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#2388 - 11/28/07 07:31 PM Communist = Evil?!
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Now, before people start debating whether communism is a viable political method or anything along those lines that's not what I want to discuss. What I wanted to talk about is who was the bright spark who decided to make Communism mean "Evil" in the US. For some reason people in the United States seem to have got it into there heads that a governmental method that makes every person equal, removes the class barrier and reduces discrimination, as well as finally ending the poverty crisis the world has is somehow a bad thing.

Now yeah sure, Communism isn't perfect, and in a large country it's unlikely to ever world properly. But why has it become a world to mean "Evil Unchristian Shit". I'm not kidding. I've seen it referred to as both Evil and Unchristian on the net.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#2406 - 11/29/07 06:53 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Because no one profits from communism, and the Church can't be having any of that nonsense. Not to mention the structure of the Church is based on hierarchy. Perhaps because it's the antithesis of our current capitalistic society (that we consider "good") is the reason people in the West consider communism to be "evil".
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Nothing is sacred.

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#2458 - 11/30/07 10:32 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
MCSA TEK Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 97
Loc: Orlando Fl USA
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Now, before people start debating whether communism is a viable political method or anything along those lines that's not what I want to discuss. What I wanted to talk about is who was the bright spark who decided to make Communism mean "Evil" in the US. For some reason people in the United States seem to have got it into there heads that a governmental method that makes every person equal, removes the class barrier and reduces discrimination, as well as finally ending the poverty crisis the world has is somehow a bad thing.

Now yeah sure, Communism isn't perfect, and in a large country it's unlikely to ever world properly. But why has it become a world to mean "Evil Unchristian Shit". I'm not kidding. I've seen it referred to as both Evil and Unchristian on the net.


Americans don't handle direct control very well, but we eat up brainwashing and propaganda like it was candy. It isn't business that made communism evil. Its simple and precise propaganda. Look at how the controlled media depicts Muslims or gun owners. Neither is depicted in a positive light on film. specific messages told with extreme repetition over months and years fosters whatever party line the controller requires.

Communism has been depicted as an evil force since the 1950's and its followers ignorant suppressed cult members. Fifty plus years of that type of brainwashing is responsible for the outlook that puzzles you so much.

Chris
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#2529 - 12/04/07 12:53 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
You don't want to talk about communism, just communism's reputation?

You don't think the two have any connection? Practical results of so-called communist regimes aside, even on a theoretical level communism is "evil".

Granted, most individuals today who would tack the label of "evil" onto communism most likely haven't read Marx or any of his successors (PS. have you?).

However, I would reckon that the gnarly "evil" label was possibly the work of the Old Right conservatives (a la Barry Goldwater)in the United States (and the Austrian School theorists in Europe before them); those individuals who had been battling communism on the theoretical plane since its conception.

Personally, though, I've got it in my head that a
 Quote:
governmental method that makes every person equal, removes the class barrier and reduces discrimination, as well as finally ending the poverty crisis the world has
is actually a bad thing...have I (and most self-proclaimed Satanists, for that matter) been bamboozled by evangelists?

I'm not sure if there are truly any theological reasons for calling communism "unChristian", although absolution of responsibility for sin (i.e. free will as part of the Christian paradigm) might have something to do with it. In any case, you'll find that even before the rise of the religious right in the US most small-gov't conservatives also happened to be Christian; if we consider this overlapping of ideologies, it's no surprise that a "religiocentric" label like "evil" would be slapped onto communism in a heart beat.

To claim a total lack of comprehension on the part of the anti-communists, however, would be an overstatement.

