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#21502 - 03/04/09 08:32 AM Arguments against Christianity...
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
Folks, I did a foolish thing last night and swam into the shark-infested waters of the chatroom. I wasn't exactly prepared for the barrage of attacks on Christianity that came my direction to be honest. I was outnumbered big time and it was a bit unnerving.

Anyway, I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread in which you guys can list some of the main arguments you have against Christianity. I'll try to respond as best I can and maybe we can all learn something from the experience? It would be arrogant of me to claim that I fully understand Satanism when I'm not one so I would expect the same courtesy shown towards me as a Christian.

What do ye think? I would like to hammer out one point at a time because otherwise things get very tangled...

I must be crazy doing this!

Thanks,
Ichtus.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21503 - 03/04/09 09:44 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid. Something you managed to show once again by registering on a Satanic forum, and to go to a chat filled with satanists who have various reasons not to like Christianity....

Christianity also is hypocritical, they want us to deny our natural instincts so we can "go to heaven" without being any proof there is one, thus forcing people to have a boring 1-sided life without enjoyment (except for the enjoyment of praising christ... but then again, I don't find it necessary to fall on my knees for someone who died 2000 years ago..).

Also, their general morals and "guidelines" have the tendency to keep people stupid and to stop the advancement of the human race. Even now, 200 years after Darwins theory the Vatican took steps in trying to weave the evolution theory with their scriptures... talk about idiots...

Christianity also was responsible for the dark ages were all acquired knowledge was being burned/destroyed by this religion. The dark ages wwere called dark for the fact knowledge was lost, and not the excuse some idiots use as "age of the devil were the good christians were trying to get rid of him.."

Many other reasons are present.. But I don't want to spoil the other members their fun..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21506 - 03/04/09 10:17 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
In all honesty Ichtus, I feel I would have more success in getting my point across to a brick wall.

My approach is to attack ideas, NOT the person.
I must warn you however - not everyone here is so gracious.


But let's start with a fundamental issue, before we come back to it:
Faith.

We cannot prove that there is a God either way, like you said. This may be true in a strict philosophical sense - but is is often used as a leaping-off base for all kind of absurdities.


For example, don't you think it would be a big, blind and intellectually bankrupt leap to reason that, just because we cannot prove there are NOT invisible fairies in your room right now, it is reasonable to believe in them? No?


Let's go through this one more time.
Can invisible fairies be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in them?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR their existence!
Do you follow?

OK, let's use the same logic on the doctrines taught by the Church as truth:

Can a big person outside the universe (who has a penchant for miraculously impregnating virgins and getting incredibly pissed off when teenagers masturbate) be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in one?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR its existence!
Do you follow?


The Christian is guilty of special pleading.
Somehow the above argument works on the invisible fairies, but when it comes to a big person outside the universe, the devout believer's eyes glaze over every time.

And here is where this relates to 'faith'.
To take the leap of faith in the fairies is obviously unreasonable.
But somehow, to take an identical leap of faith in a big person outside the universe is a reasonable thing.

Somehow...

But no, the typical Christian response is to take such a strong logical argument against the reasonableness of their 'faith' as a personal attack, or 'taking the piss'.
And, with a martyr complex, continue believing (through faith of course!) that their faith stance is nevertheless reasonable.
Logically, it is NOT reasonable, clearly as crystal, but the believer just doesn't want to know.

Perhaps I'll go for the brick wall next time.

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#21507 - 03/04/09 11:26 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Attacks on Christianity? All we were doing is giving you verses from YOUR scripture and trying to find out how you could reconcile all the hypocrasies and contradictions therein. I said it last night and I will say it again now, if you feel attacked by your own faith; perhaps you need to re-evaluate that faith.

My main arguments against Chrisitianity? That is easy.

1. Christianity expects you to ultimately devalue this life with the promise of an afterlife. What good is something if you can't have it until you die? Especially when there is no good reason to believe it is true.

2. We are expected to feel ashamed and guilty of being human and giving in to our natural urges. Especially when it comes to sex and masturbation. I will spill all the seed I want thank you very much.

3. It tries to weasle its way into everything. Especially government. I for one am sick and tired of it. Seperation of Church and State anyone? - I know, I know; pipe dream right?

4. Xians, for all the love and tolerance the preach are some of the most hatful and intolerant dickheads I have ever come across in my life.

5. All the contradictions, hypocracies, and implausibilities contained in the bible - OT or NT - cause me to wonder how many of you have actually read the bible. If you did, how can you reconcile all the problems and use the title Christian?

I would like to end with a quote from Gene Roddenberry:
"If this is your God, he’s not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he’s so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He’s a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being."

Have fun, Ichtus - and remember - Hail Satan!
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#21508 - 03/04/09 11:26 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I heard that when you pray to Jesus, your penis shrinks.

I wanted to give you some serious arguments against Christianity but I don't see much reason. What would I gain from it or what would you gain? Would you understand us more and feel a bit of love or compassion for us lost sheep?
I doubt it. You will never be capable of understanding us, just like a monkey will never understand a human, no matter how long he observes them. There is a critical difference and this difference disables you, so it is futile to even attempt.

For me there is nothing in it either. Does it make a difference when I present my arguments to you? No. What are you ever going to respond that benefits me? You ARE a Christian, the personification of my complaints, how can I, from you, ever get a sensible answer to them?

You might be a jolly chap mind you, it's not about that, but you're just prey. You live like it, think like it and will die like it. There will never be mutual understanding so why bother pretending?

D.

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#21510 - 03/04/09 11:38 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
1.we dont come here to target shoot
2. we are not here to stimulate anyone's curiosity.

tread lightly guest.

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#21514 - 03/04/09 01:06 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Dimitri]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid.

There no need for the insults and generalisations. I'm here to debate and if nobody is interested I'll go elsewhere. I was hoping to engage in a mature, intelligent debate. Any chance of that?
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21515 - 03/04/09 01:10 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To start with, most people (just like yourself) in Christianity are ignorant and just plain stupid.

There no need for the insults and generalisations. I'm here to debate and if nobody is interested I'll go elsewhere. I was hoping to engage in a mature, intelligent debate. Any chance of that?

Is that it?
If you really were here for discussing I would have assumed you should have reacted towards the different reasons I gave you, not the little teasing I do...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21516 - 03/04/09 01:52 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Meq]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: Mequa

Faith.
.....
For example, don't you think it would be a big, blind and intellectually bankrupt leap to reason that, just because we cannot prove there are NOT invisible fairies in your room right now, it is reasonable to believe in them? No?

I have no reason either to believe in or doubt the existence of fairies. Either way, they don't affect my life.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

Let's go through this one more time.
Can invisible fairies be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in them?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR their existence!
Do you follow?
Yes, I'm not a fool. You can't prove a negative. I'm well familiar with that idea.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

OK, let's use the same logic on the doctrines taught by the Church as truth:

Can a big person outside the universe (who has a penchant for miraculously impregnating virgins and getting incredibly pissed off when teenagers masturbate) be proven absolutely NOT to exist?
No.
Does that mean it's reasonable to believe in one?
No, of course not.
Why not?
Because there is no actual evidence FOR its existence!
Do you follow?

I know very well there is no proof available to most people for God's existence, especially for those who doubt Him.

I think however that there many "pointers" to God or divine fingerprints e.g.

- Where does our "conscience" come from?
- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.
- How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?
- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.
- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.
- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.
- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).
- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.
- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?

