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#23113 - 04/09/09 11:17 AM Born Not Made
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
As we all (should) know it has been said that a Satanist is “born not made”; but how accurate is that statement? I understand how that believing that adds to the elitist mentality of the Satanist, boosts the ego and even can create a superiority complex in the mind of the Satanist. Hell, I myself have been guilty of regurgitating those words, but the more I think about it the more I disagree.

First off consider the fact that the ideas contained in TSB aren’t really LaVey’s, but rather ones that he took from other people and melded together to create what we now know as Satanism. It has been said that one cannot pick and choose what tenets of satanic dogma to adhere to and still call themselves a Satanist, yet LaVey cherry picked through the philosophical idea of others.

I agree that trying to fit a mold that you will never be able to ludicrous, but I don’t believe it isn’t possible for one to “convert” to Satanism. Isn’t it entirely possible that a person who has lived down trodden in subservience, who has grown tired of feeling powerless, could come across a copy of TSB and upon reading it decide that they want to travel that path instead? I suppose you could make the argument that they were a Satanist the whole time and just needed to be “awakened” to it, but I see no reason why a person shouldn’t be able to make that transformation.
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#23116 - 04/09/09 12:16 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The difference between a born Satanist and a converted one is, in my opinion, that the first experiences an aha-erlebnis when being confronted with the satanic philosophy, while the second experiences a personality shift. It shows that, although it can be beneficial and fine-tune some ideas- the satanic philosophy is rather irrelevant in the lives of born Satanists. Meaning with this, that if they'd never had encountered the satanic philosophy to begin with, they'd still be living satanic lives. This however is not true for the second type; they need the philosophy to become what they were not when beginning.

Born not made.

D.

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#23117 - 04/09/09 12:25 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
A person with a "Slave Mentality" will always be a slave inside. A person who feels the need to rely on a "Higher Being" for their life, will always need that "father figure" to make them feel complete.

With that in mind, an Individual may come across Satanism and decide to investigate it. Usually they find it too hard, not "huggy enough" and leave to go back to a softer version of Xitan. Maybe wicca, or some other type hippy/huggy/feel good shit.

Satanism is hard, its not nice. It pushes you, demands of you, and depending where you live, it will kill you.

We can debate the origin of Satanism, and the philosphy of it, but wheather or not he wrote the book, the fact is some people get it without needing it spoonfed to them. A long ass time ago, I recommended reading the TSB and burning it. That way it was a part of you and you either lived it or you didn't. Its not something to hold onto like the Xitan gospels, its something to be lived.

I was born a Satanist, my actions from childhood prove that. What does that mean to you, nothing. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, I know who I am. Maybe that is simply the basis of it all. Know Thyself. If you know who you are inside, then you know the truth of wheather you are a Satanist or simply not.

Morgan
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#23119 - 04/09/09 12:37 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Morgan]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I am not saying that anyone can just up and decide to become a Satanist but I do believe there are people who can "convert", and without having to have it spoonfed to them.

Indeed there are those who might "try" to be a Satanist and ultimately fail, but at the same time I am sure there are those who can "make" it work for them.
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No gods. No masters.

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#23122 - 04/09/09 12:49 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Diavolo]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Well if one considers it only briefly one can quickly associate the idea of the 'born satanist' to christianity. It is a christian idea that we are all born of sin and require baptism to save us from a Satanic destiny, so to speak. The phrase 'a Satanist is born not made' should be taken figuratively not literaly i.e. a Satanist is so by choice, not by coercion like in mainstream religions. In conclusion it must be understood that there is no such thing as Orthodoxy in Satanism. Any quest for Satanic purity is stupidity and anti-satanic. Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law...rejoice in the flesh, love thy allies and despise your enemies with a whole heart.
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#23125 - 04/09/09 12:59 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Zakary]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think you are confused; one can choose to become a satanist as much as one can choose to become a homosexual. Choice here is only a factor if you are not.
Christianity adheres the idea that we all can become Christians, if only we believe; we all have the potential. Satanism, sadly for most isn't that egalitarian; if you're not born with the potential, you're pretty much fucked. Even if the slave trains himself to become the master, he's still a slave to that what trained him. The master was so by birthright.

D.

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#23129 - 04/09/09 01:40 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
OG MUPPET Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 17
Loc: st/louis Mo.
Satanist for life vs. born again satanist vs. so called "ex-satanist.

