If you want man. I raise my glass to naecunt, unless I know them personally. And when it comes to Lavey, I dunno. There's two sides to every story, and while I would like to believe he wasn't a charleton and a cunt...he certainly mistreated that poor lion! Anyway, it makes no difference to me. It was what he wrote, not him, that made the difference.
I think his ideas are influenced by the famous Lavey-debunk sheet that appeared some years ago. I'm not a big adorer of Lavey, as might be known, but I do think it is foolish to now act as if he was a notorious animal abuser. Both information, that he was an animal-Gandhi to an animal-Kahn are not verifiable unless one actually knew the guy or has sources that are 'above' suspicion.
I don't think he differed much from other people at those aspects. Most of us like animals but it doesn't stop up from at times kicking them in the balls when there is a sufficient reason.
About everyone that stands in the spotlight will have people that prefer and dislike them. It's the same in Satanism as in other aspects of life, maybe even worse in Satanism.
I have my ideas about Lavey as much as I have my ideas about everything but the debunk sheet didn't make too much difference in it. If you live long enough, there will be plenty of facts that can be picked out to make you look like a fool, villain or hero. Look at reality-shows, some clever editing presents a reality preferred instead as is.
I once had a dog that was a quite funny thing. Good dog and such but when I let him out in the evening, he simply refused to come in and sat there looking at you, too obviously mocking you. Luring him in with food, sweet words or whatever didn't work at all, so there was only one ultimate solution; beat him with a fucking stick. You see, sometimes violence is the only thing that either triggers the correct response or respect. Pick that highlight out of my life, without the correct circumstances and I'm a cruel person when it comes to animals. If I tomorrow throw myself in front of a car to save a little birdie from sudden death, I am a new martyr poster boy for PETA, even if I had pork for dinner.
All you are presented is a little fact out of decades of living and we aren't even sure if it is true, and if, what the circumstances were. And still people use that fact to completely base their opinion upon, kindly behaving as was intended with the debunk sheet. I think the only proper response is: so what? It was a triviality, not as if he had some secret terror chamber in which he mutilated chickens and sodomized dogs. So why blow it out of proportion and dislike the guy for it, if that's the only part?
While Togare was long gone before I became an Administrator at the Church, I have seen LaVey interact with a lot of animals, from the pet rat Basil Ratbone, to Klaxon, the Abyssinian cat, to Bathory, the German Sheppard. Not once did I ever see him act with anything but kindness to them... leopards don't change their spots. If a person is cruel to one animal under their control, you can expect them to be cruel to others as well.
The most violent thing I ever saw was him telling Klaxon to "Get you ass off of my music" when the cat was sitting on a stack of sheet music that was on the table next to the keyboards.
This is just another thing where people see something on the web and assume that since it's on the web, it HAS to be true. Ignorance thrives in such an atmosphere, also as evidenced on the web.
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.
I believe that LaVey was of the mindset that innocents should be excluded from any games a Satanist would play. He was big on an "eye for an eye"-style retribution. Kids and animals just don't figure in to this equation. I just can't see him as anything other than someone who respected animals, no matter what their size.
And the fact that the debunk page was composed of information by a chick that said her father died because she threw a curse on him should at least make one think twice when absorbing the information. Is it true? I personally think it is a clever piece of mixing the partly true with the partly false.
The page probably served a purpose. I'm not sure but my first idea would be it is composed during -what I call- the great satanic battles, as an attempt to disillusion people. It's a bit like in politics: "Oh look Bill got a blowjob, he must be so bad and politically incapable, come to us now."
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Jake999
While Togare was long gone before I became an Administrator at the Church, I have seen LaVey interact with a lot of animals, from the pet rat Basil Ratbone, to Klaxon, the Abyssinian cat, to Bathory, the German Sheppard. Not once did I ever see him act with anything but kindness to them...
This is my experience as well. In my many visits to 6114, I never saw Anton act other than kindly towards the resident critters; just as significantly none of them cringed around or avoided him. During his many stays at my homes in Louisville and Santa Barbara, he was also very smoochy with my Irish setter Brandy, who doted on him.
In fairness I should add that when Zeena discussed Anton's animal mistreatment with me, she became extremely upset, and it seemed genuine to me. Indeed that was the topic concerning Anton that clearly stressed her the most.
Togare is another question-mark. Edward Webber told me that it was because of his report to the SF Animal Care & Control office concerning Anton's treatment of him that Anton was forced to give Togare to the SF Zoo. Apparently he was unmanageable there, because he was then sent to Tippi Hedren's Shambala sanctuary in southern California, where she wrote of him in her memoirs that he had been badly treated by Anton, but had finally settled down in Shambala and sired a number of cubs.
While I personally have never had the opportunity to meet either Anton or Zeena, thus having no firsthand experience with him as you and Jake have, the issue with Togare might be as simple as this: Take an animal away from its home of x-amount of years, where it was fed, treated well, and had established its "territory", and it will "act out" at whatever new place its taken to. Take a family pet, like a dog, to the pound, and it will be either scared shitless or extremely aggressive--exhibiting qualities that it had probably never shown around its previous owner. I'm sure that was the case with Togare, however with animals' memories being short-lived (or at least in most animals), Togare's memory of Anton faded and he was able to live out his life as a "normal" kitty.
I could definitely see where dropping a home-raised lion into a zoo setting could certainly be the cause of a lot of adjustment problems. It's about like taking a coddled civilian teen and dropping him into a military environment and saying, "Here's your new home. Be happy." That doesn't happen over night, sand sometimes not at all.
And let's get a small dose of reality. Dr. LaVey was no small man. But if a fully grown lion was determined to take him down, as much as I admired him, my money would be on Togare. The whips you see lion tamers use make for great theater, but if a lion gets out of line, you have two choices. You can crack him on the nose and hope he gets the message, or you cover your ass with BBQ sauce and say, "Bon Appetite!"
Jack Hanna, director emeritus of the Columbus Zoo and Aquarium in Ohio, once stressed that you can train a wild animal, but you can never tame a wild animal. And famed lion tamer Gunther Gebel-Williams used to say that a wild animal is like a loaded gun -- it can go off at any time.
If you saw the documentary film Speak of the Devil produced by Nick Bougas, you were treated to footage of KTVU (San Francisco TV station) children's program The Brother Buzz Show, with Anton LaVey and his pet lion Togare visiting a super market, in the 60s. A lion as a cub might well be happy-go-lucky, and be easy to call cute and a media attraction, but take it to puberty, and deprive it of an outlet for its aggressions and it's a pretty good bet that something, somewhere has to give.
Did Zeena see one of those times? Who knows, and who knows what colored her perception of any incident as a young child? Being that she was born in 1963, and Togare was sent to the San Francisco Zoo in about 1974, if memory serves.
Was having a fully grown lion in the Black House a WISE choice? Hindsight being 20/20, probably not. But as I said, spots don't change with a cruel streak, be it towards animals or other people. Hell, he got pissed at me several times, and not once did he resort to a cattle prod.
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
Loc: los angeles
sometimes a dog gets into garbage and you raise your voice at it. I highly doubt anything more malicious than that ever went on.
a man simply does not make a fully grown jungle cat into an enemy and still share his house with it. end of argument.
a smallish 50 pound north american puma can do serious damage when cornered. in fact, I wont even give my little 15 pound bengal a bath for fear of losing my eyes! heres a cool video from a big cat sanctuary. they have a bunch of them, showing potential mankillers living with the family.