None of the above are proof but there are lots of people who have no doubt whatsoever having had a spiritual experience. I personally have no proof but I have strong convictions reinforced by experiences of love and peace especially during prayer.

 Originally Posted By: Mequa

But no, the typical Christian response is to take such a strong logical argument against the reasonableness of their 'faith' as a personal attack, or 'taking the piss'.

I'm ready to admit that my faith is based on reason alone but I don't find it unreasonable. But faith isn't totally blind. Poeple experience God working in their lives. If Christians got nothing from their relationship with Christ, there would be no Christians left. Fact is Jesus does make a difference to their lives (including mine).
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21517 - 03/04/09 02:02 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
It's a fairytale. A fuckin' lullaby. Now leave. Someone please ban this asshole. Had you bothered to look around you would find a shitload of threads covering this QUITE well.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#21519 - 03/04/09 02:17 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Rig Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
 Quote:

- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?


Abiogenesis, and then evolution through natural selection. Search Google for more information on either topic. You can find numerous articles by scientists who can explain either subject better than I could in this short post.

 Quote:

- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.


Okay, first, the argument you Christians use is that something--an omnipotent, omnipresent god--came from nothing and created everything. That said, the Big Bang doesn't at all postulate that something came from nothing; rather, it's believed that the natural state of the universe is energy. At some point, that energy turned into mass and expanded. Reference Hubble's Red Shift, the law of the conservation of mass-energy, and the Big Bang for more information. You clearly don't understand basic physics. Oh, and look up the principle of Occam's Razor.

 Quote:

- How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?


How does an omnipotent, omnipresent god come from nothing? Wouldn't he himself warrant a creator?

 Quote:

- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.


Show me a documented miracle and explain how it has absolutely no scientific proof. And no, personal experience from a friend of yours is not at all a valid claim.

 Quote:

- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.


Because personal experience is subjective, and not a valid argument.

 Quote:

- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.


Coincidence? No, it couldn't possibly be. Lets ignore all those prayer studies that showed that prayer has had absolutely no effect on anything.

 Quote:

- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).


Again, personal experience is not a valid argument in support of one's position.

 Quote:

- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?


Yeah, because a numerous amount of people believe something, it must be true, right? Sorry, numbers don't work that way. Belief is a relic from the past, when humans didn't have the understanding of life and the universe that they do now. God, or gods, filled the gaps in their knowledge.

 Quote:

- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.


How many times do you need to cite personal experiences?

 Quote:

- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?


Yeah, you definitely need to have an introductory physics course.

 Quote:

None of the above are proof but there are lots of people who have no doubt whatsoever having had a spiritual experience. I personally have no proof but I have strong convictions reinforced by experiences of love and peace especially during prayer.


It's ridiculous to challenge people to a debate and then offer absolutely no proof whatsoever for your claims. You're delusional, by the way.

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#21520 - 03/04/09 02:23 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:

1 Where does our "conscience" come from?
2 How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
3 Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.
4 How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?
5 Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.
6 Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.
7 Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.
8 Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).
9 Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
10 I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.
11 Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere?

1)I once had the idea our conscience and diversity of ideas came from the different atomic/molecular interactions and energy exchanges within our brain whom differ from person to person.
I cannot proof it to be right and am quite sure others might show the inconsistencies, but it is more plausible then a giant invisible man controlling us..
2) There are various answers, or to be scientifically more correct: hypotheses, on this one. I'm not in the mood of writing the whole definition of my "personal favourite", instead I'll give the name and a little wikipedia link.
--> Miller-Urey experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment
3) True, but saying "god created it" just replaces the question. Where did he get the material from, and from what material is he made? Also god exists out of faith believers have, but when he created everything, there was no one who believed him so therefor he was in the impossibilty to exist...
4) --> See number 1. Since it is almost the same question only a bit rephrased..
5) At first: what miracles? And you witnessed from who? Also, where you present at the events when they occured? Are you very sure they weren't lying to you?
And yes, in my opinion all miracles have some natural explanation.
6) Mere hormonic events in the body. If I take blood from a person full of the "grace of god" and a sample before he was, I'll find a higher percentage of "lovehormones" in the blood. This triggered by your brains you forced to think about good things... A bit the same as you are in love...
7) --> Like which? Couldn't it be just mere luck? Are you sure there wasn't something normal about it which caused you to think 'your prayers being answered"?
8) --> That's personal jabbering/BS... No critics on that..
9) It's only in the west most believe in a "supreme being".
Take it back 2000 years earlier (or even less) and polytheistic religions ruled the surface of the earth. Even at this moment, there are various people who believe in multiple gods.. Christianity only spread the monotheistic idea by inquisition and holy wars...
10) Those are just people's own opinions. You can't build a whole statement of it. Someone who finally get off of his bad drinking habit by "religion" doesn't mean god has a hand in it. It only means a real person has convinced the other one.. Nothing more, nothing less..
11) For that you must study physics.. conservation laws etc...
Actually laws are not fixed, they differ from time to time. But we as humans simplify them into something more global or fixed.. Easier to count and calculate...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#21522 - 03/04/09 02:42 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

1. Christianity expects you to ultimately devalue this life with the promise of an afterlife. What good is something if you can't have it until you die? Especially when there is no good reason to believe it is true.

So you must have something here and now before it's any good? People put money in banks and buy shared and wait for interest/dividends to accumulate don't they?

I find it actually give this life far greater meaning and purpose.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

2. We are expected to feel ashamed and guilty of being human and giving in to our natural urges. Especially when it comes to sex and masturbation. I will spill all the seed I want thank you very much.
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

3. It tries to weasle its way into everything. Especially government. I for one am sick and tired of it. Seperation of Church and State anyone? - I know, I know; pipe dream right?
Again how does that argument invalidate Christianity. I'm looking for arguments that attempt to disprove Christianity, not things you don't like about it. Maybe you don't like people who oppose gay marriage? So what?

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

4. Xians, for all the love and tolerance the preach are some of the most hatful and intolerant dickheads I have ever come across in my life.[/quotes]Ditto. You might no like what they have to say or maybe some of them are hypocrites. Does that make the teachings of Jesus false just because they don't follow them all the time? No!

[quote=6Satan6Archist6]
5. All the contradictions, hypocracies, and implausibilities contained in the bible - OT or NT - cause me to wonder how many of you have actually read the bible. If you did, how can you reconcile all the problems and use the title Christian?
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge? I didn't take a copy of the verses provided last night.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Have fun, Ichtus - and remember - Hail Satan!

I'm definitely not expecting to have fun here and I'll hail Jesus and His blessed mother, not the enemy.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21523 - 03/04/09 03:05 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Rig Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus

I find it actually give this life far greater meaning and purpose.


Your greater meaning and purpose is to live your life believing in the grand delusion that is Christianity? I'd rather live my life by logic and reason than submit to an imaginary sky wizard.

 Quote:
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


Perhaps not, but the lack of proof in favor of his existence does mean he more than likely doesn't exist. In fact, there's no proof whatsoever that he is indeed extant. You Christians believe in your god because a 2,000 year-old book tells you he exists. Sorry, but that book alone can't prove itself to be valid.

 Quote:
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge? I didn't take a copy of the verses provided last night.


We'd be here all day and long into the night if people started listing the contradictions, inaccuracies, absurdities, and atrocities in the bible. The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is a nice website to start at.

 Quote:

I'm definitely not expecting to have fun here and I'll hail Jesus and His blessed mother, not the enemy.


