When talking about magical workings I can't help to hear that low voice with a vision of crossing the Universe between the stars and planets. It pretty much sums it up..

The elements of which you speak which were used in forms of magic were considered to be elemental spirits… So while there is no god in your equation, there are spirits or in your case forces of nature… Seems pretty fucking close or no different to me…

“Nature spirits which include elementals are believed to be various types of beings or spirits which inhabit Nature.”

“Elementals are of a lower type of nature spirit. They are believed to exist as the life force in all living things. They are said to even exist in the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water; the planets, stars, and the signs of the zodiac; and the hours of the day and night.”

Elementals Link

Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…

Can you really call on the power of the elements and believe that you are not calling on an external source of power? How different from asking for god's favor is this? Can you honestly argue that because it has been done for thousands of years it must be correct? Following that train of thought then both you and I are on the wrong path, Jesus is real... Prayer must also be real...

Question everything as a Satanist just not magic as long as it works for you… In fact didn’t Anton say something along the same line about the use of satanic magic? Not to question it as long as it works for you? Sometimes it is easier to fool yourself than others, but a smart man can easily fool you into fooling yourself…

You admit yourself that curses only really work if the person deserves it… Why do you think this is? Could it not be this person’s disposition or actions that make him worthy of the curse itself is not what ensures his demise? Many Satanists admit that ritual is used only to clear the mind, the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity… I would have to argue that even though a Christian prays to god the outcome of clearing the mind is not much different… Except while we may work to achieve what we want a Christian may wait hoping it will be handed to them…

The longer I look the more similar it all becomes… The basic instincts and common emotions that drive the human race are very few, quite disgusting to be a slave to without trying to understand these basics…

No fantastical beings in the sky no fantastical powers to be had…

~T~

I think there is a differnce between prayer and magic, and that is self deceit. The devout church goer will pray and whine about his circumstance, which negates any real results by spreading the desire thin and deluting it. The Satanist or Magician knowing that prayer does no good takes the situation by command.

You said that "the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity…

" In my view, we are not dumping our goals on some external deity, but rather, rid any unwanted negative energies or emotions as in the Destruction Ritual. In the Destruction Ritual this is attained by the symbolic sticking of pins or needles into an effegy. The whole point is for the magician to return to a functional and productive life, and if (even by coincidence) the victim gets ill then so be it and Hail Satan!

There was mention of the Infernal Names and a feeling of empowerment by a poster. I would just like to add that, of course in my workings, the Infernal Names are not viewed as literal beings but as archetypes - reflections of self, whose attributs can be added to the self.

BUT, if by some reason a person undergoes ritual and chooses to believe in the archetypes chosen and it intensifies the ritual, then so be it! If believing that you are in league with demons and it better intensifies your personal workings then by all means indulge in fantasy.

But when it is all said and done the rightful mind would do well to realize that it is just that - fantasy. Within Satanic Ritual there is a bit of paradox concurrent within the rituals: up is down, pleasure is pain, right is wrong, ingnorance bliss, truth lies etc.

By taking command you do mean doing something besides ritual to achieve what you desire yes? Cause if all you do is a ritual and wait you are no different than a person who prays. Also to point out, you have no absolute knowledge that everyone who has ever prayed did so whining with little or diluted desire. This is not fact just your opinion.


I did? I know you cut and pasted my whole post but I fear if you really read it that you fail to comprehend what I really said.

Try rereading and understanding this paragraph shall we?

“Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…” ~ta2zz

Nowhere do I say anything about dumping your goals on an external deity.


I fully understand Satanic magic and ritual and I assure you I have transcended any need for physical ritual and only see alters and such as tools for others who are not as focused. I have met others who follow this path, those who believe that the second half of that little black book is merely for those who still need dogma and filler. Yes I said dogma.

Seriously the need to perform a ritual to gain control of your emotions just oozes weakness to me.

No offence to any who need or use ritual or to those who for an alter use a naked female.


Who, what? Weren’t you directly replying to my above copied post? Wait are you talking about where I said this?

“Can you really call on the power of the elements and believe that you are not calling on an external source of power? How different from asking for god's favor is this?” ~ta2zz


So by all means if praying to The Hulk or if calling on him makes you stronger or gets you results so be it.

You mentioned self-deceit?



Fantasy is best left to children and bedtime stories. There is little room for fantasy beyond entertainment in my reality. If we remember that the rituals were written in a different time for a different mindset than and only then will reality become clear.

~T~

True! And this isn't something "new" or "deceptive." Even in the ancient musty dusties of magical ritual and up to and including some of the iconic "magical societies," it was common to leave out a specific part of a ritual, and that piece of the ritual would be known by those who needed to know it. It was a key/lock type of situation. In essence, "I'll tell you where the treasure IS... it's there and ready for you to take it... when YOU are ready to receive it."

LaVey was simply not handing a loaded weapons to children.

You have your obvious Witches...but then there are Warlocks, Wizards, Druids etc etc. To be a wizard...what makes one a wizard compared to a warlock...or a warlock to a druid besides the obvious alterations in beliefs?