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#2545 - 12/04/07 02:45 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: ballbreaker]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
 Quote:
Americans don't handle direct control very well, but we eat up brainwashing and propaganda like it was candy. It isn't business that made communism evil. Its simple and precise propaganda.Look at how the controlled media depicts Muslims or gun owners.


the form of communism can be taken back to Plato well to some degree.

i hope thats a joke, if i'm understanding it right. I don't see it that way at all, people will generally see what they want to see. Russia failed, china ( is turning slightly more open minded) and is still standing, cuba is poor and living in the 1950's. would you call that simply propaganda? Idea's are great but realty are much different. the most bad i here about extremist Muslims is there giving good Muslims a bad name, and gun owner is gun control.

communism is a nice idea, just like Socialism, but there not realistic. look at Venezuela, Hugo Chávez trying to turn the government communist but fail in the somewhat in the resent vote. would you consider that just, propaganda? I think the most of the people know it will not work, simply because it not realistic.

as for Americans, there busy living there lives. like the rest of the world, for the most they're busy trying to stay alive, and feed themselves and there families, keep a roof over there head. They go out and have fun simply because, animals can only work so much. i don't think people are getting brainwashing more like mislead, propaganda come in many ways, what make anyone think there not reading propaganda at any certain moment.

as for " Evil and Unchristian" there scary words, to do just that, to scare the uneducated masses.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#2546 - 12/04/07 02:59 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: blackdragon31560]
undeadridinghood Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Washington State
Anti communist propaganda was more of a thing for the 50s and 60s. Now we no longer need the propaganda to show us that the countries that have communist governments fail miserably. I used to be a commie lover, the kind of person who simpathized with socialists and wished that we could overthrow the government or something. Now I don't care. I think our government is screwed up, but that communism isn't the answer. I still don't understand ballbreaker's point that communism is evil, despite the propaganda. I would like him to explain that more. Perhaps communism is realistic for small communities, tiny isolated places where trade and teamwork is more reasonable than money and giving power to a few people would harm the others. We don't live in a world where we can have that sort of commune. We have the internet and the global community, which is far too big for any communist government to handle.
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#2548 - 12/04/07 06:27 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: blackdragon31560]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I have no idea whether you're actually responding to something I've said or if you are simply replying to HVAC and have clicked the wrong names along the way.

 Quote:
communism is a nice idea, just like Socialism, but there not realistic.


Communism is not a nice idea; when you concede even the ideal to the Marxists you will have the phenomenon of "creeping socialism".

"Well yes, Neil, communism has noble and admirable goals, but I'm just not ready for the dictatorship of the proletariat"

"OK Bob, but if egalitarianism is desirable in the realm of ideas we could at least start by instituting a minimum wage, and maybe social security..."

"I suppose so...and now that I think about it...we could have welfare packages, state-sponsored housing projects, gun registries..."

"Right, and socialized medicine, and and and..."

Get the drift? I don't suspect we'll have black helicopters and forced labor camps any time in the near future, but the fact that so many of us cherish equality as a dream worthy of coming true simply means that government action in the name of this dream will enjoy popular moral support.

 Quote:
look at Venezuela, Hugo Chávez trying to turn the government communist but fail in the somewhat in the resent vote. would you consider that just, propaganda?


Chavez's referendum was with regards to a constitutional change that would allow him to run indefinitely for office, not "make the country commie". Chavez enjoys popular support in Venezuela and for all intents and purposes has done nothing illegal since being given a mandate from the majority of the Venezuelan people (none of this exempts him from being an all around dirtbag, though).

I think that an important question worth asking is whether Chavez's left-wing domestic policies are legitimate solely on account of the support he enjoys within his country; is 50+1 indeed a magical number that equates to moral legitimacy or authority?

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#2550 - 12/04/07 08:10 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: ballbreaker]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
lol i used the quick reply

as for Hugo Chávez, i think saying hi to fidel castro, before letting the people know of the lose by the votes, dressing in red, is huge hint, i think if it would have passed, he would use that to push farther, i'm not going by what wikipedia, but his actions and reasoning. true, i think misused the word, but i think he would fall under a socialist not a communist but at the same time one could say communism is simply a version of socialism.

"creeping socialism" i haven't heard the term in a long time, but at the same time how can one country call it's self a republic (Like the US) without socialism or communism already being part of it. Those idea's are already being part of people's thinking.

 Quote:
I don't suspect we'll have black helicopters and forced labor camps any time in the near future,


well it could be said we already do just not in the US, black helicopters, black ops, CIA etc. forced labor camps well simply because there not here in US doesn't me we don't have any, chance are the clothing your using came from one. Some would say hat a sweat shop, well those people have 2 choses, work or strive in most cases, is that not forced labor?