Have fun hailing a dead guy who--if he actually existed--was no more than an illiterate cult leader.

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#21528 - 03/04/09 03:37 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I have no reason either to believe in or doubt the existence of fairies. Either way, they don't affect my life.


Stick around for a while and you'll soon see that neither does the cosmic jewish zombie you call "Jesus".

 Quote:
I know very well there is no proof available to most people for God's existence, especially for those who doubt Him.


-2 points for the generalization that there's no proof for MOST when there is no proof AT ALL, and -5 points for capitalizing the H in "him".

If you can prove one that there is a god, you can prove it to anyone. You may be able to fool others into believing in his (lowercase h) existence, and you yourself may BELIEVE he exists, but there is no physical proof of his existence. This is why Christianity is a religion based on FAITH and not FACT. Faith is believing in something on a feeling so to speak. You can have as much faith in your scripture as possible, and that's fine, just don't go around claiming anyone can "prove" it to be true, or that there is a god of any kind. By making this ridiculous claim we've heard so many other Christians make you have proved to us that you are no different than any other Christian, so when we generalize and "attack" you, don't take offense to it...We are only going by what we have dealt with before, and yes, you are all alike in most ways. I just find it strange that you find such an interest in Satanism...Then again, a lot of us here started our lives as Christians as well...Take it from me, there are a lot of fairly intelligent people on this website. Speaking as the 600 club 'hall moniter', if you shut your mouth and open your ears, you just might here something that clicks, and who knows...Maybe YOU'LL find an argument against Christianity.

If you only knew the power of the "dark side"....
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#21530 - 03/04/09 04:30 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
- Where does our "conscience" come from?
- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.
- How do reason/intelligence/self-consciousness/ideas come from matter/atoms?
- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.
- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.
- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.
- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).
- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.
- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere



-Consciousness is the result of the physical brain. If you don't believe me, read up on biology and biochemistry.
-"Inanimate material" is composed of many microscopic living organisms that multiply, mutate, and evolve.
-Correction, for anything to exist both time and space have to be infinite. If there was never matter, where did it come from, and how did it come to be? The answer is simple. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Think of the ever popular argument "it always was and always will be". This is simple science, taught by any first grade science teacher. Common sense...People should be able to put two and two together by now. The big bang was the expansion of what already existed into an infinite amount of space existing in time, which is also infinite. None of this happened in 6 days...
-Physical matter CAN produce consciousness. It is the only reasonable explanation. Feelings/emotions are the result of chemical reactions occuring in the brain, the brain being made up matter. Everything in the human body can be broken up into various systems. Let's focus on the nervous system. Thousands of electrical impulses being sent from the brain to your finger cause your finger to move. Is this metaphysical? No. The impulses are infact physical. "Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there". Break everything down into the simplest form possible. Think small. Everything is built from the smallest forms of life possible. Is it so hard to believe things evolve? THINK!
-There's an explanation behind EVERYTHING. If there isn't, it's just because you can't see it or it hasn't yet been discovered. Do you think cavemen understood fire when they first discovered it? Wouldn't they have been wrong to believe it was the work of a god? It would seem to be the most logical explanation at first, but given thought, examination, and time, all things can be explained.


Ok, prayers, personal revelations, spiritual experiences....Listen, number one, people lie. Number two, it's impossible for someone to understand everything, including what they see, feel, hear, touch, smell, think, ect. Speaking as someone who has experience hallucenations (natural and chemically induced ;\) ), I can honestly say I have seen, thought, and heard things I can't explain or understand, but that doesn't mean that it can't be explained. Over time, I have been able to explain a lot of things...

"Holy shit, batman just came out of my closet".
Later that day..."Oh fuck, I forgot I dropped acid during math class ".

Just an example..
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#21532 - 03/04/09 04:57 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Mike]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Ichtus -

If I were a more Christian person I'd apologize for the idiotic responses you've received thus far. Please note that the vast majority of replies you've received are from absolute idiots who couldn't debate their way out of a wet paper bag, much less hold a civilized conversation. The perfect example of a weak-minded person is one who replies to debate with insults and slurs. We have our share of sycophantic and myopic "satanists" here, just as you likely have your share of the same in whatever Christian forums you frequent.

You will find that most self-proclaimed satanists to be rude, callow, and insecure. Those who are not will usually entertain a civilized discussion with most people, provided it stays civilized and respectful. You respect my beliefs, and I'll do the same. We don't have to agree, but we can debate. That being said, I'd like to share one of the tenets of my Satanic beliefs...The Seven Signs of Spiritual Slavery:

1. You must believe that the source of the teachings is not a mere human being. Therefore you will believe that your thoughts, and those of other humans, are inferior and ultimately illusory.

2. You are given the threat of spiritual or physical punishment should you cease to follow the teachings. Therefore you will fear to look in places that may reveal other truths.

3. You are led to believe that human suffering is necessary for the eventual betterment of mankind. Therefore you can never dedicate the wholeness of your being to squelching human turmoil.

4. You are taught that your very nature is a transgression against "right". Therefore you will resist that which would bring you joy by authority of your nature.

5. You are led to believe that your salvation extends solely from the will of a particular supernatural force or entity. Therefore you will fear to resist its will and place yourself in subservience to it.

6. You are given the promise of immortality. Therefore in dreading death you will fear to question the teachings.

7. You must have unquestioning faith in the teachings. Therefore you will never know the truth of any other.


To the rest of my Satanic "brethren", you disappoint me. As usual.

Octavius
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#21534 - 03/04/09 05:31 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Octavius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Come on Oc, get a couple of steps down from your heavenly throne.

Christians are here for a couple of reasons. Either they want to do their good deed and gather god's brownie points in converting the lost sheep or they seek affirmation because their own belief apparently isn't strong enough on itself. Our dear friend here is of the second type and all this 'tell me what's wrong' is nothing more than a kick-start into the sequel 'I'll tell you why it's right' which ends in god and satan measuring penis size. Either way, what he is doing here is a big waste of time, done before and proved to end similar in all cases.

He's a fool to say it as nice as possible and not only that, he's also the opposition. Not merely because he is a christian but also because he represents everything we oppose AND promotes it. The only proper action is certainly not of the fluffy kind.

D.

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#21535 - 03/04/09 05:34 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Rig]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: Rig

Abiogenesis, and then evolution through natural selection. Search Google for more information on either topic. You can find numerous articles by scientists who can explain either subject better than I could in this short post.

I'm familiar with abiogenesis but as far as I know there is no agreed theory. Even if abiogenesis is true it does nothing to disprove the existence of a soul. I'm too am familiar with random mutation filtered by natural selection, shock horror.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Okay, first, the argument you Christians use is that something--an omnipotent, omnipresent god--came from nothing and created everything.

Where did you get that idea that God came from nothing? Christians believe that God is eternal i.e. with no beginning and no end and existing outside time.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

That said, the Big Bang doesn't at all postulate that something came from nothing; rather, it's believed that the natural state of the universe is energy. At some point, that energy turned into mass and expanded.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this point. Prior to the singularity there was no space-time or energy. Scientists actually have no idea what caused it, they only know that space-time and energy began with the big bang. Before that there was nothing. See http://www.big-bang-theory.com

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Reference Hubble's Red Shift, the law of the conservation of mass-energy, and the Big Bang for more information. You clearly don't understand basic physics. Oh, and look up the principle of Occam's Razor.
I've studied physics. I'm familiar with these concepts.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

How does an omnipotent, omnipresent god come from nothing? Wouldn't he himself warrant a creator?

