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#23260 - 04/12/09 04:52 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Meq]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
That's always a possibility, Meq, but as far as I've been able to read, I've never seen any indications of it. Of course, the chances of any of use ever getting close enough to the actual texts to do any real in depth analysis is about as improbable as me ever being elevated to Pope of the Catholic Church!
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#23262 - 04/12/09 05:13 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Book 18 of ANTIQUITIES has had it's authenticity disputed since the 17th century or so. Most historians and scholars admit it is probably either an embellishment on the part of a christian scribes or an outright forgery.
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#23267 - 04/12/09 07:14 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Yeah, Dan. I'm aware of the dispute on its authenticity, but I haven't seen anything that indicates they've found a definitive positive marker on it. The place where Josephus calls Jesus "THE CHRIST" definitely points to some kind of influence.
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#23271 - 04/12/09 07:45 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well...'so called' christ. To me that doesn't acknowledge an invested belief so much as point out there were others calling someone 'christ' at that time. There were many messianic cults, so it doesn't really mean much.

But I suppose it is possible that all the writing is authentic and josephus himself was under the influence of the 'church of god', but I haven't read anything to indicate that.
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#23280 - 04/12/09 09:16 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Jake999]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Well, since Jesus (Yeshua) is the same name as the OT's Joshua - a fitting Messiah's name - and there were a lot of proposed Messiahs or Christs, it is feasible there were multiple "Jesus Christs".

Due to his disgruntlement with the Jewish messiah madness, however, I seriously doubt Josephus himself called any Jesus "The Christ".

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#23286 - 04/13/09 03:14 AM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's name? [Re: Meq]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It is assumed -and probably true- that while copying the works, those nifty little monks added their desires into the new books. After all, how silly of some to forget the greatest of all and how just it would be to add the lacking information for the good of humanity.
Personally I would not trust a lot those monk-ie-s have copied.

There is some controversy about an Arabic version of Flavius work which has the passage written slightly different and more in touch with what the real Josephus would have written. As far as anyone knew the real Josephus.

D.

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#31732 - 11/15/09 04:09 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: Meq]
nocTifer Offline
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Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: Meq
...Josephus ... leaned more towards Plato's philosophy. ...it seems more likely that the two references to Jesus were spurious later additions by the Christian Church.
that is my understanding. the most common source i've seen attested constructing these spurious additions was Eusebius.

I love and collect Jesus stories, and even wrote one, but all of them are fictions. there's some great text on the magical character of at least some of the Jesus stories such as by Morton Smith. Betz's Greek Papyri and Demotic Spells, the Coptic text on Ancient Christian Magic, and Luck's Arcana Mundi can provide a foundation from which to approach the Jesus (Joshua) character as an instructive model or prototype on the order of Gandalf (Olorin) or Merlin (Myrddin). I've certainly used it in this way.

I suppose, given the terminological intersection here, that the Myrddin/Joshua meeting place may constitute a real option as regards Jesus Christ being the Devil's name. both were sired by spirits. both had periods in the wild. both were accused of instructing against societal standards, both of course cast spells and were accused of employing the power of demons to effect their results. but ultimately the Jesus character is once removed from the Devil in that Jesus is said to use Satan's power to do mischievous magic, and the titles or names of the Devil ("Mastema", "Baal", "Satan", "Lucifer", "Ialdabaoth", etc.) do NOT resemble in character those such as "Christ" and "Paraclete" given to the Christian Saviour.


Edited by nocTifer (11/15/09 04:10 PM)
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#31848 - 11/17/09 06:50 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: nocTifer]
Choronzon333 Offline
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Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
As far as Wikipedia, they are not a reliable source to be quoting. You would probably be much better giving passages from the Holy Bible.


There is reference to Jesus being the Morning Star, but as we all know the Bible was written by someone tripping on Acid.


Okay, maybe several people \:\)

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#31852 - 11/17/09 07:25 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: Choronzon333]
Sonsosatan Offline
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Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Lucifer is a former Angel cast out of Heaven, whereas Jesus or the Son of Joseph of Nazareth was the Son of God.
I think that the pedigree of those two situations prevents any cross-over, however, agreed...the magic mushrooms that grow in the wilds of Israel are renown for their affects on the thought centers of the brain. It is without a doubt that the Dan Browns of those ancient days were influenced heavily on opiates.
But unlike Dan Brown, they could write...[humour not intended to insult those followers of Dan Brown novels]
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#31855 - 11/17/09 08:17 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: Sonsosatan]
GillesdeRais Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Why do they consider J. Christ the son of David, and expound upon his genealogy in some gospels as being part of Joseph's lineage? I thought some kind of bizarre ghost impregnated Mary. In that case, male genealogy would be irrelevant. Is this an oversight? Or patriarchy?
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#31856 - 11/17/09 08:29 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: GillesdeRais]
Ankhhape Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 99
Would any of this figure in?

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16,
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

It sounds as if Jesus is Lucifer here?
Has anyone read the Diabolicon? It contains similar references in some respect.

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#31858 - 11/17/09 08:50 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: Ankhhape]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Confusing the Old Testament and the New Testament can be an interesting hobby, as per your citations, but I don't really see how that 'helps me' understand the answer to my question. Maybe I should take more courses describing Christian Apologetics. Oh, wait, I found out that they represented a socially-useful myth. Praise Mithra! ;\)
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#31859 - 11/17/09 08:58 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: GillesdeRais]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Better question: Why concern yourself with such questions? The whole book is bullshit anyway so leave the "baby-daddy" problems to Maury.
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#31864 - 11/17/09 09:33 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: GillesdeRais]
Ankhhape Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 99
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
Confusing the Old Testament and the New Testament can be an interesting hobby, as per your citations, but I don't really see how that 'helps me' understand the answer to my question. Maybe I should take more courses describing Christian Apologetics. Oh, wait, I found out that they represented a socially-useful myth. Praise Mithra! ;\)
Who the hell is responding to your question, I could care less if anything I say 'helps' you. I was responding to the OP (godganesa).

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#31865 - 11/17/09 10:06 PM Re: Is Jesus Christ the Devil's Name? [Re: Ankhhape]
GillesdeRais Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Gee, sorry Ankhhape, I kind of came in on the tail-end there. For a second I thought your post was tendered to bear some relevance to the post before my answer to what I thought was your response. Keep going, you're doing fine. ;\)
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