"I suppose so...and now that I think about it...we could have welfare packages, state-sponsored housing projects, gun registries..."

funny we do, i get your point, but by my reasoning is communism, socialism, a Republic, Autocracy, Democracy, on and on, all come from human thought for order and control. They all share similar aspects for the most part, to simply say evil or not a good idea, would be to me saying if anything that shares the aspect is evil and no a good idea, but you do bring up good points.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#2563 - 12/05/07 02:14 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: blackdragon31560]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
i think he would fall under a socialist not a communist but at the same time one could say communism is simply a version of socialism


Of course he would, but you use these two -isms very superfluously. Have you ever read Marx, or are you dependent on propaganda too?

 Quote:
how can one country call it's self a republic (Like the US) without socialism or communism already being part of it. Those idea's are already being part of people's thinking.


Unless you mean to say that limited, constitutional government only differs in degree from totalitarianism, then I suppose what you're saying makes sense.

However, I don't know what the heck you're trying to say; could you elaborate?

 Quote:
Some would say hat a sweat shop, well those people have 2 choses, work or strive in most cases, is that not forced labor?


Sometimes it literally is, but most cases of sweatshops involve voluntary, contractual labor. Is your point that working in a sweatshop is forced labor because the likely alternative is extreme poverty or subsistence farming?

 Quote:
but by my reasoning is communism, socialism, a Republic, Autocracy, Democracy, on and on, all come from human thought for order and control.


Of course structure, hierarchy, various forms of authority, etc. meet evolutionary needs, but this does not tell us whether these things are moral so to speak.

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#2564 - 12/05/07 02:34 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: undeadridinghood]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
I still don't understand ballbreaker's point that communism is evil, despite the propaganda. I would like him to explain that more.


Well by "evil" I simply mean "wrong"; well, very wrong, I suppose...so wrong I have no trouble juggling semantics and dropping the E-bomb on communism.

If a group of hippies (or respectable revolutionaries in long coats and furry hats) want to form a commune and agree to abolish money and own the "means of production" in common, then no one should stop them from doing this. If all the workers of the world come together, buy out the stock market, and as new majority shareholders in companies x, y, and z decide to transform the corporate hierarchy into a worker cooperative, then no one should stop them from doing this.

If a communist, or a group of communists, rightly acquires property in something then they can dispose of this property however they like.

Now, some communists do do this, though it's mostly greens who want to open up their own organic food cooperative (good for them, I say, displaying the spirit of entrepreneurship!).

However, most communists are by definition Marxists; since the pre-Marx socialist thinkers were famously denounced by Marx himself(and Engels, I suppose) as being petty-bourgeois they have fallen into disrepute in the eyes of virtually all socialists. Now, Marx was convinced that he was not "petty-bourgeois", which basically meant that he wasn't about to work within "the system".

What system? Well, the "capitalist" system, which Marx defines as being akin to all previous modes of production by virtue of carrying on a dialectical class struggle; capitalists (the ruling class) monopolized the "means of production" and engaged in "exploitation" by "alienating" workers, the true producers of "value", from their own labour.

Since capitalists have monopolized the means of production workers are forced to sell their labour-power (or their ability to work, in other words) to the capitalist; ultimately, it is labour-power that gives value to a commodity, since Marx was (like most economists of his time) an adherent to the "labour theory of value". The LTV holds that a commodity only has as much value as the labour put into it; said theory has since been discredited by Austrian "subjectivism"...i.e. consumer sovereignty.

Anyways, if we take the LTV as a given then the process of profit accumulation involves the worker giving up X hours of their time, putting forth Y energy, and producing Z commodity. The capitalist, who is bad bad bad for contributing nothing to the equation (here is where National Socialism derives its socialistic notion of the banker and investor as parasite) is effectively exploiting the worker; this is because while the worker is only paid X for his time and energy, the capitalist has in fact drawn X+1 labour from the worker (i.e. PROFIT).

The Worker cannot enjoy the full value of his labour-power because he does not own the means of production; by virtue of owning the means of production the capitalist class effectively has leverage over the working class.

Now, in keeping with Marx's dialectical materialist interpretation of history, society is posited on its economic mode of production and only changes when a crisis point is reached between the ruling and producing classes. Inevitably capitalism will come into crisis, like all preceding modes of production, and there will be a kind of revolution.

