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#23113 - 04/09/09 11:17 AM Born Not Made
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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As we all (should) know it has been said that a Satanist is “born not made”; but how accurate is that statement? I understand how that believing that adds to the elitist mentality of the Satanist, boosts the ego and even can create a superiority complex in the mind of the Satanist. Hell, I myself have been guilty of regurgitating those words, but the more I think about it the more I disagree.

First off consider the fact that the ideas contained in TSB aren’t really LaVey’s, but rather ones that he took from other people and melded together to create what we now know as Satanism. It has been said that one cannot pick and choose what tenets of satanic dogma to adhere to and still call themselves a Satanist, yet LaVey cherry picked through the philosophical idea of others.

I agree that trying to fit a mold that you will never be able to ludicrous, but I don’t believe it isn’t possible for one to “convert” to Satanism. Isn’t it entirely possible that a person who has lived down trodden in subservience, who has grown tired of feeling powerless, could come across a copy of TSB and upon reading it decide that they want to travel that path instead? I suppose you could make the argument that they were a Satanist the whole time and just needed to be “awakened” to it, but I see no reason why a person shouldn’t be able to make that transformation.
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#23116 - 04/09/09 12:16 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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The difference between a born Satanist and a converted one is, in my opinion, that the first experiences an aha-erlebnis when being confronted with the satanic philosophy, while the second experiences a personality shift. It shows that, although it can be beneficial and fine-tune some ideas- the satanic philosophy is rather irrelevant in the lives of born Satanists. Meaning with this, that if they'd never had encountered the satanic philosophy to begin with, they'd still be living satanic lives. This however is not true for the second type; they need the philosophy to become what they were not when beginning.

Born not made.

D.

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#23117 - 04/09/09 12:25 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Morgan Offline
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A person with a "Slave Mentality" will always be a slave inside. A person who feels the need to rely on a "Higher Being" for their life, will always need that "father figure" to make them feel complete.

With that in mind, an Individual may come across Satanism and decide to investigate it. Usually they find it too hard, not "huggy enough" and leave to go back to a softer version of Xitan. Maybe wicca, or some other type hippy/huggy/feel good shit.

Satanism is hard, its not nice. It pushes you, demands of you, and depending where you live, it will kill you.

We can debate the origin of Satanism, and the philosphy of it, but wheather or not he wrote the book, the fact is some people get it without needing it spoonfed to them. A long ass time ago, I recommended reading the TSB and burning it. That way it was a part of you and you either lived it or you didn't. Its not something to hold onto like the Xitan gospels, its something to be lived.

I was born a Satanist, my actions from childhood prove that. What does that mean to you, nothing. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, I know who I am. Maybe that is simply the basis of it all. Know Thyself. If you know who you are inside, then you know the truth of wheather you are a Satanist or simply not.

Morgan
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#23119 - 04/09/09 12:37 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Morgan]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I am not saying that anyone can just up and decide to become a Satanist but I do believe there are people who can "convert", and without having to have it spoonfed to them.

Indeed there are those who might "try" to be a Satanist and ultimately fail, but at the same time I am sure there are those who can "make" it work for them.
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#23122 - 04/09/09 12:49 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Diavolo]
Zakary Offline
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Well if one considers it only briefly one can quickly associate the idea of the 'born satanist' to christianity. It is a christian idea that we are all born of sin and require baptism to save us from a Satanic destiny, so to speak. The phrase 'a Satanist is born not made' should be taken figuratively not literaly i.e. a Satanist is so by choice, not by coercion like in mainstream religions. In conclusion it must be understood that there is no such thing as Orthodoxy in Satanism. Any quest for Satanic purity is stupidity and anti-satanic. Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law...rejoice in the flesh, love thy allies and despise your enemies with a whole heart.
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#23125 - 04/09/09 12:59 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Zakary]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think you are confused; one can choose to become a satanist as much as one can choose to become a homosexual. Choice here is only a factor if you are not.
Christianity adheres the idea that we all can become Christians, if only we believe; we all have the potential. Satanism, sadly for most isn't that egalitarian; if you're not born with the potential, you're pretty much fucked. Even if the slave trains himself to become the master, he's still a slave to that what trained him. The master was so by birthright.

D.

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#23129 - 04/09/09 01:40 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
OG MUPPET Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Satanist for life vs. born again satanist vs. so called "ex-satanist.

Brother "I'D" say couldn't be more right.

Most of us, when we picked up the STB. for the first time,(and started reading) thought to our-selfs "I see were this is going" & I just paid $6.95 for some-thing I could have wrote.

I'd say "satanist are born, not made" is not "the rule". But if I had bet my left teastie 8(.... I'd say most like minded people you'll meet will say "They knew there was something wrong with 99% of the fuck-tards(and the shit they preached) in this world, long before they conceded/called them-selfs satanist" As far as I'm concerned, the word "RULE" is as "worthless a truck load of dead rats, in a tampon factory"( quote from Top secret) Exceptions to most, especially pertaining to human behaver/psyche.

Born again satanist.. No STB required.
How many times have you seen an X-tion loose their faith, just age and observation is enough to kill off their "Gods" slowly,but surly. I embrace thoughts who "fall for grace" with open arms. Welcome to the real world, were every day is gift, that YOU!; have to fight for, and at same time, try to enjoy. If an individual who's blinded by their faith reads/hears a piece of enlightenment(STB etc..),they will most likely (no rules) find it as hard as Chinese math to comprehend.

off topic Atheist and after lifers. "poker" sewage analogy
Every one is playing five card stud, but the after lifer thinks hes playing Texas hold-em, hedging his bet, that the turn and river will complete his full-house, when in reality all he flopped, was a pair of 7s.

The "ex-satanist" I thought once you went black.........

As rear as hens teeth, but the mind is a funny thing. The argument can be made that "their eyes were never open in the first place" I'm thinking there has been Stock-Home S.D. cases that swayed "ones outlook" so drastically, but out side off that..

Never say never.

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#23130 - 04/09/09 01:46 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Diavolo]
Zakary Offline
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
D...you're an interesting man! Satanism isn't egaliterian? I must say you very much lean towards a Newtonian theory of existence. The new Aeon is the Quantum age...the slave can become the master...the Weismann barrier has been broken, predetermination is dead in both the realms of religion and science. We can be both masters of the flesh and the mind. I advise some study of epigenetic theory.
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#23134 - 04/09/09 03:17 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Zakary]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Loc: New York City
Just because you claim you can become a Master, doesn't mean you know what to do with a whip.

Just because you claim the title of Satanist, doesn't mean it fits.

If you have to plead your case and feel like you have to adapt and defend your position, your not a Satanist.

Its either in you, or its not.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#23136 - 04/09/09 05:24 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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To those that 'get it', others that also 'get it' are easy to spot. Whether this innate quality is due to genetics or early life experience doesn't really matter.

To those that don't, no explanation is required, nor will any explanation ever suffice.

This topic is pointless, and should be moved to 101.


Edited by Dan_Dread (04/09/09 05:25 PM)
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#23137 - 04/09/09 05:49 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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So pointless that you felt the need to comment on it?

Seriously though, Dan, as someone who has championed the phrase "born not made" in numerous posts can add a little more than that. Obviously those who don't get it never will, but I wasn't talking about someone who needed an explanation.

Consider someone who lived their life completely opposite from the one outlined in satanic philospy. I'm talking white lite, feel good hippy who believes eternal hapiness awaits them after their death - the whole nine yards.

Isn't it feasible that they can do a 180 at some point in their life, that they become disillusioned with their faith for whatever reason? Now imagine this person picks up a copy of TSB, even if just by happenstance; and upon reading it has a revelation of sorts, and decides they would much rather live life from a satanic perspective.

If you believe that is possible then "born not made" pretty much loses all relevance.
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#23140 - 04/09/09 07:11 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I don't. That people try on the Satanic clothes is obvious, just look around. The internet is full of them.

The thing is that it is obvious when the clothes don't fit.

Even if these people might try to be Satanists, adhere to the Satanic Bible, or do 30 rituals a day, it doesn't matter a bit.

It's still obvious who is and who isn't, to those of us that are.

Born, not made.
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#23154 - 04/10/09 09:19 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I’m now (only) more than one year « in Satanism » and (already) start understanding how tired the confirmed Satanists can be by seeing these recurring questions and everlasting discussions that follows.

I’m personally convinced that Satanists are effectively born, not made.

At the same time, I could say I did a 180 at some point in my life.

Is it a paradox? I don’t think so.

My parents were not religious and I was not educated in some religious faith. But my mother educated me in a certain way, under the influence of some values she got from I don’t know where. I was told to be kind. To never hurt othersThat revenge was evil. That I should do what the teacher tells me and later I would have to do the same with the orders coming from my boss....

But now I know that :
 Originally Posted By: TSB
The lie that is known to be a lie is half eradicated, but the lie that even intelligent
persons accept as fact - the lie that has been inculcated in a little child at its mother's
knee - is more dangerous to contend against than a creeping pestilence!


So when my life was pointless and I was looking for “answers” , it’s not surprising I adhere to the Xian bible. First because it was at that time the only alternative to suicide I found and second because I’ve been conditioned for it.

But even in my Xian faith I lived as a Satanist. Always putting everything in question. Always keeping outside any church…
After many years of self questioning with self-integrity and self-honesty, I came to one only logic conclusion for me : or God does not exist or he’s cruel.

But I did this before reading TSB

So I will conclude like this :

1. There are the born Satanists and the others.

2. I find the “know yourself” in many religions and philosophies, this is not specific to Satanism. For instance, Buddhism tells you to find/live your true nature.

3. So, if you’re not a born Satanist and you are self honest and have self integrity and trying to know yourself, probably you will finally realize your true nature, let say the nature of Buddha.

4. And if you’re a born Satanist, you will realize the same, the nature of Satan.

5. Finally, amongst those who are not questioning themselves, I guess there the born Satanists living a Satanic life without knowing it’s Satanism and a mass of fools living a foolish life without knowing it’s foolishness.

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#23157 - 04/10/09 12:47 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Perhaps an easier way of understanding the "born Satanist" idea is to look at it from a known perspective in physics. It's a simple concept, but people seem to want to muddy things up and throw a lot of "what ifs" in there, and it tends mystify the whole thing, when it's simplest to take it to its most common idea.

Simply put, people are like water. They seek their own level, like water. This is to say that people are indeed born with a form of fluidity of thought and action that will eventually level itself to others of the same philosophical and intellectual "density." Think of "being a Satanist" as being at "sea level" of consciousness. Those who are born with the propensity for Satanic thought will seek that level unconsciously and move in their lives in that direction.

Now, like water flowing on the face of the earth, ever trying to reach the sea, it may take a long time for the individual to reach its destination... individual molecules of water don't move from the mouth of the Amazon to the sea instantly either. And indeed, some of those who THINK they are destined for the sea are drawn off along the way. It may take those longer to reach the goal, or they may find that they are, like drops of water, absorbed, consumed by some other need or even evaporated out of the flow.

But just as water cannot change its nature, neither can man. If he is destined to be part of that leveling of consciousness that we relate to as Satanist, he will strive to reach it and contain the elements of that level during the whole of his life. He cannot change his nature, any more than the elements.

Let's get away from thinking along the lines that a Satanist has some invisible stamp on the center of his or her forehead that indicates his personal nature. Certainly, the Satanist is born that way, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he will KNOW it, or that he will even accept it. But his nature will make him BE it by whatever name he chooses to call it.

And that's not to say that it legitimizes anyone out there who simply decides to take the name because they've somehow realized that they're a Satanist. Self delusion is still a factor that must be considered, because while anyone can say that they're a Satanist, as we can readily see around us, far fewer can actually be.
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#23159 - 04/10/09 01:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Jake999]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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And the award goes to....Jake! Great summary.

I equate it to be a race car driver. Some are born with the skills necessary to reach the upper levels and some are not. No matter what type of racing; drag, dirt, roundy round, etc. It takes a special skill to know when to shift, when to brake, when to accelerate, what to change on the car. If you are not born with the abililty to make a snap decision and feel the response of the car, you are going to be beat. If you lack the proper hand-eye-foot response, you are going to be beaten off the line in drag racing. The 1/10th of second you lacked to pull off the line is going to cost you. If you can't read the flow of the traffic ahead of you when trying to work your way around the track in a short track race, you will finish middle of the pack.

Now you can aspire to be a racer. You can read all the books you want, watch all the races, go to all the driving schools. But if you don't have "it", you don't have it. Much like aspiring to be a Satanist. You can read all the books, choose the title, but if you don't have "it", you don't have it. You will finish middle of the pack.

It's easy for those that have "it" to recognize those that want "it". You can't just aspire to be a Satanist. You either are or you aren't. Reading the books, playing the role, "dressing" the part, won't get you to the finish line in first place.
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#23165 - 04/10/09 03:38 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: fakepropht]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Exactly FP!