See above. God was never created. He is uncreated.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Show me a documented miracle and explain how it has absolutely no scientific proof. And no, personal experience from a friend of yours is not at all a valid claim.

You'd have to be very stubborn not to claim that all miracles have a natural explanation. A miracle by definition has no natural explanation.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Because personal experience is subjective, and not a valid argument.

To those who've had the experiences there no doubt. Whether others believe them is another matter.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Coincidence? No, it couldn't possibly be. Lets ignore all those prayer studies that showed that prayer has had absolutely no effect on anything.

Don't you know that you shouldn't put God to the test?
It's very easy to dismiss the power of prayer when you haven't tried it.

 Originally Posted By: Rig

Yeah, because a numerous amount of people believe something, it must be true, right? Sorry, numbers don't work that way. Belief is a relic from the past, when humans didn't have the understanding of life and the universe that they do now. God, or gods, filled the gaps in their knowledge.

Yes, you could look at it that way but I think people have a God-given desire to seek something far greater than themselves.
I believe people are never completely happy with the things of this world, we always want more and for me God is that something.

 Originally Posted By: Rig
Yeah, you definitely need to have an introductory physics course.

Scentists have developed equations that predict motion and the effects of forces etc but that doesn't explain why these laws exists in the first place and why they behave consistently. Smart-alec comments don't really add anything to the discussion.

Now I've given some of the reasons I believe in God. Probably doesn't mean a whole lot to you but I have good reasons for believing. My faith isn't completely blind. But this isn't why I started this thread. I'm looking to refute arguments put forward by satanists that seek to invalidate Christianity.

Peace,
Ichtus
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21539 - 03/04/09 06:02 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Diavolo]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Come on Oc, get a couple of steps down from your heavenly throne.

Christians are here for a couple of reasons. Either they want to do their good deed and gather god's brownie points in converting the lost sheep or they seek affirmation because their own belief apparently isn't strong enough on itself. Our dear friend here is of the second type and all this 'tell me what's wrong' is nothing more than a kick-start into the sequel 'I'll tell you why it's right' which ends in god and satan measuring penis size. Either way, what he is doing here is a big waste of time, done before and proved to end similar in all cases.

He's a fool to say it as nice as possible and not only that, he's also the opposition. Not merely because he is a christian but also because he represents everything we oppose AND promotes it. The only proper action is certainly not of the fluffy kind.

D.


A fair summation. I just get my nuts in a twist when I read drivel like this. Ichtus' post notwithstanding, the replies from our members leave much to be desired.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#21540 - 03/04/09 06:18 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Octavius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I know Oc, my nuts twist so much at times they could sell them as a toy to kids. I don't mind the dude on this board as long as he does keep his 'religious' drivel to himself and brings worthy input at other levels. But what he is doing is the same as me joining a baseball team and then keep ranting about how great football is. There is a time and place for everything.

When they pop up here, reactions like this are to be expected. In fact, people are being rather nice, I've seen worse. They are the forum's stress balls, it's their purpose for a while until our ways part again. And unavoidably they'll part.

And about the replies of our members. Well, what can I say, they leave much to be desired but that isn't only in this thread. Still, what we are looking for can't be delivered in mass so we have to endure the smell of fish as we are waiting.

D.

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#21541 - 03/04/09 06:52 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Rig Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus

I'm familiar with abiogenesis but as far as I know there is no agreed theory. Even if abiogenesis is true it does nothing to disprove the existence of a soul. I'm too am familiar with random mutation filtered by natural selection, shock horror.


You asked how life arose from non-life; I answered your question. I certainly wasn't offering abiogenesis as proof against a soul existing, because a soul had nothing to do with the original question or response. But, since you brought it up, there's nothing that proves the existence of a soul. You're the one claiming it exists, therefore the burden of proof lies upon you. Where is your evidence, outside the teachings of your errant, archaic tome?

 Quote:

Where did you get that idea that God came from nothing? Christians believe that God is eternal i.e. with no beginning and no end and existing outside time.


I know what Christians believe; I was one for over 18 years. The next thing you'll tell me is that our finite minds cannot comprehend how god is eternal. Well, the point still stands: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; what is yours?

 Quote:

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this point. Prior to the singularity there was no space-time or energy. Scientists actually have no idea what caused it, they only know that space-time and energy began with the big bang. Before that there was nothing. See http://www.big-bang-theory.com


Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and the Big Bang occurred when energy turned into mass and expanded. With that in mind, do you care to link me to peer-reviewed physics theories that postulate that energy was created by the Big Bang?

 Quote:

See above. God was never created. He is uncreated.


So he doesn't exist? Great; I guess we're done here.

 Quote:

A miracle by definition has no natural explanation.


Right, now show me a documented miracle and explain how it is impossible to explain through science and/or reason. I'm still waiting.

 Quote:

To those who've had the experiences there no doubt. Whether others believe them is another matter.


Again, one person really, really, really believing something doesn't make it true.

 Quote:

Don't you know that you shouldn't put God to the test?
It's very easy to dismiss the power of prayer when you haven't tried it.


You're so quick to assume I haven't tried it--I was a Christian for 18 years of my life. All documented studies have shown that prayer doesn't work, so how about you show me some evidence that it does?

 Quote:

Yes, you could look at it that way but I think people have a God-given desire to seek something far greater than themselves.
I believe people are never completely happy with the things of this world, we always want more and for me God is that something.


You think, you believe; that's nice. Your delusional beliefs do not lend credence to something that has no proof, and makes no sense.

 Quote:

Scentists have developed equations that predict motion and the effects of forces etc but that doesn't explain why these laws exists in the first place and why they behave consistently. Smart-alec comments don't really add anything to the discussion.


Your explanation for these laws existing in the first place is that god did it. I'm sorry, but even though science can't explain every minute detail, it's a lot more convincing than a poorly-written book that tells me that god did it.

 Originally Posted By: Octavius

A fair summation. I just get my nuts in a twist when I read drivel like this. Ichtus' post notwithstanding, the replies from our members leave much to be desired.


All due respect to a blue member, I'm curious why you consider all our responses to be trash. You haven't even responded to Ichtus' questions; I have, and in a rather logical manner. Granted, I could've been a little less sarcastic--but what is it about my responses that leaves much to be desired?

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#21543 - 03/04/09 06:58 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Mike]
ortho Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France.Paris
Hy!
Dear christ's lover;
How can you speak about a religion which does'nt have any historical or archeological fact?
It has been build on lies:
The only proof we can see, is a part, a piece of stone where the names of "Tiberius" and "Pilatus" appear.
Pilate is mentionned in a dedication to Tiberius Caesar which clearly says that it was from "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea."
You can see this stone in the "Israel Museum" (Jerusalem)
From Caesarea, Israel
New Testament Period
Pontius Pilate, (26-37 AD).

That is the only fact alone, archeologists have found about this mysterious entity you named "Iesus Nazareus Rex Iudeorum"...
All the "History" has been build by bishops,priests and Popes during the different councils specially those of:
year / location
325 Nicee I
381 Constantinople I
431 Ephese
451 Chalcédoine
553 Constantinople II
680-681 Constantinople III
787 Nicée II
At the begining your man was a Master, an enlightened one;at the end he has been made(propulsed) as god,son of god,living of the same nature with the father and the holy spirit!
All this position in fact after the recognition of the "Church" as "official religion" by the emperor Constantin(272-337 AD).
About the Bible and its "History" it is the same.
No sentence engraved by Egyptians on the "Hebrews" exode too; only one which tell us the victory of "Meremptah, 13th son of Ramses",who has crushed the "Israel".
You can see this "stone of Meremptah" in the museum of Cairo!