HOWEVER the end result of this system crisis will be unique; it will essentially constitute the Hegelian, so-called "end of history". Why? Well, because the workers will own the means of production communally, and everyone will effectively become a worker. Sheesh, this last bit is obviously a bit more philosophically dense but I'm not writing an introduction to Marxism, read Capital or pick up a copy of his Selected Writings.

Ok, so what's wrong with all this? Well to most Satanists worth their stripes there should be some intuitive repulsion, but I will spell it all out in moral terms.

HOWEVER: this response is long enough, and I will write the moral critique separately, soon.

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#2565 - 12/05/07 03:14 AM Communism - Anti-Christian? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
But why has it become a world to mean "Evil Unchristian Shit". I'm not kidding. I've seen it referred to as both Evil and Unchristian on the net.


Communism shares the ideal of equality of much of Christianity. Both are based on an ethic of altruism.

So, is communism anti-Christian in principle (beyond the money-grabbing reality of the Church)?
In some ways, yes.
Communism involves a faith in humanity as the future creators of its utopian dream of Heaven on Earth.
Christianity sees man as sinful and flawed and thus incapable of building any kind of ideal society, at least without God's intervention - usually in an apocalyptic sense.

So in the sense that communism is Atheist and based on a belief in the progress of mankind without a God intervening, it is certainly at odds with orthodox Christian belief.

However, there have been thinkers, such as the LSE's John Gray, who have argued that Western secular ideologies, from communism to the ideal of global democratic capitalism, are all bastardised versions of Christian eschatology.
Substituting an ideal 'end of history' for the Second Coming of Christ, and an irrational belief in progress as an emotional substitute for the Christian faith in immortality.
Under the self-deceitful pretense of having left such religious superstition behind...

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#2566 - 12/05/07 03:18 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: ballbreaker]
undeadridinghood Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Washington State
It's been a long time since I read Marx. All I remember was his beautiful writing style... of course, that could all be in the hands of the translator.
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#2575 - 12/05/07 02:32 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: undeadridinghood]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Sorry I've been away for a few days.

In answer to one question, yes I have read Marx and I find it to be quite an eye-opener.

I can see that the basic human flaws are the reason communism doesn't work. People are greedy. Now greed is something I can't fathom. Ambition and drive are good. Wanting something even to excess if fine as well. Greed however, wanting more just because it's there is an irrational and pointless thing. People seem to want more power, money etc. for no good reason. If communism existed and worked, where everyone was equal, you undoubtedly get two people who mess it up. The lazy guy who doesn't want to do his part or the greedy guy who wants more for doing his part.

I would be happy to have my house, my electricity, gas and water bills, emergency services, education, phone/TV/internet, public transport and some things like swimming pools/gyms which are currently considered luxuries. Hell, if I had 75% of my wages taken and the only things I needed to buy myself was food and entertainment/hobbies then I would love that. That's what I see as communism. A way in which money is not all important. The government organizes everything as the population need it. If you don't have a job the government find you one... first based on your wants, then based on your skills/qualifications and finally based on community needs. Not everyone will be perfectly happy with this set up but hell, you can always get other qualifications as education would be free. It's the best method I can see... the problem is I can see certain powerful people like celebrities and politicians not liking the idea as it makes it so they get less cash. The conservative vote would also go as they are often in high paying jobs.

Now. What I'm thinking is. How is this evil? I can't see this being a bad thing. Everyone had a place and purpose in the society. Everyone has the dignity of working. No-one needs to worry about rent, rates, insurance or anything like that. The only things people would pay for are luxury items and food, and the government could subsidize food as well. Think about it. I was earning ~£900 per month. I would be willing to give up £675 of that (leaving me £125) why? because I would never need to worry about anything. I would have enough money to do whatever I wanted because I can spend everything in my account now. I was on a low end wage. I could see the average job paying a lot more.

What if everyone working full time was given £500 ($1000 USA) per month regardless of the job they do. Half (£250) for part timers, disabled and students (meaning a student with a part time job or someone disabled with a part time job gets the full amount). £150 for the unemployed with laws that state you must work if we find you a job your capable of doing. This would mean everyone has money for food and luxuries based on what they provide the community and everything else is provided for them. I think this would solve a lot of the problems in todays society.