You can throw a saddle on the old gray mare, but no matter how nice that saddle is; she will never win the Kentucky derby.
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#23186 - 04/10/09 11:28 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
EwanCS Offline
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Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Well...it is a good question, for other folk, but at the end of the day, it has no baring on myself how others are percieved outside my own wee bubble. Or how others look upon myself. But, if I must throw my own hat in (which I must, being as drunk as I am,) I have no fucking clue where I stand within the narrow deffinition of La Vey in this instnace, but then I use his work as a very rough guidline, as with every other philisophical influence in my life. My point being, I have both the Satanic, and the pathetic, slavish elements in my life. But. It has always been the Satanic that has pulled me back from the horrifying excesses of the latter.

I have, at points in my life, been little more than an alcoholic and a drug addict. I did some fucked up stuff while in that mode, selling my bellongings, my dignity with them, every fucking time. When you're that fucked, for that long, the strongest of folk can sink to the bottom of the pile. But every time I hit rock bottom, the imagary, the sentiment always came rushing back to me...and so here I am. Stronger than ever, in spite of all that horrible shite. So, born, made. Dunno where I fit in, and at the end of the day, I really don't care. In my mind, aye, I'm there. Irrespective of whether I use the lable or not.

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#23198 - 04/11/09 05:46 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: EwanCS]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Ok....

You didn't really "bring anything to the table" there. Unless you have something relevant to add I would ask that you do not respond to the things I post. Thank you.
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#23212 - 04/11/09 04:58 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
EwanCS Offline
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Loc: Glasgow, UK
The point I was making is that it is not as black and white as born, not made. Everyone is different, so I find it difficult to difine an entire mindset shared by who know how many, in a single sentence.

And I do believe this is an open forum, I'll post where I like.

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#43964 - 11/02/10 12:22 AM Genetic, Not Intentional? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
nocTifer Offline
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Genetic, Not Intentional // Nov 1 2010 // nocTifer
---
Satanists have attempted, as have Thelemites before them, to latch onto something comparable to Jewish matrilinear inheritance, or things alike to this, by virtue of a 'born, not made' ideology. this competes with 'conversion' options available to expansivist (and at times imperialistic) religion. at points it also begins to sound like it might be possible to identify genetic markers for Satanism, a very odd implication of this stance.

"I'm sorry, Mr. Diabolicus, but your chromosomes indicate that you are not suited to be part of our Infernal Alliance."

"but, I iz born Sathanist! I isz an el33t!!"

"No, Mr. Diabolicus. Your genetic mapping (not to mention your style of communication) indicates that you were born Christian. I'm sorry, but you will have to be baptized within a Protestant denomination instead."

"Dis iz bulshit!!! When did Satanizm get all genetosized??! its fucked!"

"In the 2100s, Mr. Diabolicus, the Church of Satan installed genetic prerequisites to more formally require and affirm that all Satanists were real, rather than merely 'dress-up', self-styled types. Now please go away and leave us to our orgiastic, revived, secret grottos."
---
Arkaotika // Forestville // NW Forested bioregion
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#43965 - 11/02/10 04:11 AM Re: Genetic, Not Intentional? [Re: nocTifer]
XBlackXScorpionX Offline
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Arizona
*I don't know why the spell check program I used went nuts with capital letters. I'm sorry for the eyesore.*

This Post Made Me Stop And Think About My Life For A While.

I've Come To The Conclusion That I Was A Fairly Satanic (Or At Least Amoral) Little Kid.

Then I Was Introduced To This Book Called "the Holy Bible" And For Nearly 2 Decades "god" Loved Me For Who I Was. I Had No Reason To Make Myself Or Anything Else Better.

If You Could Measure The Amount My Life Stagnated In Weight, It Might Amount To Tons.

About A Year Ago, For A Reason Unknown To Me, I Started Moving Forward Again. I Got A Promotion With Tons Of Extra Responsibility, A Thing I'd Grown Afraid Of While I Was Stagnating.

The Quality Of My Life Has Gone Up So Much Since Then, Even If You Include My Horrible Car Accident.

The Satanic Bible (Which I've Only Read Recently, Which I've Only Read Once) Made My Mind Explode. It Described, For The Most Part, How I Was Before And How I Want To Be Now.
It's Message Unlocked That Deviant, Indulgent, Fearless, Happy Little Bastard That I Used To Be.

Was I Born A Satanist? It's Hard To Say And To Me The Point Is Moot Anyway. People Change, I Know Because I Was A Different Person For So Long.

It Doesn't Matter To Me If One Was Born One Way Or If They Discovered It Later. As Long As The "converted" Or "discovered" Or "whatever" Lives It, Loves It, And Owns It To The Best Of Their Ability.

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#86723 - 04/23/14 01:49 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: fakepropht]
inanna Offline
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Registered: 04/05/14
Posts: 7
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I truly believe satanist are born. Speaking for myself being raised in a christian household I had no way of knowing. All I knew was that as I got older I had a lot of questions about everything - why - B'CoS it has always been my nature to question everything and everyone. I knew I was different in terms of my way of thinking and how I saw the world. Needless to say after many years of SUFFERING and traveling on the wrong damn road I decided to get off that path and turn left.

Enough said!

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#86730 - 04/23/14 02:22 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: inanna]
334forwardspin Offline
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Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
I've never bought into the 'born not made' meme very much. My own experience leads me to believe that we are in fact made, by our own choices and experiences. Experiences effect us in a variety of ways, and especially learning new information can impact the way we think, and that includes 'Satanic thinking'.

In a sense, we are who we choose to be. We can even go against our own nature if we wish, perhaps to develop a skill or character trait we like, for whatever reason, and those actions may change us by our own will. I've changed in a variety of ways throughout my life, and just can't really buy into the idea of being 'born not made'.

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#86750 - 04/23/14 11:04 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1143
Loc: San Diego, CA
For the most part I agree with the above statement.

However, there is something to be said for approach, and general behavior. There are certain personality traits that are found in a slim percentage of people. To me that is perception of the world and dealings therein.. amorality being one, and "The ends justify the means" approach being another.

There are many that don't even identify, but act that certain way. For example I was watching "Wolf of Wall Street" and Jordan Belfort strikes me as one of those types. Using what you can to benefit yourself, your inner circle, and fuck all the rest. They are either stepping stones or obstacles.

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#86751 - 04/23/14 11:07 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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Loc: San Diego, CA
I agree the "born not made" is definitely a meme, and when used as such becomes a special card to separate someone from the rest.

However...

There is something to be said for approach, and general behavior. More often than not this approach is innate. There are certain personality traits that are found in a percentage of people. To me that is perception of the world and dealings therein.. amorality being one, and "The ends justify the means" approach being another.

There are many that don't even identify, but act that certain way. For example I was watching "Wolf of Wall Street" and Jordan Belfort strikes me as one of those types. Using what you can to benefit yourself, your inner circle, and fuck all the rest. They are either stepping stones or obstacles.

At mods - an error occurred while posting/editing, please delete first post.



Edited by CanisMachina42 (04/23/14 11:21 PM)

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#86760 - 04/24/14 10:19 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
The phrase has become part of a memeplex but it doesn't mean it's as trivial as a LOLcat. The phrase was used to discern a specific type of essence a person either has or doesn't. It's really that simple.
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#86765 - 04/24/14 11:42 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1143
Loc: San Diego, CA
I definitely understand. It's for those that lack the characteristics that it becomes somewhat trite. You see the question often asked, "when did you become a Satanist?" Someone will invariably answer, "I was born this way." Which may be true, they may have the innate qualities I partially alluded to above, but more often then not they are saying it because they think it legitimizes identity.
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#86766 - 04/24/14 11:50 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
There certainly are personality traits that are found in a percentage of people, and not present in others. However, this does not mean that these traits are 'born' so to speak. Many times, you'll see the people's personality and character traits change, as well as other things. This seems to be what the OP was getting at, that a person may change.

Because of my experience, and what I have seen with other people, I can't logically believe that some people simply have 'damned' genes and can never change, or that some people are 'destine for greatness'(I don't think Satanism automatically makes one 'elite', but you get what I'm saying I'm sure) People rise, and people fall. I believe we are made by our choices, and how we interpret our experiences.

'Born not made' more or less, inflates the ego, for some as a way of believing they have 'elite genes' and that others will never catch them. Theistic Satanists often think this as well, that they were 'chosen by Satan' as they put it. It's sometimes called 'fireborn and clayborn'. Some Christians

This however, does not do it for me. If I were 'born elite', I'd just feel like the benefactor of chance, as I didn't do anything to become this way. For me, there is much more pride in being 'self made'.

So, you could say I like the idea of being 'made' better, which may make me seem biased. However, in my experience evidence does seem to point to much of what we are being made by choice and experience, as I have changed a lot, and seen people change.


Edited by 334forwardspin (04/24/14 11:51 AM)

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#86767 - 04/24/14 11:50 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
but more often then not they are saying it because they think it legitimizes identity.


I get you. I agree, there's gaggles of these posers on every social platform. In the meat world, it's worse. Let me tell you, the people I've met and the shit they try to peddle is just WOW.

Some even think that if they peddle it just right, they can sell that SRA narrative of born in a cave as the spawn of Satan himself. "I was born this way to Father Satan!"

I met this tattoo artist from Alabama (did some work on me) a few years back, he used this story complete with "I have a collection of human skulls" to prove he made human sacrifice. I played along for the shiggles, I wanted to see this collection! Naturally, then came the excuses and 'oaths of secrecy'.

I'm pretty sure he was using it to impress me. I used that, free tattoo ;\)
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#86771 - 04/24/14 12:48 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Scanning for understated mockery, please be patient...

Awaiting results...

Results inconclusive, try again later.

Call myself out here... In the past I have been guilty of "playing to the audience". In my mind I'm thinking "if I make the right impact I will gain some credibility, or respect." In their mind I had already failed, and are subject to any and all subsequent manipulation.


Edited by CanisMachina42 (04/24/14 01:31 PM)

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#86799 - 04/24/14 07:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
Le Deluge Offline
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"Individualism" sells. Subcultures are, in part, a form of commerce. Having said that, I believe LaVey meant what he said. I wouldn't come to these parts looking for cred. This is a conversation ... not one's social life. People will play games. It is a waste of time ... but humans are human. You just have to take it on the rocks.
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#86800 - 04/24/14 08:12 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Meh, it's a disposition - for me it's pretty much an adjective For example - Seth MacFarlane... High priest of the C/S? no, probably not, but does it matter? Nope. It's a world view - it's a disposition - an adjective. It's everything sardonic, tongue-in-cheek, dark humor - it's the Mark Twains, the Andy Kaufmans - it's the legitimate weirdOs... the weirdOs who find things so crazy they just might work simply by opening their goddamned eyes.

It's the ones who need the badge LEAST of all (it sure as fuck ain't the Boy-Scouts) - says the person who is either 2nd or 1st among posters here, yeah, I know... but take away the titles and the leader-board and I'd still post as much - why? because I enjoy writing. It is fun for me.

The satanic isn't something you can earn, it's not something you can buy, it's not something you can blog your way into, and it is definitely not something you can practice. "Did you get your red card? ok then you're definitely a true satanist." "Did you spend months in the woods living like a hobo? ok then you're definitely a true satanist" "did you make rank?"

No.

It's not a high-jump bar. It IS "individualism"... but not "hot-topic" individualism - it is actually sometimes about letting notions of elitism go too. What sets *you* apart cannot be measured. That the I is "other". That "neither fish nor foul" should probably be the most active thread here - all things considered. It's whatever is bohemian, decadent, counter-intuitive - it doesn't end with LaVey or Myatt or whoever, it starts with that and more importantly it starts with that sort of Promethean spark that prompted them to write whatever they wrote to begin with. It's not "what" they wrote - it's whatever was behind "that" they wrote it.

It's kinda self acceptance, but more along the lines of self-assertion.

Whatever that "self" is or represents - so-fucking-be-it!

I am I.

Collectivity has nothing whatsoever to do with it. This - these forums - it's just something these "I"s do to kill time... all it is and all it ever will be - nothing more, nothing less.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/24/14 08:58 PM)
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#86802 - 04/24/14 09:31 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
Le Deluge Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic

The satanic isn't something you can earn, it's not something you can buy, it's not something you can blog your way into, and it is definitely not something you can practice. "Did you get your red card? ok then you're definitely a true satanist." "Did you spend months in the woods living like a hobo? ok then you're definitely a true satanist" "did you make rank?"


Agreed. Was answering whether LaVey meant "Born not made" by definition ... or as a marketing scheme. I believe he saw satanists as born into a way-of-being. LaVey wasn't always on the level, but he believed that to be the case.
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#86804 - 04/24/14 10:03 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Cool - but this whole "born not, made" thing - where exactly does it come from? Unless I over-looked something (and that's possible) between the SB, SR, SW, SN, and SS I don't recall a single reference to that. I *do* however recall a "church of non-joiners" and I *do* know my mind is actually kinda sharp (kinda).

and even if I did happen to over-look a paragraph or whatever... I'm just thinking "who would even bother to assert that???".