Concerning "Avram" renamed "Abraham", he left his country in fact to flee, to run away of the war resulting of the invasion of "Akkad Empire" -(approximatively 2180-2004 BC) by the "Barbarians".After 2000BC, the new kingdom fell under the rushes of "Elamites" and "Amorrites" peoples.
Avram, the retailer, the merchant,the "clan chief", has gone away in other climes to live more quietly, with his family ( about 800 peoples indeed!)
Thank you very much,dear christ lover to give us the opportunity to have look on the real fact! And not on a legend, which put fire and blood everywhere crusaders arrived!
Have a good night!

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#21544 - 03/04/09 07:06 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Rig]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
Ictus, I am not going to debate your belief system and mine. I do wonder why you would come and register at a Satanic website though. Our belief systems are obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum. You can't compare apples to rocks... If you are openminded enough and want to learn about Satanism, I would reccomend reading some books. There are a pleathera of books out there on Satanism. Perhaps by reading a few you could somewhat relate to what draws us to Satanism. There is no "evil dark side" for me. Like I have said before, true Satanism is vastly different than what Hollywood or the preachers make it out to be. Just know though, by coming and registering here you walk into the situation making yourself a target for critisism. I wouldn't register on a Christian site to speak about Satanism, and I already know all I want to about Christianity. Know that many people here are Ex-Christians. We come here to interact with like minded people, not debate theology and faith.


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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#21547 - 03/04/09 07:56 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Wow, you opened up a nasty can of worms with this thread. Most of us have enough reason behind their antichristianity to fill several books. Anyway, here it goes, I hope I can provide some new insight that hasn't been pounded to death already.


- Where does our "conscience" come from?
- How did life/DNA, with all its immense complexity, emerge from inanimate material?
- Why caused the big-bang? Science (Penrose/Hawking) has shown that the material we see in the universe came from nothing and that time began with the big-bang.


Our conscience comes from our genetic behavior. Look at animals- they all have various altruistic behaviors that help them survive as a species. Human beings are no different.

Science never claimed "everything came from nothing". Science only states how the universe came together from a giant mass of existing material. How this material came into existence in the first place is unknown.



- Can all miracles really have a natural explanation? I've spoken to people who've witnessed miracles first hand in others or themselves.


Yes, it's quite possible for them to all be bullshit. Even if we somehow knew for a fact that all miracles were false, people would still make up stories about miracles based on misinterpretations, luck, or outright lies. Therefore the only way to verify whether miracles exist would be to empirically test them. So far we have found absolutely no modern evidence of supernatural miracles. All tested psychics, mind-over-matter magicians, miracle-workers, faith-healers, etc, have been found to have been working off of either psychological cues or outright deception.

If you're talking about a "miracle" as in, "once my brother was in the hospital with a deadly disease, and the doctor said there was a million-to-one chance of mortality, but he survived! It must have been Jesus!" Yes, keep in mind that the brother was that tiny, naturally-occurring .001 you will always have. Yet for every 1 person that survives (your brother), chance dictates that there will probably be 999,999 other people that die from that disease. Why attribute it to God when such cases naturally occur by chance?


- Private revelation: why discount every testimony from those who claim to have had a spiritual experience. I've read the biographies of several saints who all have said that the love of God is so powerful it's overwhelming at times.


So? Every person has moments of intense psychological euphoria, not just from religious experiences.

Even if spiritual experiences DID exist supernaturally, why do you conclude they come from the Christian god? Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Theistic Satanists, etc, will all tell you about how one time this vision of Jesus/Mary/Mohammed/Odin/Satan appeared to them, clear as day, and bestowed upon them some profound words of comfort or miraculous display of power. They can't all be from the same source because the natures of the deities are so contradictory. If spiritual experiences are truly spiritual, then this must point to some kind of polytheism.



- Countless people including me have had lots of prayers answered.


See the one two questions above about chance. Keep in mind that all these prayers are self-limiting, ie, they could naturally occur without you praying. (people recovering from disease, receiving a large fortune, etc). Here's a classic challenge. Pray for an amputee. Pray every day for God to make his severed leg whole. When it happens, maybe then I'll start believing.


- Personal experience of the Holy Spirit's grace working in a person (I've felt this wonderful light several times).


See previous.


- Why does such a large percentage of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being? Where does this belief come from?
- I find the testimonies of converts convincing e.g. someone who was delivered from a hopeless life of drug addiction when all else failed. e.g. Brian Welch formerly of Korn.


We believe in a Supreme Being because most of the human race can't stand the idea of there being no life after death, or no imaginary cosmic father figure, so they use these as psychological crutches. Satanists, Atheists, and other such skeptics are not bothered by the idea of oblivion, so we question any kind of pie-in-the-sky spiritual idea that seems to exist for no other purpose than to fill in emotional/logical gaps.

As far as "uplifting" goes, keep in mind that there are also many people who can turn their life around WITHOUT a God, simply by picking themselves up by their own bootstraps. In my opinion, this is where TRUE strength comes from (a sort of "Satanic Strength") where a person can do amazing things in their lives with their own two hands, without a God, rather than relying on some imaginary best friend.


- Why does the known universe always obey fixed laws? Why is physical behaviour consistent everywhere


What does this have to do with proving the existence of a Christian god? This could also be explained by deism, polytheism, gnostic maltheism, platonic monotheism, etc.

You seem to be relying on the "Watchmaker" argument- the idea that since the world is complex and intricate, it must have been divinely created.

So let's look at a watch. It's complex and intricate, no doubt, so it must have been created, right? But the watch has flaws. Sometimes it misses a tick. It needs to be wound. A gear might snap. It gets dirty occasionally, so it must be polished, lubricated, and fixed. This can be explained because the watchmaker is imperfect. He is imperfect, so he makes an imperfect watch.

Now let's look at the universe. It is much like a watch, with its systems of molecules, dna strands, atoms, particles, etc, all reacting with each other to produce the phenomenon known as the Natural World. But the universe, too, has imperfections. There are parasites, cancers, and diseases. Every so often an RNA strand misses a notch, so the resulting DNA strand is riddled with genetic defects and mutations. Planets might get knocked off their orbits, normal stable chemicals spontaneously react because of tiny undetectable imbalances on a molecular level.

So if an all-powerful and all-good God exists, then why are there imperfections like that? From the "watch" we are given, I would think that the "watchmaker" is chaotic and imperfect, just like the universe he created. Heck, I would think that HP. Lovecraft's description of the impersonal blind-idiot-god Azathoth is a more likely description of the "creation force" than some anthropomorphic father figure who cares specifically about some germs crawling on the tiny cosmic ball of dirt known as the Earth.

Those are my intellectual/scientific reasons for disagreeing with Christianity and theism in general.

As for my philosophical reasons, I will be brief, as most of them have been stated here and can be found in other sources.

1. Christianity and theism teaches us there is a life beyond ours, and that matter is an illusion. This inhibits people from truly appreciating existence. Since the material world is all we have, we should learn to enjoy it.

2. Religious wars and discrimination. While such things will occur without religion, the removal of religion would certainly take one more item off the list of excuses for people to blow each other up, or prevent their offspring from interbreeding with other cultures, or brand any kind of science as "evil".