What do people think?
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#2579 - 12/05/07 07:44 PM Communist = Evil. [Re: TornadoCreator]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Now when you say you've read Marx, do you mean you've really read Marx or you've just gone through the Communist Manifesto like every John Doe and his mother?

In any case, now's as good a time as any other to get into a critique of Karl Marx and even New Left socialism, on account of your explicit endorsement of it.

Your first few notes on human nature are interesting...but if you had really read and understood Marx, you'd say with the confidence of a true communist that there is no such thing as human nature.

As far as Marxism goes, you've implicitly taken one great step towards confessing that men are not, indeed, ants and that life on the ant hill is not suitable for a human being.

 Quote:
Hell, if I had 75% of my wages taken and the only things I needed to buy myself was food and entertainment/hobbies then I would love that. That's what I see as communism.


So why don't you form a cooperative with all of the other communists and do this? Like I said earlier: if any communist wants to enter into voluntary arrangements with any other communist, then go for it...no one should prevent you from doing this. But there is a problem when you believe that communism as an abstract good is higher than any individual's personal good.

Besides your aesthetic pleasure in seeing everyone living merrily under a redistributive government, what right do you have to this infringement of my liberty?

The alternatives to each individual's natural right to self-ownership (and consequently the right to do with my body and mind what I please) is either communal ownership (in which case you and I own 1/6 billionths of each other) or class ownership, by which I mean some group of people lays claim to part of my person (which is exactly what you would have under communism; the class of planners as seen in the Soviet Union, or the natural leaders as seen in all other brands of attempted socialism).

The idea that some class or group of people can lay claim to me necessarily implies that I am somehow less than human, unless I should happen to ask some person or persons to make decisions in lieu of my thinking brain.

The idea that we all own one another in equal share implies that either consensus or majority rule dictates our action, in which case we all starve very quickly; regardless of the practical outcomes of such an idea, the idea in and of itself is logically absurd.

 Quote:
Hell, if I had 75% of my wages taken and the only things I needed to buy myself was food and entertainment/hobbies then I would love that. That's what I see as communism. A way in which money is not all important. The government organizes everything as the population need it.


For most people money is not actually an end unto itself, it simply represents security in the broadest sense; that cash in your pocket actually means freedom, the freedom to transform that gold or silver (or, for most of us, fiat paper) into something you need or want, which is something only you have the moral authority to decide for yourself.

Despite the fact that, objectively speaking, we all literally need some bare minimum of food and water intake, there is actually no such thing as a so-called human right to water or food (or health care, for that matter). A right to water implies that someone has an obligation to provide it to you, as a right to health care implies that some class of people literally ought to provide for your medical needs by force if necessary. Logically speaking, a right to any such thing as water, food, healthcare, etc. is as silly as saying that you and I have a right to chauffeurs or radios.

We do not.

The only right you possess is the fundamental human right to 100% self-ownership, and consequently the right to ownership of your labour and the right to sell it under contract; ultimately, your right to property in yourself and in things. From this basic right naturally stems your right to freedom of conscience, speech, whatever.

Communism denies this fundamental human right by forcibly confiscating the fruits of your labour, your property, the extension of your self. Communism consequently denies, theoretically and practically, your right to all the other things that naturally flow from your natural right to yourself.

Now, Marx sees communism as more than just a jumble of value-judgments, bur rather a historical necessity; it is clear that the worker's paradise is not, indeed, the end result of dialectical class struggle, but a pipe dream. See Karl Popper on why Marxism is not a science, properly speaking.

-

Money. What's wrong with money? "Money" does not literally mean the greenback, or the peso, it simply is a means of common exchange; if we really like, rocks can be money, or chickens, or whatever we like...human fingers can be our form of currency, but it doesn't change a damned thing about the fact that money exists to make exchange simpler for all involved.

You have the option of not using money, and in a free society you have the option of being paid in whatever sort of commodity you like if your employer agrees to it; but why the fuck would you?