Brother "I'D" say couldn't be more right.

Most of us, when we picked up the STB. for the first time,(and started reading) thought to our-selfs "I see were this is going" & I just paid $6.95 for some-thing I could have wrote.

I'd say "satanist are born, not made" is not "the rule". But if I had bet my left teastie 8(.... I'd say most like minded people you'll meet will say "They knew there was something wrong with 99% of the fuck-tards(and the shit they preached) in this world, long before they conceded/called them-selfs satanist" As far as I'm concerned, the word "RULE" is as "worthless a truck load of dead rats, in a tampon factory"( quote from Top secret) Exceptions to most, especially pertaining to human behaver/psyche.

Born again satanist.. No STB required.
How many times have you seen an X-tion loose their faith, just age and observation is enough to kill off their "Gods" slowly,but surly. I embrace thoughts who "fall for grace" with open arms. Welcome to the real world, were every day is gift, that YOU!; have to fight for, and at same time, try to enjoy. If an individual who's blinded by their faith reads/hears a piece of enlightenment(STB etc..),they will most likely (no rules) find it as hard as Chinese math to comprehend.

off topic Atheist and after lifers. "poker" sewage analogy
Every one is playing five card stud, but the after lifer thinks hes playing Texas hold-em, hedging his bet, that the turn and river will complete his full-house, when in reality all he flopped, was a pair of 7s.

The "ex-satanist" I thought once you went black.........

As rear as hens teeth, but the mind is a funny thing. The argument can be made that "their eyes were never open in the first place" I'm thinking there has been Stock-Home S.D. cases that swayed "ones outlook" so drastically, but out side off that..

Never say never.

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#23130 - 04/09/09 01:46 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Diavolo]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
D...you're an interesting man! Satanism isn't egaliterian? I must say you very much lean towards a Newtonian theory of existence. The new Aeon is the Quantum age...the slave can become the master...the Weismann barrier has been broken, predetermination is dead in both the realms of religion and science. We can be both masters of the flesh and the mind. I advise some study of epigenetic theory.
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#23134 - 04/09/09 03:17 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Zakary]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Just because you claim you can become a Master, doesn't mean you know what to do with a whip.

Just because you claim the title of Satanist, doesn't mean it fits.

If you have to plead your case and feel like you have to adapt and defend your position, your not a Satanist.

Its either in you, or its not.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#23136 - 04/09/09 05:24 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
To those that 'get it', others that also 'get it' are easy to spot. Whether this innate quality is due to genetics or early life experience doesn't really matter.

To those that don't, no explanation is required, nor will any explanation ever suffice.

This topic is pointless, and should be moved to 101.


Edited by Dan_Dread (04/09/09 05:25 PM)
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#23137 - 04/09/09 05:49 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
So pointless that you felt the need to comment on it?

Seriously though, Dan, as someone who has championed the phrase "born not made" in numerous posts can add a little more than that. Obviously those who don't get it never will, but I wasn't talking about someone who needed an explanation.

Consider someone who lived their life completely opposite from the one outlined in satanic philospy. I'm talking white lite, feel good hippy who believes eternal hapiness awaits them after their death - the whole nine yards.

Isn't it feasible that they can do a 180 at some point in their life, that they become disillusioned with their faith for whatever reason? Now imagine this person picks up a copy of TSB, even if just by happenstance; and upon reading it has a revelation of sorts, and decides they would much rather live life from a satanic perspective.

If you believe that is possible then "born not made" pretty much loses all relevance.
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No gods. No masters.

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#23140 - 04/09/09 07:11 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I don't. That people try on the Satanic clothes is obvious, just look around. The internet is full of them.

The thing is that it is obvious when the clothes don't fit.

Even if these people might try to be Satanists, adhere to the Satanic Bible, or do 30 rituals a day, it doesn't matter a bit.

It's still obvious who is and who isn't, to those of us that are.

Born, not made.
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#23154 - 04/10/09 09:19 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I’m now (only) more than one year « in Satanism » and (already) start understanding how tired the confirmed Satanists can be by seeing these recurring questions and everlasting discussions that follows.

I’m personally convinced that Satanists are effectively born, not made.

At the same time, I could say I did a 180 at some point in my life.

Is it a paradox? I don’t think so.

