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#22383 - 03/22/09 04:35 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ShadowsAndVapors]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3113
Yes I did, and I must say they have a Satanic way of thinking.
But that doesn't necessarily mean they are.. if they pray to Set they just are modern Egyption mythology worshippers..
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#22384 - 03/22/09 04:36 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ShadowsAndVapors]
ShadowsAndVapors Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Pennsylvania
You know what, I guess I'll leave your misnamed forum that doesn't seem to be about Satanism in general, but a very specific type. I'd suggest changing "community of Satanism..." with "community of LaVeyan Satanism..." to avoid confusion in the future. I will go away and stick with my form of Satanism that was invented before Scientology. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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#22385 - 03/22/09 04:37 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ShadowsAndVapors]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: ShadowsAndVapors
Also, you guys need to keep in mind that Satanism existed before the Satanic Bible was written.


Do you have any proof of this; aside from Christian capaigns of myth making and fear sowing?

 Originally Posted By: ShadowsAndVapors
Also, if you base all of your beliefs on the Satanic Bible you are going against the satanic principle of not conforming. If you take all your beliefs from a book you read then none of it is your own. In essence you don't actually have any beliefs at all.


Well first off I don't think anyone here bases all of their belifes off of TSB, secondly the beliefs Satanists hold are ones they had prior to reading TSB. It is not a how-to manual meant to teach you how to become a Satanist. You either are or you aren't.

What about you? What do you base your beliefs on? Can you really call them your beliefs your own? I'm sure that none of your notions of Satan being a literal being are ones you have come up with on your own.
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#22386 - 03/22/09 04:58 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I think they should really come out with a Satanism for Dumbies book that we can advirtise on here when people first make an account, because I've noticed an overwhelming amount of new members coming on here wishing to have every aspect of Satanism explained to them without reading the Satanic Bible or any piece of satanic literature. Maybe a Satanism for Dumbies book would filter out some of these people? Just a thought.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#22391 - 03/22/09 07:12 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ShadowsAndVapors]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Ever heard of the Church of Seth?


Again, and again I will have to point this out to you people. None of 'satanic' religions that you clowns with black make-up are into existed prior to LaVey. All of them are off-shoots and wannabes.

Again and again I will ask you to CITE a pre-LaVey source for your religion.

Please, please, please, do not go away. You will be offering other young practitioners a valuable lesson.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#22407 - 03/23/09 01:39 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Fist]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
(general response)

Why not explain your own "Theistic Beliefs" in the first place? You put it out there, and then just asked a bunch of questions about "Atheistic Satanism".

As the resident Hall Monitor (sorry) suggested... this is not a place to be "spoon fed" information.

That being said, could you spoon-feed some of us your "version" of "Theistic Satanism"? Dimitri called your bluff - and you didn't show your cards.

Perhaps he wasn't clear? You asked something of the nature of... "why do we identify with an "entity" that personifies "negativity". This, I believe has been made clear. However, your response has been lacking - "Why do you?" And why would you want to "worship" this "evil thing"?

Or if you're done, then you're done. "Don't go away mad... just go away..." - Motley Crue.
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#22438 - 03/23/09 10:15 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ShadowsAndVapors]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Name some Satanists and Satanic groups that existed before the Church of Satan. Please enlighten us.

There is no "confusion". This would be like me trying to tell you to change your own beliefs to "THEISTIC Satanism" instead of just Satanism. Any Satanist insists that HIS version of Satanism is "true Satanism", so trying to tell everyone else to slap the infamous "LaVeyan" or "Modern" or "Theistic" prefix on the label when talking about their own beliefs, is absolutely retarded.

I'm sure you can find some other forum that isn't as polarized, but expecting us to change our own label or opinions because of some misguided sense of semantics isn't going to work.
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#22457 - 03/24/09 03:04 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think a large part of the confusion whether Satanism existed before Lavey or not comes from the 'traditional' prefix. In this case traditional does not imply as in pre-existing before Lavey as it implies Satan as traditionally looked upon, that is, as defined in theistic scriptures, lore and documents. It is not because something is constructed as a scapegoat that it necessarily implies there have been groups following or adoring the scapegoat. On the other hand, if there have been, one can be pretty sure they did their best to remain secret. Persecution in those days was a bit more intense than the level some feel they endure today. So it is in this void that the whole controversy about "did it exist or not" is born. Fact is, lack of evidence should imply a "no" as answer. At least for now. But the very fact that most traditional satanists don't care too much about lack of evidence, if, would they worship an entity/deity/whatevery, makes me assume they aren't too bothered about a lack of evidence in historical writing either.

The closest thing there was to 'real' pre-Laveyan Satanism can be found when looking up "La Voisin" and "Black Mass". This trial defined Satanism as interpreted by others to a large degree but I personally do not think it is good evidence for the reality of satanic groups, underground or not.
Another movement that was defined as satanic was the 19th century artistic one -Baudelaire, Rops...- but it was nothing more than that, artistic.

D.