 Quote:
Now. What I'm thinking is. How is this evil? I can't see this being a bad thing. Everyone had a place and purpose in the society. Everyone has the dignity of working. No-one needs to worry about rent, rates, insurance or anything like that. The only things people would pay for are luxury items and food, and the government could subsidize food as well.


That is patent nonsense.

You pay for everything! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH

What you mean to say is that there is no market pricing system in communism...and in response to that, I must direct you to Exhibit A, the ENTIRE FUCKING 2ND WORLD THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR

Really, I normally hate using the Soviet Union in debates on communism, since most commuweasals whine about how the USSR and its satellites weren't "really" communist, but when it comes to the price system, I have no choice. Government intervention even in an industrialized capitalist (or quasi-capitalist) economy has impacts in the market.

 Quote:
Think about it. I was earning ~£900 per month. I would be willing to give up £675 of that (leaving me £125) why? because I would never need to worry about anything. I would have enough money to do whatever I wanted because I can spend everything in my account now. I was on a low end wage.


Oh, I see. So, you scrub toilets or suck cock for crack, and you get the same perks as a chief executive officer, or a university professor. Fascinating. Naturally, in an economy without a real price system, everyone would be starving in equality, but...right...the government is the only employer in the country. I need to direct you to the Soviet Union's corpse again.

Actually, truth be told boy, the best system from a utilitarian point of view is a market, not a planned economy. Not only has the long, hard dick of history given the slap to socialist planning, all contemporary evidence to the contrary is lacking. For this reason, economics is one of the only academic fields that has not been hijacked by postmodernists.

 Quote:
£150 for the unemployed with laws that state you must work if we find you a job your capable of doing. This would mean everyone has money for food and luxuries based on what they provide the community and everything else is provided for them.


What if I don't want to work?

Can I open my own business or sell my services to individuals?

Can I grow my own food, or will it be confiscated if I grow too much?

 Quote:
I think this would solve a lot of the problems in todays society.


A lot of so-called problems aren't problems for "society" but for individuals. And in keeping with the previously mentioned notion of rights and consequent obligations and responsibilities, no one has a natural obligation to any other except to acknowledge that person's right to self-ownership; this fundamental human right is inherently universal, whereby my right to self-ownership necessitates yours.

If you want to run a soup kitchen, house the poor in your basement, or get off whatever welfare you live on, then do it! But unless I give my consent, don't drag me into your personal view of the good!

 Quote:
What do people think?


I think Satanism and communism are incompatible. I think you need to read Rand, at the least, if you're going to keep calling yourself the S word (if you even do now, that is).

I think that if you want a taste of communism, there are plenty of places to go. Or, if you want it that bad at home, start telling workers across the country to save whatever they can so that they can buy out the stock market; if the so-called working class wanted to do so today, they could.

I wonder why they don't.

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#2580 - 12/05/07 08:49 PM Re: Communist = Evil. [Re: ballbreaker]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
My response is made to the entire thread, I just hit the "reply" to BB.

Communism is only a good idea to people who are in the low to middle-income tax bracket. They feel that if everyone was brought down to their level, they wouldn't be considered "poor" anymore. That is the whole of it. Since the majority of the world's population is poor, naturally those countries embrace socialistic goverments. China, North Korea, Cuba, the former USSR, a handful of African countries and half of Venezuela have a large population made up of farmers and small business owners who can barely scrape by on what profits they earn. The very idea that money made through the collective effort of the entire nation means that they won't have to work so hard to survive, is an appealing one.

Communism = collective laziness.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#2584 - 12/06/07 04:23 AM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
September26th Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 3
Loc: Midwestern United States
This thread brought to mind the Satanic Reds:
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/

There are at least a few interesting and thought provoking items there, but for me, anything much deeper than a superficial delving quickly makes them seem muddled, contradictory, and downright screwy. And at the risk of coming across as an idealist or romantic, one initial impression I came away with was, "Ugh -- why would anyone want to sully and demean something as lofty and incisive as Satanism by entwining it so thoroughly with something as lowly and repulsive as politics??".

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#2608 - 12/06/07 08:20 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I really wanted to give your post a good and proper 'analysis.' I really don't have that sort of time right now. However... I do want to address the core of the problem of Communism.