My parents were not religious and I was not educated in some religious faith. But my mother educated me in a certain way, under the influence of some values she got from I don’t know where. I was told to be kind. To never hurt othersThat revenge was evil. That I should do what the teacher tells me and later I would have to do the same with the orders coming from my boss....

But now I know that :
 Originally Posted By: TSB
The lie that is known to be a lie is half eradicated, but the lie that even intelligent
persons accept as fact - the lie that has been inculcated in a little child at its mother's
knee - is more dangerous to contend against than a creeping pestilence!


So when my life was pointless and I was looking for “answers” , it’s not surprising I adhere to the Xian bible. First because it was at that time the only alternative to suicide I found and second because I’ve been conditioned for it.

But even in my Xian faith I lived as a Satanist. Always putting everything in question. Always keeping outside any church…
After many years of self questioning with self-integrity and self-honesty, I came to one only logic conclusion for me : or God does not exist or he’s cruel.

But I did this before reading TSB

So I will conclude like this :

1. There are the born Satanists and the others.

2. I find the “know yourself” in many religions and philosophies, this is not specific to Satanism. For instance, Buddhism tells you to find/live your true nature.

3. So, if you’re not a born Satanist and you are self honest and have self integrity and trying to know yourself, probably you will finally realize your true nature, let say the nature of Buddha.

4. And if you’re a born Satanist, you will realize the same, the nature of Satan.

5. Finally, amongst those who are not questioning themselves, I guess there the born Satanists living a Satanic life without knowing it’s Satanism and a mass of fools living a foolish life without knowing it’s foolishness.

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#23157 - 04/10/09 12:47 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Perhaps an easier way of understanding the "born Satanist" idea is to look at it from a known perspective in physics. It's a simple concept, but people seem to want to muddy things up and throw a lot of "what ifs" in there, and it tends mystify the whole thing, when it's simplest to take it to its most common idea.

Simply put, people are like water. They seek their own level, like water. This is to say that people are indeed born with a form of fluidity of thought and action that will eventually level itself to others of the same philosophical and intellectual "density." Think of "being a Satanist" as being at "sea level" of consciousness. Those who are born with the propensity for Satanic thought will seek that level unconsciously and move in their lives in that direction.

Now, like water flowing on the face of the earth, ever trying to reach the sea, it may take a long time for the individual to reach its destination... individual molecules of water don't move from the mouth of the Amazon to the sea instantly either. And indeed, some of those who THINK they are destined for the sea are drawn off along the way. It may take those longer to reach the goal, or they may find that they are, like drops of water, absorbed, consumed by some other need or even evaporated out of the flow.

But just as water cannot change its nature, neither can man. If he is destined to be part of that leveling of consciousness that we relate to as Satanist, he will strive to reach it and contain the elements of that level during the whole of his life. He cannot change his nature, any more than the elements.

Let's get away from thinking along the lines that a Satanist has some invisible stamp on the center of his or her forehead that indicates his personal nature. Certainly, the Satanist is born that way, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he will KNOW it, or that he will even accept it. But his nature will make him BE it by whatever name he chooses to call it.

And that's not to say that it legitimizes anyone out there who simply decides to take the name because they've somehow realized that they're a Satanist. Self delusion is still a factor that must be considered, because while anyone can say that they're a Satanist, as we can readily see around us, far fewer can actually be.
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#23159 - 04/10/09 01:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Jake999]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
And the award goes to....Jake! Great summary.

I equate it to be a race car driver. Some are born with the skills necessary to reach the upper levels and some are not. No matter what type of racing; drag, dirt, roundy round, etc. It takes a special skill to know when to shift, when to brake, when to accelerate, what to change on the car. If you are not born with the abililty to make a snap decision and feel the response of the car, you are going to be beat. If you lack the proper hand-eye-foot response, you are going to be beaten off the line in drag racing. The 1/10th of second you lacked to pull off the line is going to cost you. If you can't read the flow of the traffic ahead of you when trying to work your way around the track in a short track race, you will finish middle of the pack.

Now you can aspire to be a racer. You can read all the books you want, watch all the races, go to all the driving schools. But if you don't have "it", you don't have it. Much like aspiring to be a Satanist. You can read all the books, choose the title, but if you don't have "it", you don't have it. You will finish middle of the pack.

It's easy for those that have "it" to recognize those that want "it". You can't just aspire to be a Satanist. You either are or you aren't. Reading the books, playing the role, "dressing" the part, won't get you to the finish line in first place.
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