Philosophy itself is inherently unnatural... as is holding your pee! or swinging a bo ;\)

You're basically born hapless and helpless just like everyone else - get over it... when you were 2 ya probably couldn't even wipe your own ass where as a 2 year old squirrel never had to.

I would like to see where and when it was *ever* asserted that a satanist is born - not made - as in... who said that, precisely?

Sure, LaVey was not exactly a Tesla, but I think this might very well be a mis-attributed assertion. "born not made"... ffs anyone with eyes can see we're basically tabula rosas here - that doesn't even take a 3 digit IQ to figure out.

So I dunno, man, I think this whole "born not made" thing is a bit over-hyped and it also lacks a back-bone - call me crazy - I think it's a disposition - it can be acquired and it can be innate - either or.



Edited by antikarmatomic (04/24/14 10:10 PM)
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#86805 - 04/24/14 10:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
Le Deluge Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
Cool - but this whole "born not, made" thing - where exactly does it come from? Unless I over-looked something (and that's possible) between the SB, SR, SW, SN, and SS I don't recall a single reference to that. I *do* however recall a "church of non-joiners" and I *do* know my mind is actually kinda sharp (kinda)


Good question. Does anyone have a specific attribution beyond other C/S members? I actually don't offhand. I would not have used that terminology. I've always found the statement "church of non-joiners" to be funny. I believe the statement to be a bit disingenuous.
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#86807 - 04/24/14 11:11 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
I believe the statement to be a bit disingenuous.
if not counter-productive... "you're a unique individual! now join! send me your money - we're looking for a few outstanding individuals" actually - yeah "disingenuous" actually kinda works *mulls this over*

My only criticism of that word it is that it's too... mmm... forgiving(?)... I totally understand the whole "cabal" motif - actually I think that's right - I actually think that's why these forums exist - just a few rare stars with the right weird quirks (alignment) that facilitates communication.

It's a resonance thing (or a boredom thing) - it's not about belonging - that's where it gets weird.

I sorta think the moment you sign up for a red-card you've sorta disqualified your self from whatever it means. It's... mmm... lysosomic(?) a filtering mechanism. Those that are aren't, those that aren't are.

"what's up is down"

Those that "get it" don't buy into it - those that don't "do". Strange times we are living in, no?
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#86808 - 04/24/14 11:27 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
Those that "get it" don't buy into it - those that don't "do".


Something I learned through failure myself was once you've made that conscious effort to "prove your worth" or attain some level of recognition you have proven your lack of worth. That seems to be the fundamental flaw with meaningless vanity plates. All it shows is a desire to belong, which negates the impetus.

No patience for that particluar flaw on this street.

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#86809 - 04/25/14 12:00 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
once you've made that conscious effort to "prove your worth" or attain some level of recognition you have proven your lack of worth


pretty much - that \:\) I wish I had more to contribute to that, but it stands as-is on its own... in short "indubitably"
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#86810 - 04/25/14 01:52 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
Le Deluge Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
Those that "get it" don't buy into it - those that don't "do"


It would seem so. I would add the only relevant judge looks one in the mirror. Discussion and debate is all fine and dandy. Ultimately, one has to take a brutal and honest look each step of the way.
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#86816 - 04/25/14 11:03 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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 Quote:
I would like to see where and when it was *ever* asserted that a satanist is born - not made - as in... who said that, precisely?


The exact quote is: "Satanists are born, not made" and that "[Satanists] have a disease called independence that needs to be recognized just like alcoholism." The source is ambiguous. Various essays published on the CoS Website , cite the same quote (either in part/in full) and I do recall it being used in The Black Flame magazine. Blanche Barton was often citing the quote in her articles and essays. Burton Wolfe fancies himself an expert and he too is infamous for parroting off the same quote.

Who said it first? Speculation that it's a spin on the "Begotten Not Made" from Christian literature (actually raped from Greek philosophy (regarding the godhead) (see: Catholic Interpretation ) .

In other topics the issue of static-self vs. dynamic-self has been discussed ad nauseum;however I'd like to re-state that people don't change, events change. When the shit hits the fan, when the chips are down, we revert back to our core-self no matter what dynamic b.s. is layered on top.

LaVey spoke on this in various writings and interviews. Take The Satanic Witch for example. In the section where he's breaking down the psychology of tapping the core-self of your target. He knew, by observation and intuition, that people don't really change per se. Think about it, how much can you alter your personality-type? Your core reactions? What makes up the 'you' is unique to your experiences, environment, and responses to stimuli.



It hasn't got shit to do with being birthed. 'Born' could be replaced with forged and it mean the same thing. It's not a 'pre-disposition' but it is a disposition that you presence. You can't change yourself into something you're not but you can certainly fake it, act the part, etc. Satanists are already Satanists. So you don't 'join' it, convert to it, or magically change yourself into it. Even if you fake it, all it takes is the right trigger and that mask falls off and your 'true self' is revealed.


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#86819 - 04/25/14 11:45 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
So you don't 'join' it, convert to it, or magically change yourself into it. Even if you fake it, all it takes is the right trigger and that mask falls off and your 'true self' is revealed.


You can certainly try, and try, then try some more. But once that mask is torn to shit no amount of tape, plaster, or articulate rhetoric can hide the flaws. After that crisp breeze blows it off, the best one can hope for is providing amusement for others as they chase it down the street in some vain attempt to recapture validation - which never existed in the first place. This song comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gy8HPSIFXEM

I wrote an essay about this as well...

http://canismachina.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/the-miracle-mile/

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#86821 - 04/25/14 01:59 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
Le Deluge Offline
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@Canis: Nice piece of writing. I would have argued you were placing too much emphasis on "the other" in your response here. I do see what you're saying given the subtext in the story. I saw it happen. It meant less to me as the middle path is not the hard path. As such, it was just an odd phenomena. A rumble down the street.
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#86823 - 04/25/14 02:05 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Absolutely no subtext whatsoever. \:D


Funny.

As an aside, I've always liked that song by Seether.

 Quote:
I can fake with the best of anyone
I can fake with the best of em all
I can fake with the best of anyone
I can fake it all

Who's to know if your soul will fade at all
The one you sold to fool the world
You lost your self-esteem along the way
Yeah


Not to say that the Satanist can't pull a charade for his own ends. Right dog machine?
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#86827 - 04/25/14 02:20 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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I will often view "the satanist" as having pulled a charade with no meaningful ROI. In a case like that, it is more a matter of self-deception. Then again, they may simply not be ends I find of any tangible value.
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#86832 - 04/25/14 08:54 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Online
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 Quote:
Something I learned through failure myself was once you've made that conscious effort to "prove your worth" or attain some level of recognition you have proven your lack of worth. That seems to be the fundamental flaw with meaningless vanity plates. All it shows is a desire to belong, which negates the impetus.


Oh c'mon there are advantages to being a part of a group or being accepted by a group. An occasional pat on the head, hugs and kisses and this overwhelming joy coming from the awareness of the fact that you are a part of the elite, someone special.

Moreover, you need to be loved to feel that you are alive. If you are not loved, you could as well be dead.

This:



vs this:

Fear of Dying

Disclaimer: an inside joke \:\)
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#86834 - 04/25/14 09:23 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Czereda]
Le Deluge Offline
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@Anna: You do see the irony here? I doubt the Prince of Darkness would smile on those who win a battle (bar fight) ... but ultimately gain nothing. The guy with the broken nose is still the bar owner + any valuation of "Satanism" is subjective. If the game is to be scored by the values of the bar owner (numerically), it is an even more fantastic defeat. I am kind of amazed by what I have read today. Alas, I delve into mikkyo.
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#86843 - 04/26/14 06:27 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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There is actually something to being accepted by others, and yeah if you go around thinking "I don't care what others think" you're basically fooling yourself. Humans are social creatures (however distorted the interwebz have made our inherent sociability out to be), and even the most anti-social among us still have needs - some of which are quite trite.

The thing is that, take for example, this forum - I'm not "really" a member... certainly active... but it's not like I sent a couple hundred bucks, answered a questionnaire proving how "elite" I am, and sent it off to Xear(?)... nope... my "belonging" here starts and ends with my participation.

It's not an explicit thing - similarly no one over the age of 6 goes around asking "can we be friends?" - it's something that just happens and just "is".

Same deal.

There are no real formalities involved, you are either satanic or you are not.

To say that you are "born" any sorta way is, yeah, "disingenuous" (it's not the first word I'd use, but it has grown on me) To aspire to "rank" (as mentioned earlier) is a clear sign that you are not.

It's an "is" thing... not an aspiration - hell! There exist some satanic Catholics out there, apparently :p which is as it should be... it's not a religion, it's not a philosophy (though the argument can be made, and it certainly can be both), it's as simple as "getting" a joke - a "ha! I see what you did there"

I just don't think anyone is plucked from the womb with a sense of humor. They do laugh - but these things take refinement and life experience.

So no. "Satanists" are neither born nor made... for the same reason "old hippies never die - they just smell that way" - it's more along the lines of a process - an instantaneous snap-shot of your world-view, a disposition that more or less falls on you.

If you're trying at all you're trying too hard when it comes to things like this - similarly one does just read Rand in the hopes of becoming an Objectivist (or at least I would hope not)

They read Rand because, for however wordy, the underlying themes resonate with them.

I'd say, with that in mind, it is neither born nor made, it is something you pick up - and for the same reason there really are no "born" guitar players.

In short given A (born) or B (made) it is C (none of the above).


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/26/14 06:28 AM)
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#86845 - 04/26/14 06:50 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
I'd say, with that in mind, it is neither born nor made, it is something you pick up - and for the same reason there really are no "born" guitar players.


Anyone can play guitar with enough dedication to practice but most people don't even pick it up. Why do you think that is?
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#86846 - 04/26/14 06:58 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Attraction and affinity - where that comes from mmm... I think it's just something that develops over time. You're not born with it and you don't (or shouldn't) aspire to it either (i.e. I DO play guitar, and I am quite good at it because I simply enjoy doing it... but being the best guitar player on planet Earth does not motivate me - it's just something I do and I enjoy doing it)

I am that I am.
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#86849 - 04/26/14 07:09 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
Attraction and affinity - where that comes from mmm... I think it's just something that develops over time. You're not born with it and you don't (or shouldn't) aspire to it either (i.e. I DO play guitar, and I am quite good at it because I simply enjoy doing it... but being the best guitar player on planet Earth does not motivate me - it's just something I do and I enjoy doing it)

I am that I am.


Again, you're using 'born' as in birthed. If we were to argue the ability, well duh, every person is born with all their pieces and parts in tact, is born with the ability to pick it up and learn it.

That's not what "born not made" means in proper context.

Had you not picked up something very particular, you'd be having this argument on a Christian forum, just sayin'
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#86851 - 04/26/14 07:18 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Again, you're using 'born' as in birthed


mmm yeah, there's a diff?

 Quote:
well duh, every person is born with all their pieces and parts in tact


Seriously? that totally happens? There are no dyslexics and everyone can walk. Right.

 Quote:
That's not what "born not made" means in proper context.


Provide proper context, then. It's 3 words and I've been speaking English for the better part of 3 decades. Just sayin'.
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#86854 - 04/26/14 07:37 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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And I guess my previous post on this you either didn't read, or didn't spend time trying to understand? C'mon, go back a page. Unless Greek Philosophy isn't worth your time...

Yes, there is a difference.

Ummm Language is more than vocabulary words.

Pieces and Parts in tact, to include the Neurological.
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#86856 - 04/26/14 07:58 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Unless Greek Philosophy isn't worth your time
Greek=smart, apparently... fuck Rumi, amiright?

I get your tenacity... but just, nah. It's three monosyllabic words "born not made" I flatly disagree. Simple. The Nicene creed is completely irrelevant.

 Quote:
Ummm Language is more than vocabulary words.
this says nothing. State your case plainly.

Also your whole
 Quote:
Pieces and Parts in tact, to include the Neurological.
thing is just plain silly, and I think you know that.

Actually you haven't really said anything definitively.

I assert that it is, like anything else, acquired - neither born nor forged. It's a disposition that *maybe* causes "us" to gravitate to this sorta thing, but those dispositions amount to only so much accretion.

Do you agree or disagree?


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/26/14 08:03 AM)
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#86858 - 04/26/14 08:13 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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[quote=SIN3]
 Quote:
It hasn't got shit to do with being birthed. 'Born' could be replaced with forged and it mean the same thing. It's not a 'pre-disposition' but it is a disposition that you presence. You can't change yourself into something you're not but you can certainly fake it, act the part, etc. Satanists are already Satanists. So you don't 'join' it, convert to it, or magically change yourself into it. Even if you fake it, all it takes is the right trigger and that mask falls off and your 'true self' is revealed.


In some cases, a person may just be faking it however sometimes a person really may have changed. If what we are is forged through experience, experiences later in life could also change us, and perhaps change us in a way that leads us to 'Satanic thinking'.