Communism and the group think of Marx fails, in all of it's forms, because it rejects human nature as the motivator of human activity. To wit:

 Quote:
What if everyone working full time was given £500 ($1000 USA) per month regardless of the job they do. Half (£250) for part timers, disabled and students (meaning a student with a part time job or someone disabled with a part time job gets the full amount). £150 for the unemployed with laws that state you must work if we find you a job your capable of doing. This would mean everyone has money for food and luxuries based on what they provide the community and everything else is provided for them. I think this would solve a lot of the problems in todays society.

What do people think?


And who says that your labor is worth even one red cent? Honestly, think about it. Why do people give you money? What to you give back to the person giving you money?

Perhaps I do more work than you. If I have a better work ethic and produce more goods and services shouldn't I get more money for it?

When the State controls the price of labor, the productive people have no incentive to produce. People only work just hard enough to keep up appearance. In the old East Bloc countries the workers had a saying "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." The reason the old USSR has stores with no goods, long lines, and tight rationing is because there was no economic incentive to work any harder then absolutely necessary. Even if you did a better job you would not make more money so why try?

Communism is the pipe dream of the lazy and incompetent.
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#3770 - 02/02/08 12:35 PM Re: Communist = Evil?! [Re: Fist]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
I really wanted to give your post a good and proper 'analysis.' I really don't have that sort of time right now. However... I do want to address the core of the problem of Communism.

Communism and the group think of Marx fails, in all of it's forms, because it rejects human nature as the motivator of human activity. To wit:

 Quote:
What if everyone working full time was given £500 ($1000 USA) per month regardless of the job they do. Half (£250) for part timers, disabled and students (meaning a student with a part time job or someone disabled with a part time job gets the full amount). £150 for the unemployed with laws that state you must work if we find you a job your capable of doing. This would mean everyone has money for food and luxuries based on what they provide the community and everything else is provided for them. I think this would solve a lot of the problems in todays society.

What do people think?


And who says that your labor is worth even one red cent? Honestly, think about it. Why do people give you money? What to you give back to the person giving you money?

Perhaps I do more work than you. If I have a better work ethic and produce more goods and services shouldn't I get more money for it?

When the State controls the price of labor, the productive people have no incentive to produce. People only work just hard enough to keep up appearance. In the old East Bloc countries the workers had a saying "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." The reason the old USSR has stores with no goods, long lines, and tight rationing is because there was no economic incentive to work any harder then absolutely necessary. Even if you did a better job you would not make more money so why try?

Communism is the pipe dream of the lazy and incompetent.


Damn Fist, we got lots in common.

Communism is a very beautiful concept, like world peace is, but it simply goes against human nature. Why the hell do I want to work my ass off for myself and some lazy bastard who doesn't work as hard as i do, especially if I have a family to feed? People are selfish. You can't go against human nature. even with all its teachings of Love and brotherhood mankind has used Christianity and Islam to slaughter and kill, exploit, and use. Communism was no different. Nothings changes but the name, the game is the same. Russian peasents worked their asses off while getting run over by the Tsar... some group of smooth talker came and made promises to these peasents... gained power, and the "people" end up in the same situation: working their asses off and getting run over by officials... they didn't like that any more so the adopted democracy... and the "Citizens" are still in the same shit hole: working their asses off to stay alive and getting run over by officials; except now they're also getting fucked up the ass by mobsters in official costume. Same shit in China.
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#3830 - 02/03/08 09:59 PM Re: Communist = Evil. [Re: Nemesis]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Here a question:

Does social nonconformity go against human nature?
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#3832 - 02/04/08 07:23 AM Re: Communist = Evil. [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Yes, I think it does to a certain extent.

The majority of people like to consider themselves as "individuals", separate from the whole, while maintaining a social network of friends, family and acquaintances that reinforces that instinctive need to herd. That's a normal and healthy thing for most of us.

It only starts to go against the grain of our nature when it's taken to extremes--isolating oneself from everyone will start to carve paths and ideas the brain wouldn't normally take/make on its own. In the end this only reinforces the individual's separation from others of its species, and you're left with that crazy "Man on the Mountain" type of person that will never be able to integrate into society or have so-called "normal" interactions with other humans.
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