwahahahaha!!!


Roger.
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#21589 - 03/05/09 06:08 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
All, I started this thread with in the hope that we might have a mature, intelligent debate. Few of the responses so far have shown either of these qualities. I'll do you all a favour and disappear now.

May God bless you all,
Ichtus.

P.S. Turning my cross upside-down was SO juvenile.
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1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21590 - 03/05/09 06:12 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
A parting message for you and your Holy and righteous Roman Catholic Church. Good riddance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EdZ3u5qXQ


Roger.
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#21596 - 03/05/09 07:53 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Grandpabeast]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Amazing, how childish and unnecessarily hostile everyone on here has been to our Christian guest.

Ichtus, I'd like to apologize.

But you have to understand, that debates between Christians and LHPers are never fruitful, as both sides tend to be quite happy where they're at. When one starts arguing over minutae, such as specific Bible quotes, the entire discussion falls to pieces in short order. So when you say you want to "understand" Satanists and occultists, you'd have to walk a mile in their shoes first. I believe that most of us here have been in your shoes already, so we have achieved our philopsophical position in life through experience. Mere back-and-forth discussions aren't going to open up any doors of comprehension for you.
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#21597 - 03/05/09 07:55 PM Goodbye [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
I don't see your kind of blind faith as representative of maturity or intelligence. Octavius, Nemesis and myself have at least attempted to be civil. I did warn you however not to expect that from most members here. It is a courtesy, not a right - and most members see no reason to be courteous to Christians.

There are other places on the Net where you can debate arguments for and against Christianity. This site is for members on the other side of the fence as yourself. You are/were a guest here.

 Quote:
P.S. Turning my cross upside-down was SO juvenile.

Did it ever occur to you that using a crucifix on a site like this is akin to using a Nazi swastika on a Jewish site?
After all, we are not the ones visiting a Christian site as a guest and flashing a Sigil of Baphomet. Do bear that in mind.

May Satan's blessings be with you, just in case rationality and logic might someday penetrate that thick fog of faith you have hidden yourself in. Then again, one could argue that this world needs its sacrificial lambs.
If you desire to be a non-hypocritical Christian Ichtus, do bear in mind that Christ desires massive sacrifice - even your slow and painful death as a martyr for the greater good.
If you don't like that idea - and don't want to be a hypocrite - THAT is precisely what Satan is for.

Good luck in your travels.

Mequa

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#21599 - 03/05/09 09:00 PM Re: Goodbye [Re: Meq]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
My fellow satanists,
I have to apologize for those here who feel the need to apologize to those, like Ichtus, who support a (current) powerhouse built on child terror, exploitation, mass murder(as opposed to simply saying "piss off" like we were trying to do here), manipulation, perjury, and theft. You owe no sympathy for anything you chose to say here.


Ichtus,
I apologize for nothing. Anything that was said cruel, obscene, or hostile by anyone has my full support. You should be ashamed and embarassed for what you have chosen to stand for. You are weak, and your life meaningless. Be gone with you and good riddance. If this hurts your feelings just remember, jesus loves you;)
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#21600 - 03/05/09 10:09 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Ichtus I wish you no ill will in fact I was the one to first answer your question as simply put as I could with no attitude at all… It took many words for others to get right back to my simple answer… Amusing…

You were told much here even if it was not what you wanted to hear… This particular flaw (weakness) is in many humans no matter what they believe, they get pissed off when they do not hear the answers they want… They then go on about how rude and unintelligent everybody was etc, etc, etc…

I apologize for no one but myself as I am responsible for no one else… As I didn’t say much of anything to you I have nothing to apologize for… I do admit I feel some disgust towards the others that felt the need to apologize to you for anything else than their own actions… Of course their gain is simple they feel above the actions of others it feeds their egos… If that is what they need to feel elite so be it… There are titles for them as well although Satanist may be the wrong one… This is not counting the apology that was clearly sarcasm of course…

See Ichtus humans do not differ greatly no matter which path they follow… To the Roman Catholics elitism is who has the best seat in church, which family wears the nicest clothes, or drives the nicest car… Equally trivial as thinking you are a better Satanist… One may even think it is the same basic human need which fuels both, just different names and symbolism are used…

Now let me point out that if you are catholic you should be fasting for lent… As of yesterday text messaging and other unnecessary use of technology is frowned upon during lent…

Catholics Urge High-Tech Fast for Lent << Click the link…

Enjoy your path…

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (03/05/09 10:20 PM)
Edit Reason: too many edits to point out
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#21601 - 03/05/09 10:20 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: ta2zz]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I don't apologize. I still call him a coward.

His camp is still full of some of the most repugnant miscreants of humanity; bottom feeders, child molesters, thieves, liars... the list goes on. Yet he finds his true calling in trolling the web, trying to debate the undebatable with those for whom he feels morally superior, as if anyone who supports such a cesspool of moral bankruptcy could ever be morally superior to anyone.

Ichtus is a Christian, and I would no more try to convert him than I would try to recruit someone to Satanism. I am a Satanist. I will always hold disdain for those of his sort.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#21603 - 03/05/09 11:00 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Jake999]
Paul Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Debyshire, England
I see nothing to apologize for either.

He left because he couldn't argue his case adequately and I stand by my first post on this topic, he came looking for devils to prove the existence of his god and found none. Neither did he find a bunch of inarticulate head cases easily swayed to the path of "righteousness".

If one or two people were over zealous in their condemnation of his standpoint, well I can't blame them. They might have good reason to be more vitriolic than the rest of us, or they might just have been on a shorter fuse. I found it difficult not to be more aggressive with him myself.

Whilst religion itself might only be responsible for some of the ills of this world. The rest can be blamed on the megalomaniacs, of all denominations, who hijack it's absolute authority to further their own agenda.

In my opinion if you don't believe in god then you find yourself automatically opposed to religion and the religionists who pedal it's message.

I would have argued with him as politely as I could for as long as he liked but in the end his "faith" will always blind him to whatever logic we throw at him.

He's better off gone.
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#21606 - 03/05/09 11:34 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I am a Satanist. I will always hold disdain for those of his sort.


Hear hear.

And furthermore, this attitude that we should be somehow 'above' expressing this sort of disdain, this smug 'higher ground' pretentious bullshit that I see coming from so many 'Satanists' really makes me shake my head and sigh.

There is no 'live and let live' or 'respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours'. Christians are never going to respect your beliefs or mine. They are never going to just let you alone. The very nature of their religion commands them to go forth and spread it, like a pestilent thought disease. It's sickening.

We are their enemy by our very existence.

Everything about Satanism stands in direct opposition to everything they stand for. It is an inverted negative mirror image of their backward death worshiping life hating beliefs.
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