Sometimes, you could also change yourself if you wanted to. This could be through self-taught 'conditioning', through practice or other ways. This could be development of a skill, or a trait. Of course, you would have to want to change, but this could happen because you suddenly 'see the light' of something. I've experienced these sort of things before.

Satanic thinking is no exception to this, as my own line of thinking has changed. I used to not have lines of thinking I consider 'Satanic' or feel any connection to the label, but that changed overtime. It's not uncommon for a person's philosophy to change in their teens/20s, or even later in life.

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#86860 - 04/26/14 09:16 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
Not to say that the Satanist can't pull a charade for his own ends.


and...

 Quote:
In a case like that, it is more a matter of self-deception. Then again, they may simply not be ends I find of any tangible value.


It really depends if it is truly a self deception or a means to gain an insight through experience/role playing. You may get a reaction or elicit a certain response you wouldn't have otherwise had. You can then use that for personal gain. Whether it was intentional or not will be left for debate.

 Quote:
Oh c'mon there are advantages to being a part of a group or being accepted by a group. An occasional pat on the head, hugs and kisses and this overwhelming joy coming from the awareness of the fact that you are a part of the elite, someone special.


When it's disingenuous, or the drive is solely superficial the rewards are self defeating. Sure, you may convince yourself you're accepted, but if there is no internal growth or personal knowledge gained it negates the effort. This sort of self deception is never beneficial. It's like taking a loan for a Lexus you cant afford. You may have some inflated sense of self worth from that shiny status symbol, but you're up to your fucking neck in debt and digging yourself deeper.


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#86914 - 04/27/14 09:02 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
 Quote:
Unless Greek Philosophy isn't worth your time
Greek=smart, apparently... fuck Rumi, amiright?


No, nice Strawman though. If you want to understand the context, then you gotta see what LaVey was looking at.

 Quote:


I get your tenacity... but just, nah. It's three monosyllabic words "born not made" I flatly disagree. Simple. The Nicene creed is completely irrelevant.


Sure, you can disagree on the principal of the thing but it's more relevant than you realize.


 Quote:
Ummm Language is more than vocabulary words. this says nothing. State your case plainly.


I did, with all your focus on vocabulary vs. language you missed it.

 Quote:

Also your whole Pieces and Parts in tact, to include the Neurological.thing is just plain silly, and I think you know that.


Perhaps you misunderstood, unless of course you know a quad that plays guitar.

 Quote:

Actually you haven't really said anything definitively.


I have actually, perhaps you might read slower? Just some advice.

 Quote:

I assert that it is, like anything else, acquired - neither born nor forged. It's a disposition that *maybe* causes "us" to gravitate to this sorta thing, but those dispositions amount to only so much accretion.

Do you agree or disagree?


How do you acquire it again? Answer that, and I'll let you know.
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#86915 - 04/27/14 09:06 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Originally Posted By: 334forwardspin



In some cases, a person may just be faking it however sometimes a person really may have changed. If what we are is forged through experience, experiences later in life could also change us, and perhaps change us in a way that leads us to 'Satanic thinking'.


I'd say it were possible, if I haven't personally eye-witnessed so many cases of the reverting back when the chips are down.

 Quote:


Sometimes, you could also change yourself if you wanted to. This could be through self-taught 'conditioning', through practice or other ways. This could be development of a skill, or a trait. Of course, you would have to want to change, but this could happen because you suddenly 'see the light' of something. I've experienced these sort of things before.

Satanic thinking is no exception to this, as my own line of thinking has changed. I used to not have lines of thinking I consider 'Satanic' or feel any connection to the label, but that changed overtime. It's not uncommon for a person's philosophy to change in their teens/20s, or even later in life.



The problem is, you can condition yourself however with other conditions in place, all that dynamic stuff falls off like a shell.

Changing your philosophy on life isn't the same thing as changing your core-self.
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#86931 - 04/27/14 02:20 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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"you missed the point" "you don't get it" "you misunderstood" "context" "just saying" "just some advice" "I'll let you know"...

Make a case plainly - "it's that simple"

 Quote:
How do you acquire it again? Answer that, and I'll let you know.


It's acquired through experience, and this includes one's own literary experience. It's a (heh) Hodge-Podge for some it's criminality, for others it's the macabre, and still others its hacking, or graffiti, or basically hearing whatever you have been told not to do (or cannot do) but doing it anyway.

It's even reading the works of quack doctors and thinking for yourself "hmmm they might be right about a few things" - to some extent acknowledging that one, more often than not, needs an enemy more than friends. Would there be an Isreal were there no Hitler? How "exciting" would the Harry Potter series be with no Voldemort?

Which should one be more thankful for? the demons they've conquered or the angel watching their back? I say the former, but not in any sort of "righteous" sense - one cannot "defeat" what they have summarily dismissed as a matter of "creed" - ya gotta get your hands dirty.

Taoism with more vigor and more "bite".

No one comes out the womb quoting the SB; they don't even know who this Christ is. That's all indoctrination - acquired.

What does happen is that one day you look around and realize that "I am I" and that's where it all starts, and it happens (well at least for me) around 5 or 6 years old. I have volition. I can do (or at least try) whatever the fuck I am so inclined to and from that day forward is where life begins.

The religious implications extend only insofar as I am now apart from what caused all this to happen. One's innocence, in a sense, is no more and "we" become as cancer in establishing an identity.

Devoid of connotations, this is simply how it works. That even something as life affirming as a birthday party contributes to the helium shortage.

That "the best things in life are free" is wrong. Everything comes at a price - it just doesn't always work out in such a way that you're the one paying for it - and that this too is neither good nor bad; but a very useful piece of information to have, and if so inclined "work with" ;\)

That even your individuality comes at a premium. Even the fuel necessary to so much as write this response is brought to you by a myriad of dead cows and suffering. (I am certain there must've been a nail gun involved at some point)

That my shit stinks. Shit stinks. BUT the very first organ to form in the womb IS the asshole. At one point in your life you were nothing BUT an asshole floating in fluid (this is fact - how's that for "core self"?) - most everything else aside from a heart-beat and a pulse is acquired - even the ability to wipe your own ass. (some people still use their left hand for that even in this day in age)

That self-knowledge IS acquired more often than not be taking a good hard stare at the guts of who and what you are.

Often times it is not pleasant.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/27/14 02:52 PM)
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#86955 - 04/28/14 05:51 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Philosophy is a part of the self though, along with interests, approach, world view and everything else.

In the end, I just find it very difficult to believe that a change is impossible. I don't doubt that you've often seen people revert back to old ways, however I have brought lasting change upon myself, and others have done it as well. All you need is some cases of this to show that change is possible. Unlikely perhaps, but possible nonetheless.

Though it may be more common for people to revert back to old ways, I'd attribute that more to a lack of discipline as opposed to conditioning or predispositions that they can never overcome.

Personal discipline could lead to a person not reverting back to the old ways when the chips are down, along with knowledge and experience that can help you 'stay better' when you change ways, improve etc. in whatever way.


Edited by 334forwardspin (04/28/14 05:53 AM)

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#86964 - 04/28/14 11:06 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Quote:
Philosophy is a part of the self though, along with interests, approach, world view and everything else.


Can't say I agree. People can have interests, apply a method of approach and ascribe to a philosophy but I don't think a person is these things. I have ideas, I am not my ideas.
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#86965 - 04/28/14 11:09 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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 Quote:
No one comes out the womb quoting the SB; they don't even know who this Christ is. That's all indoctrination - acquired.


Well no shit Sherlock. One need not even read the SB and be a Satanist. It's redundant at this point. You're still going on about being birthed. When I've plainly described what it is I'm speaking about.
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#86971 - 04/28/14 05:25 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
To those that 'get it', others that also 'get it' are easy to spot. Whether this innate quality is due to genetics or early life experience doesn't really matter.

To those that don't, no explanation is required, nor will any explanation ever suffice.

This topic is pointless, and should be moved to 101.


5 years later and I still stand by this one.

Satanism is just a form. Without the 'essence'(that which is expressed by the form), it is just clothing.

Those that vibe this certain essence and have the capacity to harness it are few and far between, regardless how they choose to package it
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#86972 - 04/28/14 07:18 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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"Kepp digging, Watson" \:D

We all speak our own language, you delineate between born and birthed, and I see no real diff. For you it is relevant, for me it is mincing words *shrugs*. I'm not sure how much I exactly "went on" about it.

and you probably view "it" from a different angle than I do - whatever works *for you* - is key. That you are a mother, I can see where you might actually choose to delineate - that's fine. I just see no reason to be so nit-picky. "A tomato is technically a fruit" "yeah, but who cares? I'm still not going to put one in my Cheerios"

It's also never in a million years occured to me to drag eastern esoteric philosophy into it either... shaktisim stands on its own, but I suppose there are parallels.

Then again I'd never drag civil rights into it either... and some people *totally* make that connection - so this sometimes works both ways.

I might drag Crowley or GWAR into it, Bushido (which, I suppose is Eastern), too - however, as those are the connections I've made - through my own life and literary experiences. These are not your connections, nor are your connections mine. Whatever the author of "The murder of Christ" has to do with Satanism is anyone's guess, but someone made that connection too.

I see a shit-ton "Satanism" in the very MO and stances of Lulzec... (and also a valuable lesson in what can go wrong too but "this is another story and shall be told another time")

I simply do not agree that "satanists" are born, some scientists don't even think that man even has instincts (but I wouldn't go that far)

It's an acquired disposition; that's all I'm saying - even an umbrella-term... like schizophrenia or cancer. There's a few flavors of it, but like all tastes, they are acquired.

Disposition plays a huge factor, but even dispositions are acquired. Point is (and this analogy keeps coming up) - it's not much different than football enthusiasts arguing over the greatest team or martial arts enthusiasts pontificating as to why "their style" is the best.

"You really don't know the nature of tea"

That's my angle. You see it differently. Cool.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/28/14 07:46 PM)
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#86973 - 04/28/14 07:54 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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You're asking questions you don't want answers to - fine, cool. You asked, I answered. You see it differently, I don't expect you to have your LaVey goggles on. You'd have to be a Satanist to see it ;P

Here's a clue Sherlock: μονογενής

Do with it as you will.
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#86975 - 04/28/14 08:01 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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I am not a Satanist, just satanic.

I am literate in a few languages, but Greek isn't one of them (maybe in a few years, depending how hard Russian turns out to be.. Thai is kinda kicking my ass at the moment :/) - I am, however, rather amused that it only took a few posts for "a state your case plainly" to be replied to in Greek :p Or even that we're having THIS long of a discussion over 3 very simple *English* words.

Spoon-feed me and cut to the chase \:D you're saying this something you're born with or no?


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/28/14 08:03 PM)
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#86976 - 04/28/14 08:05 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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Well no kidding.

I'd give you a hint, but stretch them legs Sherlock, we haz a mystery to solve!

I did plainly state it.

You asked who said it first - I provided context

LaVey was using a very specific context of the same premise.

Dread has a point too. 5 years later, either you get it or you don't.

It's not a semantics argument, not in the least.

*shrugs*
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#86977 - 04/28/14 08:08 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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I am asking for your insight - prodding your opinion. Is it something you are born with or not? A yes or no is, not only fine, but the aim here.

I assert that it is just not something you're born with. Pretty plain, however wordy, but bearing in mind that no one is really born with a whole lot going for them - infants are often worse off than baby squirrels in a ton of ways.

The whole born not made thing is an elitist hook, a gimmick, and one that I can't even rightfully attribute to LaVey at all (not that it matters). It's an anomaly and a fallacy - chest thumping at best.

I vote "no, Born not made is not in the least bit accurate" - not so much by definition of what "it" is, but by definition of the human condition itself. If I need to learn Greek to understand better, well, that too would be an acquired thing.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/28/14 08:21 PM)
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#86978 - 04/28/14 08:24 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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I suppose we just differ on that. Personally, I consider those things different aspects of the self, and each of those aspects are a part of one's own individuality. Interests, world view, philosophy, goals, character traits and etc. are different parts of it. I think we agree that those things often change in a person.

I'm interested though, in what you think constitutes the 'self'. Particularly, what it is that you believe to be unchangeable. Are they just traits that come to someone more naturally?


Edited by 334forwardspin (04/28/14 08:26 PM)

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#86979 - 04/28/14 09:06 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
I am asking for your insight - prodding your opinion. Is it something you are born with or not? A yes or no is, not only fine, but the aim here.


Again, you're using 'born' as in a new baby birthed. This isn't the proper context. If you're driving for that? Then you're asking whether infants are predisposed to hold specific innate qualities. Didn't I already answer that like 3 pages back? NO. In Classical Greek, μονογενής has about 6 different contexts - give or take. As I stated previously, it deals in 'becoming' or the godhead (depending on the textual basis). I did state it is a specific disposition but it's not something you convert to, pick up by reading books, or even conditioning. There's something very 'Unique' in the essence of it. It's not Elitist snobbery (do I strike you as that type of person?), it's something apparent that you can sniff out in others. It's been said throughout these pages, that some people believe its in the genes (I don't believe that), or forged through 'Unique' experiences; sure, everyone has experiences. It doesn't make them Satanists or Satanic for having had them.