3. Why should we love our enemies? How does it serve any kind of purpose? To quote the Bible, what we should REALLY do to our enemies is "hate them with a perfect hatred" and remove them utterly from the face of the earth, or at least ignore them.

4. If God, or "goodness" is supposed to ultimately prevail over the universe, then how can that possibly exist alongside the eternal suffering in hell?

5. Jesus had a fairly clean record aside from his naive hippyism and pointless self-sacrifice, but the Old Testament prophets- supposedly "Godly men"- were thoroughly disgusting warmongers, rapists, and architects of genocide. If Moses were alive in 1945, he would have been executed at Nuremburg for all the atrocious things he and his armies did to Canaanite civilians, women, and children. And it was God that told him to do all those things.

This is only a small sample of what I could easily expand into a multi-volume book series, but I'll leave it at this,


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/09 08:08 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#21548 - 03/04/09 08:14 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Thanks for backing my answers up Zebu.

 Quote:
So? Every person has moments of intense psychological euphoria, not just from religious experiences.


Exactly my point (see my post). I would also like to add that people also have their moments of psychological anguish. You can't forget all the people who have claimed to have hellish near death experiences and later turned to Christ out of fear (the dumbest reason). I would also like to point out something brought up in another thread. The chemical (drug if I may) DMT that is released while one is close to death is the reason for many near death experiences. Much like the nature of NDE's, there are some people who suffer from severe delusional disorders (schizophrenia to be more precise). I don't mean to bitch about it but as a sufferer of schizophrenia I can say I've experienced some crazy shit, and at times have believed some pretty crazy things...Luckily I was able to overcome the delusional behavior, but for many, sufferers from the disease have spiritual experiences (good or bad) and will turn to certain religions. These are usually the fanatics and/or the psychos who murder their family because their dog told them it was a good idea. I'm not suggesting that all Christians are crazy...But the ones who have the reacurring delusions or 'spiritual experiences' as some call it may be, and it is more likely if they talk about it. This usually refers to the fact that they don't know that they're insane, an indication that they're delusional and have lost touch with reality.

Like I said, there's an explanation for everything.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#21550 - 03/04/09 08:24 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I stopped reading your mess.

In the end, its simple.

WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
WE DON'T CARE IF YOU BELIEVE US.
WE DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING, YOU CAME HERE.

WE ARE WHO WE ARE, and you are just you.

That's it.

We are not here to test your faith, we are not your enemy.
Your only enemy is the face in the mirror, a reflection of ego and vaniety.

Please go get a life, go help in soup kitchen, feed the poor, donate time to kids in the hospital. Go make a difference in real life, your not making any difference here with this online shit.

Go forth away from here and practice the true values that the christ you believe in taught.

Have a nice day.

Morgan

PS> WOULD SOMEBODY LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD ALREADY......
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#21553 - 03/04/09 08:57 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Morgan]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
Hey Morgan, don't hold back tell us how you really feel... I have to agree with you though. As I had said earlier, I have to wonder why the xians would come here and register. They could probably glean allot more information by being guest lurkers and reading. That way they don't open themselve up to a barrage of critisism.


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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#21557 - 03/04/09 09:35 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Morgan]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
WE DON'T CARE IF YOU BELIEVE US.
WE DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING, YOU CAME HERE.

WE ARE WHO WE ARE, and you are just you.

That's it.

Well said Morgan, short and straight to the point... Funny he believes he was attacked last night in chat... The only sharks that were in chat were the sharks of knowledge and logic...

I myself was amazed at the waste of energy trying to convert this one into one who uses logic, or whatever the hell it was... To all party's involved, whatever floats your boat, whatever helps you sleep at night, no matter your beliefs... As long as whatever beliefs you have do not infringe on mine or my own... I have little time or want to bash or convert anyone...

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#21559 - 03/04/09 11:26 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
You failed to cite any evidence for a big person outside the universe, who has a penchant for miraculously impregnating virgins and getting incredibly pissed off when teenagers masturbate.

Of course, if you pray for faith, your own mind can answer. A desire to believe is a powerful enough psychological reason to override any reason and logic.

Life without blind faith doesn't have to be desperate, empty and meaningless.
The alternative is Stoic realism - face the brutal facts of life (and death) with serenity, and transcend the need to believe in a whitewashed reality. No dogmatic faith, yet still at peace (ataraxia, no fear) with the brutal realities of the world, while engaging like a soldier with the struggles of life.

That, unfortunately, is too difficult to many. Christian faith is the easy way out.


Hope you enjoyed your stay here.


And remember, the great tempter Satan (the symbolic archetype of carnality) will never be far from you, no matter how many layers of paint you add over your carnal nature. Satan will always be with you, like your own shadow, no matter how much you try and drive him away.

You can always call on his name if you get sick of the dogma and rules. Just light a candle and ask Satan to enter your heart and fill you with his power.
Or cower in fear at the very suggestion if that's your thing.

Shemhamforash!

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#21561 - 03/04/09 11:37 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Fish guy, listen, you simply just don't get it.

As Bacchae an Morgan already pointed out, we just don't care.

The argument is not against Christianity, the argument is against arguing with Christians. It is really pointless.

Sure, some people do seem to enjoy this sort of mental masturbation. But, I personally prefer the real thing over masturbation.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#21562 - 03/04/09 11:44 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Paul Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Debyshire, England
I know I shouldn't encourage him but what the heck!

My Main Argument Against Christianity:-

God does not exist.

Next question.

Just because you can't explain the world without resorting to outdated superstitions, doesn't mean I can't.

All of your, so called proofs of existence, merely demonstrate a complete ignorance of modern science. All the answers are there in the real world. You don't have to come here for your answers. Try Wikipedia.

You came here to bolster up your own failing faith. Your early posts reveal you were expecting everyone here to be devil worshiping, demon conjuring heretics. Well we're not.

There was a new TV series here in the UK recently about a catholic exorcist. I watched the first two episodes but it was the usual cliched rubbish. The point is:- the devil and all his works were there for all to see. Possessions, foaming at the mouth, funny eyeballs,...

What you never see is god. No angels, no savior, no god,... Just deluded priests.

That's why you're here isn't it! You're looking for the devil, for Satan. Because if we can give you that, we will have restored your faith in a god you can never directly experience. Alpha & Omega. Light & Dark. Good & Evil. Black & White. God & Satan. Never one without the other. Isn't that the way your philosophy goes.

Tough. There is neither here. Only chaos.

Now go away. It's nearly 5am and I'm tired and irritated, never a good combination.


_________________________
When I'm good I'm good but when I'm bad I'm better!

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#21564 - 03/05/09 12:42 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
So you must have something here and now before it's any good? People put money in banks and buy shared and wait for interest/dividends to accumulate don't they?


Yes, I must have something here now before it’s any good. The money you speak is included in the here and now. People don’t have to wait until they are dead to collect the profits from putting money into CD’S now do they? Apples and oranges my friend.

 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
How does that invalidate Christianity? Just because you don't like God's laws doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


It invalidates it in my mind. That is just an argument against Christianity, which is what you wanted. “God” is a universal negative – can’t be proven or disproven. However, since you are the one to claim his existence the burden of proof would be on you.

 Originally Posted By: Ichtus
I'm not as critical as you so would you provide examples please so I can respond to a particular charge?