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#22478 - 03/24/09 03:53 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
As I've stated before, Satanism does have a firm artistic and philosophical tradition.

But "Traditional Satanists" usually self-identify as ascribing to a religious Satanic tradition, which was certainly nonexistent until LaVey's time.

Of course, there's always the "possibility" that there "might" have been a few heretical Christians that sided with Satan, but probably not exclusively in a "religious sense" (ie, some medieval people might have made prayers to Satan and other demons for mundane or malevolent purposes (to bring someone illness, etc), in the same way magicians would use Goetia.) But this is purely hypothetical, and the idea of a person exclusively worshiping Satan is even more ridiculous, and even more so is the idea that this formed the basis of a "religious tradition" that was passed down from ancient times to modernity.
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#22480 - 03/24/09 04:27 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The real question is if it all matters. Sure Trads make up their traditional heritage, not much unlike Rosicrucians or Freemasons. Hell, even Pagans do the same thing, How many neo-druids are there just being so lucky to have that remaining oral tradition making sure they are cut from the right wood. It's a typical religious thing, this urge to be the first or only or true one. God's chosen people; old concept, new packages. Even modern/Laveyan Satanism isn't free of it.

One can ask himself if it would be so bad to be the 2nd version, or maybe the 24th and if it really would make any difference at all.

D.

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#22489 - 03/24/09 10:09 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
It's a typical religious thing, this urge to be the first or only or true one. God's chosen people; old concept, new packages. Even modern/Laveyan Satanism isn't free of it.


Religion is, always has been, and always will be a competition, a race. The one(s) to rack up the most "points", or the first one(s) across the finish line, get the golden prize; in this case "eternal paradise." Those left in the dust get some sort of hell. I find this "every-man-for-himself" view ironic (or, perhaps not ironic, but hypocritical) coming from every major religion which teaches about brotherhood and "loving thy neighbor."

Humans need to attach a hierarchy to every aspect of life. Humans in society have a need to feel superior over something or someone, whether it is financial, intellectual, physical, social, racial, or spiritual superiority, and express disdain for those they judge to be inferior. Chalk it up to an evolutionary principle: natural selection/survival of the fittest. Therefore, it is only natural. Animals in the wild (particularly of the male sex) assert dominance in order to survive; once an animal asserts dominance, he has access to the best food and the most/best breeding partners.

The only problem is that religions reject this natural desire for superiority. The Bible preaches humility, where none truly exists in the human animal. If it does it is illusory at best. The Bible also condemns sexual desire, which is a natural biological impulse, designed to propagate the species.

So does it really matter whether you're first, fifth, fiftieth? On the basic human level, apparently it really, really does.


Edited by Draculesti (03/24/09 10:24 PM)
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#22495 - 03/25/09 01:11 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Perhaps the definitions will change over time...

The LaVeyan followers are mostly "traditionalist"... that is they follow this "Satanism" and its "Traditions" very closely. And can quote "Satanic 'scripture'" on demand.

Most Theistic Satanists I've come across - follow scraps and bits of things they've found, and pile it all together, with a hint of "Wicca", and a smathering of "Demonaltry", all the while believing that they are following some "ancient way". Though mostly, it is of their own design, and a "Modern" concept at that.

Traditional vs. Modern - never made any sense to me.
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#22537 - 03/25/09 04:10 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Draculesti]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Sure religion is a competition, as is philosophy but even when making a choice, the fact remains that looking upon choice from a different perspective might shift it from superb to laughable. There is a duality to everything and although that duality should not stop or hinder us in actually making choices, it should be clear the very choice that is made only makes sense to the one actually making the choice, or others making the same choices.

Now while I do understand that in religion there is this human urge to be god's chosen (first, true) because that position does bring in a reward, no matter how illusionary, I find it peculiar that the same urge is continued in an apparently a-religious concept. When on a path where the sole person of interest -as in opposition with a pure individual, which is by definition meaningless- is the I, in how much does it matter what position one has? It is always true and first and yes, even last. Fifth or fiftieth is rather meaningless unless one is competing on a human interactive level where the pay-off is defined by position, but when it comes to a personal self-interactive level, it loses its value. If one is competing with another to increase his value at a self-level, without any other gain, the word fragility comes to mind.

Mind you, it does not imply there should be no competition or dominance. Even when every choice only makes sense at a personal level, one cannot not make those choices when they are aligned with Will and a natural result of those choices and of Will is always it being at the expense of something or someone else. There can be no progress or change without destruction.

PS: I fully agree with Dave that Modern is becoming all too traditional.

D.

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#22548 - 03/25/09 08:27 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Sigh.


There is no 'modern' or 'traditional'. This is a bifurcation that exists solely to serve those that just can't seem to grasp the concept.

There is Satanism, and then there is everything else.
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#22582 - 03/26/09 12:14 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Oh now I get it; it's like there is only energy and positive or negative is just used by simpletons that don't grasp the concept. Or gay and hetero sex, all the same really.

Remember, limited systems are only there for limited people; it's the only thing they can fully grasp.

D.

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