 Quote:


I assert that it is just not something you're born with. Pretty plain, however wordy, but bearing in mind that no one is really born with a whole lot going for them - infants are often worse off than baby squirrels in a ton of ways.


FFS

 Quote:


The whole born not made thing is an elitist hook, a gimmick, and one that I can't even rightfully attribute to LaVey at all (not that it matters). It's an anomaly and a fallacy - chest thumping at best.


There was a lot of gimmicky type stuff LaVey used as hooks. The 'Born Not Made' stance wasn't one of them. Though, there was a play on that in some of his kitschy advertisements and such ("We're looking for a few outstanding individuals...", etc.) I mean, if you're looking for extraordinary people to add to your social circle, you're not exactly looking to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There is an elitism to it no doubt, (as subjective as that is), what's wrong with that?

 Quote:


I vote "no, Born not made is not in the least bit accurate" - not so much by definition of what "it" is, but by definition of the human condition itself. If I need to learn Greek to understand better, well, that too would be an acquired thing.


Like I said, if Greek philosophy is a waste of your time. Then don't bother. Take it at face value, be a literalist and just let it go already
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#86980 - 04/28/14 09:10 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Originally Posted By: 334forwardspin
I suppose we just differ on that. Personally, I consider those things different aspects of the self, and each of those aspects are a part of one's own individuality. Interests, world view, philosophy, goals, character traits and etc. are different parts of it. I think we agree that those things often change in a person.


Yes, we do (differ on that point) but I do agree these things change like the wind; hence my closing statement that I am not my ideas. Ideas are like passing thoughts, are you your thoughts or do you have thoughts?

 Quote:


I'm interested though, in what you think constitutes the 'self'. Particularly, what it is that you believe to be unchangeable. Are they just traits that come to someone more naturally?


I'd say each person has a core foundation. This thing was built ages ago, I'm sure you have moments when you (the you in your head) doesn't feel much different than you did when you were say, 8 years old (maybe even younger, just an example). The rest is just maturity, dynamic dressing over the static foundation.
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#86981 - 04/28/14 09:27 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
It's not Elitist snobbery (do I strike you as that type of person?)
nah, just tenacious, really - which is not always a bad thing.

I'm all for learning languages, but I only have so many hours to work with - and English is pretty much the standard. If I could learn them all that would be awesome as hell, but I can't and I don't pretend to be THAT smart, plus I'm not Greek - other languages interest me more. It's not a waste of time - just "Pick your battles".

I can Google it, sure, but that's a simple ctrl-C, ctrl-V - GOK if the translation is correct or even what you meant at all "only-begotten"... and even if it is 120% accurate, why wouldn't you say that in English? I can "fake it" it guess, and use Google translate all day, but meh - I too have limits and I am comfortable with them. "It's all Greek to me" \:D

So, ok, we agree - there's no conceivable way it can be born into in a literal sense. The premise is flawed for apparently different reasons. Cool. I just figure if a phrase requires context in a different language, then just state as much in *that* language. If I have to flip through my Farsi Dictionary to read deeper into a seemingly straight-forward assertion; I figure maybe the problem isn't so much me.

It is totally possible that I didn't "get" the "real" intent... but this is the thing with writing - some accountability does weigh on the author. Otherwise ya' end up with threads full of qualifications such as "context", the usual suspects that don't really "say" anything, and rhetorical questions, and well... basically-paper tigers chasing their own tails (just one step short of having their heads fully up their asses - but well on their way to those "ends")

They are definitively not born, and not made either (it's not like a promotion / making rank in the human-race nor a membership card)... just how you have come to view the world and a tacit grasp of how things work, which is acquired. The disposition to seeing it that way is also acquired. If it meant something else... well... just say so.

Speak plainly if you have something to say, otherwise have fun drawing labyrinths - don't blame me for not wanting to dive right into it, though.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/28/14 10:19 PM)
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#86985 - 04/28/14 11:06 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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AK it's more like innate versus learned. No babies throwing up devil's horns just a natural predisposition, a potentiality inside someone if you will.

As for some people not getting it, look at several threads here for examples. People that take each piece of TSB and make it gospel or decide to fight for Satanic rights aren't vibing with the intention.

Anyway, from reading this I think you are being purposefully obtuse for lols.


Edited by FemaleSatan (04/28/14 11:07 PM)
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#86993 - 04/29/14 06:54 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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In some cases though, ideas do stick with a person. Some of my interests/ideas have stuck with me for years. It's all part of experience, eventually you develop interests/ideas that stick with you.

Now that you mention it though, there are actually some things that I may not be able to change even if I tried(not that I'd want to). As an example I'm sort of an 'explorer' by nature, and have been that way since I was a kid. I like to explore a new place not knowing what I'll find. I doubt it's genetic, but I do think it's a disposition I developed somehow, because it seems to be pretty natural. I wouldn't want to change it, but I'm not sure I could anyway.

However, for me Satanism is largely a philosophy, a collection of ideas and ways of thinking. Since in me that philosophy was developed over time, I can't attribute it to a natural disposition or think that Satanists are born not made. I suppose in part, it may depend on what Satanism is to a person.

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#86994 - 04/29/14 07:58 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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I think what people are getting at is Satanic behavior cannot be acquired. Perhaps instead of saying what it is it may be easier to say what it isn't...

People pleasing/mainstream - Why does anyone else matter? This is at the core of why the egalitarian approach espoused by the Satanic Temple is so fucking contradictory to the banner they use for publicity. Fair and equal? Go fuck yourself.

A philosophy - I might take shit for this, but if it is considered a philosophy, then it can be learned by reading a book. It's not as much a way of thinking as it is a way of acting. Reading Zarathustra and agreeing with it doesn't mean shit. Acting in a way that calls bullshit on moral preconceptions without even being aware of Nietzsche is.

To play advocate for a second, It may be genetic. It could actually be born with you. Supposing there really is a "god gene" (VMAT2) that predisposes you to mystical cockamamie bullshit, then maybe there is a genetic aberration in those with heterodox behavior.

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#86998 - 04/29/14 08:51 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: FemaleSatan]
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 Quote:
People that take each piece of TSB and make it gospel or decide to fight for Satanic rights aren't vibing with the intention
True, though they are "vibing" with similar MOs "use the word Satan - that'll get 'm to pay attention me"

 Quote:
Anyway, from reading this I think you are being purposefully obtuse for lols.
not quite for "lols" - I *do* stand behind what I suggest, but more or less "the sake of coversation" - recreational writing, really.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/29/14 08:52 AM)
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#87005 - 04/29/14 10:10 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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Ak, so you must also believe peoples sexual orientations can change. Or peoples intelligence? Can you learn 'athletically gifted'?
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#87009 - 04/29/14 10:29 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic



I can Google it, sure, but that's a simple ctrl-C, ctrl-V - GOK if the translation is correct or even what you meant at all "only-begotten"... and even if it is 120% accurate, why wouldn't you say that in English? I can "fake it" it guess, and use Google translate all day, but meh - I too have limits and I am comfortable with them. "It's all Greek to me" \:D


Because that's not the context I was referring to. The only reason I even mention LaVey at all (not as if his words were Gospel) is to directly address what he meant by that statement (which is often taken out of proper context). As I stated, there's several contexts in Classical Greek. In this particular case, it deals in something very Unique. It's not something you acquire from reading, converting, or slapping a pin to your chest. Anyone can identify with anything, it doesn't change your core.

 Quote:


So, ok, we agree - there's no conceivable way it can be born into in a literal sense. The premise is flawed for apparently different reasons.


Who can say that in an absolute fashion anyway? I'm merely stating that I personally don't believe it's Genetic. Not for nothing, I come from a pretty shallow gene pool, and am so unlike my Kin - Thus 'Begotten' is moot.

 Quote:




Cool. I just figure if a phrase requires context in a different language, then just state as much in *that* language. If I have to flip through my Farsi Dictionary to read deeper into a seemingly straight-forward assertion; I figure maybe the problem isn't so much me.


Look, all I'm saying is that LaVey compressed a metric ton of reading into a brief treatise. You might even call it a 'calling', which is why you might find some of it agreeable (without having to have your mind changed) and disagree with the rest. I mean, who agrees with everyone 100% anyway. There's nothing 'Unique' about that.

 Quote:


It is totally possible that I didn't "get" the "real" intent... but this is the thing with writing - some accountability does weigh on the author.


Ya think? This is why I'd make a terrible guru, I'm not hear to teach you shit. Kick the can around, sure, but I'm not one for spoon-feeding. I'm just chatting you up, nothing more. I don't think LaVey owes you a thing either.

 Quote:



Otherwise ya' end up with threads full of qualifications such as "context", the usual suspects that don't really "say" anything, and rhetorical questions, and well... basically-paper tigers chasing their own tails (just one step short of having their heads fully up their asses - but well on their way to those "ends")


Context is everything. If the usual suspects don't say much it's because we're ripping masks down for fun. Just sayin'

 Quote:


They are definitively not born, and not made either (it's not like a promotion / making rank in the human-race nor a membership card)... [quote]

Definitely huh? Mighty bold of you to say, talk about saying not much of anything. Go head kettle with your bad self! Membership cards ain't got jack to do with it, why are you hung up on that anyway? Ever think it's doing its job on your psyche?

[quote]

just how you have come to view the world and a tacit grasp of how things work, which is acquired. The disposition to seeing it that way is also acquired. If it meant something else... well... just say so.



I have a story. I am not my story. Just as I am not my ideas. Let me ask you this, is this facade you put on for the forum crowd something you acquired or are you disposed to it?

 Quote:


Speak plainly if you have something to say, otherwise have fun drawing labyrinths - don't blame me for not wanting to dive right into it, though.


I'll speak as I so choose, those with eyes to see can detect the devil in the details. No worries though, you're entitled to your view on things. It's stratifying.
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#87023 - 04/29/14 11:49 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
334forwardspin Offline
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Well, people get 'smarter' through experience and studying, learning more about what they study. An athlete may also become a better player at whatever sport through working at it, and many athletes skills are 'made' through superior training methods.

Sure, some people are more 'naturally gifted' academically speaking or may be naturally more athletic, however what one does in life and the body of work will determine their ability later in life.

People can overcome not being as 'genetically blessed' so to speak in many different ways, and usually aren't doomed by their genes.

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#87026 - 04/29/14 12:00 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Quote:
Well, people get 'smarter' through experience and studying, learning more about what they study.


Hmm, so if you study a particular subject for x # of years, it makes you more intelligent? Doesn't intelligence deal in mental capacity?

Do you think people born with intellectual disabilities can somehow study their retardation away? Not to say that they can't find a place within society to function to the best of their abilities but there is no amount of 'learning' that can fix their broken brains. Broken is Broken.
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#87028 - 04/29/14 12:19 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
334forwardspin Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
I think what people are getting at is Satanic behavior cannot be acquired. Perhaps instead of saying what it is it may be easier to say what it isn't...

People pleasing/mainstream - Why does anyone else matter? This is at the core of why the egalitarian approach espoused by the Satanic Temple is so fucking contradictory to the banner they use for publicity. Fair and equal? Go fuck yourself.

A philosophy - I might take shit for this, but if it is considered a philosophy, then it can be learned by reading a book. It's not as much a way of thinking as it is a way of acting. Reading Zarathustra and agreeing with it doesn't mean shit. Acting in a way that calls bullshit on moral preconceptions without even being aware of Nietzsche is.

To play advocate for a second, It may be genetic. It could actually be born with you. Supposing there really is a "god gene" (VMAT2) that predisposes you to mystical cockamamie bullshit, then maybe there is a genetic aberration in those with heterodox behavior.


I know what you mean, you could live by a philosophy without being aware of someone who preaches it. However, living by a philosophy and believing in it often go together. You may read a philosophy and 'see the merit' in it, and then adhere to it. A personal philosophy, as well as approach to life can be developed later in life. People can acquire the way of thinking, as well as choosing to act on it.

As for a 'god gene', I very much doubt that there is one. People often shift between being theistic versus atheistic in life. I suppose that's another way that it depends on what Satanism is to a person. I would argue that pretty much everyone has a natural predisposition to Satanic behavior in some ways, by LaVey's definition. Particularly, the parts about carnal pleasure.

Christian fanatics even are predisposed to embrace carnal desire. They may choose to try and repress it, but they have to work pretty damn hard at it, and still often fail. LaVey mentioned seeing priests sin on Saturday night before preaching on Sunday, and they certainly do. Now, it could be easy to go without intercourse if you 'self pleasure', but they condemn that as well. DD mentioned sexual orientation, and changing one's sexual orientation is another thing they try hard at, and fail. Reparative therapy and what not.

Sexuality and sexual fetishes are one thing that can not be changed no matter how hard you try, however pretty much everyone is predisposed to indulging in those. After all, the fact that carnal pleasure is natural is part of the born again argument that humans are all unworthy skum.