Maybe you should start looking at things critically. As per your request here are some example of the contradiction I speak of. Bear in mind there are many, many, more. Have fun:

John, chapter 14, verse 9 says: “he who has seen me (Jesus) has seen the Father.” This would include his mother, disciples, and others. However, the Hebrew bible says “He who has seen the face of God shall die (Exodus 33:20).” (Note: Even today, thousands of Christians claim to have seen Jesus.)

“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:8). Yet, Jesus asserted the contrary; that he “did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword” in Matthew, chapter 10, verse 34.

Romans, chapter 10, verse 13: “For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” But Matthew, chapter 7, verse 21 says “Not everybody who says to me (Jesus), Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom.”

Ecclesiastes 1:4 claims that the earth does abideth forever. In II Peter 3:10, the opposite is stated.

Paul says. “It is shameful for a man to wear his hair long” (I Corinthians 11:14). Glaringly, this is the only way Jesus is ever pictured.

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Regarding Jesus' stepfather, was he Joseph son of Jacob son of Mattan son of Eliezer (Matthew 1:15-16) or Joseph son of Eli son of Mattat son of Levi (Luke 3:23-24)? And how can both sets of genealogical tables validly include Shealtiel and Zerubabbel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27), given that both of these men are descendants of Jeconiah (1 Chronicles 3:16-19), of whom the Hebrew god has said: “No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David or ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22-30)?

See, even though it may be impossible to disprove the existance of "God", we can recognize that the "evidence" in favor of such a belief is severely lacking. Many Xian like to tout the Bible of proof of God's existance, "because it is his word".

Aside from the fact that circular reasoning like that is fallacious it also ironically discredits the very thing it intends to prove. If God is infallible, and the Bible is the word of God, then so too is the Bible infallible. Since the bible is full of so many contradictions then it could mean two things, that God is not infallible or the Bible isn't the word of God. Do you see where this is going?
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#21573 - 03/05/09 05:38 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Since you are so fond of agnostic arguments, I'll let the great Scottish skeptic and ironist David Hume have the last word, written some 260 years ago:

"So that, upon the whole, we may conclude, that the Christian Religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. Mere reason is insufficient to convince us of its veracity: and whoever is moved by Faith to assent to it, is conscious of a continued miracle in his own person, which subverts all the principles of his understanding, and gives him a determination to believe what is most contrary to custom and experience."
(An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Of Miracles [written 1748], closing text, italics mine.)

I'd recommend reading the entire Enquiry.
As my university lecturers were fond of saying - this passage is truly delicious irony.

Have a nice day.

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#21587 - 03/05/09 06:01 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
However, since you are the one to claim his existence the burden of proof would be on you.

I'm not trying to prove that God exists. What I did mention were things to my mind that I would consider to be evidence.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

John, chapter 14, verse 9 says: “he who has seen me (Jesus) has seen the Father.” This would include his mother, disciples, and others. However, the Hebrew bible says “He who has seen the face of God shall die (Exodus 33:20).” (Note: Even today, thousands of Christians claim to have seen Jesus.)

Since the Father is pure spirit, it makes no sense to take Jesus words literally. I can only assume that Jesus was using that phrase to equate Himself with the Father. His words were often a bit cryptic.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:8). Yet, Jesus asserted the contrary; that he “did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword” in Matthew, chapter 10, verse 34.

I take this to mean that Jesus was predicting that His coming would have this effect, not that He wanted there to be strife. He knew some would follow Him and others would resist which would cause friction.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Romans, chapter 10, verse 13: “For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” But Matthew, chapter 7, verse 21 says “Not everybody who says to me (Jesus), Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom.”

The first is talking about a true conversion to Jesus, the 2nd is about a confession without substance i.e. hypocrisy.

See the previous verse:

9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Ecclesiastes 1:4 claims that the earth does abideth forever. In II Peter 3:10, the opposite is stated.

In Ecc, the writer was making the point that life is short compared with the age of the earth. The bible isn't meant to be a scientific book.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Paul says. “It is shameful for a man to wear his hair long” (I Corinthians 11:14). Glaringly, this is the only way Jesus is ever pictured.

We don't actually know what Christ looked like so this is just speculation.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Why does John 8:14 say that: “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true ..." if John 5:31 says “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is not true?”

Context is always important. I think in 5:31, Jesus is acknowledging that His testimony alone can't be true and that it must come from the Father. In 8:14, Jesus means that His testimony is true because it comes from the Father and the same verse goes on to say "for I know whence I came".

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Regarding Jesus' stepfather, was he Joseph son of Jacob son of Mattan son of Eliezer (Matthew 1:15-16) or Joseph son of Eli son of Mattat son of Levi (Luke 3:23-24)? And how can both sets of genealogical tables validly include Shealtiel and Zerubabbel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27), given that both of these men are descendants of Jeconiah (1 Chronicles 3:16-19), of whom the Hebrew god has said: “No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David or ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22-30)?
It's not something I've studied to be honest. I'll have to investigate it.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

See, even though it may be impossible to disprove the existance of "God", we can recognize that the "evidence" in favor of such a belief is severely lacking. Many Xian like to tout the Bible of proof of God's existance, "because it is his word".
I certainly don't claim that the bible proves the existence of God.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21588 - 03/05/09 06:05 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
Ichtus, would your Priest and Pope just shit their vestments if they saw your new Avatar? Bwahahahaha!!!


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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#21589 - 03/05/09 06:08 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Ichtus Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 19
All, I started this thread with in the hope that we might have a mature, intelligent debate. Few of the responses so far have shown either of these qualities. I'll do you all a favour and disappear now.

May God bless you all,
Ichtus.

P.S. Turning my cross upside-down was SO juvenile.
_________________________
1 Cor 3:16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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#21590 - 03/05/09 06:12 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
A parting message for you and your Holy and righteous Roman Catholic Church. Good riddance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EdZ3u5qXQ


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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#21596 - 03/05/09 07:53 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Grandpabeast]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Amazing, how childish and unnecessarily hostile everyone on here has been to our Christian guest.

Ichtus, I'd like to apologize.

But you have to understand, that debates between Christians and LHPers are never fruitful, as both sides tend to be quite happy where they're at. When one starts arguing over minutae, such as specific Bible quotes, the entire discussion falls to pieces in short order. So when you say you want to "understand" Satanists and occultists, you'd have to walk a mile in their shoes first. I believe that most of us here have been in your shoes already, so we have achieved our philopsophical position in life through experience. Mere back-and-forth discussions aren't going to open up any doors of comprehension for you.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#21597 - 03/05/09 07:55 PM Goodbye [Re: Ichtus]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
I don't see your kind of blind faith as representative of maturity or intelligence. Octavius, Nemesis and myself have at least attempted to be civil. I did warn you however not to expect that from most members here. It is a courtesy, not a right - and most members see no reason to be courteous to Christians.

There are other places on the Net where you can debate arguments for and against Christianity. This site is for members on the other side of the fence as yourself. You are/were a guest here.

 Quote:
P.S. Turning my cross upside-down was SO juvenile.

Did it ever occur to you that using a crucifix on a site like this is akin to using a Nazi swastika on a Jewish site?
After all, we are not the ones visiting a Christian site as a guest and flashing a Sigil of Baphomet. Do bear that in mind.

May Satan's blessings be with you, just in case rationality and logic might someday penetrate that thick fog of faith you have hidden yourself in. Then again, one could argue that this world needs its sacrificial lambs.
If you desire to be a non-hypocritical Christian Ichtus, do bear in mind that Christ desires massive sacrifice - even your slow and painful death as a martyr for the greater good.
If you don't like that idea - and don't want to be a hypocrite - THAT is precisely what Satan is for.