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#87029 - 04/29/14 12:29 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Quote:
Well, people get 'smarter' through experience and studying, learning more about what they study.


Hmm, so if you study a particular subject for x # of years, it makes you more intelligent? Doesn't intelligence deal in mental capacity?

Do you think people born with intellectual disabilities can somehow study their retardation away? Not to say that they can't find a place within society to function to the best of their abilities but there is no amount of 'learning' that can fix their broken brains. Broken is Broken.



True, that's why I threw in usually as there are a few exceptions. The basic point I meant was that while it is true that some are 'naturally' more intelligent than others, however this does not mean people are doomed due to genes.

Perhaps I should have said more knowledgeable instead of smarter, but basically I meant that you can still be successful in an 'academic' field, if you study hard despite maybe not being as naturally intelligent. Even people with intellectual disabilities can find their niche, as you said.

'It's not the size, it's what you do with it'

I personally put more stock into a person's own body of work in life rather than their natural gifts. This is just my own preference, but if I have something just due to a natural gift I just feel lucky as opposed to accomplished.

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#87030 - 04/29/14 12:47 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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Academia is strange in that regard. You can study a subject long enough to achieve the level of 'expert', the 'peer review' aspect of it is having your work challenged by others that also study the same subject. Does it mean they are more intelligent? Nah, it just deals in levels of knowledge and discovery.

Take the field of Egyptology for example, new discoveries are made all the time and the best known 'facts' are then revised.

In terms of surpassing your genes, I think people just adapt in lieu of their mental capacity. If say, you don't have a head for Math, chances are you're studying twice as hard as someone it comes easy to.
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#87034 - 04/29/14 05:04 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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The point here is that people have natural abilities, capacities, and predilictions. This is no different.

What you do with these natural predilictions, even if nothing at all, is neither here nor there.

A person with a car will be able to travel faster than a guy without one. Sure the other guy can get from a to b on foot, but this shit is best understood at a minimum of 60 miles per hour.
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#87041 - 04/29/14 07:55 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
334forwardspin Offline
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@ Dan

Sure, but they often get made to mean more than they are. It seems to often be made into something where some people are 'destine' for either success or failure in a given area, but that simply isn't the case.

I suppose by your metaphor, my point was that the man on foot may be able to get from a to b easier than you think.

@ SIN

In part, it depends on the field. Some fields deal with more 'learned skills' and a natural ability may matter less. It could also come down to 'work smarter, not harder', which is part of adapting in lieu of their genes.

A person may figure out a method that allows them to process information quicker, or perhaps something where they build off what they learn instead of processing a lot of information in bulk. This may allow them to not work themselves to death as much.

'Finding your niche' and a less traveled road comes into play as well. Succeeding because you find a way to use that niche, or by the fact that your tactics and intent/goal are less common.

In Academia, a person may be an 'idiot savant' of sorts, where focusing on one area allows them to become an expert while overall not being all that bright. It goes back to what you said about knowledge and discovery, and your knowledge is based on what you learn through experience as opposed to natural intelligence.

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#87043 - 04/29/14 08:11 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Quote:

@ Dan

Sure, but they often get made to mean more than they are. It seems to often be made into something where some people are 'destine' for either success or failure in a given area, but that simply isn't the case.

Says you.

I would say the exact opposite. In our society these 'natural abilities' and with them 'natural limitations' are marginalized and even demonized. Our society is so very egalitarian that even the mention that poor retarded Tommy can never be a doctor is just...horrible..unspeakable. Gimme a break.

Born a moron, die a moron, and the guy that trips over his own feet will never beat little jimmy superstar for qb1. Likewise, those without 'the stuff' for Satanism will never be Satanists, or even understand what it is. Those without the mettle, or the desire, to challenge themselves and psychologically rape themselves willingly will never do that.

Only a certain type of person, that thinks in a certain way, that views the world in a certain way, can accurately be described to be Satanic or LHP. You can't learn smart, you can't learn athletic, and you can't learn Satanist. The smart person may never write a thesis, the natural athlete might never live up to his potential of becoming the greatest in his sport, and the natural Satanist may never adopt the banner. Yet, nor will the idiot, nor will the uncoordinated lout, and nor can the wannabe Satanist. These won't because they can't, regardless of how they might try.

You might see a world where all are equal and anyone can do anything, but that's pure hollywood.

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#87046 - 04/29/14 09:02 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
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 Quote:
It goes back to what you said about knowledge and discovery, and your knowledge is based on what you learn through experience as opposed to natural intelligence.


Precisely, hence study as you may, it won't make you a 'Satanist'. It would be like throwing on a costume to hide what's inside.
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#87061 - 04/30/14 10:44 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Dan_Dread]
334forwardspin Offline
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I never said ANYONE can do ANYTHING, more so that people can often still achieve high in their craft despite not being 'genetically blessed'.

Sometimes there are limitations, a retarded kid is pretty much guaranteed not to become a doctor. However, a person of say, average intelligence may become one if they apply themselves. Medical students study extremely hard, and even pop pills at night to stay awake to study. If a person of average intelligence puts forth the work, they could make it as a doctor. If they specialize(which most doctors do anyway) they could make a damn good specialist for focusing their attention on one area.

With sports, there some genetic limitations(if you aren't close to 300 or more you won't be an NFL O-Lineman for instance) however genetics can be overcome more than people think. Hard work can play a role, but also superior training methods as well as technique, playing smarts and etc. that can make someone excel in sports despite certain genetic shortcomings. Some areas of sports have more to do with acquired skill and it's easier to overcome a lack of genes, especially when technique is largely involved. Kazushi Sakuraba was known for beating much stronger fighters with his superior technique, for instance. I've seen on several instances people use these things to greatly improve their ability and performance.

With Satanism, in my experience some do indeed change. You mentioned the drive to challenge onself, well at this point in life I do look to challenge myself, and achieve through challenge. However, I used to only look for easy tasks, I changed. As I said, for me Satanism is a philosophy and ideas/approaches of my own I look to adhere to, which can definitely change in a person(and have for me).

Look, I know the person who adapts to overcome genetic limitations is in the minority, but he/she does exist. The difference is, those people persevered and figured out how to overcome it, most people will not do that as it takes a lot of desire and will power. Obviously only a few will reach the 'elite' level of a given field, however my main point is that what one does during their life is what makes the bulk of the difference.

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#87063 - 04/30/14 11:40 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
more so that people can often still achieve high in their craft despite not being 'genetically blessed'.


If I may. I think you're confusing picking up a skill with a person's proclivities.

I understand that you consider it a Philosophy but to me, it's never been THAT.

I often wonder what people are picking up when they read TSB. Do they have their mind's changed from one thing to another? Are people following it like a guide? Is 'Satanism' just doing a philosophy? A swift kick to the head to rattle things up?

Do you think LaVey intended to liberate slaves when he decided to have it published? To help people 'learn' to become Satanists?

Satan takes a holiday!

It's still fun to read threads attempting to de-mystify the use of Yankee Rose.

I use a lot of symbols and phrases that people are not entitled to learn what I mean by them. Sometimes, a Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
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#87067 - 04/30/14 03:00 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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You can not become what you are not, only a caricature. You can, however, become, more so, what you ARE..if you are both intellectually honest with yourself and determined to do so.
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#87082 - 05/01/14 10:12 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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I get that there's a difference, but I was just saying that you can in fact go from shitty to good(or even great) at a particular skill by acquiring or developing it.

I mostly consider it a philosophy, although I am theistic so in part I suppose it's a spirituality for me as well. I'm sure you can see how I wouldn't believe it to be a predisposition if I consider it a philosophy to adhere to, as you have agreed that can change in a person.

With LaVey's intent, I doubt he did intend to rescue anyone. It seems as though he intended to attract people to his organization who already 'got it' so to speak, at least from what he said.

When people read TSB, I imagine there are a variety of different things different readers think. A lot of people will say that they just thought 'huh, that's pretty much what I already do', and I'm sure that's true for some of them. Some actually do use LaVey as a prophet, and the book as a guide for what to try and adhere to. In part, that's why having a book is contradictory to the premise, according to LaVey people would not need the book.

LaVey said 'don't follow me, find your own way', which of course is an ironic statement for anyone to say, though a good piece of advise. That is a conclusion that people can only come to on their own, after all trying to do that because LaVey or anyone else said it defeats the entire purpose. LaVey certainly did attract a lot of people who looked to him as a prophet.


Edited by 334forwardspin (05/01/14 10:13 AM)

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#87085 - 05/01/14 10:45 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
but I was just saying that you can in fact go from shitty to good(or even great) at a particular skill by acquiring or developing it.


Now imagine if that 'skill' was mastering the self, then exoterically expressing it.
 Quote:
although I am theistic so in part I suppose it's a spirituality for me as well. I'm sure you can see how I wouldn't believe it to be a predisposition if I consider it a philosophy to adhere to, as you have agreed that can change in a person.


I'm not the type to get hung-up on semantics. Hermetic principle: As Above, So Below, From Withing, So Without. Tomato/Tomatoe

What is the spirit after all? Ideas change inside a person sure, but can you change your Spirit?

 Quote:
Some actually do use LaVey as a prophet, and the book as a guide for what to try and adhere to. In part, that's why having a book is contradictory to the premise, according to LaVey people would not need the book.


Yeah and I don't need to write either. Don't read my blogs, in fact pay no attention to my posts here. #Nothingtosee. *smirk* Seriously though, I can appreciate his humor and snark which comes through (Exoteric) in all the echoes he left behind. I don't admire it enough to try to achieve LaVey (nor Myatt, Long, Crowley, or any other hack that had a notion to play the Devil's game).


From an observational stand-point, LaVey surrounded himself with dynamic people. Even if he told them to do this and that, if they did it, those folks would be stratified out of his circle of friends. I can relate. It's merely relate-able.


Socially, I can't tell you how many people I've come across that end up adopting my ideas, quoting me, mimic my behavior, my interests, hobbies etc. They say mimicry is the best form of flattery. For me, it only invokes a feeling of dread. Perhaps for some there is a temporary euphoria from being regarded as a Prophet, I'd imagine that quickly wears off. It's absolutely dreadful to see yourself imprinted on another, even worse when you realize you're merely mimicking yourself.
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#87095 - 05/01/14 11:59 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Well, you can learn from ideas in a book, blog or wherever else. At times, I've heard ideas and thought 'huh, not bad' and have figured I could use them in some way, be it helping towards a goal, or even maybe an add on to my philosophy. It's just a way of learning from others, and certainly does have use.

I just meant that according to LaVey, he was advocating something that you either get or don't, and can't acquire. Thus, according to him it would seem you couldn't learn from the book. Though I suppose it could still serve purpose for him if he simply liked to write.

You'd be surprised at just how long the feeling lasts for some, it seems as though many may want to feel that way as long as possible. It's not something I'd personally want to be seen as, however I actually would somewhat take the approach of 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery', mainly because there's little you can do about imitators/pretenders.

I used to work towards my own blog/website, and am thinking of trying it again. Assuming it even gets any attention at all(and if it doesn't, that's fine) I wouldn't want people looking at it as some guide to try and shape their lives around. However, if it happens it happens is the way I see it. Of course, I would laugh greatly at the irony considering the messages in my writings would condemn that, and pretty clearly. This would be someone trying to mimic me, all the while not even knowing the message they look to mimic. Even more ironic would be that they defy the message simply by trying to mimic it, laughable irony right there.


Edited by 334forwardspin (05/01/14 12:00 PM)

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#87096 - 05/01/14 12:23 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Thus, according to him it would seem you couldn't learn from the book. Though I suppose it could still serve purpose for him if he simply liked to write.


You can pick up a skill from a book, every person acquires knowledge and experience every day (for better or worse), can reading a book change your spirit?

Some argue that part of initiation (various mystery schools) is first set off by reading core material. Take Christians for instance, those that don't attend church services typically read the Bible whereas many that attend services don't read the bible at all. The more they read the bible, attend services (or both), the more deeply they delve into a WAY of being. However, it's so often the case that people recover from that WAY and just adopt another (often something similar). There's an attraction to something very specific, the Spirit wants what it wants.

An example would be a person claiming they hate organized religion but then chooses British Traditional Wicca. What's the difference exactly? It's still very much an organized religion. Why not go for something less orthodox?

If at your core you believe in the supernatural, chances are you're going to pick up something based around the supernatural. Not that you couldn't make a go of something else but that's the 'actor', eventually you'll find your way back to something supernatural centered.

You follow?

It's that whole 'Become what you Are' premise (Thus Spake Zarathustra). Will to Power. Why fake it? If say, you believe in a literal Devil, then be the best damn Devil Worshiper you can be.
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#87097 - 05/01/14 01:10 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
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Indeed, miss Jones.

This is the nature of the 'form vs substance' distinction. Many if not most professed "Satanists" still hold all the same abrahamic beliefs and values as those that profess Christianity, or wicca, or to be non-specificly 'spiritual'. This is no more than a change of clothes..a hollow grasp at an identity not their own.

In the case of tst and others using the form as a media slingshot knowingly, I do get it and offer a begrudging respect, but to those duped, unequipt to tell lead from gold, I feel only a mild loathing, like when a fly lands on my sandwich.
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#87119 - 05/03/14 01:15 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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I think I get what you are saying, the difference between a goal/skill, interest or idea versus an overall 'spirit' or approach/mindset, and that for you Satanism is the latter, with the former being more of the 'dressing on the salad'. I do agree that people often simply 'replace the dressing' when they claim to replace the salad, so to speak.

Christianity to Traditional Wicca is a good example, as a way people don't discard a general 'mindset' so to speak in transitioning. They often simply go from looking at the Bible as a guide for life to playing the 'this way is older and is therefore right' game and similar things, simply replacing one 'master' for another. In Satanism, I suppose this would be something like simply looking to be a 'slave to Satan' or look to LaVey as a prophet.

I agree that the simple reading of a book will not change your spirit. However, I don't so much believe that it can never change in a person, as much as I think a person has to come to certain realizations on their own. I think this because it has happened to me. I used to feel the need for external validation, but eventually changed and now I am mostly intrinsically motivated, and follow a 'self styled' path. I never did this because a book told me to(after all, that defeats the point), I just sort of 'saw the light' of that approach overtime.



Edited by 334forwardspin (05/03/14 01:17 PM)

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#87793 - 05/20/14 12:18 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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I came across THIS today, thought you might find it interesting.

 Quote:
This result shows that children don’t think about all moral beliefs in the same way. Rather, children seem to think differently about different types of moral claims.


Think of it in terms of 'Born not Made', and imagine the 'how' in individual children. Born, vs. Birthed into an environment that fosters a way of thinking and behaving.

 Quote:
we’ve been finding that 4- to 6-year-old children distinguish unambiguous moral beliefs from moral beliefs that are more ambiguous. When we present them with disagreements about unambiguous moral beliefs, most children say that only one character can be right. However, when we tell children about ambiguous moral beliefs, they are more likely to respond that both characters can be right.


Age specific or something else?

What if children were told nothing at all and left to their own devices?

Lord of the Flies is a poor example because these children were already exposed to specific factors prior to abandonment.

Tots in pampers are immediately taught to share and not harm their peers by smashing them in the head with a Tonka Truck.

The Baby Lab & Morality

Origins of Cooperation


It's an exploration into the development of reasoning. Why do some comply while others Sail into darkness?
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#87799 - 05/20/14 04:58 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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I think the article is within the margin of error concerning age differences. Birth to 5 are considered the formative years. You'd have to qualify for any childhood trauma. That would skew the results. Beyond that, you might say "Birth+" an early environment that allows the kid to develop. The essences will differ. After 5, you really start seeing some consistency in fundamental traits.
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#87812 - 05/21/14 10:16 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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If memory serves, 0-Age 3 is the window for brain development for language. I'd imagine that also plays a role too.

I find the study of Feral children to be fascinating. If one were to be intellectually honest about it, I'd include a few Feral kids in the mix for observation at least. To see how they interact with other children 'naturally' vs. under instruction.

Even if these kids can't communicate linguistically, there's been some minor success cases with body gestures and facial expressions.

Small children at that age (before age 5) have difficulty communicating a trauma. They tend to act out behaviorally and the 'experts' play the guessing game if the parents can't fill in the gaps with insights. Skewing the results would be an under-statement.

It's basically the stepping stone to later medicating them under a 'diagnosis'. I can't tell you how many kids I've come across being medicated by their parents before age 7. Hyper activity, ADD, or something else.
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#87816 - 05/21/14 12:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Medicating kids early seems exceptionally unwise. I think they could still develop naturally, but they really are affected for life. 3 for language sounds about right. Oddly, some "late speakers" are actually incredibly smart. Overall, I think a lot of who you are may be 3-6? Social science will drive one crazy. I don't think anything is completely innate, but I suspect genetics would add to potentiality.
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#87817 - 05/21/14 12:18 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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I've always enjoyed THIS CLIP, I think it sums up my position rather nicely.

I'd no sooner inherit my Father's 'alcoholic' gene, than I would inherit my Mother's 'Bitch' gene. Why do people still believe genes dictate behavior?

Behavior is Social.

Here's a decent clip on Feral kids and Environment: CLIP
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#87827 - 05/21/14 03:25 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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I don't believe behavior is genetic, but surely we inherit *some* traits. They need not manifest as alcoholism or being a shit. I just wouldn't discount it entirely. What %? Dunno.
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#87830 - 05/21/14 05:29 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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That does allude to some belief. In terms of genetically based traits, I don't believe behavior is among them. Not in the least.

If we inherit anything, it's our ability for mimicry. Children mostly mimic until they come into their own.

You know, in all these years, I still have my Mother's laugh? When I catch a clip of me just having a hearty chuckle, I can pick out what part is 'my' laugh and what is merely mimicry of hers. That's a behavior.
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#87833 - 05/21/14 06:43 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Mimicry is inherent in most infants. I don't think who one is is entirely determined by nature or nurture. Learned behavior is just one element of childhood.
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#87838 - 05/21/14 11:50 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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The Baby Lab & Morality video was particularly interesting, as it seemed to show both 'good' and 'bad' tendencies in children, mixed in. There seems to be a natural sense of 'good' behavior, but also a natural hate for 'the other', and us versus them.

It kind of makes sense, because children are seemingly both more and less 'moral' than adults are. They will threaten to kill their siblings over seemingly very small things, but at the same time will be very bothered by seemingly small things that they believe are wrong.

As for why children may lean one way over another, it's hard to say exactly what may cause that. I've always wondered about what causes Sociopathy in people as well, as it's believed to originated in childhood. Some say it's learned, others say your born with it. It's an intriguing concept, as to what exactly causes this in a person. There are many different types of Sociopaths, with many different psychological aspects to them, so I imagine there are a variety of factors.

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#87839 - 05/22/14 12:07 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
That does allude to some belief. In terms of genetically based traits, I don't believe behavior is among them. Not in the least.

If we inherit anything, it's our ability for mimicry. Children mostly mimic until they come into their own.

You know, in all these years, I still have my Mother's laugh? When I catch a clip of me just having a hearty chuckle, I can pick out what part is 'my' laugh and what is merely mimicry of hers. That's a behavior.


I would agree that behavior is learned over genetic. Mimicry is a sort of 'necessary' thing to learn as a child, until you learn and develop enough to come into your own. I would guess that certain behaviors that are similar to those of one's parents are more so things they 'picked up' and never discarded as opposed to genetic things.

You mentioned alcoholism, which in part is genetic but more in a way that says who is more likely to become an alcoholic as opposed to some certainty. An alcoholic's child may never pick up a beer, or may never drink enough to become an addict. They would just be more likely to become addicted if they engage in binge drinking. The 'bitch' gene you mentioned I imagine is just a choice on how to act as opposed to a gene.

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#87842 - 05/22/14 10:04 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
You mentioned alcoholism, which in part is genetic


In what way? Addiction is a behavior.

Not even the NIH agrees that genetics alone determine alcoholic behavior.
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#87871 - 05/22/14 09:31 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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That's why I said only in part genetic. There are other factors at play, but certain individuals are more 'at risk' to become alcoholics, due to genetics.

Someone without the 'bad genetics' could become an addict still, someone with them may never become one, but the bad genetics may put someone more 'at risk' per se, to become addicted if they get drunk regularly.

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#87874 - 05/22/14 11:13 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 334forwardspin]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Yeah, "addiction is genetic" is nice for AA psychobabble, but has little proof to support it. It is a convenient excuse to blame ones problems on an inherent "allergy", as they like to say, but I think it has very little to do genetics. In my opinion the reason why it "runs in the family" has everything to do with behavior learned through mimicry, conditioning, and character (which only goes as far being prone to careless behavior, but not addiction itself.)
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#87880 - 05/23/14 10:09 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Yeah, "addiction is genetic" is nice for AA psychobabble, but has little proof to support it


THIS.

I don't buy it. Believe me when I say, I have first-hand knowledge in dealing with people prone to addiction. Until proven otherwise, it's a behavior.
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#87882 - 05/23/14 10:25 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Exactly.

As someone who has been to mandated AA meetings I got so sick of hearing the self deception these people convinced themselves to believe.

"I knew growing up with alcoholic parents that I was far more likely to be one myself..."

So right from the get go they're fucked. They planted the seed of "it's beyond my control", and conceded themselves "powerless" to an acquired chemical decency.

"But now that I have asked God to remove my addiction I have... blah blah blah"

No, you replaced chemical dependency with codependency. Congratulations you're now addicted to telling a room full of equally weak minded people how great it is to no longer have the burden of addiction. Now go smoke another cigarette and drink your coffee.

Edit* It seems a contradiction. But I would surmise those prone to addictive behavior are also prone to other self destructive activity and very impulsive by nature. (Having nothing to do with the chemical itself.)


Edited by CanisMachina42 (05/23/14 10:55 AM)

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#87883 - 05/23/14 10:58 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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I think people have heard the rhetoric so long, they just believe it. In essence they've taken a leap of faith.

For example: ASAM defines addiction as follows:

 Quote:
Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors.

Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.


Addiction is a 'disease of brain reward'. Never mind that it starts with habitual behavior, self-conditioning, and thus the reward outweighs the consequences.

Anything can become an addiction: Gambling, Food, Shopping, Sex, Drugs/Alcohol, Exercise, Sports, etc.

Psychology Today uses this definition:

 Quote:

Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, or health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others.


<- Recovering Shop-a-holic.

About 10 years ago, anytime I was mad, stressed or unnerved. I would shop. The negative detriment it actually had was I wasn't addressing what was up with me. Plus, I'd buy all this stuff I didn't actually need. It got to a point where I'd either have to sell it or give it away because I wouldn't have room for it. It could have gotten worse, like hoarding or something. People that become shopping addicts end up going into debt or worse. I didn't allow it to get that bad because it was within my control. I just had to snap out of it and regain control of my behavior.
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#88913 - 06/05/14 07:32 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Vapula Offline
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When trying to answer that question, I considered how we as humans are conditioned by our environment growing up. We learn from our parents, and events that occur in our childhood shape us into the kind of person we turn into.

When someone makes the statement that Satanists are born not made, I think it's ridiculous.

You aren't born with the ability to accept a certain philosophy and apply it to the way you live your life. You learn through experience. While it may be true that people who have experienced certain things could be more prone to becoming a Satanist, I think it's irrational to say that Satanists in general share these qualities.

People adhere to Satanism for a variety of different reasons. You are not born a Satanist. You are born with traits you inherit from your parents. Satanism is not hereditary. To say that Satanists are born not made suggests that it is.

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#88914 - 06/05/14 07:42 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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I see nothing "wrong" with this
 Quote:
Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities,


but I'm, as of late, mulling over how this might be more aptly ascribed to "anxiety", which I think stems from our unique ability to anticipate the future and, since it's a new feature, it spawns some rather strange "quirks"...

i.e. some people toke to take the edge off a pressuring situation... yet a surprising number of people toke to relieve the pressure from a situation that hasn't happened at all yet. In fact most of it's just coping, in a maladaptive way, with things that haven't happened yet - which suggests "anxiety".


Edited by antikarmatomic (06/05/14 07:43 PM)
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#88918 - 06/05/14 09:17 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Vapula]
Fnord Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Vapula

People adhere to Satanism for a variety of different reasons. You are not born a Satanist. You are born with traits you inherit from your parents. Satanism is not hereditary. To say that Satanists are born not made suggests that it is.


You're close. Satanism is something that one is born to understand (or not).

One of my personal heroes, Robert Anton Wilson, discusses this in his talk about Reality Tunnels.

Some have the reality tunnel to be able to grok Satanism. Most do not. In this way, one is born into it.


Edited by Fnord (06/05/14 09:17 PM)
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#88919 - 06/05/14 09:25 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Fnord]
Vapula Offline
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Wow that was interesting. But who's to say that reality tunnels aren't acquired from personal experience?
Read This

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#88941 - 06/06/14 11:08 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
I see nothing "wrong" with this
 Quote:
Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities,


but I'm, as of late, mulling over how this might be more aptly ascribed to "anxiety", which I think stems from our unique ability to anticipate the future and, since it's a new feature, it spawns some rather strange "quirks"...

i.e. some people toke to take the edge off a pressuring situation... yet a surprising number of people toke to relieve the pressure from a situation that hasn't happened at all yet. In fact most of it's just coping, in a maladaptive way, with things that haven't happened yet - which suggests "anxiety".



Still, it's a behavior. To say it's genetic or beyond your control is a cop-out. Even worse, calling it a 'disease' as if it's like Cancer is b.s.

Kids aren't born alcoholics, they develop into alcoholics with specific behavioral patterns. No matter what the 'cause' one points to (anxiety included).
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#88950 - 06/06/14 01:16 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Balcombe Offline
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Nothing like having a group of parrots tell you that you have a problem, and sure enough, that they have the best cure for you. Say, this gimmick sounds familiar!