Good luck in your travels.

Mequa

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#21599 - 03/05/09 09:00 PM Re: Goodbye [Re: Meq]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
My fellow satanists,
I have to apologize for those here who feel the need to apologize to those, like Ichtus, who support a (current) powerhouse built on child terror, exploitation, mass murder(as opposed to simply saying "piss off" like we were trying to do here), manipulation, perjury, and theft. You owe no sympathy for anything you chose to say here.


Ichtus,
I apologize for nothing. Anything that was said cruel, obscene, or hostile by anyone has my full support. You should be ashamed and embarassed for what you have chosen to stand for. You are weak, and your life meaningless. Be gone with you and good riddance. If this hurts your feelings just remember, jesus loves you;)
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#21600 - 03/05/09 10:09 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Ichtus I wish you no ill will in fact I was the one to first answer your question as simply put as I could with no attitude at all… It took many words for others to get right back to my simple answer… Amusing…

You were told much here even if it was not what you wanted to hear… This particular flaw (weakness) is in many humans no matter what they believe, they get pissed off when they do not hear the answers they want… They then go on about how rude and unintelligent everybody was etc, etc, etc…

I apologize for no one but myself as I am responsible for no one else… As I didn’t say much of anything to you I have nothing to apologize for… I do admit I feel some disgust towards the others that felt the need to apologize to you for anything else than their own actions… Of course their gain is simple they feel above the actions of others it feeds their egos… If that is what they need to feel elite so be it… There are titles for them as well although Satanist may be the wrong one… This is not counting the apology that was clearly sarcasm of course…

See Ichtus humans do not differ greatly no matter which path they follow… To the Roman Catholics elitism is who has the best seat in church, which family wears the nicest clothes, or drives the nicest car… Equally trivial as thinking you are a better Satanist… One may even think it is the same basic human need which fuels both, just different names and symbolism are used…

Now let me point out that if you are catholic you should be fasting for lent… As of yesterday text messaging and other unnecessary use of technology is frowned upon during lent…

Catholics Urge High-Tech Fast for Lent << Click the link…

Enjoy your path…

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (03/05/09 10:20 PM)
Edit Reason: too many edits to point out
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#21601 - 03/05/09 10:20 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: ta2zz]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I don't apologize. I still call him a coward.

His camp is still full of some of the most repugnant miscreants of humanity; bottom feeders, child molesters, thieves, liars... the list goes on. Yet he finds his true calling in trolling the web, trying to debate the undebatable with those for whom he feels morally superior, as if anyone who supports such a cesspool of moral bankruptcy could ever be morally superior to anyone.

Ichtus is a Christian, and I would no more try to convert him than I would try to recruit someone to Satanism. I am a Satanist. I will always hold disdain for those of his sort.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#21603 - 03/05/09 11:00 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Jake999]
Paul Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Debyshire, England
I see nothing to apologize for either.

He left because he couldn't argue his case adequately and I stand by my first post on this topic, he came looking for devils to prove the existence of his god and found none. Neither did he find a bunch of inarticulate head cases easily swayed to the path of "righteousness".

If one or two people were over zealous in their condemnation of his standpoint, well I can't blame them. They might have good reason to be more vitriolic than the rest of us, or they might just have been on a shorter fuse. I found it difficult not to be more aggressive with him myself.

Whilst religion itself might only be responsible for some of the ills of this world. The rest can be blamed on the megalomaniacs, of all denominations, who hijack it's absolute authority to further their own agenda.

In my opinion if you don't believe in god then you find yourself automatically opposed to religion and the religionists who pedal it's message.

I would have argued with him as politely as I could for as long as he liked but in the end his "faith" will always blind him to whatever logic we throw at him.

He's better off gone.
_________________________
When I'm good I'm good but when I'm bad I'm better!

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#21606 - 03/05/09 11:34 PM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I am a Satanist. I will always hold disdain for those of his sort.


Hear hear.

And furthermore, this attitude that we should be somehow 'above' expressing this sort of disdain, this smug 'higher ground' pretentious bullshit that I see coming from so many 'Satanists' really makes me shake my head and sigh.

There is no 'live and let live' or 'respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours'. Christians are never going to respect your beliefs or mine. They are never going to just let you alone. The very nature of their religion commands them to go forth and spread it, like a pestilent thought disease. It's sickening.

We are their enemy by our very existence.

Everything about Satanism stands in direct opposition to everything they stand for. It is an inverted negative mirror image of their backward death worshiping life hating beliefs.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#21609 - 03/06/09 12:21 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Dan_Dread]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I agree with so many of you from Ta2zz, Morgan, Diav, Dan, Nem, Fist and Jake.

To me you are all saying the same thing. We don't care about you christians other than to maybe feel that little bit ahead of the game when it comes to them.

I think the question was fucking stupid to be honest. Arguments against Christianity? What, arguing that it exists (it obviously does), that it's hypocritical and self defeating in those people that are hypocritical and self defeating by nature? Sure, that to me is also pretty obvious. So what exactly does he want to argue about? Whether Christ was real? Or more likely whether God is real? And as Nem did try to point out in his introduction thread, we have had these circular arguments recently with other Christians and they ALWAYS go back to faith.

I don't see any new evidence brought forward on either side, nor did I expect to, cirtainly not from the current God Botherer. Although I guess now he's a Satanist Botherer also, maybe just a bothererererererer.

Have I added anything new? Nah, but Morgan, can you pull Mikey up with your yappy puppy line, that was funny and missed in the mine forum???

Anyway, I just had to say SOMETHING in this thread.
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#21610 - 03/06/09 01:24 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
16yr_questioner Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 2
Honestly, I'm not a christion, but I'm not satanic either, as you might have seen by my name, I'm just 16 and just want to learn about your religion. I'm open to whatever and I do not believe Satanism is the worship of evil gods or whatever most christions believe. I haven't done that much research, but I did find one site that claimed Satanism to be the oldest and first religion. I am not here to critisize any person that follows this religion, I'm just here to learn what I can.

One site I came across, the author claimed that he/she had meditated and personaly spoke to the devil and other gods... Is that possible, is that a different version of this religion, I know this prpbubly sounds like I just want to rev you people up, but I honestly just want to learn!

I'll understand if you delete my account after this so I apologize, but again, I just want to learn... Although I accept your religion as a valid one, others may not, so let me say now, the first step to acceptance is to learn!

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#21611 - 03/06/09 01:28 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Ichtus]
16yr_questioner Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 2
And on the topic of Christianity, they have no religion left, evolution has scientifically been proven, all they have left is Moses and Jesus, and all they did was con people into believing they were blessed by god, they prpbubly bribed their followers.
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#21617 - 03/06/09 03:53 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: 16yr_questioner]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
16YROQ... I'd rather be in the company of those who question reality and spirituality than those who find their reality in dogma and fantasy. Find the answers for yourself and within yourself. IF you ever meet anyone who has all the answers, run as fast as you fucking can because they are full of shit!


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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#21619 - 03/06/09 04:04 AM Re: Arguments against Christianity... [Re: Grandpabeast]
Grandpabeast Offline
member


Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
BTW young man, I found myself living on the streets of Haight/Ashburry in San Francisco when I was your age. (OK, it was the 70's...) Just never give up on believing in yourself and your full potential as an ass kicking human being. You can do anything you want to if you are truly committed to doing so.


Roger.
_________________________
We can't stop here, this is bat country!

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