A smidge of god here, a dallop of nomian ideology there, some prayer, and shazaam! Your disease is arrested.

Delusions are powerful drugs - whether it's arresting alcoholism, killing in the name of gods, or arguing on an internet forum, I have no doubt about the power of belief.

AA was one more group, one more herd, one more set of answers to be cast aside. Whether it was them, the CoS, or the Christian Ministry, anyone handing me one more construct and prefabricated belief system to adhere to has been the enemy.

Time to flip the channel, see who has the answers now. Till death do I fucking part.

As far as the original topic goes, this sort of reminds me of the "just another animal" statement, and I'm amused how some people are so mystified about this. As for my own experience, I remember being in Public School Religion (PSR), which was a once a week Catholic School for families who couldn't afford the whole thing. My step-mom enrolled me, and while I was in there, I spent my time drawing penises on the Jesus comic books they made us read, pissing in the teacher's desks, and stealing books and bibles from other classrooms and throwing them in the dumpster. Though young, it wasn't wanton destruction or abstract protest. I didn't exactly have the words for it, or knowledge of the path I was on, but it was a deep down understanding that quite simply: This. Is. Total. Bullshit.

Worth noting, I followed it through to baptism. It was some water over my head, and the pay off was a new CD player. My step mom was generous like that. It was a simple selfishness. I learned early my parents didn't give a shit about my thoughts or feelings, and I picked it up quick that if I don't take care of myself and my needs in such a manner, no one else will, and I aint gettin shit in this world. This attitude has kept me well-paid for many years now.
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#88956 - 06/06/14 04:24 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Balcombe]
Le Deluge Offline
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AA has all the trappings of a cult. It kind of amazed me how folks would just reiterate the Blue Book when met with real life situations. In all seriousness, The "Serenity Prayer" is a fount of wisdom compared to how the organization operates beyond that. Bit of sign that that folks are replacing liquor with some bizarre indoctrination.
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#88964 - 06/06/14 06:10 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
To say it's genetic or beyond your control is a cop-out. Even worse, calling it a 'disease' as if it's like Cancer is b.s.
heh "I like turtles"

me too! but err... that's not quite where I was going with that.

What are the causes of such maladaptive behaviors? What role does anxiety play? (not, like "Anxiety disorders", but anxiety or better stated "anxiousness" broadly)
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#88992 - 06/07/14 10:57 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: antikarmatomic]
NightmareMachine Offline
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Current scientific research has provided mountains of evidence on the influence of DNA on such things as personality, addictions and such. But to say that one is hardwired for such things is taking it a step too far in my opinion.

I think your DNA gives a predilection toward certain behaviors and traits, but does not lock them into such.

The reason I hold this position, is simply that I am very different than my parents. They had plenty of self-destructive behaviors and beliefs that they insisted they could not break. I saw myself going down those same roads and decided I did not want to be like them, and endeavored to make a model of what I wanted to be, and proceeded to make myself like that. It worked. If I was hardwired, rather than just have a predilection toward those behaviors, I would not have been able to break that cycle.

So, as with many things, I think the extreme on either end of this argument are wrong, and the answer lies in the middle of it being a combination of genetic predilections, upbringig and conscious growth.

ETA: this was not aimed at you, antikarmatomic, I just used the quick reply.


Edited by NightmareMachine (06/07/14 10:58 AM)

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#89033 - 06/07/14 09:48 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Vapula]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 413
 Originally Posted By: Vapula
When someone makes the statement that Satanists are born not made, I think it's ridiculous.

You aren't born with the ability to accept a certain philosophy and apply it to the way you live your life. You learn through experience. While it may be true that people who have experienced certain things could be more prone to becoming a Satanist, I think it's irrational to say that Satanists in general share these qualities.



I do not think that Anton LaVey was being ridiculous at all when he made that remark.

You are born who you are. At early development society is out to condition you, it does not mean that you will adhere to the conditioning. The rebellious teenager comes to mind.

Likewise, there are people who in no way were born into a culture that shaped what they did. Fakir Musafar certainly did not grow up in an environment with people poking holes in themselves and modifying their bodies.

At some points, it may be beneficial to conform, jobs, parents, or in some cases a spouse. No less, at the end of the day, your true nature wills out and you cannot run from what you are.

Unless you are young enough to have parents involved in Saranism or the occult, I do not think that most people came to TSB with a prior socially conditioning towards Satanism. Those that I have encountered, including myself can't really give you a past history of Satanism. All that I can do is tell you that I read the book and realized that it more or less described me.

By accepting yourself as a Satanist, it is not an easy road at all. We do not have any lobby groups and good luck in finding a non Satanist to come to our defense. Unlike other groups of people that have these kinds of groups, a Satanist can holler discrimination all that he wants and will likely here an echo. So we must be fiercely independent.

I say this to illustrate that while some youngsters may do it for shock value, those who stay with it for years, the true Satanists, do so because to do otherwise would foolishly deny ourselves.

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#89241 - 06/10/14 03:20 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: LoneWolf78]
Doomsage680 Offline
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As Jake said, it may take water years to find its level, but it ultimately will. Even when I was in Catholic school I remember staunchly believing that revenge was just another word for justice, and that turning the other cheek was just wrong.

I remember always questioning things in the Bible in regards to Satan, which were probably my baby-steps towards ultimately rejecting Christianity and moving towards theistic Satanism.

Even having read TSB and learning as much as I could I still wasn't satisfied with my understanding of Satanism and theism. It was this forum that led me to reject theism and become an atheistic Satanist.

I'm still not sure as to whether I would be considered a LaVeyan Satanist by other Satanists; it's how I identify to people unfamiliar with the ideas, but as to how purely I follow the entire doctrine, I need to continue studying the exact tenets before I say that I most assuredly am. I'd rather not claim to be to those who know the differences better than myself if I am not.

Through all of this it has been my natural inclination to learn about this philosophy and live as selfishly as possible. I definitely use to misunderstand this issue of born vs. made. I didn't start fully living by this ideology- I had to change over time as I became increasingly aware of my own nature.

Misdirection and manipulation are two skills I've definitely developed with practice. Maybe some of the confusion with this topic comes from an issue separate from being born vs. made; Satanists also develop and hone their skills over time. One is born a Satanist but becomes better at it through the continued use of their natural abilities. This might be why some feel that Satanists are made; they are born but make themselves better.
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#89244 - 06/10/14 10:01 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: NightmareMachine]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Current scientific research has provided mountains of evidence on the influence of DNA on such things as personality, addictions and such. But to say that one is hardwired for such things is taking it a step too far in my opinion.

I think your DNA gives a predilection toward certain behaviors and traits, but does not lock them into such.


Just out of curiosity, care to shovel a bit of that my way? I mean, if it's a Mountain - pretty sure there's plenty you could provide in verified research right?

Lay it on me Brother.
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#89481 - 06/13/14 03:50 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: SIN3]
Doomsage680 Offline
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"A Twin Study of Non-Alcohol Substance Abuse"
http://psych.colorado.edu/~carey/reprintPDFs/pdfs/gynther_substanceAbuse.pdf

"genetically determined differences in ethanol metabolism may be important. The oxidative metabolism of alcohol is catalyzed by alcohol and aldehyde dehydrogenase. Polymorphisms have been observed at two of the five loci encoding alcohol dehydrogenase subunits:"
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...enticated=false

"Neurobiological research points to the dispositional factor of monoaminergic dysfunction and indicates that neuroadaptation and sensitization may play a role in the maintenance of addictive behaviour."
http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/1/10.full

Then there's some general predispositions to being susceptible to alcohol-related conditions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...enticated=false

I agree that these predispositions do not guarantee any behavior or abuse, nor does the behavior take control over the individual's actions. These predispositions simply make it harder to resist addiction and make relapse more likely.

Researching addiction is a small hobby of mine since I've had some past experience with these maladaptive behaviors. I disagree with AA- I don't think it's a disease. I think it's a condition brought on by repeated unhealthy behaviors (conditioning) which make changing very difficult. However, I do not think change is impossible at all, as I have seen others and myself overcome what was at first incredibly challenging. It is quite interesting to me that some people go through college drinking indistinguishably from an alcoholic and then quit as soon as they graduate and return to drinking like normal people while others continue their bad habits at the expense of their families, careers, and even legal freedom.

There's plenty more research but I think that should probably be a good start.
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#89488 - 06/13/14 10:11 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Doomsage680]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
I think it's a condition brought on by repeated unhealthy behaviors (conditioning) which make changing very difficult.


Bingo. Behavioral.

I've seen this research. The same could be said about the percentage of people that have poor digestive systems and love cake.
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#89502 - 06/13/14 12:05 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: LoneWolf78]
Gladius Deus Ex Offline
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 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78


I do not think that Anton LaVey was being ridiculous at all when he made that remark.

You are born who you are. At early development society is out to condition you, it does not mean that you will adhere to the conditioning. The rebellious teenager comes to mind.

Likewise, there are people who in no way were born into a culture that shaped what they did. Fakir Musafar certainly did not grow up in an environment with people poking holes in themselves and modifying their bodies.

At some points, it may be beneficial to conform, jobs, parents, or in some cases a spouse. No less, at the end of the day, your true nature wills out and you cannot run from what you are.

Unless you are young enough to have parents involved in Saranism or the occult, I do not think that most people came to TSB with a prior socially conditioning towards Satanism. Those that I have encountered, including myself can't really give you a past history of Satanism. All that I can do is tell you that I read the book and realized that it more or less described me.

By accepting yourself as a Satanist, it is not an easy road at all. We do not have any lobby groups and good luck in finding a non Satanist to come to our defense. Unlike other groups of people that have these kinds of groups, a Satanist can holler discrimination all that he wants and will likely here an echo. So we must be fiercely independent.

I say this to illustrate that while some youngsters may do it for shock value, those who stay with it for years, the true Satanists, do so because to do otherwise would foolishly deny ourselves.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. Even in my youth (I'm not talking about teenage years or even pre-teen) I was defiant. My parents tried their hardest to raise me as a "good Catholic" boy but that never went anywhere. I even went to CCD but it never "stuck" in fact, they threatened my parents constantly about kicking me out. As a child in kindergarten I convinced the other kids in the class that I was a "werewolf" and manipulated them into giving me all their toys. I got in quite a bit of trouble for this when it came out but it shows even as a kid I knew how to get what I wanted from my peers.

I was defiant but not without cause. My parents believed I suffered from some anti-personality disorder but I did have friends. Not only did I have friends but some of my teachers believed me to be a saint whereas other teachers couldn't stand me. Even as a kid I believed that some people deserved respect while others didn't deserve any.

They had issues disciplining me because I didn't fear pain as I knew it was only temporary and I didn't mind too much with them taking away my things. I believe I was born with a "Satanic" outlook because I can't put together where I picked it up from society at the time and I certainly didn't get it from my parents. Like Lonewolf, I read TSB and felt that the book described me to the core.

So I do believe with the statement that Satanists are born not made.


Edited by Gladius Deus Ex (06/13/14 12:11 PM)

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#89843 - 06/23/14 05:19 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Gladius Deus Ex]
Galerius Offline
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I was recently reading about feral children and their conditioning (or lack of), and how this might apply to the "born not made "idea.

https://sites.google.com/site/nurtureconditionalresponse/nature-vs-nurture/home/ferell-children. "Feral children were evidence of how influence from your surrounding, affected your life style."

I've always felt that I was born a satanist as, after reading TSB, I Couldn't recall a time in my earlier years that I didn't think that way. On the other hand, it is possible that certain social conditioning and events that may have happened prior to me turning 5 or 6, may be buried in my sub conscious and still shaping my perception regardless of what I've learned since.

See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period. (i know, its Wiki)

Does it all come down to nature vs. nurture? What percentage of each ingredient does it take to bake a devils food cake ;-) , and how long do you cook it?

Anyways, I would dare to say satanists are born AND made, dependant on a natural disposition and certain unknown nurturing aspects prior to the end of the critical period.

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#89844 - 06/23/14 05:29 AM Re: Born Not Made [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Galerius Offline
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Sorry, that wasn't a reply to anything in Gladius' post
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#89862 - 06/23/14 12:07 PM Re: Born Not Made [Re: Galerius]
SIN3 Offline
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THIS topic ties in. I mention Feral Children in post #89745.

 Quote:
Does it all come down to nature vs. nurture? What percentage of each ingredient does it take to bake a devils food cake ;-) , and how long do you cook it?


For example, are innate behaviors such as holding opposing views, or being insubordinate to person's in positions of authority enough to call it a 'born' Satanic quality? We might just call this human nature. Some argue that every single person on the planet is by proxy a Satanist because of these 'born' qualities.

Others argue in favor of genetic inheritance (a specific cocktail of genes) to make that 'nurture' i.e. environmental factors produce a specific outcome (i.e. Satanist).

I'd say Feral kids just remind us of our base nature. Ties in also to "Man is just another Animal...", which also happens to be an active topic.

Thoughts on these topics?
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